Prometheus wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:49:08 GMT, Rick Cook

[snip]
In fact I am told that at least some shelties have
a tendency to nip (bite) at the heels of running children and it
has to be trained out of them.

Not concerned in this case. I've seen plenty of the herding instinct
in my dog, and it's all been benign. It's pretty funny to watch him
herding the cat around the house! He also does it with small
children, but only with gentle pushes from his muzzle.

My Sheltie herds only at mealtime - his mealtime and then I'm the sheep.
His previous owners taught him to get a ball when he wants to play and he
still does this with me, ditto for any child even looks his way. When I
have a group of people here at least one ball per person will be someplace
on the floor. No one taught him to herd the balls up and put them away.

Josie

Rick Cook wrote:

Peter De Smidt wrote:

Does anyone really think that a dog's genetics doesn't influence his
behavior, or that differn't breeds have, on average, different
behavioral traits?


Not nearly as much as you think, apparently. (We'll save the argument about
humans for a later time). However, start with this: An attack is a behavior,
not an instinct.

I've never said otherwise. Clearly, though, one can have an instinct to
attack that causes the actual behavior.

In dogs as in humans, behavior is plastic. Temperament,
which is the expression of genetically determined psychology (among other
things) notoriously varies widely among individuals of all breeds. How the
temperament is expressed can be, and is, routinely modified.

Yep. To a certain extent anyway. Try teaching a great Pyrenees not to
bark at "strange" noises.


Such a claim flies in the face of overwhelming
evidence,


In the case of aggressiveness it is in fact _supported_ by the evidence,
notably the dog bite statistics. As nearly as we can tell from the facts,
and despite the reputation to the contrary, dog breeds don't vary
significantly in biting behavior. And we know both from experience and
studies that dog behavior is quite straightforward to modify.

Well, we're having a little problem since we're not directly citing the
"evidence" or studies. I'm guilty of this as well. In our defense, this
isn't an academic journal, thank God! Are we talking about dog's biting
humans? Has the study taken into account the size of each of the
breeds? What data do we have on dog on dog aggression? I don't know the
answer to the latter, as I haven't found any good studies. The CDC,
however, thinks that there's a good enough case to put the pit bull on
the dangerous breeds list. To that I'll add the extensive experience
that I've had at dog parks. Others have chimed in on this as well. Our
anecdotal evidence is relevant if yours is.


such as, for instance, the various studies that analyze the
intelligence of different breeds. Yet such an unlikely claim must be
assumed by those who say that all doggie behavioral problems are caused
by bad training.


Major error there. The specific claim is that in at least the vast majority
of dogs, regardless of breed, adequate training and socialization will
produce a dog with acceptable behavior, including not attacking people or
other animals. That is a very different claim and one well-supported by the
facts and experience.


But that's not the major issue. The question is not whether most dogs
of a given breed can be made relatively safe, the question is are some
breds inherently more dangerous, whether to humans or to other dogs,
than others. The most recent statistics that I've seen indicate that pit
bulls killed twice as many people than any other breed during the time
span looked at. You say that's due to poor training. Why are these dogs
getting training significantly worse than rottweilers, dobermans...? In
my experience the character of a pit bull's attack on another dog is of
a different kind than that made by most other dogs. The pit bull has a
relentlessness that most dogs lack. Sure, some other terriers have a
similar disposition, but their size makes them easier to handle.

We probably should politely agree to disagree on this one. Although we
really aren't that far apart. We disagree on how much genetics affects
behavior, and the extent to which training can curb instincts. We also
disagree on whether medium to large dogs should always be walked on a
leash. More importantly, though, we agree on the need for proper
training (and treatment in general!) of any dog.

-Peter De Smidt

Peter De Smidt wrote:

Rick Cook wrote:

Peter De Smidt wrote:

Does anyone really think that a dog's genetics doesn't influence his
behavior, or that differn't breeds have, on average, different
behavioral traits?


Not nearly as much as you think, apparently. (We'll save the argument about
humans for a later time). However, start with this: An attack is a behavior,
not an instinct.

I've never said otherwise. Clearly, though, one can have an instinct to
attack that causes the actual behavior.

Hmm. In that case we seem to be having a violent agreement. My main point is that
any such instinct can be overridden by training and socialization so it is not a
factor in the inherent 'danger' of the breed. (Which is in essence what the
Alabama Supreme Court found.)



In dogs as in humans, behavior is plastic. Temperament,
which is the expression of genetically determined psychology (among other
things) notoriously varies widely among individuals of all breeds. How the
temperament is expressed can be, and is, routinely modified.

Yep. To a certain extent anyway. Try teaching a great Pyrenees not to
bark at "strange" noises.


Such a claim flies in the face of overwhelming
evidence,


In the case of aggressiveness it is in fact _supported_ by the evidence,
notably the dog bite statistics. As nearly as we can tell from the facts,
and despite the reputation to the contrary, dog breeds don't vary
significantly in biting behavior. And we know both from experience and
studies that dog behavior is quite straightforward to modify.

