Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
.... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

John T.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 5:43:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

John T.

"wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?"

I understand your frustration, but I hope you aren't projecting this
failure across the entire universe of plug-in LED fixtures. The rare
faulty unit can show up in every product line from any manufacturer,
from lighting fixtures to appliances to cars.

I've got three cheapo 4' shop lights (3 different models, can't speak to
the internal workings, might just be different cases), three cheapo 3' foot
models, 6-ish of the cheapo screw-into-the-socket style shown below,
a bunch of cheapo under-cabinet-touchless LED strips, three recessed
can conversion units and four LED replacement T8 tubes that I put into a
couple of really old (30+ year) 4' shop light housings. One of the cheapo
shop lights is in my garage where temps range from below freezing to
over 90°F.

Hundreds of hours in total, not a single failure.

You got a bad unit. It happens.

These are great for those single bulb, screw in fixtures, like in many
older closets:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...0111/300188965

These are great for older recessed can lights. They have 5 switchable color choices.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...-259/303780877

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:48:16 -0400, wrote:



Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

Early life failures are a fact of life for all electronics. Some
better than others but it happens. The failure curve looks like a
bathtub (hence called a "bathtub curve"). Lotsa failures up front,
almost zero in the middle, rising after some time (lotsa time for most
modern electronics).

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:01:11 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 5:43:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

John T.

"wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?"

I understand your frustration, but I hope you aren't projecting this
failure across the entire universe of plug-in LED fixtures. The rare
faulty unit can show up in every product line from any manufacturer,
from lighting fixtures to appliances to cars.

I've got three cheapo 4' shop lights (3 different models, can't speak to
the internal workings, might just be different cases), three cheapo 3' foot
models, 6-ish of the cheapo screw-into-the-socket style shown below,
a bunch of cheapo under-cabinet-touchless LED strips, three recessed
can conversion units and four LED replacement T8 tubes that I put into a
couple of really old (30+ year) 4' shop light housings. One of the cheapo
shop lights is in my garage where temps range from below freezing to
over 90°F.

Hundreds of hours in total, not a single failure.

You got a bad unit. It happens.

These are great for those single bulb, screw in fixtures, like in many
older closets:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...0111/300188965

These are great for older recessed can lights. They have 5 switchable color choices.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...-259/303780877


Thanks for the reply.
I've bought 2 3-ft. Feit brand fixtures on sale $ 20. each.
... time will tell, I guess.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/f...2599p.html#srp

John T.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:48:16 -0400, wrote:



Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

John T.



Go to banggood.com and look for an LED power supply in whatever volts
and amps the light needs. Yes, they're Chinese made. Yes, some of
them are junk.

However, a $7 power supply from there might resurrect your light
fixture and you might even find one that's close to the same size.

I have 3 under-cabinet LED fixtures that have been in place for maybe
10 years and still work fine. I've also had "stuff" that didn't
survive the first week. Some is from the "make it cheaper" mentality
but sometimes there are glitches in what we think are well made
products - couple of flaws in the 737-800 that took at least two
crashes and several deaths to find a solution beyond "have the other
pilot guard the throttles during landing so autothrottle doesn't take
engine one all the way to idle' xteen million for an aircraft and it
took them a year ot two to find and fix that problem. One crash and
multiple deaths when the pilot guarding the throttles had a heart
attack and was possibly dead before the plane went into its death
spiral.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:47:02 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:48:16 -0400, wrote:



Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

Early life failures are a fact of life for all electronics. Some
better than others but it happens. The failure curve looks like a
bathtub (hence called a "bathtub curve"). Lotsa failures up front,
almost zero in the middle, rising after some time (lotsa time for most
modern electronics).


Yeah .. Murphy is following me around.
John T.

On 10/14/2020 4:48 PM, wrote:


Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

John T.



Frustrating... But things break and at least you LV gave your money back.

I tend to very leery of special purchase electrical items offered by any
one.
Not saying this is the case but LV often offers these type "deals".

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 09:29:09 -0400, ads wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:48:16 -0400, wrote:



Just a rant ... a long one - sorry folks
but wondering if anyone else has any bad or good
experience with this type of lighting ?
And - buyer beware if you're outfitting your whole shop !

Less than a year ago, I installed a 4 ft. LED
self-contained plug-in light fixture in my back-basement
storage room. It was a very very decent looking item from
Lee Valley made by Armacost and more than double-the-cost
of the common cheapo units.
It failed last weekend ... after ~ 5 hours of ON time ! if that.
... so much for the 10's-of-thousands-of-hours of LED bulb life !

