On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:55:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/7/2016 4:31 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 06:05:34 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode?
IOW, is there an argument for having both?


Could everyone in the back seats move up to the empty ones in the front?
ROTF

Welllll.. The RO125 in aggressive mode will remove material at an
alarming rate, and in regular ROS it is more normal but IMHO still not a
finish sander. Its sanding stroke is 9/64", that is a hair under 1/8".
So I typically start my sanding in aggressive mode on solid wood only at
the joints with the Rotex. I then switch to the RO mode with the same
paper. Then I switch to a finer grit, 150 in RO mode and finish up with
the RTS 400 finish sander using 180 grit.
Both the RTS 400 and the ETS125 have a 5/64" sanding stroke, about half
that of the Rotex Ro125.

So yes the ETS125 is different than the RO125 as far as fine sanding
goes. If you are staining you will probably have to go additional
finer grits to keep from seeing the swirls. With the finish sander I
typically stop at 180. Going finer grits typically means that the stain
will come out lighter too.

If you are looking for a good Festool finish sander I would recommend
the RTS4000 or the ETS125. If you want to speed up initial sanding, the
sanding to make joints smooth and remove glue, the Rotex is going to do
that 10 times faster in aggressive mode. With the Granat 120 grit paper.
The Rotex can smooth out a glue joint with an undetectable by touch glue
line 3~5 seconds, that includes removing glue squeeze out. In regular
RO mode probably 10~15 seconds. It can do either with the regular Rubin
sand paper also however the glue will load the paper pretty quickly. I
have yet to see any loading on the Granat paper when doing this procedure.

As for as an argument for having both, I have always owned, in the past
25 years, RO sanders that were never really considered finish sanders.
And I burned through a couple of PC SpeedBloc finish sanders during that
time period. The SpeedBloc was a great sander but lacked any kind of
dust control. I like a square pad finish sander simply because it gets
into tight corners. That said in the past 4~5 years I have changed up
how I finish and assemble. While it takes significantly longer to
finish and assemble I prefinish parts that would be difficult to finish
after assembly. Soooo the ETS125 would probably work better for me
these days. I did not do any edge sanding with one but it seems to be
quite easy to control and does not require much more than a finger to
guide it.

So again, With both sanders, the Rotex and a finish sander, I could see
you cutting sanding time down to 1/3 of the time than if you were doing
all sanding with a finish sander. The Rotex is really a game changer
when considering speed of initial sanding as you are tweaking the fit of
the joints especially if the joint surfaces are not on the same plane.
After that initial sanding you could finish the rest of the grits with a
finish sander in about the same time as with the Rotex in RO mode.

I'm going the other way. I'm looking at a finish or detail sander.

With that in mind, the Rotex might be good enough right down to the
finish "polishing" if you are mostly using coarse grain woods like oak
AND use a clear finish, no stain.
Festool has videos of the Rotex demonstrated on a rough cut slam of
"whatever". They use no varnish but in the end steps they use a polish
and the wood surface is amazing.


Now I keep mentioning Aggressive, Robatoy turned me on to the Rotex and
I recall him cautioning to be careful in Aggressive mode. In that mode
the sander removes a lot of material fast. It is not a big concern of
controlling the sander, in aggressive mode, so much as the material
disappearing pronto. And especially if you are using a vac for dust
collection. You will see basically nothing as far as dust is concerned
so you don't know how much you are removing unless you check the
progress every 3~4 seconds when working on a particular problem area
like a joint.

I personally would not consider not having both. They are both equally
important tools in their own rights. They both bring something to the
table of equal importance, speed and finer finish sanding.

Hmm, choices. So many choices! What are your thoughts on the DTS400?

And remember I build a lot and speed is important to me when sanding.

Thank y'all for coming out tonight!

Thank you for spending the time to educate me! I'll probably read
your lesson a few dozen more times. ;-)

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 12:43:37 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/5/2016 4:03 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/5/2016 2:26 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip

That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of
those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would
be a shop use tool only.


I have had a Delta mortiser for about 18 years. I have used it about 10
times, maybe. They are cool but I have not touched it since getting the
Domino. Essentially the Domino is operated and very much like a Plate
Joiner, AKA Biscuit cutter, except much much more accurate.
I have been interest in woodworking since I was 10 and have only really
been selling my work since retiring at 40.
IMHO the Domino enabled me to step up my game significantly and IMHO
several times more useful than a mortiser and shockingly faster than a
mortiser. With the Domino you do not have to cut a tenon for the mating
part. Anyway........ ;~)

I also have a Delta Mortiser. The only thing good about it is it is
cheap, and is always set up ready to go. I recommend you go with the
Domino rather than waste your money (and space) on a dedicated mortiser.
If I were younger, and planned on making lots of furniture, I would get
a Domino or possibly another brand that does the same thing, if one
exists. A mortiser takes up space and unless you have a really nice one,
(not a cheapie like the Delta) they are less than stellar. Domino seems
to be a stellar piece, quick and easy to use and very, very useful.

I would get one in a heartbeat if I was younger. Still wood (Freudian
slip) if I saw one used at a good price. But for now it'll be either a
router or chisels or both.

or my biscuit cutter.

To me it is more than intriguing when they drill, slice and dice, and
swing the bit all at once. My first up close view reminded me of the
knives in the casket top or was it a chest top of an Edgar A. Poe
story.

On 2/7/2016 8:35 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 12:43:37 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/5/2016 4:03 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/5/2016 2:26 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip

That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of
those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would
be a shop use tool only.


I have had a Delta mortiser for about 18 years. I have used it about 10
times, maybe. They are cool but I have not touched it since getting the
Domino. Essentially the Domino is operated and very much like a Plate
Joiner, AKA Biscuit cutter, except much much more accurate.
I have been interest in woodworking since I was 10 and have only really
been selling my work since retiring at 40.
IMHO the Domino enabled me to step up my game significantly and IMHO
several times more useful than a mortiser and shockingly faster than a
mortiser. With the Domino you do not have to cut a tenon for the mating
part. Anyway........ ;~)

I also have a Delta Mortiser. The only thing good about it is it is
cheap, and is always set up ready to go. I recommend you go with the
Domino rather than waste your money (and space) on a dedicated mortiser.
If I were younger, and planned on making lots of furniture, I would get
a Domino or possibly another brand that does the same thing, if one
exists. A mortiser takes up space and unless you have a really nice one,
(not a cheapie like the Delta) they are less than stellar. Domino seems
to be a stellar piece, quick and easy to use and very, very useful.

I would get one in a heartbeat if I was younger. Still wood (Freudian
slip) if I saw one used at a good price. But for now it'll be either a
router or chisels or both.

or my biscuit cutter.

To me it is more than intriguing when they drill, slice and dice, and
swing the bit all at once. My first up close view reminded me of the
knives in the casket top or was it a chest top of an Edgar A. Poe
story.


I'm not going to try to persuade you to get the Domino if you can't wrap
your head around the price yet. Notice I said yet. LOL At a certain
point Festool prices no longer seemed to be a real deterrent for me.
You are getting what you pay for a majority of the time and top quality.
The thing that made me think and rethink buying the Domino was if I
would/could justify the expense. As it turns out I use it on "every"
piece I build. I have come up with unique ways to use it other than
what you might think too.
If you are into about woodworking and it is not a faze in your life you
most likely will use the Domino on every thing you build.

On that drawing I sent you for the night stands. The drawings don't
show it but there are Domino floating tenons in every FF joint. That
includes the back FFs lap joints. All totaled so far on these night
stands there are 40 mortises and floating tenons. Now think about
cutting 40 precise mortises with a bench top mortiser. I'm not sure I
cut 40 mortises with my mortiser total. And FWIW the mortiser chisels
have to be kept sharp, and from the factory sharp is not sharp enough.
There is a lot of friction on those chisels and you want a mirror
surface on the outside surfaces. And then the smaller bits break easily
and those are special bits.

I would advise using jigs and a router over purchasing a bench top
mortiser. Mortisers are a lot like band saws. You have to buy a good
one to get good results. Cheap does not get you there.

On 2/7/2016 8:15 PM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:55:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/7/2016 4:31 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 06:05:34 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode?
IOW, is there an argument for having both?


Could everyone in the back seats move up to the empty ones in the front?
ROTF

Welllll.. The RO125 in aggressive mode will remove material at an
alarming rate, and in regular ROS it is more normal but IMHO still not a
finish sander. Its sanding stroke is 9/64", that is a hair under 1/8".
So I typically start my sanding in aggressive mode on solid wood only at
the joints with the Rotex. I then switch to the RO mode with the same
paper. Then I switch to a finer grit, 150 in RO mode and finish up with
the RTS 400 finish sander using 180 grit.
Both the RTS 400 and the ETS125 have a 5/64" sanding stroke, about half
that of the Rotex Ro125.

So yes the ETS125 is different than the RO125 as far as fine sanding
goes. If you are staining you will probably have to go additional
finer grits to keep from seeing the swirls. With the finish sander I
typically stop at 180. Going finer grits typically means that the stain
will come out lighter too.

If you are looking for a good Festool finish sander I would recommend
the RTS4000 or the ETS125. If you want to speed up initial sanding, the
sanding to make joints smooth and remove glue, the Rotex is going to do
that 10 times faster in aggressive mode. With the Granat 120 grit paper.
The Rotex can smooth out a glue joint with an undetectable by touch glue
line 3~5 seconds, that includes removing glue squeeze out. In regular
RO mode probably 10~15 seconds. It can do either with the regular Rubin
sand paper also however the glue will load the paper pretty quickly. I
have yet to see any loading on the Granat paper when doing this procedure.

As for as an argument for having both, I have always owned, in the past
25 years, RO sanders that were never really considered finish sanders.
And I burned through a couple of PC SpeedBloc finish sanders during that
time period. The SpeedBloc was a great sander but lacked any kind of
dust control. I like a square pad finish sander simply because it gets
into tight corners. That said in the past 4~5 years I have changed up
how I finish and assemble. While it takes significantly longer to
finish and assemble I prefinish parts that would be difficult to finish
after assembly. Soooo the ETS125 would probably work better for me
these days. I did not do any edge sanding with one but it seems to be
quite easy to control and does not require much more than a finger to
guide it.

