|
Progress on the Nightstands
I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are
assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for the slides and the slide spacers to sit on. The process of spacing the rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ The back fit of the back drawer rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Thoughts or questions? |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:47:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for the slides and the slide spacers to sit on. The process of spacing the rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work. I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when clamping to protect the final product. The back fit of the back drawer rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used. Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers. And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the rails? And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4" good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either? Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework. When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining factor for the cutting of the grooves? I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,... https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do, or are you going to put in support blocks there later on? Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained ahead of time. Is there a particular reason? Thoughts or questions? Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well. What a gold mine on info! |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/28/2016 12:45 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:47:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for the slides and the slide spacers to sit on. The process of spacing the rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work. I'm glad you find them helpful. I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when clamping to protect the final product. Well yes, it is important to protect the wood surface from hard surfaced clamps. However if you are referencing the above picture link the piece of wood you see is an exact length spacer for spacing the drawer divider rails. There is one on each side and I started at the bottom. AAMOF the spacer also fits perfectly between the top drawer divider rail and the FF top rail, exactly 7.25" I typically use either Bessey Revo K-Body clamps or Cabinetmaster clamps. Both brands do not mar the wood so no caul/cushion is needed. I also have a few Jet K-body style clamps that I still need to adapt, they unfortunately will leave an impression with out a cushion. The back fit of the back drawer rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used. I did not glue the divider rail to the FF stiles, just the one screw on each end. I am using GSlide full extension soft close slides. They are side mount and require 1" total allowance, the drawer must be 1" narrower than the opening. Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers. Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails are mounted. Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again, just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails now just fill a gap. Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers. I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to the spacers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/ And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the rails? Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that respect. And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4" good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either? Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what the customer wanted... so I improvised. I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support. Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework. When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining factor for the cutting of the grooves? That is correct. The plan however did call for that measurement to be 3/4" between the FF opening and the groove in the stile to receive the side panels. This is where you deviate from the from the plan drawing to compensate for unpredictable plywood thickness. I placed the sample piece of plywood between the dado set and the fence to set the fence distance. I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,... https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do, or are you going to put in support blocks there later on? In that picture the cabinet was a dry fit. The sides bottom rail grooves were not complete to meet the grooves on the FF bottom rails. The bottom panels eventually had a continuous groove/dado for the bottom panel to fit in to. The front and back FF's were complete and therefore the groove/dado was complete. All groves are cut before I assemble the side panels and or FF's. This results in the stiles of each not having a short horizontal dado at the bottom of the stiles to match the grooves in the bottom rails. Is that what you were wondering? Anyway I was presented with the knowledge to develop a simple jig that allows me to complete the groove/dado accurately and quickly using a short top bearing flush trim bit in my trim router. Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained ahead of time. Is there a particular reason? Thank you.. Staining. I don't love it but I tolerate it if I can make it simple. Inside corners are always a bear. Typically you have to glob a bunch of stain into the corners to cover the wood and typically you do not get it all out and the corners end up being darker. By prestaining/varnishing certain parts this situation is avoided. and that actually speeds the staining process. I try to prestain when ever there are going to be inside corners with the exception of face frames where the rails and stiles meet. Those inside corners are typically not as difficult to get to and are normally hidden by a drawer or door. Staining is much easier when you are only working with a single flat surface. Notice in this picture that I masked off the rails and stiles, where they meet, for the side panels. I also prestained the panels. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/ Thoughts or questions? Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well. Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely! What a gold mine on info! |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:38:46 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 1/28/2016 12:45 AM, OFWW wrote: On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:47:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for the slides and the slide spacers to sit on. The process of spacing the rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work. I'm glad you find them helpful. I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when clamping to protect the final product. Well yes, it is important to protect the wood surface from hard surfaced clamps. However if you are referencing the above picture link the piece of wood you see is an exact length spacer for spacing the drawer divider rails. There is one on each side and I started at the bottom. AAMOF the spacer also fits perfectly between the top drawer divider rail and the FF top rail, exactly 7.25" I typically use either Bessey Revo K-Body clamps or Cabinetmaster clamps. Both brands do not mar the wood so no caul/cushion is needed. I also have a few Jet K-body style clamps that I still need to adapt, they unfortunately will leave an impression with out a cushion. The back fit of the back drawer rails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used. I did not glue the divider rail to the FF stiles, just the one screw on each end. I am using GSlide full extension soft close slides. They are side mount and require 1" total allowance, the drawer must be 1" narrower than the opening. Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers. Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails are mounted. Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again, just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails now just fill a gap. Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers. I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to the spacers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/ Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well. That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of that?" Thanks, Leon. I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the rails? Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that respect. And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4" good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either? Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what the customer wanted... so I improvised. I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support. Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but I sure can see where the damage can come in. Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework. When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining factor for the cutting of the grooves? That is correct. The plan however did call for that measurement to be 3/4" between the FF opening and the groove in the stile to receive the side panels. This is where you deviate from the from the plan drawing to compensate for unpredictable plywood thickness. I placed the sample piece of plywood between the dado set and the fence to set the fence distance. I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,... https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do, or are you going to put in support blocks there later on? In that picture the cabinet was a dry fit. The sides bottom rail grooves were not complete to meet the grooves on the FF bottom rails. The bottom panels eventually had a continuous groove/dado for the bottom panel to fit in to. ^^^^^^^^ The front and back FF's were complete and therefore the groove/dado was complete. All groves are cut before I assemble the side panels and or FF's. This results in the stiles of each not having a short horizontal dado at the bottom of the stiles to match the grooves in the bottom rails. Is that what you were wondering? The paragraph above ^^^ was what I was wondering, and you answered my question here. Anyway I was presented with the knowledge to develop a simple jig that allows me to complete the groove/dado accurately and quickly using a short top bearing flush trim bit in my trim router. Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained ahead of time. Is there a particular reason? Thank you.. Staining. I don't love it but I tolerate it if I can make it simple. Inside corners are always a bear. Typically you have to glob a bunch of stain into the corners to cover the wood and typically you do not get it all out and the corners end up being darker. By prestaining/varnishing certain parts this situation is avoided. and that actually speeds the staining process. I try to prestain when ever there are going to be inside corners with the exception of face frames where the rails and stiles meet. Those inside corners are typically not as difficult to get to and are normally hidden by a drawer or door. Staining is much easier when you are only working with a single flat surface. Notice in this picture that I masked off the rails and stiles, where they meet, for the side panels. I also prestained the panels. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/ Yes, I did notice that as well as saw the tape. :) Thoughts or questions? Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well. Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely! What a gold mine on info! Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on this one. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers. Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails are mounted. Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again, just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails now just fill a gap. Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers. I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to the spacers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/ Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well. That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of that?" Thanks, Leon. I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the rails? Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that respect. And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4" good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either? Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what the customer wanted... so I improvised. I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support. Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but I sure can see where the damage can come in. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. Snip Thoughts or questions? Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well. Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely! What a gold mine on info! Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on this one. You are welcome. It is nice that the details are noticed. This method of assembly, front and back face frames, has worked out well for me. I started using this method when I build our kitchen pantry cabinets 4 years ago. These night stands are the 38th and 40th pieces that have that method of assembly. About 16 pieces are in our newish home, the rest have been sold to my customers. You learn a few short cuts and tricks when building this many pieces this way. I was able to figure out the solutions to the difficult processes using Sketchup. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:51:50 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers. Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails are mounted. Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again, just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails now just fill a gap. Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers. I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to the spacers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/ Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well. That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of that?" Thanks, Leon. I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude. And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the rails? Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that respect. And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4" good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either? Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what the customer wanted... so I improvised. I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support. Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but I sure can see where the damage can come in. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. I have been using a corner clamps like these http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square. I was thinking something like this might be handy,... http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels. When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think. Snip Thoughts or questions? Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well. Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely! What a gold mine on info! Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on this one. You are welcome. It is nice that the details are noticed. This method of assembly, front and back face frames, has worked out well for me. I started using this method when I build our kitchen pantry cabinets 4 years ago. These night stands are the 38th and 40th pieces that have that method of assembly. About 16 pieces are in our newish home, the rest have been sold to my customers. You learn a few short cuts and tricks when building this many pieces this way. I was able to figure out the solutions to the difficult processes using Sketchup. I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. |