I looked-it-over closely - checked the 120 volt cord & connectors -
everything was A-OK ; I pulled off the end-caps to check internal
wiring connectors A-OK ; pulled the ON-OFF switch ;
- everything was A-OK.

Guess what ? - Lee Valley doesn't carry them any more ;
Armacost says that it's discontinued and that it was probably
an internal power supply failure ... gee thanks !

The polite refund from Lee Valley meant that I was not out-of-pocket -
but it was little consolation - now I need to go shopping for
another fixture... again looking at the cheapo's that I avoided !

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...?item=99W7681W

Plus - I'm hoping that the replacement fixture can be matched to
the custom-made little 45 degree corner-mounting-blocks
that I made for the original fixtures ...

Geeeze ! thanks for listening :-)

John T.



Go to banggood.com and look for an LED power supply in whatever volts
and amps the light needs. Yes, they're Chinese made. Yes, some of
them are junk.
However, a $7 power supply from there might resurrect your light
fixture and you might even find one that's close to the same size.


Just prior to returning it to the store - I tried to get at the
internal power supply - no can do - not without seriously
wrecking the unit - it's about a foot into the aluminum
channel and either attached somehow or firmly snagged
on the mounting screw socket.
John T.

I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that. Fixtures were about $10 each maybe. They just run and run and make lots of light. Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense. In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain. They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable. 5 hours of on time in a whole year? Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:13:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area.
I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement.
Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare.
And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.
Fixtures were about $10 each maybe.
They just run and run and make lots of light.
Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense.
In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two
of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain.
They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable.
5 hours of on time in a whole year?
Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?


I won't disagree with the Keep-It-Simple idea.
The plug-in fixture required no wiring and thus
no electrical safety inspection. The single-bulb slim-profile
allowed it to nest along the top corner with very little
protruding to get knocked off while storing / un-storing junk
The LED vs fluorescent and cost were not considerations
for this 1-fixture 1-time installation .. alas. :-)
On a positive note - the new 3 ft. Feit fixture required 33 inch
mount-spacing - my home-made mounts for the 4 ft.
fixtures were randomly installed drum roll
33 inches apart !
I'm heading out to buy a lotto ticket.
John T.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:13:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that. Fixtures were about $10 each maybe. They just run and run and make lots of light. Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense. In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain. They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable. 5 hours of on time in a whole year? Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?
and a dead ballast is $30-ish
2 tubes for $11.99 and a $35 ballast does NOT make ANY sense, in my
opinion. Not when I can buy a 4 foot LED that makes more light on 1/4
the power for $20

Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

I am a fool when it comes to determining value based on cost. When I lit my shop, I wanted the brightest, most even lighting I could install with 5000k color. I selected 4" two tube daylight T5 fixtures. That was a few years back, but I still don't see LED fixtures that will compete with 10,000 lumens per fixture. I've replaced one tube and no fixtures. My shop feels like an operating room that has good light on every surface wall to wall.

Bob

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

LED is far less rocket-sciency than fluorescent. Get an adjustable
power suppy. Hook it up, turn up the voltage until the light hits the
brightness you want. Note that voltage and the current. Get a
wall-wart with the same spec, you're done. The wall-wart might not be
dimmable or respond to Alexa but it will make the light give off
light.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:37:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

I am a fool when it comes to determining value based on cost. When I lit my shop, I wanted the brightest, most even lighting I could install with 5000k color. I selected 4" two tube daylight T5 fixtures. That was a few years back, but I still don't see LED fixtures that will compete with 10,000 lumens per fixture. I've replaced one tube and no fixtures. My shop feels like an operating room that has good light on every surface wall to wall.

I want it bright too. I have a 13x20 and 12x12 rooms each with six
two light T8 fixtures with 6500K (whiter the better) tubes each. I'm
about to add a 9x42 room with 16 two tube T8 LEDs,long one wall
they'll be 4500K LED fixtures and the other 6500K LED replacement
LEDs. I found the LED fixtures at a reasonable price or they'd all be
6500K.