So again, With both sanders, the Rotex and a finish sander, I could see
you cutting sanding time down to 1/3 of the time than if you were doing
all sanding with a finish sander. The Rotex is really a game changer
when considering speed of initial sanding as you are tweaking the fit of
the joints especially if the joint surfaces are not on the same plane.
After that initial sanding you could finish the rest of the grits with a
finish sander in about the same time as with the Rotex in RO mode.

I'm going the other way. I'm looking at a finish or detail sander.

That you are. LOL The To 125 is not going in that direction. although
I have no doubt that you would use it a lot if you bought one. But the
Rotex IMHO is NOT a one size fits all.


With that in mind, the Rotex might be good enough right down to the
finish "polishing" if you are mostly using coarse grain woods like oak
AND use a clear finish, no stain.
Festool has videos of the Rotex demonstrated on a rough cut slam of
"whatever". They use no varnish but in the end steps they use a polish
and the wood surface is amazing.


Now I keep mentioning Aggressive, Robatoy turned me on to the Rotex and
I recall him cautioning to be careful in Aggressive mode. In that mode
the sander removes a lot of material fast. It is not a big concern of
controlling the sander, in aggressive mode, so much as the material
disappearing pronto. And especially if you are using a vac for dust
collection. You will see basically nothing as far as dust is concerned
so you don't know how much you are removing unless you check the
progress every 3~4 seconds when working on a particular problem area
like a joint.

I personally would not consider not having both. They are both equally
important tools in their own rights. They both bring something to the
table of equal importance, speed and finer finish sanding.

Hmm, choices. So many choices! What are your thoughts on the DTS400?

I have not used a DTS400 however I think it is essentially the same as
the RTS400. They both use the same size paper, total length and total
width but the DTS has the "iron" shaped pad so it actually has less
paper on the surface than the RTS, sanding will be a bit slower. I'm
not sure how much better the tapered point will be at getting into
corners than the square corner of the RTS unless you are going into
acute angled corners. Though with the rounded sides on the pad and
paper, sanding the bottom of a bucket might be easier done with the DTS
over the RTS. I don't often run into that at all.

Swingman IIRC owns the DTS400 so he might have a thing or two to mention
about that sander.

As far as the *TS400 sanders go they are good finish sanders. They are
a little smaller than some finish sanders but do a great job. Again
this sander used with a vac compared to and just coming off of the PC
SpeedBloc finish sander 7~8 years ago I thought I had made a bad choice.
The SpeedBloc with NO dust control and raised a pile of dust quickly
and did a great job. The Festool RTS400 left no dust and as a result
the red colored Rubin paper stayed red with very little dust sticking to
the paper. That was discerning because you saw no evidence of how much
work it was doing. I'm sure the DTS400 has the same effect.
So I would say that you will certainly, with dust collection, need to
change your methods of determining progress a little. You are going to
have to feel the surface with your hand to judge progress and you will
need to compare the sharpness of the used paper to a new sheet to judge
when to change the paper out. That said when the paper stays clean it
lasts longer too.

I would not consider either of these sanders as detail sanders however
the DTS might offer some degree of detail sanding with its pointed end.

When I think of detail sanders I think of those that offer the profile
inserts for sanding round overs or coves. PC used to offer a terrible
detail sander. Many of us probably regretted buying that one, I know I
did. The Fein Multimaster offers detail sanding profiles.

Then there is the baby Rotex. It offers a much smaller 3.5" diameter
pad and operates like the bigger Rotex sanders plus a change out for a
triangle pad and paper for tight spots. I would want to try that one
out before pulling the trigger on that one.

http://rotex.festoolusa.com/sanders/models/RO90DX/

And finally there is the LS130 that offers multiple profile detail
sanding. IMHO this is the true detail sander and IIRC uses the same
paper as the RTS400 for regular finish sanding. IIRC also this sander
has a linear action vs. orbital so you are going to have to really pay
attention to the drain direction. Both this sander and the smaller
RO90 Rotex are north of $400. The RTS and DTS 400 sanders are about
$250 each.

https://www.festoolusa.com/power-too...-sander-567852





And remember I build a lot and speed is important to me when sanding.

Thank y'all for coming out tonight!

Thank you for spending the time to educate me! I'll probably read
your lesson a few dozen more times. ;-)

Glad to share. You are welcome.

On 2/8/2016 8:10 AM, Leon wrote:

Correction, 40 floating tenons and 56 mortises.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 08:10:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/7/2016 8:35 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 12:43:37 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/5/2016 4:03 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/5/2016 2:26 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip

That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of
those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would
be a shop use tool only.


I have had a Delta mortiser for about 18 years. I have used it about 10
times, maybe. They are cool but I have not touched it since getting the
Domino. Essentially the Domino is operated and very much like a Plate
Joiner, AKA Biscuit cutter, except much much more accurate.
I have been interest in woodworking since I was 10 and have only really
been selling my work since retiring at 40.
IMHO the Domino enabled me to step up my game significantly and IMHO
several times more useful than a mortiser and shockingly faster than a
mortiser. With the Domino you do not have to cut a tenon for the mating
part. Anyway........ ;~)

I also have a Delta Mortiser. The only thing good about it is it is
cheap, and is always set up ready to go. I recommend you go with the
Domino rather than waste your money (and space) on a dedicated mortiser.
If I were younger, and planned on making lots of furniture, I would get
a Domino or possibly another brand that does the same thing, if one
exists. A mortiser takes up space and unless you have a really nice one,
(not a cheapie like the Delta) they are less than stellar. Domino seems
to be a stellar piece, quick and easy to use and very, very useful.

I would get one in a heartbeat if I was younger. Still wood (Freudian
slip) if I saw one used at a good price. But for now it'll be either a
router or chisels or both.

or my biscuit cutter.

To me it is more than intriguing when they drill, slice and dice, and
swing the bit all at once. My first up close view reminded me of the
knives in the casket top or was it a chest top of an Edgar A. Poe
story.


I'm not going to try to persuade you to get the Domino if you can't wrap
your head around the price yet. Notice I said yet. LOL At a certain
point Festool prices no longer seemed to be a real deterrent for me.
You are getting what you pay for a majority of the time and top quality.
The thing that made me think and rethink buying the Domino was if I
would/could justify the expense. As it turns out I use it on "every"
piece I build. I have come up with unique ways to use it other than
what you might think too.
If you are into about woodworking and it is not a faze in your life you
most likely will use the Domino on every thing you build.

On that drawing I sent you for the night stands. The drawings don't
show it but there are Domino floating tenons in every FF joint. That
includes the back FFs lap joints. All totaled so far on these night
stands there are 40 mortises and floating tenons. Now think about
cutting 40 precise mortises with a bench top mortiser. I'm not sure I
cut 40 mortises with my mortiser total. And FWIW the mortiser chisels
have to be kept sharp, and from the factory sharp is not sharp enough.
There is a lot of friction on those chisels and you want a mirror
surface on the outside surfaces. And then the smaller bits break easily
and those are special bits.

I would advise using jigs and a router over purchasing a bench top
mortiser. Mortisers are a lot like band saws. You have to buy a good
one to get good results. Cheap does not get you there.


In thinking about my cabinet doors, Freud makes a nice router set that
makes a tenon on the rails, when done properly, but the stile still
requires a way of making a mortise. And as far as ff's go and reading
your posts it just seems like the domino is the way to go and the
hardwood tenon is far superior to the soft biscuit. So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

On my cabinet/island I am putting in a 4 drawer bank, using your
idea's for the front end of the drawers and at the back end using a
vertical riser with notch's cut out to put the back end of the rail
that the drawer slide is mounted too. In design it looks fine. Using a
dado joint there could be useful as a "floating joint" to reduce any
stress.

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

On 2/8/2016 1:11 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip


I'm not going to try to persuade you to get the Domino if you can't wrap
your head around the price yet. Notice I said yet. LOL At a certain
point Festool prices no longer seemed to be a real deterrent for me.
You are getting what you pay for a majority of the time and top quality.
The thing that made me think and rethink buying the Domino was if I
would/could justify the expense. As it turns out I use it on "every"
piece I build. I have come up with unique ways to use it other than
what you might think too.
If you are into about woodworking and it is not a faze in your life you
most likely will use the Domino on every thing you build.

On that drawing I sent you for the night stands. The drawings don't
show it but there are Domino floating tenons in every FF joint. That
includes the back FFs lap joints. All totaled so far on these night
stands there are 40 mortises and floating tenons. Now think about
cutting 40 precise mortises with a bench top mortiser. I'm not sure I
cut 40 mortises with my mortiser total. And FWIW the mortiser chisels
have to be kept sharp, and from the factory sharp is not sharp enough.
There is a lot of friction on those chisels and you want a mirror
surface on the outside surfaces. And then the smaller bits break easily
and those are special bits.

I would advise using jigs and a router over purchasing a bench top
mortiser. Mortisers are a lot like band saws. You have to buy a good
one to get good results. Cheap does not get you there.


In thinking about my cabinet doors, Freud makes a nice router set that
makes a tenon on the rails, when done properly, but the stile still
requires a way of making a mortise.

If I understand what you are talking about,,,,,
I would strongly advise against that set up. Those sets do a good job
but you can do much better with a dado set. Unless!!!! you are looking
at a cope and stick set of bits. The problem with the tennon set/bit is
that it makes a fixed thickness tenon. Your panel probably will not fit
properly in the groves that the tenon will fit onto. Most likely the
panel will be loose.

I cut a grove in my stiles and rails centered to accept the exact width
of the panel or plywood panel that I will be using. Cut a grove
slightly off center on the edge of a scrap. Flip the piece end for end
and cut again. This method will perfectly center the groove. Sneak up
on the fence setting until you have that groove perfect.
I cut that groove 1/2" deep


Next with a stacked dado set set the blade to cut 1/2" wide or a little
wider and use a sacrificial fence to partially bury the blade and to
index how long the tenon will be cut repeatedly. Cut both ends of the
rails on both sides and both ends to form a tenon to perfectly match the
width of the grooves on the rails and stiles.

You get this.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/




And as far as ff's go and reading
your posts it just seems like the domino is the way to go and the
hardwood tenon is far superior to the soft biscuit.