Progress on the Nightstands
OFWW wrote:
I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Make them into a group? Explode them then make hem into one new component? |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude. OK. You really did look close and forward. LOL. I guess I have been building so many cabinets this way that it has become second nature to do it this way. AND YES, the drawer divider rails can be easily moved or removed so that the cabinet can have more or less drawers in the future and or simply replaced with door. This method even works for simply no drawers or doors, for book shelves. Although with doors or no doors you do have to pay more attention to the finishing of the insides. I only put one coat of varnish on the inside when there are strictly drawers. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. I have been using a corner clamps like these http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square. I was thinking something like this might be handy,... http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels. When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think. This is what I was talking about concerning the rails outer edges matching up perfectly with the stile ends. The small clamps securely hold a long strait edge, that piece of oak, on the outer edge of the top and bottom walnut rails. That straight edge is also long enough to extend past the ends of the stiles. Then when you add the long clamps top to bottom, It brings the rails even with the ends of the stiles with out pushing them in to far past the ends of the stiles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Snip I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Ok, when you hover over a component line end or mid point a small inference box appears. Left Click, hold and drag that spot while in the "move" mode to the same small inference box on the other component line. The inference point on the other component will appear as you get close to it. They should snap together, release your left click button. If you want to attach at a different spot on the component simply move by dragging in the direction that you want to go and type in the distance and enter. You can use the "tape measure tool" to set up snap to locations/intersections also. Where the measure tool dashed line goes across a line becomes an inference snap to point. Also if you want to snap specific distances go into Menu Window, Model Info, click on Units in the left column, and enable length snapping and or angle snapping. You can also set your precision there. Just keep at it, you will eventually learn the the program is perfect for wood workers. I would try to learn the basics on simple drawings until you understand how this all works in Sketchup. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Also if you would like I could send you a Sketchup drawing of the night stands to play around with. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/30/2016 5:03 AM, dadiOH wrote:
OFWW wrote: I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Make them into a group? Explode them then make hem into one new component? Yes if I misunderstood, the issue with making the components stick together "After" placement together, select both or all that you want to relocate, right click, and select Make Group or Make Component. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote:
I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. The problem you're struggling with is that you're working in three dimensions, so 2D graph paper would do you no good. The concept, and the built-in feature of SU to deal with it, is called "inferencing". Here are some tips on using the new inference engine in Sketchup 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzuFyVtzlpw -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:51:45 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 1/30/2016 5:03 AM, dadiOH wrote: OFWW wrote: I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Make them into a group? Explode them then make hem into one new component? Yes if I misunderstood, the issue with making the components stick together "After" placement together, select both or all that you want to relocate, right click, and select Make Group or Make Component. It was a poor explanation on my part. I would draw two components and then try to "hook them together", Like a cabinet side and bottom shelf. but I could never get them to align up. Edge to edge. Or a cabinet end with a dado and a shelf with a tongue, it was a lost cause getting them together. I found a video that showed some of the commands which I think might resolve it, but I haven't tried it yet. Which also brings up a sore point with me, RANT,... I hate the guys that steal videos made by others, give them no credit and provide no links where the author of the video says things like go to me web site and download free molding designs to use in your drawings. Especially when people in their notes/replies ask about them and the person who grouped all the helpful videos from different sources just ignores the questions. If it were up to me I would take away their computers and give them solitary confinement for five years and make them watch intriguing movies with all the ends snipped off. /Rant off. |
Progress on the Nightstands
OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:51:45 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/30/2016 5:03 AM, dadiOH wrote: OFWW wrote: I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Make them into a group? Explode them then make hem into one new component? Yes if I misunderstood, the issue with making the components stick together "After" placement together, select both or all that you want to relocate, right click, and select Make Group or Make Component. It was a poor explanation on my part. I would draw two components and then try to "hook them together", Like a cabinet side and bottom shelf. but I could never get them to align up. Edge to edge. Or a cabinet end with a dado and a shelf with a tongue, it was a lost cause getting them together. I found a video that showed some of the commands which I think might resolve it, but I haven't tried it yet. Which also brings up a sore point with me, RANT,... I hate the guys that steal videos made by others, give them no credit and provide no links where the author of the video says things like go to me web site and download free molding designs to use in your drawings. Especially when people in their notes/replies ask about them and the person who grouped all the helpful videos from different sources just ignores the questions. If it were up to me I would take away their computers and give them solitary confinement for five years and make them watch intriguing movies with all the ends snipped off. /Rant off. It sounds like you might do well with going to the Sketchup web site and check out their videos. They start out very basic and advance from there. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:
I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:04:37 -0600, Leon wrote:
OFWW wrote: On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:51:45 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/30/2016 5:03 AM, dadiOH wrote: OFWW wrote: I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Make them into a group? Explode them then make hem into one new component? Yes if I misunderstood, the issue with making the components stick together "After" placement together, select both or all that you want to relocate, right click, and select Make Group or Make Component. It was a poor explanation on my part. I would draw two components and then try to "hook them together", Like a cabinet side and bottom shelf. but I could never get them to align up. Edge to edge. Or a cabinet end with a dado and a shelf with a tongue, it was a lost cause getting them together. I found a video that showed some of the commands which I think might resolve it, but I haven't tried it yet. Which also brings up a sore point with me, RANT,... I hate the guys that steal videos made by others, give them no credit and provide no links where the author of the video says things like go to me web site and download free molding designs to use in your drawings. Especially when people in their notes/replies ask about them and the person who grouped all the helpful videos from different sources just ignores the questions. If it were up to me I would take away their computers and give them solitary confinement for five years and make them watch intriguing movies with all the ends snipped off. /Rant off. It sounds like you might do well with going to the Sketchup web site and check out their videos. They start out very basic and advance from there. I did pick up some info there but got what I really needed from a guy who showed and talked about the controls I needed to get started. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/16 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get the big blue one next time it's one sale. http://www.rockler.com/woodworking-j...wer-slide-jigs -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:48:05 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude. OK. You really did look close and forward. LOL. I guess I have been building so many cabinets this way that it has become second nature to do it this way. AND YES, the drawer divider rails can be easily moved or removed so that the cabinet can have more or less drawers in the future and or simply replaced with door. This method even works for simply no drawers or doors, for book shelves. Although with doors or no doors you do have to pay more attention to the finishing of the insides. I only put one coat of varnish on the inside when there are strictly drawers. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. I have been using a corner clamps like these http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square. I was thinking something like this might be handy,... http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels. When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think. This is what I was talking about concerning the rails outer edges matching up perfectly with the stile ends. The small clamps securely hold a long strait edge, that piece of oak, on the outer edge of the top and bottom walnut rails. That straight edge is also long enough to extend past the ends of the stiles. Then when you add the long clamps top to bottom, It brings the rails even with the ends of the stiles with out pushing them in to far past the ends of the stiles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Snip I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Ok, when you hover over a component line end or mid point a small inference box appears. Left Click, hold and drag that spot while in the "move" mode to the same small inference box on the other component line. The inference point on the other component will appear as you get close to it. They should snap together, release your left click button. If you want to attach at a different spot on the component simply move by dragging in the direction that you want to go and type in the distance and enter. You can use the "tape measure tool" to set up snap to locations/intersections also. Where the measure tool dashed line goes across a line becomes an inference snap to point. Also if you want to snap specific distances go into Menu Window, Model Info, click on Units in the left column, and enable length snapping and or angle snapping. You can also set your precision there. Just keep at it, you will eventually learn the the program is perfect for wood workers. I would try to learn the basics on simple drawings until you understand how this all works in Sketchup. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Also if you would like I could send you a Sketchup drawing of the night stands to play around with. If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids. Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote:
Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. Since you appear to be interested in retrofitting new drawers into existing cabinetry, just a couple of things to be aware of that can often makes that retrofitting an existing cabinetry job with new drawers and modern ball bearing slides a bit easier: Using the jig referenced in a post above for the practice of per-mounting slides to a "spacer" for installation: Referencing the bottom of a drawer slide to the bottom of the "spacer" is fine when you are doing custom furniture. IOW, when the cabinet sides are more likely to be perfectly flat, parallel and with no irregularities. However, in the real world of retrofitting existing cabinetry with modern drawer slides, cabinet sides are rarely flat and/or parallel to each other. Having a space both above and below the drawer slide to nail/screw the slide/spacer assembly to the cabinet sides will help with a stable installation in a real world installation by making it easier to tweak slide/spacer assembly up or down, front to back and side-to-side (parallel) to each other. (Keep in mind the goal is not necessarily a "level" drawer installation, but one that is perpendicular to the front edge of your cabinet or face frame. IOW, you want your drawer front(s) to close flush with the face frame on all sides; or in the Euro and/or inset installation, flush with the front edge of the cabinetry). Initially, I usually mount both slide/spacer assemblies (made with jig) by shooting two brads/finish nails into each drawer slide spacer, one at the front top, and one at the back bottom of the spacer. (make sure your brads nails don't go completely through the cabinet sides!) I then slide the drawer in and check for fit, remove the drawer carefully and tap the assemblies with a dead blow hammer and/or shim as necessary to get the desired fit ... the idea is that the brads/nails hold the assemblies in place, but allow some movement, until you can do the final fastening. This method can often help in solving one of the most common problems when installing modern drawer slides in existing cabinetry: The fact that the opposing cabinet sides in old installations are rarely parallel. This can result in a binding/less than smooth operation of the slides. If done with the correct finish nail or brad, the act of pushing (sometimes with force) the drawer in initially in a non-parallel situation, will often cause one or both of the spacers to move slightly away from a cabinet side and into a parallel relationship. When you carefully remove the drawer the first time, you can shim any of those obvious spots with all guess work as to spacer dimensions removed. When tweaking and shimming is finished, and the drawer fits to your satisfaction, screw/nail down permanently. All the above notwithstanding, some older cabinet are so poorly built and/or out of square that another solution may take a lot less time. In that case I often take the time to do this: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...4 08138140050 Doing this in the shop, where you can insure perfect drawer slide operation both before and after installation (the entire fixed assembly then shimmed as needed upon installation) is occasionally the only way to insure first class operation of many of the fancier drawer slides available today when installing in existing cabinetry. Again, the above really comes into play when dealing with old cabinet installations, and are usually not necessary when dealing with new, custom made cabinets by an experienced cabinet/furniture make like Leon. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 12:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/31/16 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get the big blue one next time it's one sale. http://www.rockler.com/woodworking-j...wer-slide-jigs That $tyle of jig i$ $imply too $pecific purpo$e for real life u$e, IMO. If you get my drift. ;) I will confess to having tried that style of Rockler's "ultimate drawer slide" jigs a few times. Have always gone back to the old, time tested, "trim carpenter" method of attaching the drawer slide to a spacer (using the jig above), then that assembly to the cabinet, as above. Much more flexible for my way of working, and for unusual situations, but as usual YMMV ... -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/16 1:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/31/2016 12:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/31/16 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get the big blue one next time it's one sale. http://www.rockler.com/woodworking-j...wer-slide-jigs That $tyle of jig i$ $imply too $pecific purpo$e for real life u$e, IMO. If you get my drift. ;) I will confess to having tried that style of Rockler's "ultimate drawer slide" jigs a few times. Have always gone back to the old, time tested, "trim carpenter" method of attaching the drawer slide to a spacer (using the jig above), then that assembly to the cabinet, as above. Much more flexible for my way of working, and for unusual situations, but as usual YMMV ... Drift caught. :-) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. In a few words, existing cabinets being renovated are a totally different ball game. You don't always have the luxury to reach in from the top or back or put the cabinet up on a work bench. Jigs solve countless problems. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 12:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/31/16 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get the big blue one next time it's one sale. http://www.rockler.com/woodworking-j...wer-slide-jigs It is a cool jig but I think it might have short comings. Its front FF reference edge is relatively short and could easily tilt a touch and allow the slide to be mounted a bit lower on one end. Especially with heavier slides and when you are holding with one hand and trying to drill or screw at another angle. That would be my fear as drawer slides have to be damn near perfectly mounted. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 12:46 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:04:37 -0600, Leon wrote: OFWW wrote: On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:51:45 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/30/2016 5:03 AM, dadiOH wrote: OFWW wrote: I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Make them into a group? Explode them then make hem into one new component? Yes if I misunderstood, the issue with making the components stick together "After" placement together, select both or all that you want to relocate, right click, and select Make Group or Make Component. It was a poor explanation on my part. I would draw two components and then try to "hook them together", Like a cabinet side and bottom shelf. but I could never get them to align up. Edge to edge. Or a cabinet end with a dado and a shelf with a tongue, it was a lost cause getting them together. I found a video that showed some of the commands which I think might resolve it, but I haven't tried it yet. Which also brings up a sore point with me, RANT,... I hate the guys that steal videos made by others, give them no credit and provide no links where the author of the video says things like go to me web site and download free molding designs to use in your drawings. Especially when people in their notes/replies ask about them and the person who grouped all the helpful videos from different sources just ignores the questions. If it were up to me I would take away their computers and give them solitary confinement for five years and make them watch intriguing movies with all the ends snipped off. /Rant off. It sounds like you might do well with going to the Sketchup web site and check out their videos. They start out very basic and advance from there. I did pick up some info there but got what I really needed from a guy who showed and talked about the controls I needed to get started. Great! If you have any other questions or problems let us know. ;~) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 12:52 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:48:05 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude. OK. You really did look close and forward. LOL. I guess I have been building so many cabinets this way that it has become second nature to do it this way. AND YES, the drawer divider rails can be easily moved or removed so that the cabinet can have more or less drawers in the future and or simply replaced with door. This method even works for simply no drawers or doors, for book shelves. Although with doors or no doors you do have to pay more attention to the finishing of the insides. I only put one coat of varnish on the inside when there are strictly drawers. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. I have been using a corner clamps like these http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square. I was thinking something like this might be handy,... http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels. When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think. This is what I was talking about concerning the rails outer edges matching up perfectly with the stile ends. The small clamps securely hold a long strait edge, that piece of oak, on the outer edge of the top and bottom walnut rails. That straight edge is also long enough to extend past the ends of the stiles. Then when you add the long clamps top to bottom, It brings the rails even with the ends of the stiles with out pushing them in to far past the ends of the stiles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Snip I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Ok, when you hover over a component line end or mid point a small inference box appears. Left Click, hold and drag that spot while in the "move" mode to the same small inference box on the other component line. The inference point on the other component will appear as you get close to it. They should snap together, release your left click button. If you want to attach at a different spot on the component simply move by dragging in the direction that you want to go and type in the distance and enter. You can use the "tape measure tool" to set up snap to locations/intersections also. Where the measure tool dashed line goes across a line becomes an inference snap to point. Also if you want to snap specific distances go into Menu Window, Model Info, click on Units in the left column, and enable length snapping and or angle snapping. You can also set your precision there. Just keep at it, you will eventually learn the the program is perfect for wood workers. I would try to learn the basics on simple drawings until you understand how this all works in Sketchup. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Also if you would like I could send you a Sketchup drawing of the night stands to play around with. If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids. It seems once you "get it" Sketchup is simple to use. It took me a few times to "get it". ;~) If you give me an e-mail address to send the file to I send it. Keep in mind that I often modify and dimensions might differ in different parts of the drawing. Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level. Replace "dot" with "." |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:12:37 -0600, Swingman wrote:
On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote: Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. Since you appear to be interested in retrofitting new drawers into existing cabinetry, just a couple of things to be aware of that can often makes that retrofitting an existing cabinetry job with new drawers and modern ball bearing slides a bit easier: Actually I was just looking at the way Leon did things and seeing the future potential for the cabinets he built that were already designed to begin with the way he does it. Like someone wanting a change order on a cabinet or two. I can see disasters trying to do that with pre-existing cabinets unless they just happened to qualify. (Like you say below) Using the jig referenced in a post above for the practice of per-mounting slides to a "spacer" for installation: Referencing the bottom of a drawer slide to the bottom of the "spacer" is fine when you are doing custom furniture. IOW, when the cabinet sides are more likely to be perfectly flat, parallel and with no irregularities. However, in the real world of retrofitting existing cabinetry with modern drawer slides, cabinet sides are rarely flat and/or parallel to each other. Having a space both above and below the drawer slide to nail/screw the slide/spacer assembly to the cabinet sides will help with a stable installation in a real world installation by making it easier to tweak slide/spacer assembly up or down, front to back and side-to-side (parallel) to each other. (Keep in mind the goal is not necessarily a "level" drawer installation, but one that is perpendicular to the front edge of your cabinet or face frame. IOW, you want your drawer front(s) to close flush with the face frame on all sides; or in the Euro and/or inset installation, flush with the front edge of the cabinetry). Initially, I usually mount both slide/spacer assemblies (made with jig) by shooting two brads/finish nails into each drawer slide spacer, one at the front top, and one at the back bottom of the spacer. (make sure your brads nails don't go completely through the cabinet sides!) I then slide the drawer in and check for fit, remove the drawer carefully and tap the assemblies with a dead blow hammer and/or shim as necessary to get the desired fit ... the idea is that the brads/nails hold the assemblies in place, but allow some movement, until you can do the final fastening. This method can often help in solving one of the most common problems when installing modern drawer slides in existing cabinetry: The fact that the opposing cabinet sides in old installations are rarely parallel. This can result in a binding/less than smooth operation of the slides. If done with the correct finish nail or brad, the act of pushing (sometimes with force) the drawer in initially in a non-parallel situation, will often cause one or both of the spacers to move slightly away from a cabinet side and into a parallel relationship. When you carefully remove the drawer the first time, you can shim any of those obvious spots with all guess work as to spacer dimensions removed. When tweaking and shimming is finished, and the drawer fits to your satisfaction, screw/nail down permanently. All the above notwithstanding, some older cabinet are so poorly built and/or out of square that another solution may take a lot less time. In that case I often take the time to do this: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...4 08138140050 Believe me when I say none of this is lost on me. And I suspect many others will appreciate what you wrote as well. Looking at your jig reminds me of the saying, "Those that can, do, and those that cannot teach." Obviously you jig is built of experience one that the home project person with a certain skill level sure can make use of. A few months ago I might have used that to improve a couple cabinets so as to be able to reach what is stored in back of the shelves, fact is my wife say some prebuilt drawers for sale at Costco, called me, and while it seemed good until she brought them home and I found they were way too short, rendering them useless. So she took them back. Meanwhile we started up grading the kitchen appliances which required the removal of a couple cabinets as well as a couple wall cabinets. In looking at them I found they were in such sad shape that it basically requires a whole new kitchen cabinet setup. Wall cabinets coming loose from the ceiling, doors have to be forced shut, and in the lower cabinets the shelves warped (particle board) and the floor panels that were particle board in some areas were deteriorated due to a couple leaking dishwashers over the years. Then looking at the dead space in the corners 2x2 each and not accessible I said hey, why not? First I called out a so-called kitchen designer, who asked what I wanted in a kitchen, but had no idea's of their own for a total remod. Ends up they were basically interested in replacing the cabinet doors and painting the FF's. Most of what he had to show was stamped out MDF doors with a style that resembled real wood arched with raised face panels. Even a half blind person could see they were crap, like paint on a street woman. and then He said minimum of 3,000 dollars. For that kind of money I could go out to a contractors warehouse, bought a full set of cabinets, with doors and done a R&R and thrown some white paint on them (wife insists) and saved money. (my own labor) Long story short, I am redesigning the kitchen, doing far more than originally planned and on paper, it is looking mighty good. Even so, we are going to sell, hopefully, in a couple years and get out of Dodge. The help and the info I've received here has helped incredibly and I am sure has prevented my from making more mistakes then I otherwise would have. Doing this in the shop, where you can insure perfect drawer slide operation both before and after installation (the entire fixed assembly then shimmed as needed upon installation) is occasionally the only way to insure first class operation of many of the fancier drawer slides available today when installing in existing cabinetry. Again, the above really comes into play when dealing with old cabinet installations, and are usually not necessary when dealing with new, custom made cabinets by an experienced cabinet/furniture make like Leon. I totally agree, even with my limited knowledge in this area. I noticed in your "resume'" that you were fortunate enough to work with wood workers in England or Europe, with a family from a long line of carpenters. I know from having read and studied a bit about wood working in England the respect a Master Craftsmen earns, plus I read about furniture making and so on in my spare time when I was in High School in the middle of the last century, grin. I am only saying this so as to ask you this, if it is possible could you recount some of your experiences while you lived and worked there. I am sure there are some good stories in your memories and it is a sure thing that I'll never be able to do as you did, but I would find them interesting on many levels, and I'd bet that others would as well. I know work may prevent it, or other things, but I just had to ask. Thanks, no matter how it turns out. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 4:01 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/31/2016 12:44 PM, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. In a few words, existing cabinets being renovated are a totally different ball game. You don't always have the luxury to reach in from the top or back or put the cabinet up on a work bench. Jigs solve countless problems. I should have been more clear ... The jig in the link above is only used to attach the drawer slides to spacers in a repeatable, accurate, production like manner. Not intended as an installation jig, like the Rockler that Mike mentioned. Sorry if that was confusing. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote:
