On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:13:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that. Fixtures were about $10 each maybe. They just run and run and make lots of light. Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense. In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain. They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable. 5 hours of on time in a whole year? Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?
and a dead ballast is $30-ish
2 tubes for $11.99 and a $35 ballast does NOT make ANY sense, in my
opinion. Not when I can buy a 4 foot LED that makes more light on 1/4
the power for $20

Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

I am a fool when it comes to determining value based on cost. When I lit my shop, I wanted the brightest, most even lighting I could install with 5000k color. I selected 4" two tube daylight T5 fixtures. That was a few years back, but I still don't see LED fixtures that will compete with 10,000 lumens per fixture. I've replaced one tube and no fixtures. My shop feels like an operating room that has good light on every surface wall to wall.

Bob

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

LED is far less rocket-sciency than fluorescent. Get an adjustable
power suppy. Hook it up, turn up the voltage until the light hits the
brightness you want. Note that voltage and the current. Get a
wall-wart with the same spec, you're done. The wall-wart might not be
dimmable or respond to Alexa but it will make the light give off
light.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:37:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

I am a fool when it comes to determining value based on cost. When I lit my shop, I wanted the brightest, most even lighting I could install with 5000k color. I selected 4" two tube daylight T5 fixtures. That was a few years back, but I still don't see LED fixtures that will compete with 10,000 lumens per fixture. I've replaced one tube and no fixtures. My shop feels like an operating room that has good light on every surface wall to wall.

I want it bright too. I have a 13x20 and 12x12 rooms each with six
two light T8 fixtures with 6500K (whiter the better) tubes each. I'm
about to add a 9x42 room with 16 two tube T8 LEDs,long one wall
they'll be 4500K LED fixtures and the other 6500K LED replacement
LEDs. I found the LED fixtures at a reasonable price or they'd all be
6500K.

The LED tubes are 2800l and the fluorescents are 3400l, IIRC.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:44:25 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

LED is far less rocket-sciency than fluorescent. Get an adjustable
power suppy. Hook it up, turn up the voltage until the light hits the
brightness you want. Note that voltage and the current. Get a
wall-wart with the same spec, you're done. The wall-wart might not be
dimmable or respond to Alexa but it will make the light give off
light.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.
'
A lot of LEDs aren't dimmable. You can get LED replacement tubes for
about 5-7ish$. Brighter (3400l) are at the $7 end.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:13:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that. Fixtures were about $10 each maybe. They just run and run and make lots of light. Sometimes getting high faluting and fancy dandy just does not make sense. In your case it would have made lots more sense to just put in one or two of the single bulb fixtures with a pull chain. They are $1 each and dead simple. 110% reliable. 5 hours of on time in a whole year? Why not go for simple and reliable and cheap? Why F around?
and a dead ballast is $30-ish
2 tubes for $11.99 and a $35 ballast does NOT make ANY sense, in my
opinion. Not when I can buy a 4 foot LED that makes more light on 1/4
the power for $20

I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing. But at Menards store, the two bulb 4 foot fluorescent light fixtures are $13.34 each. And the bulbs are $1.77 each. So for $16.88, I can get some light. Multiply that by 37 for the number of fixtures I have in my basement and you are at a total of $624.56. That is a bit of money for lights. But I might have the best lit basement in the world. Every square inch is bright.

https://www.menards.com/main/lightin...?tid=-1&ipos=2

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...tid=-1&ipos=10



Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 8:21:25 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.
Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

Menards sells individual bulbs for $1.77 and $2.22, and more expensive ones too. Maybe they are cheaper if you buy a whole box.

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...tid=-1&ipos=10

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...?tid=-1&ipos=8

whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".

Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.