It is and the 5mm thick tenons are about 3/4" wide so the you don't have
to worry about the biscuit slot being too wide for the end of a rail.


So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

Understood.




On my cabinet/island I am putting in a 4 drawer bank, using your
idea's for the front end of the drawers and at the back end using a
vertical riser with notch's cut out to put the back end of the rail
that the drawer slide is mounted too. In design it looks fine. Using a
dado joint there could be useful as a "floating joint" to reduce any
stress.

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

A few of us have been down this road many times. ;~)

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:23:06 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/8/2016 1:11 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip


I'm not going to try to persuade you to get the Domino if you can't wrap
your head around the price yet. Notice I said yet. LOL At a certain
point Festool prices no longer seemed to be a real deterrent for me.
You are getting what you pay for a majority of the time and top quality.
The thing that made me think and rethink buying the Domino was if I
would/could justify the expense. As it turns out I use it on "every"
piece I build. I have come up with unique ways to use it other than
what you might think too.
If you are into about woodworking and it is not a faze in your life you
most likely will use the Domino on every thing you build.

On that drawing I sent you for the night stands. The drawings don't
show it but there are Domino floating tenons in every FF joint. That
includes the back FFs lap joints. All totaled so far on these night
stands there are 40 mortises and floating tenons. Now think about
cutting 40 precise mortises with a bench top mortiser. I'm not sure I
cut 40 mortises with my mortiser total. And FWIW the mortiser chisels
have to be kept sharp, and from the factory sharp is not sharp enough.
There is a lot of friction on those chisels and you want a mirror
surface on the outside surfaces. And then the smaller bits break easily
and those are special bits.

I would advise using jigs and a router over purchasing a bench top
mortiser. Mortisers are a lot like band saws. You have to buy a good
one to get good results. Cheap does not get you there.


In thinking about my cabinet doors, Freud makes a nice router set that
makes a tenon on the rails, when done properly, but the stile still
requires a way of making a mortise.

If I understand what you are talking about,,,,,
I would strongly advise against that set up. Those sets do a good job
but you can do much better with a dado set. Unless!!!! you are looking
at a cope and stick set of bits. The problem with the tennon set/bit is
that it makes a fixed thickness tenon. Your panel probably will not fit
properly in the groves that the tenon will fit onto. Most likely the
panel will be loose.

Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral
style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and
have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The
rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or
inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where
you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on
that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some
people might think the joint was just a box joint.

Would you mind post a picture of the back of your night stand to see?
Funny, but without seeing it, the project is not completed in my minds
eye.

I cut a grove in my stiles and rails centered to accept the exact width
of the panel or plywood panel that I will be using. Cut a grove
slightly off center on the edge of a scrap. Flip the piece end for end
and cut again. This method will perfectly center the groove. Sneak up
on the fence setting until you have that groove perfect.
I cut that groove 1/2" deep


Next with a stacked dado set set the blade to cut 1/2" wide or a little
wider and use a sacrificial fence to partially bury the blade and to
index how long the tenon will be cut repeatedly. Cut both ends of the
rails on both sides and both ends to form a tenon to perfectly match the
width of the grooves on the rails and stiles.

You get this.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Which would make my life considerably easier. I realize that with the
doors comes the hinge options and once my drawings are completed the I
was going to focus on that part of it before I actually start building
the cases. I've been considering the options, and I know that where I
have drawers behind doors that I need to be sure they swing wide
enough open.

Funny, In the HVAC trader there are seven other trades that we have to
be fluent in. All the skill sets, and then interactions with
carpenters and the like. So I know I can do most any trade if needed,
but getting involved with wood working and its various options and
their integrations is a new animal to me. Hanging the cabinets should
be easy enough as I did that for our control jobs, but in this case I
am the one building the cabinets and responsible for their continued
usage.

Kudos' to all you guys, especially you and Karl, and others with their
niche's.




And as far as ff's go and reading
your posts it just seems like the domino is the way to go and the
hardwood tenon is far superior to the soft biscuit.

It is and the 5mm thick tenons are about 3/4" wide so the you don't have
to worry about the biscuit slot being too wide for the end of a rail.


So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

Understood.




On my cabinet/island I am putting in a 4 drawer bank, using your
idea's for the front end of the drawers and at the back end using a
vertical riser with notch's cut out to put the back end of the rail
that the drawer slide is mounted too. In design it looks fine. Using a
dado joint there could be useful as a "floating joint" to reduce any
stress.

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

A few of us have been down this road many times. ;~)

Yes, but then there are finishers, and the real finishers. Which takes
the product to a whole nut her level.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 16:14:09 -0800, OFWW wrote:

Yes, but then there are finishers, and the real finishers. Which takes
the product to a whole nut her level.

Lousy spell checker in Forte' and I do mean lousy! " 'nuther"

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 1:11:13 PM UTC-6, OFWW wrote:

So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

This is an excellent path to take. At this point, you may not have found what you really like to do in regards to woodworking. There are so many avenues to explore; When I started our framing apartments and houses, I really liked that. Then I went to work for a different company that taught me their method of building store fixtures and cabinets. This was a great way to learn and a great way to learn methods to build bomb proof cabinets with a minimum of tools. I worked with a furniture maker for a while, and started making faux antiques when they were really in fashion. That got me interested in finishing, which led me into making boxes - jewelry, humidors, etc. so I could do finer woodwork. Then about 20 years ago, I got a midi lathe, and didn't do anything but turn (except as required at work) for a few years. Wood turning got me interested in recreational wood work again.

My point is that unless you know which direction you are going, save your money on your tools and work on learning the skills in craft area you are interested in as well as learning the hand/motor skills to perform them. I have tried to help a lot of folks over the years that are interested in woodworking, and many seem to think that better tools will instantly make you have better capabilities and skills. Not so.

Personally, I think you should buy good tools, tools that don't break the bank so you can get to work immediately doing your projects. Bad tools of cheaply made tools can be actual punishment, so buy the best you can afford. They can cause you to go backwards for all kinds of reasons. They may not do the job well, they may do the job but it doesn't give satisfactory return on the time spent, or they may not have the level of repeatability that allows you to depend on an end result when using it. On the other hand, Leon stands alone in all of my compadres that own or have access to the Domino that use it. None of them use it to its capabilities, and few have ever used it on more than one or two projects.

Leon understands and designs around that tool and it has paid for itself as he uses it many times over. Even to build your skills and to understand usage, application snd skills needed, you could probably get by with different kinds of joinery. Remember, we didn't have problems with things falling apart when we used dowels, splines, loose bead, and even biscuits. Sure, the Domino is superior to all of those in speed and performance, but between homemade jigs and inexpensive guides and goodies available on the net you can learn a great deal about making joints.

I always tell people to learn what they like to do first.
Build your tool collection as your experience grows and you won't overspend.. On the other hand, don't spend so much on machines that you can't afford wood or any other machines!

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

Smart!

Robert

On 2/8/2016 6:44 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 1:11:13 PM UTC-6, OFWW wrote:

So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

This is an excellent path to take. At this point, you may not have found what you really like to do in regards to woodworking. There are so many avenues to explore; When I started our framing apartments and houses, I really liked that. Then I went to work for a different company that taught me their method of building store fixtures and cabinets. This was a great way to learn and a great way to learn methods to build bomb proof cabinets with a minimum of tools. I worked with a furniture maker for a while, and started making faux antiques when they were really in fashion. That got me interested in finishing, which led me into making boxes - jewelry, humidors, etc. so I could do finer woodwork. Then about 20 years ago, I got a midi lathe, and didn't do anything but turn (except as required at work) for a few years. Wood turning got me interested in recreational wood work again.

My point is that unless you know which direction you are going, save your money on your tools and work on learning the skills in craft area you are interested in as well as learning the hand/motor skills to perform them. I have tried to help a lot of folks over the years that are interested in woodworking, and many seem to think that better tools will instantly make you have better capabilities and skills. Not so.

Personally, I think you should buy good tools, tools that don't break the bank so you can get to work immediately doing your projects. Bad tools of cheaply made tools can be actual punishment, so buy the best you can afford. They can cause you to go backwards for all kinds of reasons. They may not do the job well, they may do the job but it doesn't give satisfactory return on the time spent, or they may not have the level of repeatability that allows you to depend on an end result when using it. On the other hand, Leon stands alone in all of my compadres that own or have access to the Domino that use it. None of them use it to its capabilities, and few have ever used it on more than one or two projects.

Leon understands and designs around that tool and it has paid for itself as he uses it many times over. Even to build your skills and to understand usage, application snd skills needed, you could probably get by with different kinds of joinery. Remember, we didn't have problems with things falling apart when we used dowels, splines, loose bead, and even biscuits. Sure, the Domino is superior to all of those in speed and performance, but between homemade jigs and inexpensive guides and goodies available on the net you can learn a great deal about making joints.

I always tell people to learn what they like to do first.
Build your tool collection as your experience grows and you won't overspend. On the other hand, don't spend so much on machines that you can't afford wood or any other machines!

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

Smart!

Robert



Well said Robert!

On 2/8/2016 6:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:23:06 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/8/2016 1:11 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip


I'm not going to try to persuade you to get the Domino if you can't wrap
your head around the price yet. Notice I said yet. LOL At a certain
point Festool prices no longer seemed to be a real deterrent for me.
You are getting what you pay for a majority of the time and top quality.
The thing that made me think and rethink buying the Domino was if I
would/could justify the expense. As it turns out I use it on "every"
piece I build. I have come up with unique ways to use it other than
what you might think too.
If you are into about woodworking and it is not a faze in your life you
most likely will use the Domino on every thing you build.

On that drawing I sent you for the night stands. The drawings don't
show it but there are Domino floating tenons in every FF joint. That
includes the back FFs lap joints. All totaled so far on these night
stands there are 40 mortises and floating tenons. Now think about
cutting 40 precise mortises with a bench top mortiser. I'm not sure I
cut 40 mortises with my mortiser total. And FWIW the mortiser chisels
have to be kept sharp, and from the factory sharp is not sharp enough.
There is a lot of friction on those chisels and you want a mirror
surface on the outside surfaces. And then the smaller bits break easily
and those are special bits.