Well, we're having a little problem since we're not directly citing the
"evidence" or studies.

Someone posted the CDC statistics on dog bites by breed earlier. I'll have to look
through and find it. Meanwhile, take a look at the references I cited on
aggression in dogs.

I'm guilty of this as well. In our defense, this
isn't an academic journal, thank God! Are we talking about dog's biting
humans?

That's what we have the best numbers on, so that's been the focus, yes.

Has the study taken into account the size of each of the
breeds?

Size doesn't seem to matter in aggressiveness. Breed popularity is the major
determinant -- as in the more of breed X, the more likely you are to have bites by
breed X.

What data do we have on dog on dog aggression?

There have been quite a number of studies on dog aggression, both by breed and
from a behavioral point of view. The Kent County material I cited earlier
summarizes a lot of this, without giving references back to the original papers.

I don't know the
answer to the latter, as I haven't found any good studies. The CDC,
however, thinks that there's a good enough case to put the pit bull on
the dangerous breeds list. To that I'll add the extensive experience
that I've had at dog parks. Others have chimed in on this as well. Our
anecdotal evidence is relevant if yours is.


such as, for instance, the various studies that analyze the
intelligence of different breeds. Yet such an unlikely claim must be
assumed by those who say that all doggie behavioral problems are caused
by bad training.


Major error there. The specific claim is that in at least the vast majority
of dogs, regardless of breed, adequate training and socialization will
produce a dog with acceptable behavior, including not attacking people or
other animals. That is a very different claim and one well-supported by the
facts and experience.


But that's not the major issue.

For me it is exactly the issue. Remember I chimed on this thread because someone
claimed that pit bulls were urban assault weapons, inherently vicious, etc., etc.,
etc. If that's not the issue for you, we're talking somewhat at cross purposes.

The question is not whether most dogs
of a given breed can be made relatively safe, the question is are some
breds inherently more dangerous, whether to humans or to other dogs,
than others.

Okay, let's be specific here. Based on the evidence from the dog bite statistics,
as well as other evidence, I'd say that it is pretty clear that pit bulls are no
more likely to express _aggression_ than any other breed.

But there's a secondary issue involved in the concept of 'dangerous'. That is the
amount of damage the dog is likely to do if it does attack. There the evidence
pretty clearly indicates that a pit bull, rottweilers, etc. can do far more damage
than other breeds. However if the dog isn't likely to attack in the first place,
that almost never enters into it.

Keep in mind that only a tiny, tiny fraction of all dog bites result in fatality.
There are only about 10 to 20 dog bite deaths in the US each year, but there are
hundreds of thousands of dog bites. Considering the relative proportion of
fatalities to dog bites, I'd argue that the bite statistics are far more
important.

The most recent statistics that I've seen indicate that pit
bulls killed twice as many people than any other breed during the time
span looked at. You say that's due to poor training.

Well, no. What I said was that _attacks_ are due to poor training. The amount of
damage once an attack is made is quite a different matter. You would expect
strong, fast dogs to account for a disproportionate number of fatalities and
that's what you find.

Why are these dogs
getting training significantly worse than rottweilers, dobermans...? In
my experience the character of a pit bull's attack on another dog is of
a different kind than that made by most other dogs. The pit bull has a
relentlessness that most dogs lack.

This is quite true and it's one the reasons dogs like pit bulls, rottweilers, etc.
do more damage.

Sure, some other terriers have a
similar disposition, but their size makes them easier to handle.

This is generally true. However please note that this has no bearing on the dog's
aggressiveness.



We probably should politely agree to disagree on this one.

I think you're correct.

Although we
really aren't that far apart. We disagree on how much genetics affects
behavior, and the extent to which training can curb instincts. We also
disagree on whether medium to large dogs should always be walked on a
leash.

Peter, keep in mind what happens if your dog is involved in an incident while
walking unleashed. It doesn't matter who started it. If your Pyr is jumped by a
psycho Yorkie/toy poodle/whatever, we pretty well know who's going to get the
worst of the ensuing fight. And if your dog isn't on a leash when it happens,
you're going to be lucky to get off with just paying the other dog's vet bills.

There are excellent reasons for keeping your dog leashed in almost all
circumstances that have nothing to do with breed danger, obedience or anything of
the sort.

Responsible pit bull owners have to be especially sensitive to these nuances
because of the prejudice (deserved or not) against pit bulls. A pit bull involved
in a dog fight, no matter who started it, is all to often a dead pit bull once
Animal Control gets involved in the situation.

--RC


More importantly, though, we agree on the need for proper
training (and treatment in general!) of any dog.



-Peter De Smidt

firstjois wrote:

Prometheus wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:49:08 GMT, Rick Cook

[snip]
In fact I am told that at least some shelties have
a tendency to nip (bite) at the heels of running children and it
has to be trained out of them.

Not concerned in this case. I've seen plenty of the herding instinct
in my dog, and it's all been benign. It's pretty funny to watch him
herding the cat around the house! He also does it with small
children, but only with gentle pushes from his muzzle.

