I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are
assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides
and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers
on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number
one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary
function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for
the slides and the slide spacers to sit on.

The process of spacing the rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

The back fit of the back drawer rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of
each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will
help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the
supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer
divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the
inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place
into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual
plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the
FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides
and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Thoughts or questions?

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:47:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are
assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides
and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers
on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number
one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary
function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for
the slides and the slide spacers to sit on.

The process of spacing the rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I
spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your
comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work.

I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when
clamping to protect the final product.

The back fit of the back drawer rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the
use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using
under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an
interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used.

Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a
very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without
the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like
in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the
use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers.


And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of
each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the
rails?

And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will
help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the
supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw
to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all
together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the
top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength
of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested
to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4"
good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the
bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either?

Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer
divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the
inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place
into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual
plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the
FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides
and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework.

When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I
correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually
measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining
factor for the cutting of the grooves?

I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were
none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for
nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do,
or are you going to put in support blocks there later on?

Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained
ahead of time. Is there a particular reason?

Thoughts or questions?

Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your
pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well.

What a gold mine on info!

On 1/28/2016 12:45 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:47:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are
assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides
and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers
on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number
one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary
function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for
the slides and the slide spacers to sit on.

The process of spacing the rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I
spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your
comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work.

I'm glad you find them helpful.


I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when
clamping to protect the final product.

Well yes, it is important to protect the wood surface from hard surfaced
clamps. However if you are referencing the above picture link the piece
of wood you see is an exact length spacer for spacing the drawer divider
rails. There is one on each side and I started at the bottom. AAMOF
the spacer also fits perfectly between the top drawer divider rail and
the FF top rail, exactly 7.25"
I typically use either Bessey Revo K-Body clamps or Cabinetmaster
clamps. Both brands do not mar the wood so no caul/cushion is needed.
I also have a few Jet K-body style clamps that I still need to adapt,
they unfortunately will leave an impression with out a cushion.


The back fit of the back drawer rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the
use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using
under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an
interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used.

I did not glue the divider rail to the FF stiles, just the one screw on
each end. I am using GSlide full extension soft close slides. They are
side mount and require 1" total allowance, the drawer must be 1"
narrower than the opening.


Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a
very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without
the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like
in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the
use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers.

Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails
normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide
a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount
the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that
assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That
approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails
are mounted.

Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again,
just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with
screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no
longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails
now just fill a gap.

Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims
under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at
the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers.

I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the
spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But
then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to
the spacers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/



And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of
each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the
rails?

Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in
place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few
screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer
spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at
the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that
respect.

And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will
help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the
supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw
to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all
together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the
top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength
of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested
to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4"
good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the
bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either?

Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be
carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and
back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the
cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working
with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what
the customer wanted... so I improvised.

I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a
piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly
what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick
melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the
carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like
veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large
hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to
distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone
when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to
change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and
therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support.



Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer
divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the
inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place
into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual
plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the
FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides
and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework.

When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I
correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually
measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining
factor for the cutting of the grooves?

That is correct. The plan however did call for that measurement to be
3/4" between the FF opening and the groove in the stile to receive the
side panels. This is where you deviate from the from the plan drawing
to compensate for unpredictable plywood thickness. I placed the sample
piece of plywood between the dado set and the fence to set the fence
distance.




I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were
none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for
nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do,
or are you going to put in support blocks there later on?

In that picture the cabinet was a dry fit. The sides bottom rail
grooves were not complete to meet the grooves on the FF bottom rails.
The bottom panels eventually had a continuous groove/dado for the bottom
panel to fit in to.

The front and back FF's were complete and therefore the groove/dado was
complete.

All groves are cut before I assemble the side panels and or FF's. This
results in the stiles of each not having a short horizontal dado at the
bottom of the stiles to match the grooves in the bottom rails.

Is that what you were wondering?

Anyway I was presented with the knowledge to develop a simple jig that
allows me to complete the groove/dado accurately and quickly using a
short top bearing flush trim bit in my trim router.



Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained
ahead of time. Is there a particular reason?

Thank you..

Staining. I don't love it but I tolerate it if I can make it simple.
Inside corners are always a bear. Typically you have to glob a bunch of
stain into the corners to cover the wood and typically you do not get it
all out and the corners end up being darker. By prestaining/varnishing
certain parts this situation is avoided. and that actually speeds the
staining process.