I would advise using jigs and a router over purchasing a bench top
mortiser. Mortisers are a lot like band saws. You have to buy a good
one to get good results. Cheap does not get you there.


In thinking about my cabinet doors, Freud makes a nice router set that
makes a tenon on the rails, when done properly, but the stile still
requires a way of making a mortise.

If I understand what you are talking about,,,,,
I would strongly advise against that set up. Those sets do a good job
but you can do much better with a dado set. Unless!!!! you are looking
at a cope and stick set of bits. The problem with the tennon set/bit is
that it makes a fixed thickness tenon. Your panel probably will not fit
properly in the groves that the tenon will fit onto. Most likely the
panel will be loose.

Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

OK. That will be fine, I was thinking of a simpler set.




Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral
style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and
have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The
rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or
inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where
you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on
that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some
people might think the joint was just a box joint.

Would you mind post a picture of the back of your night stand to see?
Funny, but without seeing it, the project is not completed in my minds
eye.

There now, I have not attached the backs yet but they will fit in the
rabbet recess.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/



I cut a grove in my stiles and rails centered to accept the exact width
of the panel or plywood panel that I will be using. Cut a grove
slightly off center on the edge of a scrap. Flip the piece end for end
and cut again. This method will perfectly center the groove. Sneak up
on the fence setting until you have that groove perfect.
I cut that groove 1/2" deep


Next with a stacked dado set set the blade to cut 1/2" wide or a little
wider and use a sacrificial fence to partially bury the blade and to
index how long the tenon will be cut repeatedly. Cut both ends of the
rails on both sides and both ends to form a tenon to perfectly match the
width of the grooves on the rails and stiles.

You get this.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Which would make my life considerably easier. I realize that with the
doors comes the hinge options and once my drawings are completed the I
was going to focus on that part of it before I actually start building
the cases. I've been considering the options, and I know that where I
have drawers behind doors that I need to be sure they swing wide
enough open.

Typically with Euro style hinges you get enough clearance from the door
but you need to consider how much room the actual hinge takes up if it
is not mounted on the face of the face frame.


Funny, In the HVAC trader there are seven other trades that we have to
be fluent in. All the skill sets, and then interactions with
carpenters and the like. So I know I can do most any trade if needed,
but getting involved with wood working and its various options and
their integrations is a new animal to me. Hanging the cabinets should
be easy enough as I did that for our control jobs, but in this case I
am the one building the cabinets and responsible for their continued
usage.

Kudos' to all you guys, especially you and Karl, and others with their
niche's.




And as far as ff's go and reading
your posts it just seems like the domino is the way to go and the
hardwood tenon is far superior to the soft biscuit.

It is and the 5mm thick tenons are about 3/4" wide so the you don't have
to worry about the biscuit slot being too wide for the end of a rail.


So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

Understood.




On my cabinet/island I am putting in a 4 drawer bank, using your
idea's for the front end of the drawers and at the back end using a
vertical riser with notch's cut out to put the back end of the rail
that the drawer slide is mounted too. In design it looks fine. Using a
dado joint there could be useful as a "floating joint" to reduce any
stress.

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

A few of us have been down this road many times. ;~)

Yes, but then there are finishers, and the real finishers. Which takes
the product to a whole nut her level.

On 2/8/2016 6:16 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 16:14:09 -0800, OFWW wrote:

Yes, but then there are finishers, and the real finishers. Which takes
the product to a whole nut her level.

Lousy spell checker in Forte' and I do mean lousy! " 'nuther"


Welcome to my world. ;~)

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 19:21:05 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

OK. That will be fine, I was thinking of a simpler set.


Thanks, Makes me feel a bunch better, for now.




Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral
style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and
have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The
rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or
inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where
you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on
that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some
people might think the joint was just a box joint.

Would you mind post a picture of the back of your night stand to see?
Funny, but without seeing it, the project is not completed in my minds
eye.

There now, I have not attached the backs yet but they will fit in the
rabbet recess.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Shame on me, I never noticed the rabbet faces, Now the picture is
complete in my mind. Very nice.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:44:09 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 1:11:13 PM UTC-6, OFWW wrote:

So naturally I
drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have
enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy
for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the
move to domino's, or a suitable clone.

This is an excellent path to take. At this point, you may not have found what you really like to do in regards to woodworking. There are so many avenues to explore; When I started our framing apartments and houses, I really liked that. Then I went to work for a different company that taught me their method of building store fixtures and cabinets. This was a great way to learn and a great way to learn methods to build bomb proof cabinets with a minimum of tools. I worked with a furniture maker for a while, and started making faux antiques when they were really in fashion. That got me interested in finishing, which led me into making boxes - jewelry, humidors, etc. so I could do finer woodwork. Then about 20 years ago, I got a midi lathe, and didn't do anything but turn (except as required at work) for a few years. Wood turning got me interested in recreational wood work again.

My point is that unless you know which direction you are going, save your money on your tools and work on learning the skills in craft area you are interested in as well as learning the hand/motor skills to perform them. I have tried to help a lot of folks over the years that are interested in woodworking, and many seem to think that better tools will instantly make you have better capabilities and skills. Not so.

Personally, I think you should buy good tools, tools that don't break the bank so you can get to work immediately doing your projects. Bad tools of cheaply made tools can be actual punishment, so buy the best you can afford. They can cause you to go backwards for all kinds of reasons. They may not do the job well, they may do the job but it doesn't give satisfactory return on the time spent, or they may not have the level of repeatability that allows you to depend on an end result when using it. On the other hand, Leon stands alone in all of my compadres that own or have access to the Domino that use it. None of them use it to its capabilities, and few have ever used it on more than one or two projects.

Leon understands and designs around that tool and it has paid for itself as he uses it many times over. Even to build your skills and to understand usage, application snd skills needed, you could probably get by with different kinds of joinery. Remember, we didn't have problems with things falling apart when we used dowels, splines, loose bead, and even biscuits. Sure, the Domino is superior to all of those in speed and performance, but between homemade jigs and inexpensive guides and goodies available on the net you can learn a great deal about making joints.

I always tell people to learn what they like to do first.
Build your tool collection as your experience grows and you won't overspend. On the other hand, don't spend so much on machines that you can't afford wood or any other machines!

Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I
appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.

Smart!

Robert

I appreciate all your words of wisdom. Anyone reading it should pay
attention. There has been a few times when I bought tools for my
normal trade and shouldn't have, but it seemed like a good option at
the time.

I am in an unusual situation, and maybe not so unusual. I always
wanted to do wood working since I was a kid. Helped my dad pound nails
when I was in the third grade and saw wood with a handsaw, although it
was for a bldg. Made myself a tree fort out of some hardwood flooring
my dad had in a shed. As I recall he was not very happy about that
one.

Over the years I bought a some of the major tools for woodworking but
never had the time to do it some tools were never turned on in forty
years. Well now they are being turned on, being used. Little by
little. My super duper router bit set, which I hung onto for dear life
now turns out to be crap, they had no bearings, just bushings, no
carbide, just High speed steel, which at the time was about all there
was to buy. Only one or two bits where used and it ends up as money
down the drain, but I am not sorry I bought them as I had good
intentions.

In any event, I need to learn on what I have, like you say, and let
the project needs drive the updating on tools. I have also been buying
some good books on Joints and I totally love the feeling of good hand
tools. My power tools are aligned, lubed, and in good shape. I don't
know if I will be able to reach the skill levels of Karl, Leon,
Yourself and others here, but it won't be from lack of trying and
doing.

Thanks again for your post!

On 2/8/2016 6:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral
style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and
have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The
rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or
inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where
you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on
that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some
people might think the joint was just a box joint.

Made many hundreds of cabinet doors down through they years. Just some
observations from that experience:

Starting with basics, the single most important ingredient in making
_serviceable_ doors is to _religiously_ insist on straight grained,
perfectly flat, milled and dimensioned stock ... no exceptions.

You will also need the skill, experience, and ability to read the
various woods and their grain well enough to predict what that stock
will do in the future. In short, bowed, warped and twisted material, now
or in the future, is not conducive to making serviceable doors that will
last.

Unless you have the tools and practical expertise to chose and mill your
stock, you will most assuredly end up buying much more S4S stock than
you need, with the result that much will end up as waste; and your
cost/benefit will ratio suffer ... and that is a much more likely
occurrence with a DIY door project.

Despite the nice bit advertisements, home shop router setups are rarely
sturdy, accurate and repeatable enough to cut a full set of doors
without repeated setups, and trial and error tweaks, meaning more wasted
material, with often undesirable end results.

YMMV, but I have tried, and failed more times before I got the results I
truly wanted.

I still make a fair number of doors, but I only do those that I can do
cost effectively, have the tools and experience to make, and that I can
reasonably expect will stand the test of time.

The majority of doors I make these days are of the flat panel style,
made with stub tenon joinery, on the table saw.

The same methodology Leon explained in an earlier post. We both do many
of our doors that way for a reason ... we try to do what we have the
expertise, material, and tools to reasonably expect serviceable results.

Although nothing ventured, nothing gained ... be aware that it will take
a lot more than a set of advertised router bits to obtain the advertised
results, guaranteed.

Might want to round up all aspects of what it takes to make a few stub
tenon doors, and gain some experience in making a few serviceable doors
before becoming more ambitious in that regard.

Another option, and one I use quite often these days myself.

I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize in
cabinet doors, and therefore has the material, the tools, and the
experience to make doors much more inexpensively than you, or I.

Although though it possible to do it yourself, there is no shame, and
prudence often dictates finishing up a well made set of cabinetry,
carefully crafted in a particular style, with a professionally made set
of doors, equally carefully crafted in that style.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/9/16 10:39 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/8/2016 6:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make
cathedral style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use
glass and have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the
two doors. The rest of the doors I would rather not have raised
panels, but flush or inset, where you can see a small grove on the
back of the panel where you can see part of the normal tenon. I
hope I am clear enough on that. I also like the hidden tenon
option, but if it is not seen some people might think the joint was
just a box joint.

Made many hundreds of cabinet doors down through they years. Just
some observations from that experience:

Starting with basics, the single most important ingredient in making
_serviceable_ doors is to _religiously_ insist on straight grained,
perfectly flat, milled and dimensioned stock ... no exceptions.