The LED tubes are 2800l and the fluorescents are 3400l, IIRC.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:44:25 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

LED is far less rocket-sciency than fluorescent. Get an adjustable
power suppy. Hook it up, turn up the voltage until the light hits the
brightness you want. Note that voltage and the current. Get a
wall-wart with the same spec, you're done. The wall-wart might not be
dimmable or respond to Alexa but it will make the light give off
light.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.
'
A lot of LEDs aren't dimmable. You can get LED replacement tubes for
about 5-7ish$. Brighter (3400l) are at the $7 end.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:13:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that. Fixtures were about $10 each maybe. They just run and run and make lots of light. Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense. In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain. They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable. 5 hours of on time in a whole year? Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?
and a dead ballast is $30-ish
2 tubes for $11.99 and a $35 ballast does NOT make ANY sense, in my
opinion. Not when I can buy a 4 foot LED that makes more light on 1/4
the power for $20

I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing. But at Menards store, the two bulb 4 foot fluorescent light fixtures are $13.34 each. And the bulbs are $1.77 each. So for $16.88, I can get some light. Multiply that by 37 for the number of fixtures I have in my basement and you are at a total of $624.56. That is a bit of money for lights. But I might have the best lit basement in the world. Every square inch is bright.

https://www.menards.com/main/lightin...?tid=-1&ipos=2

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...tid=-1&ipos=10



Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 8:21:25 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.
Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

Menards sells individual bulbs for $1.77 and $2.22, and more expensive ones too. Maybe they are cheaper if you buy a whole box.

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...tid=-1&ipos=10

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...?tid=-1&ipos=8

whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.
I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.
You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:37:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

I am a fool when it comes to determining value based on cost. When I lit my shop, I wanted the brightest, most even lighting I could install with 5000k color. I selected 4" two tube daylight T5 fixtures. That was a few years back, but I still don't see LED fixtures that will compete with 10,000 lumens per fixture. I've replaced one tube and no fixtures. My shop feels like an operating room that has good light on every surface wall to wall.

Bob
When the ballasts start to fail you will see where replacing
flourescents doesn't make sense.
ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000. Half that light goes up, requiring a reflector to direct it back
down while a good led light focusses ALL of it's 2000 lumens down
where it does you the most good. I've found replacing 4 tube
luminaires with 2 "tube" LEDs gives better visability.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.
I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.

You're assuming that 100% of your power bill is lighting. That would
be quite unusual.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:12:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.

There are some that go both ways (ballast/replacement and
bypass/120V).

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 22:21:24 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


From: "
At the hangar we had all kinds of 2 and 4 tube flourescents - and the
ballasts were starting to fail pretty regularly. We used up all the
spare ballasts we had and most were still T12 - with the remainder T8.
Cheap replacement fixtures cost less than replacement ballasts up here
in Canada - and T8 bulbs retail are 11.99 per pair at Canadian Tire or
Home Despot - regular quick start ballasts are $35 - and single led
units can be bought for around $20 while led replacement "tubes" run
about $9 each on sale..
We pulled all the flourescents and replaced them with LED units.
Using the same number of "tubes", more evenly distributed, the hangar
is MUCH brighter - and the cost was less than replacing ballasts and
re-tubing,t12 4 footers are $10.98 Canadian per pair at Home Despot
and T12 ballasts are $24.59 each.
Upgrading to T8 the ballast are $36, plus or minus a dime or two, the
tubes $8 each, plus or minus a dime, whether bought sigly or in six
packs at the local Home Despot.
At my local wholesaler I can likely get them for about a quarter of a
dollar less - mabybe a buck less in full case lots.

2 light Feit LED units are within a dime of $60.
He picked up a whole carload (Can't remember the brand)(his Sonata)
on sale for $19? each


Now the good part - at the Hangar the cost of electricty is a certain
amount up to a certain amount of power per month - and it goes up
SIGNIFICANTLY if you go over - and not just for the overage, but for
the full consumption.
Relamping the hangar reduced consumption by 50% overall - and
lighting is not the ONLY power usage. He can use the welder
judiciously now without jumping to the higher power rate.
Turns out it was a double or triple win - less power, less cost than
re-ballasting and re-tubing, and more light

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.
Things are obviously cheaper south of the border - and the prices I
quotes are less the 13% tax - - - which you can get back if it is for
certain business uses.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:12:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.
My experience with the "low mercury" flourescents has been DISMAL.
The Alto tubes with the green ends were a real crapshoot - about half
failed in under 200 hours - about half of them significantly less.
Half or more of the remaining lasted over 5000 (about 2700 hours per
year, more or less - lasting more than 2 years)
A LED tube should AVERAGE 10,000 hours or more (I haven't had any
fail in over 2 years other than one small batch that were DOA.(and
returned for full credit - an advantage of dealing locally)

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:29:55 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000.