I try to prestain when ever there are going to be inside corners with
the exception of face frames where the rails and stiles meet. Those
inside corners are typically not as difficult to get to and are normally
hidden by a drawer or door. Staining is much easier when you are only
working with a single flat surface.

Notice in this picture that I masked off the rails and stiles, where
they meet, for the side panels. I also prestained the panels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/




Thoughts or questions?

Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your
pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well.

Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely!

What a gold mine on info!

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:38:46 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/28/2016 12:45 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:47:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are
assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides
and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers
on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number
one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary
function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for
the slides and the slide spacers to sit on.

The process of spacing the rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I
spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your
comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work.

I'm glad you find them helpful.


I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when
clamping to protect the final product.

Well yes, it is important to protect the wood surface from hard surfaced
clamps. However if you are referencing the above picture link the piece
of wood you see is an exact length spacer for spacing the drawer divider
rails. There is one on each side and I started at the bottom. AAMOF
the spacer also fits perfectly between the top drawer divider rail and
the FF top rail, exactly 7.25"
I typically use either Bessey Revo K-Body clamps or Cabinetmaster
clamps. Both brands do not mar the wood so no caul/cushion is needed.
I also have a few Jet K-body style clamps that I still need to adapt,
they unfortunately will leave an impression with out a cushion.


The back fit of the back drawer rails.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the
use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using
under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an
interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used.

I did not glue the divider rail to the FF stiles, just the one screw on
each end. I am using GSlide full extension soft close slides. They are
side mount and require 1" total allowance, the drawer must be 1"
narrower than the opening.


Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a
very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without
the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like
in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the
use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers.

Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails
normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide
a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount
the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that
assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That
approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails
are mounted.

Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again,
just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with
screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no
longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails
now just fill a gap.

Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims
under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at
the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers.

I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the
spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But
then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to
the spacers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/


Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a
mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.
Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and
done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well.

That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would
slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of
that?"

Thanks, Leon.
I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does
away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool!



And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of
each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the
rails?

Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in
place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few
screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer
spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at
the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that
respect.

And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will
help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the
supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw
to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all
together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the
top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength
of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested
to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4"
good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the
bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either?

Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be
carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and
back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the
cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working
with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what
the customer wanted... so I improvised.

I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a
piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly
what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick
melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the
carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like
veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large
hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to
distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone
when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to
change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and
therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support.


Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I
can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but
I sure can see where the damage can come in.



Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer
divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the
inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place
into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual
plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the
FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides
and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework.

When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I
correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually
measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining
factor for the cutting of the grooves?

That is correct. The plan however did call for that measurement to be
3/4" between the FF opening and the groove in the stile to receive the
side panels. This is where you deviate from the from the plan drawing
to compensate for unpredictable plywood thickness. I placed the sample
piece of plywood between the dado set and the fence to set the fence
distance.




I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were
none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for
nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do,
or are you going to put in support blocks there later on?

In that picture the cabinet was a dry fit. The sides bottom rail
grooves were not complete to meet the grooves on the FF bottom rails.
The bottom panels eventually had a continuous groove/dado for the bottom
panel to fit in to.

^^^^^^^^

The front and back FF's were complete and therefore the groove/dado was
complete.

All groves are cut before I assemble the side panels and or FF's. This
results in the stiles of each not having a short horizontal dado at the
bottom of the stiles to match the grooves in the bottom rails.

Is that what you were wondering?

The paragraph above ^^^ was what I was wondering, and you answered my
question here.

Anyway I was presented with the knowledge to develop a simple jig that
allows me to complete the groove/dado accurately and quickly using a
short top bearing flush trim bit in my trim router.



Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained
ahead of time. Is there a particular reason?

Thank you..

Staining. I don't love it but I tolerate it if I can make it simple.
Inside corners are always a bear. Typically you have to glob a bunch of
stain into the corners to cover the wood and typically you do not get it
all out and the corners end up being darker. By prestaining/varnishing
certain parts this situation is avoided. and that actually speeds the
staining process.

I try to prestain when ever there are going to be inside corners with
the exception of face frames where the rails and stiles meet. Those
inside corners are typically not as difficult to get to and are normally
hidden by a drawer or door. Staining is much easier when you are only
working with a single flat surface.

Notice in this picture that I masked off the rails and stiles, where
they meet, for the side panels. I also prestained the panels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/


Yes, I did notice that as well as saw the tape.



Thoughts or questions?

Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your
pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well.

Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely!

What a gold mine on info!

Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on
this one.

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

Snip




Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a
very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without
the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like
in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the
use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers.

Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails
normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide
a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount
the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that
assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That
approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails
are mounted.

Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again,
just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with
screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no
longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails
now just fill a gap.

Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims
under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at
the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers.

I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the
spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But
then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to
the spacers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/


Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a
mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.
Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and
done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well.

That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would
slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of
that?"

Thanks, Leon.
I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does
away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool!


I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading
about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith
and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely
relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch
cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and
the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark.

Revolutionary???? ;~0




And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of
each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the
rails?

Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in
place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few
screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer
spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at
the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that
respect.

And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will
help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the
supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw
to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all
together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the
top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength
of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested
to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4"
good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the
bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either?

Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be
carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and
back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the
cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working
with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what
the customer wanted... so I improvised.

I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a
piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly
what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick
melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the
carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like
veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large
hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to
distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone
when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to
change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and
therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support.


Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I
can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but
I sure can see where the damage can come in.

And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being
assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the
sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come
together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and
sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the
stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet.
Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone.

When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and
back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the
same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are
even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple
enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as
wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails,
are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles.

I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and
bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly
undersized.


Snip




Thoughts or questions?

Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your
pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well.

Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely!

What a gold mine on info!

Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on
this one.


You are welcome. It is nice that the details are noticed. This method
of assembly, front and back face frames, has worked out well for me. I
started using this method when I build our kitchen pantry cabinets 4
years ago. These night stands are the 38th and 40th pieces that have
that method of assembly. About 16 pieces are in our newish home, the
rest have been sold to my customers. You learn a few short cuts and
tricks when building this many pieces this way. I was able to figure
out the solutions to the difficult processes using Sketchup.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:51:50 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

Snip




Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a
very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without
the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like
in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the
use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers.

Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails
normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide
a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount
the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that
assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That
approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails
are mounted.

Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again,
just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with
screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no
longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails
now just fill a gap.

Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims
under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at
the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers.

I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the
spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But
then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to
the spacers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/


Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a
mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.
Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and
done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well.

That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would
slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of
that?"

Thanks, Leon.
I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does
away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool!


I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading
about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith
and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely
relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch
cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and
the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark.

Revolutionary???? ;~0


Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time
saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide
rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed
their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you
did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for
the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets
and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you
don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When
there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like
a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a
separator is not needed.

In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude.




And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of
each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the
rails?

Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in
place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few
screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer
spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at
the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that
respect.

And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will
help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the
supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw
to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all
together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the
top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength
of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested
to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4"
good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the
bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either?

Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be
carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and
back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the
cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working
with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what
the customer wanted... so I improvised.

I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a
piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly
what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick
melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the
carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like
veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large
hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to
distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone
when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to
change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and
therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support.


Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I
can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but
I sure can see where the damage can come in.

And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being
assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the
sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come
together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and
sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the
stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet.
Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone.

When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and
back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the
same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are
even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple
enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as
wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails,
are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles.

I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and
bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly
undersized.


I have been using a corner clamps like these

http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html

Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing
everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I
had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for
me. Or anything that needed to be square.

I was thinking something like this might be handy,...
http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps
Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end
panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels.

When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when
gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer
picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must
match perfectly I would think.


Snip




Thoughts or questions?

Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your
pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well.

Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely!

What a gold mine on info!

Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on
this one.


You are welcome. It is nice that the details are noticed. This method
of assembly, front and back face frames, has worked out well for me. I
started using this method when I build our kitchen pantry cabinets 4
years ago. These night stands are the 38th and 40th pieces that have
that method of assembly. About 16 pieces are in our newish home, the
rest have been sold to my customers. You learn a few short cuts and
tricks when building this many pieces this way. I was able to figure
out the solutions to the difficult processes using Sketchup.

I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems
way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a
way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap
to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to
draw on with snap to on those lines as well.

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306

(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/31/16 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306


(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.


You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a
couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get
the big blue one next time it's one sale.
http://www.rockler.com/woodworking-j...wer-slide-jigs


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/31/2016 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306


(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.


In a few words, existing cabinets being renovated are a totally
different ball game. You don't always have the luxury to reach in from
the top or back or put the cabinet up on a work bench. Jigs solve
countless problems.

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306

(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.

I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great
option as well.

I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I
started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides
take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime
you pull the drawer out you see that big gap.

Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to
install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make
the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or
would create complications down the road?

Somehow it just looks obscene to me on/in a wooden cabinet, and the
gap enhances that look.