My Sheltie herds only at mealtime - his mealtime and then I'm the sheep.
His previous owners taught him to get a ball when he wants to play and he
still does this with me, ditto for any child even looks his way. When I
have a group of people here at least one ball per person will be someplace
on the floor. No one taught him to herd the balls up and put them away.

Josie

Have you ever seen a sheltie at a kid's soccer game? Hilarous.

--RC

Rick Cook wrote:
firstjois wrote:

Prometheus wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:49:08 GMT, Rick Cook

[snip]
In fact I am told that at least some shelties have
a tendency to nip (bite) at the heels of running children and it
has to be trained out of them.

Not concerned in this case. I've seen plenty of the herding
instinct in my dog, and it's all been benign. It's pretty funny
to watch him herding the cat around the house! He also does it
with small children, but only with gentle pushes from his muzzle.

My Sheltie herds only at mealtime - his mealtime and then I'm the
sheep. His previous owners taught him to get a ball when he wants
to play and he still does this with me, ditto for any child even
looks his way. When I have a group of people here at least one
ball per person will be someplace on the floor. No one taught him
to herd the balls up and put them away.

Josie

Have you ever seen a sheltie at a kid's soccer game? Hilarous.

--RC

LOL! Hadn't ever thought of that! Must be quite a sight to see, I'd have
to gag, muzzle, and hog tie this one to keep him out of the game. Probably
need to blindfold him, too, or he'd still manage to wiggle into the game.

Josie

"-linux_lad" wrote in message
...
J T wrote:

I was in the military (USMC) and we were trained to respond to attack
dogs like this:


1) If a dog is charging you, you will be bitten, so prepare for it. Do
not run and do not turn your back to the dog. Force your hand violently
into the dog's mouth as he opens it to bite you. Reach as deeply into
his throat as possible.

Well, even the Marines can get it wrong.
I delivered papers for more than a half dozen years as a kid,
was charged God only knows how many times but never
was bitten. Not that that boxer might not have had it in
mind but at that time I carrying a cast metal card punch
in my hand and I gave him a pretty good shot in the end
of the nose/mouth with it. Probably hurt him all most
as much as it scared me, danged thing was shoulder high
to my hip.
Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning
in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man
pose and growling back; damned funny watching a
German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction
to run the other way.

I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than
turning your back on them is run. That just triggers
every predator-prey instinct they have.

Rick Cook wrote in
:

Someone posted the CDC statistics on dog bites by breed earlier. I'll
have to look through and find it. Meanwhile, take a look at the
references I cited on aggression in dogs.



Me. It was death resulting from dog bites. They may have numbers on bites
that do not result in death, but on a casual search I did not see them.
Google ought to turn up the post with the cite.

firstjois wrote:

Rick Cook wrote:
firstjois wrote:

Prometheus wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:49:08 GMT, Rick Cook

[snip]
In fact I am told that at least some shelties have
a tendency to nip (bite) at the heels of running children and it
has to be trained out of them.

Not concerned in this case. I've seen plenty of the herding
instinct in my dog, and it's all been benign. It's pretty funny
to watch him herding the cat around the house! He also does it
with small children, but only with gentle pushes from his muzzle.

My Sheltie herds only at mealtime - his mealtime and then I'm the
sheep. His previous owners taught him to get a ball when he wants
to play and he still does this with me, ditto for any child even
looks his way. When I have a group of people here at least one
ball per person will be someplace on the floor. No one taught him
to herd the balls up and put them away.

Josie

Have you ever seen a sheltie at a kid's soccer game? Hilarous.

--RC

LOL! Hadn't ever thought of that! Must be quite a sight to see, I'd have
to gag, muzzle, and hog tie this one to keep him out of the game. Probably
need to blindfold him, too, or he'd still manage to wiggle into the game.

Josie

I had a friend who had a sheltie and two small kids who played soccer. It was
wonderful to behold. The dog was having a great time trying to herd both teams
and the ball. She was really upset when mom locked her in the car.

--RC

I think most of the problem is on the human side. Carnivores are dangerous
to each other, too, and have developed elaborate submission gestures as well
as aggressive gestures to get business transacted short of death. The
reason most bites are on kids is that they advance in spite of the warnings
the animals are giving.

"Rick Cook" wrote in message
...

Peter De Smidt wrote:

Rick Cook wrote:

Peter De Smidt wrote:

Does anyone really think that a dog's genetics doesn't influence his
behavior, or that differn't breeds have, on average, different
behavioral traits?


Not nearly as much as you think, apparently. (We'll save the argument
about
humans for a later time). However, start with this: An attack is a
behavior,
not an instinct.

I've never said otherwise. Clearly, though, one can have an instinct to
attack that causes the actual behavior.

Hmm. In that case we seem to be having a violent agreement. My main point
is that
any such instinct can be overridden by training and socialization so it is
not a
factor in the inherent 'danger' of the breed. (Which is in essence what
the
Alabama Supreme Court found.)