You will also need the skill, experience, and ability to read the
various woods and their grain well enough to predict what that stock
will do in the future. In short, bowed, warped and twisted material,
now or in the future, is not conducive to making serviceable doors
that will last.

Unless you have the tools and practical expertise to chose and mill
your stock, you will most assuredly end up buying much more S4S stock
than you need, with the result that much will end up as waste; and
your cost/benefit will ratio suffer ... and that is a much more
likely occurrence with a DIY door project.

Despite the nice bit advertisements, home shop router setups are
rarely sturdy, accurate and repeatable enough to cut a full set of
doors without repeated setups, and trial and error tweaks, meaning
more wasted material, with often undesirable end results.

YMMV, but I have tried, and failed more times before I got the
results I truly wanted.

I still make a fair number of doors, but I only do those that I can
do cost effectively, have the tools and experience to make, and that
I can reasonably expect will stand the test of time.

The majority of doors I make these days are of the flat panel style,
made with stub tenon joinery, on the table saw.

The same methodology Leon explained in an earlier post. We both do
many of our doors that way for a reason ... we try to do what we
have the expertise, material, and tools to reasonably expect
serviceable results.

Although nothing ventured, nothing gained ... be aware that it will
take a lot more than a set of advertised router bits to obtain the
advertised results, guaranteed.

Might want to round up all aspects of what it takes to make a few
stub tenon doors, and gain some experience in making a few
serviceable doors before becoming more ambitious in that regard.

Another option, and one I use quite often these days myself.

I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize
in cabinet doors, and therefore has the material, the tools, and the
experience to make doors much more inexpensively than you, or I.

Although though it possible to do it yourself, there is no shame, and
prudence often dictates finishing up a well made set of cabinetry,
carefully crafted in a particular style, with a professionally made
set of doors, equally carefully crafted in that style.


There are so many door/drawer front makers on the internet now, too.
However, unless someone could recommend a great one, I would hesitate
buying doors from them except possibly for primed, paint grade doors.

A friend of mine bought replacement doors from one of these internet
sites and it was embarrassing to be in the room when I saw them. They
were so proud of their "new" kitchen and the bargain they got.

The doors looked like they came from the same place that sells those
leftover boxes of hardwood flooring. None of the grain matched, there
were sapwood and heartwood rails and stiles mixed so much that they
looked like different species of wood on the same door. Huge gaps in
the joinery-- some with out-of-square cuts. Orange-peeled finish on the
fronts of some of the doors. I just had to stand there and smile and
nod my head with a sick feeling in my gut.

I would to find a reputable on-line source for doors and fronts because
all the cabinet shops around here are either out of business or don't
sell to other installers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 3:00:23 AM UTC-6, OFWW wrote:

I appreciate all your words of wisdom. Anyone reading it should pay
attention. There has been a few times when I bought tools for my
normal trade and shouldn't have, but it seemed like a good option at
the time.

Thanks... but rereading it, it could have been more clear. That's what happens when you are typing and answering the phone!

We have all bought tools we didn't need to begin with, or no longer need. We have all bought tools that we simply "want". (Nothing wrong with that!) It is a lovely feeling to pick up a tool and think "man, I really like using that XXX", and it makes you smile when you use it.

little. My super duper router bit set, which I hung onto for dear life
now turns out to be crap, they had no bearings, just bushings, no
carbide, just High speed steel, which at the time was about all there
was to buy. Only one or two bits where used and it ends up as money
down the drain, but I am not sorry I bought them as I had good
intentions.

NOT money down the drain. If for no other reason, they guilted you into using them so you could get going with your router! I have a of router bits for different uses, and over the years (starting in 1975) have used my share of steel bits. Nothing wrong with them. They don't hold an edge as well, and they don't have all the fancy profiles we have come to expect, but they work fine. I used to buy SEARS router bits (made by Stanley) back in the 70s, and we would use them a lot and just figured that we would be doing a little more cleanup sanding at the end of the bit's life. Don't know if anyone here has been doing this long enough to remember this, but working in the shop we used to take the blade off the table saw every night and put it in a tray of kerosene. When we were doing dadoes, rabbets and edging profiles (all we used a router for) we would drop the bits in the tray as well. By morning, we could take a toothbrush and clean off all the resin and glue buildup easily. Clean bits and blades last surprisingly well!

In any event, I need to learn on what I have, like you say, and let
the project needs drive the updating on tools. I have also been buying
some good books on Joints and I totally love the feeling of good hand
tools.

You know, at the encouragement of some of my older buddies, I have considered putting together a video or some sort of instruction on how we used to build cabinets without a shop or even a lot of tools. A router, a good circular saw, a drill, pipe clamps and a miter saw were all we used, and we turned out good cabinets, completely serviceable and some even pretty!

At this point, if I were you, I would be enjoying the ride. I started like you by nailing old pieces of scrap together, taking pieces of this or that out of the trash to make things using my Dad's forbidden tools when he wasn't around. For years, I was totally enthralled with wood working and took shop classes and worked on some of the neighbor's projects. The very worst and at the same time best thing to happen was for me to do woodworking professionally, full time as a trade. Eventually, you get tired of anything, and then when you have to do it to pay your bills, it is work. No longer fun.

My power tools are aligned, lubed, and in good shape. I don't
know if I will be able to reach the skill levels of Karl, Leon,
Yourself and others here, but it won't be from lack of trying and
doing.

I wouldn't give that another thought for a couple of reasons. First, if YOU enjoy it and you feel like things are going well, to hell with everyone else! I know Karl and Leon both well enough to know that without being the slightest bit patronizing, they feel the same way.

You may never be as good, but on the other hand, you might be better! You might never be as good because you cannot have the same opportunity to do the same task over and over until you get it right (and in turn finally get paid) for doing a certain task. When I bid the woodworking part of a job that I will be doing as a contractor, I bid it to be accomplished in the most expeditious manner, with the best results (a result I can put my name on), never with a thought of any kind of enjoyment. I have little love for woodworking anymore. So be thankful that you don't have the practice it takes to excel.

On the other hand, I have seen some really good, a few things excellent from hobbyists. The difference? The good craftsmen take the time to get their projects as perfect as they can, and learn more every time they make something. They have a passion (that 40+ years of doing something burns out)to learn, enjoy and try new things. Every little detail has been addressed with consideration and the executed to the best of their abilities. I have actually seen hobby/project guys that turn out work better than "professionals". The big difference I have observed is that they still love what they are doing enough to take the time to get it right. They might easily take 5 times longer than a "pro" to do the same task, but in the end they get a great result.

Thanks again for your post!

It was just meant to be a bit of encouragement. Too many times I have seen hobby guys sit inert because they didn't have this or that tool. Hang around here and post your questions or remarks, and ask for help when you need it. You won't find a better resource on the 'net for advice than here. Still quite a few folks that hang out here that have a huge amount of experience.

Robert

On 2/9/2016 11:30 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/9/16 10:39 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/8/2016 6:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make
cathedral style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use
glass and have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the
two doors. The rest of the doors I would rather not have raised
panels, but flush or inset, where you can see a small grove on the
back of the panel where you can see part of the normal tenon. I
hope I am clear enough on that. I also like the hidden tenon
option, but if it is not seen some people might think the joint was
just a box joint.

Made many hundreds of cabinet doors down through they years. Just
some observations from that experience:

Starting with basics, the single most important ingredient in making
_serviceable_ doors is to _religiously_ insist on straight grained,
perfectly flat, milled and dimensioned stock ... no exceptions.

You will also need the skill, experience, and ability to read the
various woods and their grain well enough to predict what that stock
will do in the future. In short, bowed, warped and twisted material,
now or in the future, is not conducive to making serviceable doors
that will last.

Unless you have the tools and practical expertise to chose and mill
your stock, you will most assuredly end up buying much more S4S stock
than you need, with the result that much will end up as waste; and
your cost/benefit will ratio suffer ... and that is a much more
likely occurrence with a DIY door project.

Despite the nice bit advertisements, home shop router setups are
rarely sturdy, accurate and repeatable enough to cut a full set of
doors without repeated setups, and trial and error tweaks, meaning
more wasted material, with often undesirable end results.

YMMV, but I have tried, and failed more times before I got the
results I truly wanted.

I still make a fair number of doors, but I only do those that I can
do cost effectively, have the tools and experience to make, and that
I can reasonably expect will stand the test of time.

The majority of doors I make these days are of the flat panel style,
made with stub tenon joinery, on the table saw.

The same methodology Leon explained in an earlier post. We both do
many of our doors that way for a reason ... we try to do what we
have the expertise, material, and tools to reasonably expect
serviceable results.

Although nothing ventured, nothing gained ... be aware that it will
take a lot more than a set of advertised router bits to obtain the
advertised results, guaranteed.

Might want to round up all aspects of what it takes to make a few
stub tenon doors, and gain some experience in making a few
serviceable doors before becoming more ambitious in that regard.

Another option, and one I use quite often these days myself.

I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize
in cabinet doors, and therefore has the material, the tools, and the
experience to make doors much more inexpensively than you, or I.

Although though it possible to do it yourself, there is no shame, and
prudence often dictates finishing up a well made set of cabinetry,
carefully crafted in a particular style, with a professionally made
set of doors, equally carefully crafted in that style.


There are so many door/drawer front makers on the internet now, too.
However, unless someone could recommend a great one, I would hesitate
buying doors from them except possibly for primed, paint grade doors.

A friend of mine bought replacement doors from one of these internet
sites and it was embarrassing to be in the room when I saw them. They
were so proud of their "new" kitchen and the bargain they got.

The doors looked like they came from the same place that sells those
leftover boxes of hardwood flooring. None of the grain matched, there
were sapwood and heartwood rails and stiles mixed so much that they
looked like different species of wood on the same door. Huge gaps in
the joinery-- some with out-of-square cuts. Orange-peeled finish on the
fronts of some of the doors. I just had to stand there and smile and
nod my head with a sick feeling in my gut.

I would to find a reputable on-line source for doors and fronts because
all the cabinet shops around here are either out of business or don't
sell to other installers.





And just to sum up a lot of these conversations, quality is always in style.

A well built plain door is more impressive to look at than a fancy door
that is of less quality.