Sorry, I wrote the wrong information. My bulbs are T5 HO, which are 5000 lumens per tube.

BobD

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.
I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.



In most cases half of that bill would still be there if you never
turned the lights on. The "meter fee" or "service fee" is usually at
least $15 , so a 50$ power savings would only save you about $9.00

In a shop that is used every day, or an office, the savings add up
REALLY FAST.

Totally relamping the plant and warehouse, replacing high bay sodium
with LED panels had a payback of less than 3 years - NOT counting what
would have been spent replacing ballasts (and bulbs) over that time
span - and the light is much better - and it doesn't take 3-5 minutes
for the lights to get back to full bright after a power glitch!!!!!!
(when the relamp was done at least 5 ballasts were needing replacement
- at about $150 a unit plus installation and the failure curve was
going up exponentially - likely have needed another 12 in the next
year - and each year folowing???)

Just the labour cost to replace the ballast on the high bay sodiums
was ridiculous - you needed the "girraffe" and the power (277 volt)
had to be shut down, putting the whole place in darkness. The
flourescent panels are all "plug and play"and can be switched out on
the run - keeping a few spares in stock- every failure so far (6 years
now?) has been a failed solder joint on a panel - none has failed a
second time after repair - 3 or 4 lamps were replaced under warranty
- they let us keep all the failed units except one and the maintenance
guy found the fault before tha manufacturer did.
These lights are on 8-10 hours a day, 5 and 6 days a week.



I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.
You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:29:55 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

When the ballasts start to fail you will see where replacing
flourescents doesn't make sense.
ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000. Half that light goes up, requiring a reflector to direct it back
down while a good led light focusses ALL of it's 2000 lumens down
where it does you the most good. I've found replacing 4 tube
luminaires with 2 "tube" LEDs gives better visability.

I don't know what I'll do when things start to fail. When I put the T5 HO's in service, the LED availability and cost was nearly as competitive as it is now. What we don't know is how long will LED fixtures really last. Early LED bulbs had life claims that I think were vapor. I paid very high prices for name brand LED bulbs. Most of them died after two years service. I bought some cheap Chinese LEDs and they lasted 6 months. I've used CREE and Phillips and Home depot bulbs. The home depot bulbs have lasted the best but they are starting to fail after 3 years. None of them have come close to the claimed life. CREE happily replaces their bulbs at no charge with free shipping, but that still doesn't cover the aggravation.

Maybe the LED tubes will hold up better. Let's all check back with each other in five years. One of the things that bugs me about LED bulbs is that they have electronics on board and I suspect that's the weakest link, not the actual LED itself.

Bob

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 7:35:43 AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Maybe, but maybe not; the LEDs might be half that efficiency in a few years (they age).
While individual emitters can hit 140 lumen/watt, the specs on typical bulbs are 75 lumen/watt.

I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

But fluorescents with an electronic ballast don't have 120 Hz or 60 Hz modulation (flicker).
If you work with moving machinery, that's an important advantage.
The "simply rewire" means someone can replace the LED tubes with
regular fluorescent tubes (and blow a fuse, or explode, or... whatever).

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

.... and I tried a pair of those before I rebuilt with a new ballast; they didn't work (and I'm not
sure why); one variant of the drop-in type comes with a warning to only use a
particular model of GE "ballast", or "risk of fire or electric shock". So,
the replacement will require someone to read fine print.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 5:13:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that. Fixtures were about $10 each maybe. They just run and run and make lots of light. Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense. In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain. They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable. 5 hours of on time in a whole year? Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?

Fluorescent bulbs don't have to "die" before they need to be replaced. They tend to lose brightness
over time which can be essentially be unnoticeable because it's gradual. Eventually you say "Wow,
seems a bit dark in here." (or they start to flicker, not start, etc.)

Pop in a couple of new T8 tubes and you suddenly realize how dim the old ones had gotten. Now
that I'm all LED, even for compact fluorescents in the closets, landing lights, etc. dimming caused
by age is no longer an issue.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 01:58:55 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 7:35:43 AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Maybe, but maybe not; the LEDs might be half that efficiency in a few years (they age).
While individual emitters can hit 140 lumen/watt, the specs on typical bulbs are 75 lumen/watt.

Fluorescents also degrade over time, often quite quickly.

I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

But fluorescents with an electronic ballast don't have 120 Hz or 60 Hz modulation (flicker).
If you work with moving machinery, that's an important advantage.