John Keeney wrote:


"-linux_lad" wrote in message
...
J T wrote:

I was in the military (USMC) and we were trained to respond to attack
dogs like this:


1) If a dog is charging you, you will be bitten, so prepare for it. Do
not run and do not turn your back to the dog. Force your hand violently
into the dog's mouth as he opens it to bite you. Reach as deeply into
his throat as possible.

Well, even the Marines can get it wrong.
I delivered papers for more than a half dozen years as a kid,
was charged God only knows how many times but never
was bitten. Not that that boxer might not have had it in
mind but at that time I carrying a cast metal card punch
in my hand and I gave him a pretty good shot in the end
of the nose/mouth with it. Probably hurt him all most
as much as it scared me, danged thing was shoulder high
to my hip.
Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning
in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man
pose and growling back; damned funny watching a
German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction
to run the other way.

I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than
turning your back on them is run. That just triggers
every predator-prey instinct they have.

I am curious as to why a Marine should not instead of putting his hand down
the dog's throat instead use the muzzle of his M-16 for that purpose.



--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

John Keeney:

Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning
in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man
pose and growling back; damned funny watching a
German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction
to run the other way.

As goofy as it sounds, this will usually work with untrained, healthy
dogs. Most grown men are at least twice as large an adult male dog and in
the animal world, size and confidence are great deterrents. I have also
been attacked twice by dogs that were not deterred by my confidence and
those I punched or kicked in the throat as hard as possible; in both
cases, the attack ended immediately. I don't imagine trained animals would
have given up so quickly. Jamming your hand into their throat would
probably work if you keep it there long enough to suffocate them.

--
Mac Cool

"Mac Cool" wrote in message
...
John Keeney:

Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning
in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man
pose and growling back; damned funny watching a
German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction
to run the other way.

As goofy as it sounds, this will usually work with untrained, healthy
dogs. Most grown men are at least twice as large an adult male dog and in
the animal world, size and confidence are great deterrents. I have also
been attacked twice by dogs that were not deterred by my confidence and
those I punched or kicked in the throat as hard as possible; in both
cases, the attack ended immediately. I don't imagine trained animals would
have given up so quickly. Jamming your hand into their throat would
probably work if you keep it there long enough to suffocate them.


Maybe so, but I wouldn't recommend trying it as a first thought. Dogs don't
open their mouths far enough to get your hand shoved in there. Watch a
barking dog - their mouth is not open very wide. Now look at an even more
dangerous dog - the one that is giving you those warning growls - his mouth
is not open at all. I'm not going to shove my hand past those teeth when
I'll have to break them off in order to get in there.
--

-Mike-

John Keeney did say:

I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than
turning your back on them is run. That just triggers
every predator-prey instinct they have.

As a cyclist, my preferred method of dealing with aggressive dogs is to
pedal a little harder and outrun them. If unable to do that due to
terrain, tired legs or laziness, I just pull out my water bottle and give
'em a little squirt in the face.
Even the most aggressive mutt is immediately put off by the surprise
stream of liquid into their face. It's worked on dogs of all sizes and
breeds.
There's a big, ugly mixed breed that I've done that to three times lately,
and I think he's starting to get used to it. This weekend, I think
there'll be some pepper sauce in the bottle.

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:09:48 -0400, WoodMangler wrote:
There's a big, ugly mixed breed that I've done that to three times lately,
and I think he's starting to get used to it. This weekend, I think
there'll be some pepper sauce in the bottle.

Just don't forget, unless you're a chilihead. Might wreck the bottle
as well...

"WoodMangler" wrote in message
news
John Keeney did say:

I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than
turning your back on them is run. That just triggers
every predator-prey instinct they have.

As a cyclist, my preferred method of dealing with aggressive dogs is to
pedal a little harder and outrun them. If unable to do that due to
terrain, tired legs or laziness, I just pull out my water bottle and give
'em a little squirt in the face.
Even the most aggressive mutt is immediately put off by the surprise
stream of liquid into their face. It's worked on dogs of all sizes and
breeds.
There's a big, ugly mixed breed that I've done that to three times lately,
and I think he's starting to get used to it. This weekend, I think
there'll be some pepper sauce in the bottle.

a trick that motorcyclists use is to slow down a little. the dog will time
and aim their approach at your slow speed. when they're fairly close, speed
up then. the dog won't be able to adjust in time.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
John Keeney wrote:


"-linux_lad" wrote in message
...
J T wrote:

I was in the military (USMC) and we were trained to respond to attack
dogs like this:


1) If a dog is charging you, you will be bitten, so prepare for it. Do
not run and do not turn your back to the dog. Force your hand violently
into the dog's mouth as he opens it to bite you. Reach as deeply into
his throat as possible.

Well, even the Marines can get it wrong.
I delivered papers for more than a half dozen years as a kid,
was charged God only knows how many times but never
was bitten. Not that that boxer might not have had it in
mind but at that time I carrying a cast metal card punch
in my hand and I gave him a pretty good shot in the end
of the nose/mouth with it. Probably hurt him all most
as much as it scared me, danged thing was shoulder high
to my hip.
Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning
in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man
pose and growling back; damned funny watching a
German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction
to run the other way.