On 2/9/2016 11:30 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/9/16 10:39 AM, Swingman wrote:


I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize
in cabinet doors

I would to find a reputable on-line source for doors and fronts because
all the cabinet shops around here are either out of business or don't
sell to other installers.

When it comes to doors and drawer fronts, I would make them before I'd
buy them sight unseen.

Have never had a problem finding/buying doors from a shop specializing
in cabinet doors, but that might be a regional thing. Around here it's a
specialized business, and they're more than happy to get yours.

Doubt if he ships, because Robert personally measures up himself, but he
can only say no:

http://www.cabinetdoorshouston.com/

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:39:56 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/8/2016 6:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral
style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and
have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The
rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or
inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where
you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on
that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some
people might think the joint was just a box joint.

Made many hundreds of cabinet doors down through they years. Just some
observations from that experience:

Starting with basics, the single most important ingredient in making
_serviceable_ doors is to _religiously_ insist on straight grained,
perfectly flat, milled and dimensioned stock ... no exceptions.

Are you speaking of S4S? I have found boards supposedly like that and
the only way they could say that was because to boards were cut down
to shadows of their former selves. We have a couple hardwood inside
lumber stores that I was planning on using for that as well as the ff.

Even Woodcraft sucked with what little they stock, and the box stores
only sell unfinished "Bows" IYKWIM.

You will also need the skill, experience, and ability to read the
various woods and their grain well enough to predict what that stock
will do in the future. In short, bowed, warped and twisted material, now
or in the future, is not conducive to making serviceable doors that will
last.


There I am learning still from the end grain, and also from what
little stock I have at home. Related to this is the center of the
door, the panels. I have read that it is better to join boards rather
than use just one (like for raised panels) to eliminate warping, and
best to use a good plywood, but then my options are reduced to a flat
panel from what little I know, but a very stable door over the years
that way. If so I could still make the cathedral frame I would
imagine.

In all of this the end product is to be painted white per the boss,
and Leon did mention a while back two different woods that would show
very little grain when painted. Wouldn't it be possible to M&T the
door frame with the arched top? Any additional thoughts would be
appreciated.


Unless you have the tools and practical expertise to chose and mill your
stock, you will most assuredly end up buying much more S4S stock than
you need, with the result that much will end up as waste; and your
cost/benefit will ratio suffer ... and that is a much more likely
occurrence with a DIY door project.

I do have a 6" jointer/planer, a 12" planer that I am working the
kinks out of, and of course a TS, BS, etc, along with a few planes,
and hand tools, plus a router table, cast iron, but I am going to
build a larger one soon. So it wouldn't cost much to try and see how
it goes. I have been keeping track of the costs since if I can find a
really decent set of cabinets for not much more than the wood it would
seem foolish to let pride stand in the way.

Despite the nice bit advertisements, home shop router setups are rarely
sturdy, accurate and repeatable enough to cut a full set of doors
without repeated setups, and trial and error tweaks, meaning more wasted
material, with often undesirable end results.

YMMV, but I have tried, and failed more times before I got the results I
truly wanted.


I have noticed that most of the router slop is in the housings
allowing the motor assy to shift about 3/1000 of an inch, side to
side, and in one case it was the router motor bearings themselves that
were at fault. I was making a simple art frame easel, double sided,
for my grand kids when I first noticed the inconsistency that you are
speaking of. The flip clamp on those that have a split base helps to
lock it in place.

Seems like you are saying a router is fine for decorations, not for
fitment.?

I still make a fair number of doors, but I only do those that I can do
cost effectively, have the tools and experience to make, and that I can
reasonably expect will stand the test of time.

The majority of doors I make these days are of the flat panel style,
made with stub tenon joinery, on the table saw.

The same methodology Leon explained in an earlier post. We both do many
of our doors that way for a reason ... we try to do what we have the
expertise, material, and tools to reasonably expect serviceable results.

Although nothing ventured, nothing gained ... be aware that it will take
a lot more than a set of advertised router bits to obtain the advertised
results, guaranteed.


In all seriousness it wouldn't break my heart to stay away from that
particular router bit setup, do to all the variations one needs to
adjust the bit to, just to make a hidden tenon. And it would strike me
that the most reasonable way would be to buy several sets of them so
you could have each bit permanently set for each phase of the Job, but
then I'd of spent half the money for a domino tool and only be able to
use the bits just from cabinet door joints.

Might want to round up all aspects of what it takes to make a few stub
tenon doors, and gain some experience in making a few serviceable doors
before becoming more ambitious in that regard.


Yes, I was planning on making a few "toy' doors of whatever variety to
set up a plan of attack as well as increase my comfort level with the
processes.

Another option, and one I use quite often these days myself.

I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize in
cabinet doors, and therefore has the material, the tools, and the
experience to make doors much more inexpensively than you, or I.


Like Mike said, good luck with that! But yes, I would go to looking

Although though it possible to do it yourself, there is no shame, and
prudence often dictates finishing up a well made set of cabinetry,
carefully crafted in a particular style, with a professionally made set
of doors, equally carefully crafted in that style.

Certainly something to consider, for sure. Just getting the right wood
alone would be half the battle.

On 2/9/2016 5:54 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:39:56 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/8/2016 6:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet
doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlCC9SsdMNY#t=15

Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral
style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and
have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The
rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or
inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where
you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on
that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some
people might think the joint was just a box joint.

Made many hundreds of cabinet doors down through they years. Just some
observations from that experience:

Starting with basics, the single most important ingredient in making
_serviceable_ doors is to _religiously_ insist on straight grained,
perfectly flat, milled and dimensioned stock ... no exceptions.

Are you speaking of S4S? I have found boards supposedly like that and
the only way they could say that was because to boards were cut down
to shadows of their former selves. We have a couple hardwood inside
lumber stores that I was planning on using for that as well as the ff.

If you have the ability now to surface your material to a consistent
thickness there is S2S, S3S, S2SR1, to name a few. Years ago I bought
S2S to save money. Now that I sell most of what I build so I opt for
S4S and pass the added cost on to the customer. It requires too much of
my time to buy random width and hunt for which pieces can come out of
which stock. S4S delivers to me precisely 3/4" thick, not 13/16", and
the same width. My optimization programs take over from there.

S4S is typically the best but not guaranteed to be flat or straight. I
go to the lumber yard and hand pick each piece. And typically the
lumber yard is going to have the better pricing and quality.



Even Woodcraft sucked with what little they stock, and the box stores
only sell unfinished "Bows" IYKWIM.

Look at the local lumber yards.




You will also need the skill, experience, and ability to read the
various woods and their grain well enough to predict what that stock
will do in the future. In short, bowed, warped and twisted material, now
or in the future, is not conducive to making serviceable doors that will
last.


There I am learning still from the end grain, and also from what
little stock I have at home. Related to this is the center of the
door, the panels. I have read that it is better to join boards rather
than use just one (like for raised panels) to eliminate warping, and
best to use a good plywood, but then my options are reduced to a flat
panel from what little I know, but a very stable door over the years
that way. If so I could still make the cathedral frame I would
imagine.

If you are talking about solid wood panels it is difficult to find and
or not economical to pay a premium to go with a single solid piece of
wood for a panel. Assuming that the panel is going to be more than
8~10" wide. So gluing up is going to be how most go. IMHO a wide solid
panel is not likely to warp if it has not already done so. It will be
important to seal all edges and front and back so that it does not
absorb moisture more in one area than the other. I try to finish as
soon after milling especially if changing the thickness or if I make the
panels into raised panels. And if you change the thickness try to take
an even amount from both sides. I have seen wood warp pretty quickly in
humid conditions when I only resurface one side.

Optionally you can go with plywood as this material is very stable but
you are limited to plain flat unless you added some trim moldings to
dress it up.

One other thing to consider with your doors that will receive glass. I
build my glass door frames very similar to the way I build my cabinet
back face frames. I use a lap joint for the corners and have recessed
rabbet on the back side. Then I let my glass guy cut the glass and use
a silicone like caulk sealant to glue the glass in place. No need for
moldings to hold it in place and not glass rattle and the glass helps to
stiffen up the door.


BUT as Swingman said, you are going to be doing special milling on these
door parts. Consistent thickness, straight and flat stock helps you to
mill correctly and gives much better results. It is always best to use
flat straight stock but especially on a door.




In all of this the end product is to be painted white per the boss,
and Leon did mention a while back two different woods that would show
very little grain when painted. Wouldn't it be possible to M&T the
door frame with the arched top? Any additional thoughts would be
appreciated.

Certainly or use the method I described earlier. Just cut your arch
after cutting your mortises and or cutting the tenons on the ends of the
rails.





Unless you have the tools and practical expertise to chose and mill your
stock, you will most assuredly end up buying much more S4S stock than
you need, with the result that much will end up as waste; and your
cost/benefit will ratio suffer ... and that is a much more likely
occurrence with a DIY door project.

I do have a 6" jointer/planer, a 12" planer that I am working the
kinks out of, and of course a TS, BS, etc, along with a few planes,
and hand tools, plus a router table, cast iron, but I am going to
build a larger one soon. So it wouldn't cost much to try and see how
it goes. I have been keeping track of the costs since if I can find a
really decent set of cabinets for not much more than the wood it would
seem foolish to let pride stand in the way.

With the jointer and planer you can buy rough cut wood but I would
advise to buy all of your wood up front with room for waste and mill
everything at the same time. You do not want to have to go back and
surface plane a couple more boards and be trying to get the exact same
thickness.





Despite the nice bit advertisements, home shop router setups are rarely
sturdy, accurate and repeatable enough to cut a full set of doors
without repeated setups, and trial and error tweaks, meaning more wasted
material, with often undesirable end results.

YMMV, but I have tried, and failed more times before I got the results I
truly wanted.


I have noticed that most of the router slop is in the housings
allowing the motor assy to shift about 3/1000 of an inch, side to
side, and in one case it was the router motor bearings themselves that
were at fault. I was making a simple art frame easel, double sided,
for my grand kids when I first noticed the inconsistency that you are
speaking of. The flip clamp on those that have a split base helps to
lock it in place.

Seems like you are saying a router is fine for decorations, not for
fitment.?

A router is fine for cutting tenons, groves for narrow plywood panels
not so much. This was what I used before getting a nice dado set. Now
the router set is more trouble unless you simply can't use anything else
such as the rail and stile bit sets.