LEDs are no different.

The "simply rewire" means someone can replace the LED tubes with
regular fluorescent tubes (and blow a fuse, or explode, or... whatever).

I've thought about that. I'm not sure how to tackle it so am using
the replacement tubes. I suspect bad things would happen with one of
each but tubes _should_ be replaced in sets (whatever's connected to
the ballast)

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

... and I tried a pair of those before I rebuilt with a new ballast; they didn't work (and I'm not
sure why); one variant of the drop-in type comes with a warning to only use a
particular model of GE "ballast", or "risk of fire or electric shock". So,
the replacement will require someone to read fine print.

Sounds like either the marketing or legal (or both) at work.

On Saturday, October 17, 2020 at 10:25:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 01:58:55 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

But fluorescents with an electronic ballast don't have 120 Hz or 60 Hz modulation (flicker).
If you work with moving machinery, that's an important advantage.

LEDs are no different.

False. A 4 kHz AC ballast for fluorescent tubes sustains a plasma that gives off light
continually, but the same with LEDs doesn't get the same effect, because LED turns
dark in a microsecond, but fluorescent turns dark in a millisecond.

The 'regular-ballast' and direct to AC wire LED variants go dark 120 times per second.
SOME, not all, LED light supplies give filtered and regulated DC current, but the
sales literature doesn't tell you about that.

You can see odd strobing effects on some video recordings, if the light flickers, and it can
kill remote controls or make my machine tools seem stationary when in full powered motion.

On 10/16/2020 9:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:12:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.

There are some that go both ways (ballast/replacement and
bypass/120V).

Understood but replacing the ballast and the florescent tubes was not a
solution at all.

It was in the wiring somewhere and or the terminals that were the issue.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:19:58 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:29:55 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000.

Sorry, I wrote the wrong information. My bulbs are T5 HO, which are 5000 lumens per tube.

BobD
And cost more than $2 each, too.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:51:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.
I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.

You're assuming that 100% of your power bill is lighting. That would
be quite unusual.

I assumed 100% lights for electricity usage to make the math easy and it also makes it more likely the LED pays for itself. My electric usage each month is lights, TV, computer, refrigerator, washer, dryer. Furnace blower in the winter. No AC usage. Lights are maybe half of electric usage. In the winter months my electricity usage goes up a lot. 437 kwh Jan 2020. 236 kwh Sep 2020. Refrigerator runs identical year round. Washer/dryer usage is same each month. TV and computer usage is same each month. Only thing that changes between Jan and Sep is lighting. And furnace blower. So lighting added 200 kwh for me during the winter. And I burned a lot of lights at night in Sep. So I think lights are the majority electric usage for me. They probably account for 50% of my total electric bill each month.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 10:23:12 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.
I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.


In most cases half of that bill would still be there if you never
turned the lights on. The "meter fee" or "service fee" is usually at
least $15 , so a 50$ power savings would only save you about $9.00

In a shop that is used every day, or an office, the savings add up
REALLY FAST.


I wholeheartedly agree with that. If you USE the lights a lot and have a LOT of lights running all the time, then it definitely makes sense to pay the money up front and get the most efficient lights that use the least electricity. Its kind of like gas and diesel trucks. If you are running the truck hundreds of thousands of miles a year, then pay more for a diesel motor and get the extra mileage efficiency. Of course with trucks the extra power/torque of diesel matters too, not just the better mileage. But assuming your gas and diesel engines are equal in torque, then pay extra up front for the diesel if you are driving it nonstop. But if you only drive it every third Sunday in the summer to church and home, then paying extra for the more efficient diesel engine does not make sense.

The original post in this thread said he used the lights less than 5 hours in a bit less than a year. Running a light bulb less than 5 hours in a year isn't going to burn much energy no matter how efficient or inefficient it is. He said right up front that he really doesn't use the lights. So LED isn't going to give any benefits if its only on 5 hours in a whole year. You'd probably be happy enough using candles for 5 hours in a year.






Totally relamping the plant and warehouse, replacing high bay sodium
with LED panels had a payback of less than 3 years - NOT counting what
would have been spent replacing ballasts (and bulbs) over that time
span - and the light is much better - and it doesn't take 3-5 minutes
for the lights to get back to full bright after a power glitch!!!!!!
(when the relamp was done at least 5 ballasts were needing replacement
- at about $150 a unit plus installation and the failure curve was
going up exponentially - likely have needed another 12 in the next
year - and each year folowing???)