I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than
turning your back on them is run. That just triggers
every predator-prey instinct they have.

I am curious as to why a Marine should not instead of putting his hand
down
the dog's throat instead use the muzzle of his M-16 for that purpose.



--

I think the Marines would then grab the dog by his balls from the inside?

In article , WoodMangler wrote:
John Keeney did say:

I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than
turning your back on them is run. That just triggers
every predator-prey instinct they have.

As a cyclist, my preferred method of dealing with aggressive dogs is to
pedal a little harder and outrun them. If unable to do that due to
terrain, tired legs or laziness, I just pull out my water bottle and give
'em a little squirt in the face.

I was faced with that once -- unable to speed up fast enough to outrun the
dog. I'm sure my top speed was higher than his, but he had superior
acceleration, and I could see he would catch me. Fortunately, there was a car
coming. I waited until it was almost too late, then crossed the road in front
of the car. The dog had two options: abandon the chase, or be hit by the car.
It selected the former. The driver of the car was none too happy with me, but
that was, at the moment, not very high on my list of concerns. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Eric Ryder notes:

I am curious as to why a Marine should not instead of putting his hand
down
the dog's throat instead use the muzzle of his M-16 for that purpose.

I think the Marines would then grab the dog by his balls from the inside?

You may not have the rifle, or there may be too many others around for it to be
used. But you grab the lungs from the inside. Grabbing the balls from the
inside is too much of a stretch, in every way.

Charlie Self
"The really frightening thing about middle age is that you know you'll grow out
of it." Doris Day

"J. Clarke" wrote in message ...


I am curious as to why a Marine should not instead of putting his hand down
the dog's throat instead use the muzzle of his M-16 for that purpose.

Probably depends on availability.

If the dog is an unneutered male, grasping his testicles firmly and
lifting his hindquarters off the ground would probably be effective,
though that particular manouver is easier when the dog is biting
someone else.

Keep in mind that muscles which open an animals mouth are quite weak
compared to those that close it. It is easy to snap a dog's mouth
shut by striking it with an upward blow on the chin. With luck, the
dog will bite its own tongue. It is not hard to grasp a dog by the
muzzle and hold his mouth shut--until he starts shaking his head.
But that can buy you a moment or two to gouge his eyes or kick him
in the throat or the underbelly below the ribcage.

If you can't stop the dog from biting then personally, I'd rather
give the dog my forearm than my hand because even if he breaks my
arm that's probably easier to fix than a mangled hand. Whichever
he has hold of, I'd then try to use it to raise his head so that
I could kick his throat or the underbelly below the ribcage. If
I couldn't raise him enough to get to his throat I'd gouge his
eyes with my other hand. Unless I just happened to have a Stanley
#8 in my other hand, but that is someone else's story.

As others have pointed out, the best strategy to stave off any
attack by facing the dog down with attitude.

--

FF

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

Keep in mind that muscles which open an animals mouth are quite weak
compared to those that close it. It is easy to snap a dog's mouth
shut by striking it with an upward blow on the chin. With luck, the
dog will bite its own tongue. It is not hard to grasp a dog by the
muzzle and hold his mouth shut--until he starts shaking his head.
But that can buy you a moment or two to gouge his eyes or kick him
in the throat or the underbelly below the ribcage.



I hafta ask. How do you kick it in the throat while holding its mouth shut?

Well, I can't disagree but I have to ask, do Rottweilers, as a breed
have aggressive instincts? I've never seen any aggression out of this
guys dogs but then I haven't been around a large number of Rotts.

bob g.
btw, statistically, German Shepherds account for the largest number of
emergency room visits for dog bites. Statistic doesn't mean a lot by
itself. Maybe they constitute the largest number of large dogs capable
of inflicting bites deserving of an ER visit combined with the most
opportunity.

Upscale wrote:

"Robert Galloway" wrote in message
...

Why not. The guy I work for has three Rottweilers. Got to be careful
around them or they'll love you to death. Great big teddy bears. I
can't believe the breed has any inherent evil tendencies. They must be
taught. One man's observation only.


Stayed out of this thread, but have to comment here. I may have missed it,
but all this conjecture about improper training and personality traits in
dogs has very little to do (with some exceptions) with how they react. It's
all about instinct.

When I was an 8 year old kid, we had a German Shepherd. Biggest baby and the
most gentle dog you've ever seen. One day when he was eating dinner, I was
sticking my fingers in his dog food. He snapped at me and bit me on the
cheek. Even then I could tell the dog was ashamed for nipping me, but I
realized right at that moment, you don't interfere with instinct in an
animal. The problem with having any animal, is that it's often very
difficult to tell when instinct is going to overshadow training.

Robert Galloway wrote:
Well, I can't disagree but I have to ask, do Rottweilers, as a breed
have aggressive instincts? I've never seen any aggression out of this
guys dogs but then I haven't been around a large number of Rotts.

bob g.