I still make a fair number of doors, but I only do those that I can do
cost effectively, have the tools and experience to make, and that I can
reasonably expect will stand the test of time.

The majority of doors I make these days are of the flat panel style,
made with stub tenon joinery, on the table saw.

The same methodology Leon explained in an earlier post. We both do many
of our doors that way for a reason ... we try to do what we have the
expertise, material, and tools to reasonably expect serviceable results.

Although nothing ventured, nothing gained ... be aware that it will take
a lot more than a set of advertised router bits to obtain the advertised
results, guaranteed.


In all seriousness it wouldn't break my heart to stay away from that
particular router bit setup, do to all the variations one needs to
adjust the bit to, just to make a hidden tenon. And it would strike me
that the most reasonable way would be to buy several sets of them so
you could have each bit permanently set for each phase of the Job, but
then I'd of spent half the money for a domino tool and only be able to
use the bits just from cabinet door joints.

There is that and also router bit simply do not stay sharp very long and
when matched sets are resharpened they don't often produces results like
they did when new. Those 2 or 3 carbide cutters on each bit are
removing a lot of material. And it should go with out saying you want
to be using 1/2" shank bits when ever possible.





Might want to round up all aspects of what it takes to make a few stub
tenon doors, and gain some experience in making a few serviceable doors
before becoming more ambitious in that regard.


Yes, I was planning on making a few "toy' doors of whatever variety to
set up a plan of attack as well as increase my comfort level with the
processes.

Another option, and one I use quite often these days myself.

I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize in
cabinet doors, and therefore has the material, the tools, and the
experience to make doors much more inexpensively than you, or I.


Like Mike said, good luck with that! But yes, I would go to looking

Although though it possible to do it yourself, there is no shame, and
prudence often dictates finishing up a well made set of cabinetry,
carefully crafted in a particular style, with a professionally made set
of doors, equally carefully crafted in that style.

Certainly something to consider, for sure. Just getting the right wood
alone would be half the battle.

Yes it is. ;~)

OFWW wrote:

In all of this the end product is to be painted white per the boss,
and Leon did mention a while back two different woods that would show
very little grain when painted.

IMO, your biggest problem is not going to be making the things, it will be
the finishing. I'm assuming, since they are for the kitchen and that you
will want gloss or semi-gloss. I'm also assuming, given the amount of work
to get to that point, that you will want a close to flawless paint job.
Very tough to do.

I have yet to encounter a wood that won't show grain when painted. I have
yet to find a router bit that will leave a paintable surface. In reality,
the wood used doesn't make much difference because you need a flawless
surface on TOP of the wood before you paint and to do that you need a high
build, easy sanding primer, maybe some filler* too. Years ago,when I was
living on my sailboat, Interlux had a (pricy) gem. No longer available,
best I have currently found is this...
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home...s/&N=759705555

It needs to be sanded PERFECTLY smooth and it is hard to tell when the
sanding is perfect. Fingers and ears** are better than eyes. 3M flexible
sanding sponges help a lot on curvy areas. Once sanded, a color coat which
is then sanded off can help show primed areas that need more work.

When ready for the final topcoats, spray is needed. If you topcoat with an
oil base paint, it can be rubbed out and polished; ditto white lacquer. Not
much oil paint anymore, acrylic sands like bubble gum. Rattle cans will
work.
_______________________

*you can make a good filler with shellac and talc

** ears because you can hear the difference (when sanding) between sanded
and unsanded areas. With a mechanical sander, there is a difference in the
way the sander moves.

On 2/10/16 10:30 AM, dadiOH wrote:
OFWW wrote:

In all of this the end product is to be painted white per the boss,
and Leon did mention a while back two different woods that would show
very little grain when painted.

IMO, your biggest problem is not going to be making the things, it will be
the finishing. I'm assuming, since they are for the kitchen and that you
will want gloss or semi-gloss. I'm also assuming, given the amount of work
to get to that point, that you will want a close to flawless paint job.
Very tough to do.

I have yet to encounter a wood that won't show grain when painted. I have
yet to find a router bit that will leave a paintable surface. In reality,
the wood used doesn't make much difference because you need a flawless
surface on TOP of the wood before you paint and to do that you need a high
build, easy sanding primer, maybe some filler* too. Years ago,when I was
living on my sailboat, Interlux had a (pricy) gem. No longer available,
best I have currently found is this...
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home...s/&N=759705555


They way you described this I thought it must be their version of
Zinsser BIN which is shellac based. But in reading the tech notes, I
saw nothing about shellac.

I learned about BIN in here and it is my go-to primer when I need a
super smooth surface over wood that can be "level sanded."

Question: Have you used BIN and if so, how does it stack up against
this product?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
On 2/10/16 10:30 AM, dadiOH wrote:
OFWW wrote:

In all of this the end product is to be painted white per the boss,
and Leon did mention a while back two different woods that would
show very little grain when painted.

IMO, your biggest problem is not going to be making the things, it
will be the finishing. I'm assuming, since they are for the kitchen and
that you will want gloss or semi-gloss. I'm also assuming, given the
amount
of work to get to that point, that you will want a close to flawless
paint
job. Very tough to do.

I have yet to encounter a wood that won't show grain when painted. I have
yet to find a router bit that will leave a paintable surface. In
reality, the wood used doesn't make much difference because you need a
flawless surface on TOP of the wood before you paint and to do that you
need
a high build, easy sanding primer, maybe some filler* too. Years
ago,when
I was living on my sailboat, Interlux had a (pricy) gem. No longer
available, best I have currently found is this...
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home...s/&N=759705555


They way you described this I thought it must be their version of
Zinsser BIN which is shellac based. But in reading the tech notes, I
saw nothing about shellac.

I learned about BIN in here and it is my go-to primer when I need a
super smooth surface over wood that can be "level sanded."

Question: Have you used BIN and if so, how does it stack up against
this product?

It is water base. I have used BIN but it has been so long ago that I can't
make a valid comparison. I can tell you that...

1. this has a LOT of talc (very heavy)

2. dries to sandable in about 2 hours or less, depending on thickness, temp,
humidity, etc.

3. self levels fairly well

4. sticks well

5.sands to powder easily.

Buy a quart and see. I'd like to know how it compares to BIN too

dadiOH wrote:

Also, I got on to it when I was making black face frames. It is very thick
in the can, I watered it way down for the FF so I could spray it with Preval
cans. The FF were already in decent shape, a thin coat meant less sanding
and worked fine.


They way you described this I thought it must be their version of
Zinsser BIN which is shellac based. But in reading the tech notes,
I saw nothing about shellac.

I learned about BIN in here and it is my go-to primer when I need a
super smooth surface over wood that can be "level sanded."

Question: Have you used BIN and if so, how does it stack up against
this product?

It is water base. I have used BIN but it has been so long ago that I
can't make a valid comparison. I can tell you that...

1. this has a LOT of talc (very heavy)

2. dries to sandable in about 2 hours or less, depending on
thickness, temp, humidity, etc.

3. self levels fairly well

4. sticks well

5.sands to powder easily.

Buy a quart and see. I'd like to know how it compares to BIN too

dadiOH wrote:

1. this has a LOT of talc (very heavy)

Whoops, no talc, calcium carbonate. That works too

On 2/10/2016 11:29 AM, dadiOH wrote:

It is water base. I have used BIN but it has been so long ago that I can't
make a valid comparison. I can tell you that...

BIN, sprayed with HVLP on plywood and poplar:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...50052432712850

(scroll to right to see the painted surface)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:30:08 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

OFWW wrote:

In all of this the end product is to be painted white per the boss,
and Leon did mention a while back two different woods that would show
very little grain when painted.

IMO, your biggest problem is not going to be making the things, it will be
the finishing. I'm assuming, since they are for the kitchen and that you
will want gloss or semi-gloss. I'm also assuming, given the amount of work
to get to that point, that you will want a close to flawless paint job.
Very tough to do.

I have yet to encounter a wood that won't show grain when painted. I have
yet to find a router bit that will leave a paintable surface. In reality,
the wood used doesn't make much difference because you need a flawless
surface on TOP of the wood before you paint and to do that you need a high
build, easy sanding primer, maybe some filler* too. Years ago,when I was
living on my sailboat, Interlux had a (pricy) gem. No longer available,
best I have currently found is this...
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home...s/&N=759705555

It needs to be sanded PERFECTLY smooth and it is hard to tell when the
sanding is perfect. Fingers and ears** are better than eyes. 3M flexible
sanding sponges help a lot on curvy areas. Once sanded, a color coat which
is then sanded off can help show primed areas that need more work.

When ready for the final topcoats, spray is needed. If you topcoat with an
oil base paint, it can be rubbed out and polished; ditto white lacquer. Not
much oil paint anymore, acrylic sands like bubble gum. Rattle cans will
work.
_______________________

*you can make a good filler with shellac and talc

** ears because you can hear the difference (when sanding) between sanded
and unsanded areas. With a mechanical sander, there is a difference in the
way the sander moves.

Thanks for the link and the info. I saved it for future use.

When reading the recommendations I saw the comments on Zinnso (SP)
primer, and the one that sanded like bubble gum. I called them on that
product because it never "set up" after two weeks it was still tacky
and the paint would just roll when sanded. Supposedly the tackiness
was to allow the top coats to bond much better, and they did have
another sealer, primer to use, somewhere in my notes I should still
have their recommendations on how to get the primer off, and use the
other version. I was fit to be tied, lost a month on that project.

On 2/10/16 11:54 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/10/2016 11:29 AM, dadiOH wrote:

It is water base. I have used BIN but it has been so long ago that
I can't make a valid comparison. I can tell you that...

BIN, sprayed with HVLP on plywood and poplar:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...50052432712850



(scroll to right to see the painted surface)


I remember those picture when BIN was first suggested to me.
I used it (still do) to prime and paint the cut edges of high grade MDF
panels.
I was very impressed with how it soaked in, hardened, and sanded smooth
on the cut "end grain" edges. I think I could've stopped at two coats
but probably went to four on some edges, simply because it dried so
fast. It builds up nicely and obviously takes paint as well as anything.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/10/16 11:54 AM, Swingman wrote:

I remember those picture when BIN was first suggested to me.
I used it (still do) to prime and paint the cut edges of high grade MDF
panels.
I was very impressed with how it soaked in, hardened, and sanded smooth
on the cut "end grain" edges. I think I could've stopped at two coats
but probably went to four on some edges, simply because it dried so
fast. It builds up nicely and obviously takes paint as well as anything.