Just the labour cost to replace the ballast on the high bay sodiums
was ridiculous - you needed the "girraffe" and the power (277 volt)
had to be shut down, putting the whole place in darkness. The
flourescent panels are all "plug and play"and can be switched out on
the run - keeping a few spares in stock- every failure so far (6 years
now?) has been a failed solder joint on a panel - none has failed a
second time after repair - 3 or 4 lamps were replaced under warranty
- they let us keep all the failed units except one and the maintenance
guy found the fault before tha manufacturer did.
These lights are on 8-10 hours a day, 5 and 6 days a week.



I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.
You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:41:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 10:23:12 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.
I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.


In most cases half of that bill would still be there if you never
turned the lights on. The "meter fee" or "service fee" is usually at
least $15 , so a 50$ power savings would only save you about $9.00

In a shop that is used every day, or an office, the savings add up
REALLY FAST.


I wholeheartedly agree with that. If you USE the lights a lot and have a LOT of lights running all the time, then it definitely makes sense to pay the money up front and get the most efficient lights that use the least electricity. Its kind of like gas and diesel trucks. If you are running the truck hundreds of thousands of miles a year, then pay more for a diesel motor and get the extra mileage efficiency. Of course with trucks the extra power/torque of diesel matters too, not just the better mileage. But assuming your gas and diesel engines are equal in torque, then pay extra up front for the diesel if you are driving it nonstop. But if you only drive it every third Sunday in the summer to church and home, then paying extra for the more efficient diesel engine does not make sense.

Be careful with the "extra mileage". Depending on where you are
diesel can be a good deal more expensive than gas.

The original post in this thread said he used the lights less than 5 hours in a bit less than a year. Running a light bulb less than 5 hours in a year isn't going to burn much energy no matter how efficient or inefficient it is. He said right up front that he really doesn't use the lights. So LED isn't going to give any benefits if its only on 5 hours in a whole year. You'd probably be happy enough using candles for 5 hours in a year.






Totally relamping the plant and warehouse, replacing high bay sodium
with LED panels had a payback of less than 3 years - NOT counting what
would have been spent replacing ballasts (and bulbs) over that time
span - and the light is much better - and it doesn't take 3-5 minutes
for the lights to get back to full bright after a power glitch!!!!!!
(when the relamp was done at least 5 ballasts were needing replacement
- at about $150 a unit plus installation and the failure curve was
going up exponentially - likely have needed another 12 in the next
year - and each year folowing???)

Just the labour cost to replace the ballast on the high bay sodiums
was ridiculous - you needed the "girraffe" and the power (277 volt)
had to be shut down, putting the whole place in darkness. The
flourescent panels are all "plug and play"and can be switched out on
the run - keeping a few spares in stock- every failure so far (6 years
now?) has been a failed solder joint on a panel - none has failed a
second time after repair - 3 or 4 lamps were replaced under warranty
- they let us keep all the failed units except one and the maintenance
guy found the fault before tha manufacturer did.
These lights are on 8-10 hours a day, 5 and 6 days a week.



I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.
You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

On 10/17/2020 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 01:58:55 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

The "simply rewire" means someone can replace the LED tubes with
regular fluorescent tubes (and blow a fuse, or explode, or... whatever).

I've thought about that. I'm not sure how to tackle it so am using
the replacement tubes. I suspect bad things would happen with one of
each but tubes _should_ be replaced in sets (whatever's connected to
the ballast)
If you are worried about that, it's a simple thing to write in black
magic marker in the fixture, LED ONLY.

I've replaced a lot fluorescent tubes, removing the ballasts and
sticking in LEDS. In my bathrooms that each had 3 double tube el cheapo
fixtures behind translucent drop ceilings, I would replace tubes about
once a year or so (PIA). I replaced the tubes with LEDS, and removed the
ballasts and no failures in 3 years. Better yet, I had to remove half
the led bulbs because they were too bright, so now instead of 6 junk
fluoresents, I have 3 LED tubes. I used the extra bulbs to replace
quality Fluorescents that never failed in 45 years in my shop, just to
save electiricty and for the extra light, but mainly just to use the
extra LED lights.

BW, the LEDS were SUNCO 6 for $40 on Amazon. I looked, and they don't
have them now, and don't know if they will be restocked. Probably a
little snooping around will find similar. They are the type that work
with or without the ballast. Seems stupid to use them with the ballast,
but whatever.

Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.