I like Rottweilers very much, although I've never had one. At our dog
park, though, there are two rotties that are a very big problem. Both
are un-neutered males. One's about 150lbs., and one's 135lbs. Both are
very aggressive towards other large dogs. The big one will shoulder butt
and growl at another dog until the other dog has had enough and
retaliates, which is exactly what the rottie wants. The other one will
pin other dogs and not let them up. He will stand over the other dog
growling, and when the other dog tries to get up, the rottie will force
the poor dog back down. The owner's think that their dogs should by
rights be able to do these things. They're "just being dogs." My vet
once commented that she makes a pretty good living sewing up dogs "just
being dogs." I don't know how representative this behavior is. As I said
at first, I know a number of very fine rotties.

-Peter De Smidt

OK, I was wrong about Rottweilers being Teddy Bears, as a breed. Only
know the ones I've encountered. Here are some state. This listing puts
German Shepherds and Chow Chows neck and neck for incidents with Rotts
ahead on fatal attacke.
http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/Do...tatistics.html

rhg

Lobby Dosser wrote:

Rick Cook wrote in
:


Someone posted the CDC statistics on dog bites by breed earlier. I'll
have to look through and find it. Meanwhile, take a look at the
references I cited on aggression in dogs.




Me. It was death resulting from dog bites. They may have numbers on bites
that do not result in death, but on a casual search I did not see them.
Google ought to turn up the post with the cite.

rotts are probably the worst dogs for attacking, largely due to horrid
training techniques by their owners. many so called dog trainers ought to
be sued just once for what they are doing, and anyone stupid enough to try
and self train a Rott needs a good lawsuit as well.

OTOH, properly trained they are good dogs, but need close supervision and a
lot of interaction with the family. they are very poor choices as outside
dogs. if you want a dog that will stay outside most of the time, a Rott is
a very bad choice.

"Robert Galloway" wrote in message
...
Well, I can't disagree but I have to ask, do Rottweilers, as a breed have
aggressive instincts? I've never seen any aggression out of this guys
dogs but then I haven't been around a large number of Rotts.

bob g.
btw, statistically, German Shepherds account for the largest number of
emergency room visits for dog bites. Statistic doesn't mean a lot by
itself. Maybe they constitute the largest number of large dogs capable of
inflicting bites deserving of an ER visit combined with the most
opportunity.

Upscale wrote:

"Robert Galloway" wrote in message
...

Why not. The guy I work for has three Rottweilers. Got to be careful
around them or they'll love you to death. Great big teddy bears. I
can't believe the breed has any inherent evil tendencies. They must be
taught. One man's observation only.


Stayed out of this thread, but have to comment here. I may have missed
it,
but all this conjecture about improper training and personality traits in
dogs has very little to do (with some exceptions) with how they react.
It's
all about instinct.

When I was an 8 year old kid, we had a German Shepherd. Biggest baby and
the
most gentle dog you've ever seen. One day when he was eating dinner, I
was
sticking my fingers in his dog food. He snapped at me and bit me on the
cheek. Even then I could tell the dog was ashamed for nipping me, but I
realized right at that moment, you don't interfere with instinct in an
animal. The problem with having any animal, is that it's often very
difficult to tell when instinct is going to overshadow training.

Larry Blanchard did say:

In article ,
says...
a trick that motorcyclists use is to slow down a little. the dog will time
and aim their approach at your slow speed. when they're fairly close, speed
up then. the dog won't be able to adjust in time.

As a motorcyclist off and on for fifty years, I'd say you left out a
step.

When the dog approaches, brake sharply to get behind him. THEN speed
up, planting a large boot on his butt. I've never had to do it twice.

On a bicycle, with my shoes clipped into the pedals, doing that would
require more dexterity than I can muster.

Charles Spitzer did say:


a trick that motorcyclists use is to slow down a little. the dog will time
and aim their approach at your slow speed. when they're fairly close, speed
up then. the dog won't be able to adjust in time.

Might work - If it's a slow dog, and my legs are having a really good day...

OK, now figure the odds. Chows and Rottweilers are rare compared to
Shepherds and Shepherd mixes.

Fatal is mostly a case of large dog/small victim, though one might infer
something about the smaller pit-bulls from their ranking. Persistence.

Note, also, that when the dog could avoid the confrontation (unchained) the
incidence of bites was 35% of the chained. Of course some dogs _are_
chained because they can't be trusted.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics...."

"Robert Galloway" wrote in message
...
OK, I was wrong about Rottweilers being Teddy Bears, as a breed. Only
know the ones I've encountered. Here are some state. This listing puts
German Shepherds and Chow Chows neck and neck for incidents with Rotts
ahead on fatal attacke.
http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/Do...tatistics.html

rhg

Lobby Dosser wrote:

Rick Cook wrote in
:


Someone posted the CDC statistics on dog bites by breed earlier. I'll
have to look through and find it. Meanwhile, take a look at the
references I cited on aggression in dogs.

Mike Marlow:

Maybe so, but I wouldn't recommend trying it as a first thought.
Dogs don't open their mouths far enough to get your hand shoved in
there. Watch a barking dog - their mouth is not open very wide. Now
look at an even more dangerous dog - the one that is giving you those
warning growls - his mouth is not open at all. I'm not going to
shove my hand past those teeth when I'll have to break them off in
order to get in there.