Just a comment, Mike. Hopefully a helpful one!

BIN is my favorite primer and has been my go to for many years. SW has finally come out with a valid competitor, but that's another post.

BIN is NOT a building finish. In fact, too much BIN is a very bad thing. When applied properly, BIN is a semi-permeable finish that allows the top coats of finish to penetrate it (also known as a bondable substrate) and get to the surface underneath. It is tempting to build with BIN because it sands so easily, but that is not it's purpose.

In fact, Rustoleum/BIN recommends only one coat applied at about 3mm, to finish out at around 1.5mm when dried. I had it on good authority from someone I trusted that too much BIN would foul the top coat's abrasion resistance (substrate too soft)and that it would also diminish the ability of the top coat to bond as paint couldn't penetrate the multiple coats of BIN. I didn't believe it.

However, back in the lab (several houses and years ago after spraying out cabinets) I decided to try that idea out on scraps as it was certainly easy enough to do. Now I believe it; take it from me, it's true in both cases. Mike Marlow and I have discussed the value of reading the application info as well as the MSDS many, many times. I remember I went to the site, and there it was in writing that Rust/BIN recommends only on coat of product.

If find yourself in a project where you need some pore/grain/rough surface filling, I would strongly recommend this product.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/docu.../035777655733/

I have used it extensively. The amount of solids per gallon works out to about 75% more (!!!!) than in BIN and part of its design intent is to be a filler/primer. Like BIN solvent base, this has titanium dioxide as its filler material, so it sands very well and looks like BIN when applied. You can roll this easily, brush it or spray it. If you spray, use a large tip gun and plenty of pressure as this isn't a job for HVLP. Also, the lower viscosity and high amount of solids can be a gun eater, so I shoot mine out of an inexpensive CAS gun from HF, and it shoots very well.

Just a quick warning on the BIN solvent based product.

Robert

On 2/10/16 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/10/16 11:54 AM, Swingman wrote:

I remember those picture when BIN was first suggested to me. I used
it (still do) to prime and paint the cut edges of high grade MDF
panels. I was very impressed with how it soaked in, hardened, and
sanded smooth on the cut "end grain" edges. I think I could've
stopped at two coats but probably went to four on some edges,
simply because it dried so fast. It builds up nicely and obviously
takes paint as well as anything.

Just a comment, Mike. Hopefully a helpful one!

BIN is my favorite primer and has been my go to for many years. SW
has finally come out with a valid competitor, but that's another
post.

BIN is NOT a building finish. In fact, too much BIN is a very bad
thing. When applied properly, BIN is a semi-permeable finish that
allows the top coats of finish to penetrate it (also known as a
bondable substrate) and get to the surface underneath. It is
tempting to build with BIN because it sands so easily, but that is
not it's purpose.

In fact, Rustoleum/BIN recommends only one coat applied at about 3mm,
to finish out at around 1.5mm when dried. I had it on good authority
from someone I trusted that too much BIN would foul the top coat's
abrasion resistance (substrate too soft)and that it would also
diminish the ability of the top coat to bond as paint couldn't
penetrate the multiple coats of BIN. I didn't believe it.

However, back in the lab (several houses and years ago after spraying
out cabinets) I decided to try that idea out on scraps as it was
certainly easy enough to do. Now I believe it; take it from me, it's
true in both cases. Mike Marlow and I have discussed the value of
reading the application info as well as the MSDS many, many times. I
remember I went to the site, and there it was in writing that
Rust/BIN recommends only on coat of product.

If find yourself in a project where you need some pore/grain/rough
surface filling, I would strongly recommend this product.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/docu.../035777655733/

I have used it extensively. The amount of solids per gallon works
out to about 75% more (!!!!) than in BIN and part of its design
intent is to be a filler/primer. Like BIN solvent base, this has
titanium dioxide as its filler material, so it sands very well and
looks like BIN when applied. You can roll this easily, brush it or
spray it. If you spray, use a large tip gun and plenty of pressure
as this isn't a job for HVLP. Also, the lower viscosity and high
amount of solids can be a gun eater, so I shoot mine out of an
inexpensive CAS gun from HF, and it shoots very well.

Just a quick warning on the BIN solvent based product.

Robert


^^^^ MORE great info from this guy, here. ^^^^
Thanks, Robert, I didn't know about the one-coat thing with BIN.
It's never been a problem so far, but if I need to build again in the
future I'll try the SW.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

" wrote in
:

*snip*
In fact, Rustoleum/BIN recommends only one coat applied at about 3mm,
to finish out at around 1.5mm when dried. I had it on good authority
from someone I trusted that too much BIN would foul the top coat's
abrasion resistance (substrate too soft)and that it would also
diminish the ability of the top coat to bond as paint couldn't
penetrate the multiple coats of BIN. I didn't believe it.

*snip*

Robert

3mm is just shy of 1/8". Did you mean 3 mil?

Puckdropper

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 8:45:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:

3mm is just shy of 1/8". Did you mean 3 mil?

Puckdropper

I absolutely did! Thanks for correcting that. I have had guns on the brain lately due to some recent activities, and everything was mm, not mil.

Robert

On 2/11/2016 12:32 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 8:45:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:

3mm is just shy of 1/8". Did you mean 3 mil?

Puckdropper

I absolutely did! Thanks for correcting that. I have had guns on the brain lately due to some recent activities, and everything was mm, not mil.

Robert



Damn!I have a lot of sanding to do to remove most of that 3mm now.

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:10:26 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
On 2/11/2016 12:32 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 8:45:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:

3mm is just shy of 1/8". Did you mean 3 mil?

Puckdropper

I absolutely did! Thanks for correcting that. I have had guns on the brain lately due to some recent activities, and everything was mm, not mil.

Robert



Damn!I have a lot of sanding to do to remove most of that 3mm now.

LOL! Fear not, brother Leon. As a Knight of the Royal Order of the Gremlin Green, thou hast The Mighty Sword of Rotex in you scabbard. It will make short work of bad advice!

Robert

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 15:56:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/10/16 11:54 AM, Swingman wrote:

I remember those picture when BIN was first suggested to me.
I used it (still do) to prime and paint the cut edges of high grade MDF
panels.
I was very impressed with how it soaked in, hardened, and sanded smooth
on the cut "end grain" edges. I think I could've stopped at two coats
but probably went to four on some edges, simply because it dried so
fast. It builds up nicely and obviously takes paint as well as anything.

Just a comment, Mike. Hopefully a helpful one!

BIN is my favorite primer and has been my go to for many years. SW has finally come out with a valid competitor, but that's another post.

BIN is NOT a building finish. In fact, too much BIN is a very bad thing. When applied properly, BIN is a semi-permeable finish that allows the top coats of finish to penetrate it (also known as a bondable substrate) and get to the surface underneath. It is tempting to build with BIN because it sands so easily, but that is not it's purpose.

In fact, Rustoleum/BIN recommends only one coat applied at about 3mm, to finish out at around 1.5mm when dried. I had it on good authority from someone I trusted that too much BIN would foul the top coat's abrasion resistance (substrate too soft)and that it would also diminish the ability of the top coat to bond as paint couldn't penetrate the multiple coats of BIN. I didn't believe it.

However, back in the lab (several houses and years ago after spraying out cabinets) I decided to try that idea out on scraps as it was certainly easy enough to do. Now I believe it; take it from me, it's true in both cases. Mike Marlow and I have discussed the value of reading the application info as well as the MSDS many, many times. I remember I went to the site, and there it was in writing that Rust/BIN recommends only on coat of product.

If find yourself in a project where you need some pore/grain/rough surface filling, I would strongly recommend this product.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/docu.../035777655733/

I have used it extensively. The amount of solids per gallon works out to about 75% more (!!!!) than in BIN and part of its design intent is to be a filler/primer. Like BIN solvent base, this has titanium dioxide as its filler material, so it sands very well and looks like BIN when applied. You can roll this easily, brush it or spray it. If you spray, use a large tip gun and plenty of pressure as this isn't a job for HVLP. Also, the lower viscosity and high amount of solids can be a gun eater, so I shoot mine out of an inexpensive CAS gun from HF, and it shoots very well.

Just a quick warning on the BIN solvent based product.

Robert

I'm curious, what about the edging on plywood if primed and sanded.

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 10:42:22 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:10:26 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
On 2/11/2016 12:32 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 8:45:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:

3mm is just shy of 1/8". Did you mean 3 mil?

Puckdropper

I absolutely did! Thanks for correcting that. I have had guns on the brain lately due to some recent activities, and everything was mm, not mil.

Robert



Damn!I have a lot of sanding to do to remove most of that 3mm now.

LOL! Fear not, brother Leon. As a Knight of the Royal Order of the Gremlin Green, thou hast The Mighty Sword of Rotex in you scabbard. It will make short work of bad advice!

Robert

Now that's funny.

On 2/11/2016 12:42 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:10:26 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
On 2/11/2016 12:32 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 8:45:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:

3mm is just shy of 1/8". Did you mean 3 mil?

Puckdropper

I absolutely did! Thanks for correcting that. I have had guns on the brain lately due to some recent activities, and everything was mm, not mil.

Robert



Damn!I have a lot of sanding to do to remove most of that 3mm now.

LOL! Fear not, brother Leon. As a Knight of the Royal Order of the Gremlin Green, thou hast The Mighty Sword of Rotex in you scabbard. It will make short work of bad advice!

Robert



Thanks for appearing to be only human every once in a while Robert.
Ye'ole master of fini'chen.

On 2/11/2016 6:41 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/11/2016 12:42 PM, wrote:

LOL! Fear not, brother Leon. As a Knight of the Royal Order of the
Gremlin Green, thou hast The Mighty Sword of Rotex in you scabbard.
It will make short work of bad advice!

Robert



Thanks for appearing to be only human every once in a while Robert.
Ye'ole master of fini'chen.

Wobbit, you too esspensive ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)