The wounds from jamming your fist in his mouth will be trivial to the pain
from him closing his jaws on some fleshier part of your anatomy. A dog can
easily bite all the way through your hand and dog bites hurt like a son of
a bitch.
--
Mac Cool

"Mac Cool" wrote in message
...
Mike Marlow:

Maybe so, but I wouldn't recommend trying it as a first thought.
Dogs don't open their mouths far enough to get your hand shoved in
there. Watch a barking dog - their mouth is not open very wide. Now
look at an even more dangerous dog - the one that is giving you those
warning growls - his mouth is not open at all. I'm not going to
shove my hand past those teeth when I'll have to break them off in
order to get in there.

The wounds from jamming your fist in his mouth will be trivial to the pain
from him closing his jaws on some fleshier part of your anatomy. A dog can
easily bite all the way through your hand and dog bites hurt like a son of
a bitch.
--
Mac Cool

Again - look at the size of your hand, and then look at most large dogs the
next time you get the chance. My thoughts are that you'll never be able to
do it. I believe this suggestion is one of those that originated in the
mind of someone who has never tried it, more than one that is based on
practical knowledge. I have a 100lb plus German Shepherd and I'd personally
give anyone $100 if they could jam their fist into his throat. Even if it
were possible, I'd pay another hundred to watch the show as that fool tried
to keep his hand in there and subdue the dog until he passed out. Hospital
bills are the responsibility of the fool that thinks this is going to work
and tries it.
--

-Mike-

Lobby Dosser wrote in message news:zq09d.13202$Xk1.760@trnddc02...
(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

Keep in mind that muscles which open an animals mouth are quite weak
compared to those that close it. It is easy to snap a dog's mouth
shut by striking it with an upward blow on the chin. With luck, the
dog will bite its own tongue. It is not hard to grasp a dog by the
muzzle and hold his mouth shut--until he starts shaking his head.
But that can buy you a moment or two to gouge his eyes or kick him
in the throat or the underbelly below the ribcage.



I hafta ask. How do you kick it in the throat while holding its mouth shut?

Lift it up by the snout. Then let go and kick. Sort of like punting.

--

FF

When I lived in suburbia I used to run Polly, my Borzoi, right along with
me. She loved the exercise, and other dogs seemed to have business
elsewhere when she went by.

"WoodMangler" wrote in message
news
Larry Blanchard did say:
.

When the dog approaches, brake sharply to get behind him. THEN speed
up, planting a large boot on his butt. I've never had to do it twice.

On a bicycle, with my shoes clipped into the pedals, doing that would
require more dexterity than I can muster.

WoodMangler wrote in
news
Larry Blanchard did say:

In article ,
says...
a trick that motorcyclists use is to slow down a little. the dog
will time and aim their approach at your slow speed. when they're
fairly close, speed up then. the dog won't be able to adjust in
time.

As a motorcyclist off and on for fifty years, I'd say you left out a
step.

When the dog approaches, brake sharply to get behind him. THEN speed
up, planting a large boot on his butt. I've never had to do it
twice.

On a bicycle, with my shoes clipped into the pedals, doing that would
require more dexterity than I can muster.


That's what the pump is for. Works just as good as a boot.

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

Lobby Dosser wrote in message
news:zq09d.13202$Xk1.760@trnddc02...
(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

Keep in mind that muscles which open an animals mouth are quite
weak compared to those that close it. It is easy to snap a dog's
mouth shut by striking it with an upward blow on the chin. With
luck, the dog will bite its own tongue. It is not hard to grasp a
dog by the muzzle and hold his mouth shut--until he starts shaking
his head. But that can buy you a moment or two to gouge his eyes or
kick him in the throat or the underbelly below the ribcage.



I hafta ask. How do you kick it in the throat while holding its mouth
shut?

Lift it up by the snout. Then let go and kick. Sort of like punting.


I suppose that might work for something around the size of a football.
But, dogs that size tend to be ankle biters and footballs usually
cooperate.

-linux_lad wrote in message ...
I have a Rat Terrier and two very
large Rottweilers. The terrier seems to be the noisiest, rowdiest one of
the bunch, even though she only weighs twelve pounds.

Ratties and the other terrier breeds were designed to go after rats
and other vermin; Rotties and Dobes were designed for the two legged
varieties. Slight difference in scale but both are fully capable of
nailing you.

My grandkids all learned the same lesson -- don't poke the dog. BTW,
dog also trained not to bite, so the sequence is funny: poke, poke,
poke, warning, poke, growl, warning, poke, snap!lick! Dog's
expression comes out as "Honestly, boss! I was licking and his/her
fingers snagged on my teeth!" All the kids treat dogs with respect and
know the warning signs for an unfriendly dog.

Ontario is making the big step and proposing what British Common Law
has always said -- the owner of a dog is financially responsible for
what the dog does, unless the victim of the dog attack is doing
something he shouldn't like B&E or trespassing. That and bringing in a
off-property-muzzle-law for the assault breeds.

My $0.02Cdn....

J. Clarke wrote:

I am curious as to why a Marine should not instead of putting his hand down
the dog's throat instead use the muzzle of his M-16 for that purpose.




The technique is taught as a self defense mechanism. An example of
circumstances where military personnel might be without a weapon would
be escape from a pow facility, or from a downed aircraft.

--
-linux_lad
To verify that this post isn't forged, click he
http://www.spoofproof.org/verify.php...7abcd93543ecc7

Mac Cool wrote:

John Keeney:


Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning
in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man
pose and growling back; damned funny watching a
German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction
to run the other way.


As goofy as it sounds, this will usually work with untrained, healthy
dogs. Most grown men are at least twice as large an adult male dog and in
the animal world, size and confidence are great deterrents. I have also
been attacked twice by dogs that were not deterred by my confidence and
those I punched or kicked in the throat as hard as possible; in both
cases, the attack ended immediately. I don't imagine trained animals would
have given up so quickly. Jamming your hand into their throat would
probably work if you keep it there long enough to suffocate them.



It's all about buying time. I've never had to do it myself and I don't
know anyone who has, but I saw a disturbing video produced by the
Russian military successfully demonstrating the same technique with a
large and aggressive dog. The idea is to trigger the dog's gag reflex,
which will cause him to temporarily lose focus of his attack. If you
have ever seen a dog try to dislodge something from his throat, you can
probably form a good idea of the mechanics at work. To survive an attack
from a dog trained to kill or injure people, you must disable the
animal's ability to mount an attack, and to do that, you need time to
smash a foot or dislocate one of his legs. If you try to kick the dog,
you could lose your balance and fall, placing you at an even greater
disadvantage. When I was a kid, I learned that most (pet) dogs would
break off an attack if I threw a rock at them. Sometimes the act of
bending over to pick up a rock was enough of a deterrent.

--
-linux_lad
To verify that this post isn't forged, click he
http://www.spoofproof.org/verify.php...9d676559acf7af

Lobby Dosser did say:


When the dog approaches, brake sharply to get behind him. THEN speed
up, planting a large boot on his butt. I've never had to do it
twice.

On a bicycle, with my shoes clipped into the pedals, doing that would
require more dexterity than I can muster.


That's what the pump is for. Works just as good as a boot.

Alas, I have one of the little CO2 cartridges. Not nearly as intimidating.

George did say:

When I lived in suburbia I used to run Polly, my Borzoi, right along with
me. She loved the exercise, and other dogs seemed to have business
elsewhere when she went by.


Niles, my Great Dane, would be an outstanding deterrent. Unfortunately, he
thinks running along side my bike is only slightly more stupid than riding
it. Walks are great; running is for other dogs.

Pepper spray or a squirt bottle with ammonia solution are good dog deterrents for
bicyclists.

--RC

WoodMangler wrote:

Larry Blanchard did say:

In article ,
says...
a trick that motorcyclists use is to slow down a little. the dog will time
and aim their approach at your slow speed. when they're fairly close, speed
up then. the dog won't be able to adjust in time.

As a motorcyclist off and on for fifty years, I'd say you left out a
step.

When the dog approaches, brake sharply to get behind him. THEN speed
up, planting a large boot on his butt. I've never had to do it twice.

On a bicycle, with my shoes clipped into the pedals, doing that would
require more dexterity than I can muster.

Lobby Dosser wrote in message news:Eqg9d.6491$cd1.3979@trnddc03...
(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

Lobby Dosser wrote in message
news:zq09d.13202$Xk1.760@trnddc02...
(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

Keep in mind that muscles which open an animals mouth are quite
weak compared to those that close it. It is easy to snap a dog's
mouth shut by striking it with an upward blow on the chin. With
luck, the dog will bite its own tongue. It is not hard to grasp a
dog by the muzzle and hold his mouth shut--until he starts shaking
his head. But that can buy you a moment or two to gouge his eyes or
kick him in the throat or the underbelly below the ribcage.



I hafta ask. How do you kick it in the throat while holding its mouth
shut?

Lift it up by the snout. Then let go and kick. Sort of like punting.


I suppose that might work for something around the size of a football.
But, dogs that size tend to be ankle biters and footballs usually
cooperate.

No need to pick up a foo foo dog. You can just kick him like he was
on a tee. ;-)

I've _gently_ held big dogs mouths shut when playing or scolding but
never on a dog intent on doing me harm. The only times I've been
bitten were when I reached out to pet dogs who hadn't warned me or
by accident when breaking up dog fights (I don't advise other people
to do that.) None of these bites were serious. If you aren't gentle
when you grab a dog by the snout you can hurt him so be careful if
you want to practice on your dog.

My experience with playing with the big dogs in the tall grass
leads me to believe that if you have one by the snout you can lift
the front legs off the ground and then kick low or let go and kick
high I freely admit I haven't tried it, but it sounds better to me
than the Tues manouver.

--

FF