On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great option as well. I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime you pull the drawer out you see that big gap. Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? Somehow it just looks obscene to me on/in a wooden cabinet, and the gap enhances that look. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:10:43 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 1/31/2016 12:52 PM, OFWW wrote: On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:48:05 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude. OK. You really did look close and forward. LOL. I guess I have been building so many cabinets this way that it has become second nature to do it this way. AND YES, the drawer divider rails can be easily moved or removed so that the cabinet can have more or less drawers in the future and or simply replaced with door. This method even works for simply no drawers or doors, for book shelves. Although with doors or no doors you do have to pay more attention to the finishing of the insides. I only put one coat of varnish on the inside when there are strictly drawers. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. I have been using a corner clamps like these http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square. I was thinking something like this might be handy,... http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels. When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think. This is what I was talking about concerning the rails outer edges matching up perfectly with the stile ends. The small clamps securely hold a long strait edge, that piece of oak, on the outer edge of the top and bottom walnut rails. That straight edge is also long enough to extend past the ends of the stiles. Then when you add the long clamps top to bottom, It brings the rails even with the ends of the stiles with out pushing them in to far past the ends of the stiles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Snip I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Ok, when you hover over a component line end or mid point a small inference box appears. Left Click, hold and drag that spot while in the "move" mode to the same small inference box on the other component line. The inference point on the other component will appear as you get close to it. They should snap together, release your left click button. If you want to attach at a different spot on the component simply move by dragging in the direction that you want to go and type in the distance and enter. You can use the "tape measure tool" to set up snap to locations/intersections also. Where the measure tool dashed line goes across a line becomes an inference snap to point. Also if you want to snap specific distances go into Menu Window, Model Info, click on Units in the left column, and enable length snapping and or angle snapping. You can also set your precision there. Just keep at it, you will eventually learn the the program is perfect for wood workers. I would try to learn the basics on simple drawings until you understand how this all works in Sketchup. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Also if you would like I could send you a Sketchup drawing of the night stands to play around with. If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids. It seems once you "get it" Sketchup is simple to use. It took me a few times to "get it". ;~) If you give me an e-mail address to send the file to I send it. Keep in mind that I often modify and dimensions might differ in different parts of the drawing. That's quite alright, just being able to see how someone in your position does things is what is important to me, since you would more than likely emphasize it. Sort of like we would on HVAC and Control drawings. Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level. Replace "dot" with "." Will be sending you my addy tonight. :) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great option as well. I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime you pull the drawer out you see that big gap. Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2" wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2" thick material. I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~) Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and "undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to the height of the drawer opening. Somehow it just looks obscene to me on/in a wooden cabinet, and the gap enhances that look. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 8:34 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:10:43 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/31/2016 12:52 PM, OFWW wrote: On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:48:05 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/29/2016 6:47 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool! I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark. Revolutionary???? ;~0 Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed. In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude. OK. You really did look close and forward. LOL. I guess I have been building so many cabinets this way that it has become second nature to do it this way. AND YES, the drawer divider rails can be easily moved or removed so that the cabinet can have more or less drawers in the future and or simply replaced with door. This method even works for simply no drawers or doors, for book shelves. Although with doors or no doors you do have to pay more attention to the finishing of the insides. I only put one coat of varnish on the inside when there are strictly drawers. And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone. When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles. I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized. I have been using a corner clamps like these http://www.harborfreight.com/corner-...ase-38661.html Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square. I was thinking something like this might be handy,... http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bandy-clamps Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels. When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think. This is what I was talking about concerning the rails outer edges matching up perfectly with the stile ends. The small clamps securely hold a long strait edge, that piece of oak, on the outer edge of the top and bottom walnut rails. That straight edge is also long enough to extend past the ends of the stiles. Then when you add the long clamps top to bottom, It brings the rails even with the ends of the stiles with out pushing them in to far past the ends of the stiles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/ Snip I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well. Ok, when you hover over a component line end or mid point a small inference box appears. Left Click, hold and drag that spot while in the "move" mode to the same small inference box on the other component line. The inference point on the other component will appear as you get close to it. They should snap together, release your left click button. If you want to attach at a different spot on the component simply move by dragging in the direction that you want to go and type in the distance and enter. You can use the "tape measure tool" to set up snap to locations/intersections also. Where the measure tool dashed line goes across a line becomes an inference snap to point. Also if you want to snap specific distances go into Menu Window, Model Info, click on Units in the left column, and enable length snapping and or angle snapping. You can also set your precision there. Just keep at it, you will eventually learn the the program is perfect for wood workers. I would try to learn the basics on simple drawings until you understand how this all works in Sketchup. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Also if you would like I could send you a Sketchup drawing of the night stands to play around with. If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids. It seems once you "get it" Sketchup is simple to use. It took me a few times to "get it". ;~) If you give me an e-mail address to send the file to I send it. Keep in mind that I often modify and dimensions might differ in different parts of the drawing. That's quite alright, just being able to see how someone in your position does things is what is important to me, since you would more than likely emphasize it. Sort of like we would on HVAC and Control drawings. Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level. Replace "dot" with "." Will be sending you my addy tonight. :) You got mail! Something else I will tell you about my drawing. You will notice components are a few different colors. Those colors/materials are named to suggest what type material I am using. The brown is Oak Plywood. the Green is solid Oak wood, and the blue is Baltic birch plywood. I don't have a problem knowing what it what however it assures me that I have properly assigned each component a particular type material. I use an import program that copies all highlighted components into my CutList Plus program and it imports the material assigned to each component also. Color coding materials helps to insure that the optimization cutting program, CutList Plus does not think that solid wood components should be cut from a sheet of plywood, visa versa, or a what ever. Just in case you were wondering. ;) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime you pull the drawer out you see that big gap. Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? Somehow it just looks obscene to me on/in a wooden cabinet, and the gap enhances that look. Many "undermount" drawer slides, designed to mount under the drawer, allow you to build a wider drawer, but the bit you gain in drawer width you may lose in drawer height, but not all that radical. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...g?noredirect=1 That said, I most always use those in fine cabinetry and high dollar kitchens. Basically, there are tradeoffs the consumer pays for modern technology/conveniences ... like easy opening and closing, long lasting, smooth operating, low maintenance, and modern features like self closing, and full extension slides. There are many more traditional ways to build and mount drawers, but in environments like kitchens and bathrooms the drawbacks of those traditional methods (mostly that rely on inherent wood on wood contact points that do not handle gracefully the load of a modern kitchen drawer, especially over long periods of time), all are a hard sell these days. When you get right down to it, the aesthetic beauty of the old fashioned, hand crafted drawer in a fine piece of furniture will generally not hold up to the use required in the modern kitchen. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:23:20 -0600, Swingman wrote:
Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? Depends. If your project has face frames, then you won't see most of the drawer slide. No need for dados there. |
Progress on the Nightstands
|
Progress on the Nightstands
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:35:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote: On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great option as well. I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime you pull the drawer out you see that big gap. Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2" wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2" thick material. I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~) Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and "undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to the height of the drawer opening. Yeah, you guys are probably right, no sense swimming against the tide, all things considered. But I will probably try at least one for the garage to see. I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the bottom slides, but the costs drive up the job higher than the wood for the carcases. If it was my final home I would go for it. But the house I am in it just isn't worth it for this area, unless I happened upon a real discriminating buyer. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:23:20 -0600, Swingman wrote:
On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote: I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime you pull the drawer out you see that big gap. Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? Somehow it just looks obscene to me on/in a wooden cabinet, and the gap enhances that look. Many "undermount" drawer slides, designed to mount under the drawer, allow you to build a wider drawer, but the bit you gain in drawer width you may lose in drawer height, but not all that radical. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...g?noredirect=1 Do you make dovetails on all four corners of your drawers? Normally speaking? That said, I most always use those in fine cabinetry and high dollar kitchens. Given even the straight hardware costs I can see why. When I counted up the drawers I'll be installing, it gets pretty pricey. Basically, there are tradeoffs the consumer pays for modern technology/conveniences ... like easy opening and closing, long lasting, smooth operating, low maintenance, and modern features like self closing, and full extension slides. There are many more traditional ways to build and mount drawers, but in environments like kitchens and bathrooms the drawbacks of those traditional methods (mostly that rely on inherent wood on wood contact points that do not handle gracefully the load of a modern kitchen drawer, especially over long periods of time), all are a hard sell these days. I can see why, every one wants "nice." When you get right down to it, the aesthetic beauty of the old fashioned, hand crafted drawer in a fine piece of furniture will generally not hold up to the use required in the modern kitchen. My Kitchen and bathroom drawers lasted 30+ years before the drawer faces would occasionally come free, or the drawer boxes started coming apart. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 2/1/2016 3:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:35:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote: On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote: On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote: I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend. Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry. https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306 (scroll right for all four photos) When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time. I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great option as well. I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime you pull the drawer out you see that big gap. Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or would create complications down the road? The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2" wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2" thick material. I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~) Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and "undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to the height of the drawer opening. Yeah, you guys are probably right, no sense swimming against the tide, all things considered. But I will probably try at least one for the garage to see. I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the bottom slides, but the costs drive up the job higher than the wood for the carcases. If it was my final home I would go for it. But the house I am in it just isn't worth it for this area, unless I happened upon a real discriminating buyer. Here is the way I look at it, if you are introducing mechanical metal slides you are crossing that line away from really high end craftsmanship. IOT if I don't to see compromises I build a web frame in the cabinet, with center guide and a matching center guide for the drawer, out of wood. No metal.... But in kitchen cabinets that will see a lot of wear, and like Swingman said, wood on wood movement does not hold up for the long haul. Anyway if you are looking for a pretty good side mount full extension 100# Soft close slide I buy from this place. Really good pricing for a KV distributed product. http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Sli...ose-p/1012.htm |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 2/1/2016 3:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the bottom slides, The jig, as shown, works equally well with side mount drawer slides. AAMOF, that is what it was originally designed for. The practice of mounting "side mount" drawer slides on a spacer, then mounting that assembly to the sides of face frame cabinets, dates back to the introduction of the modern drawer slide. Go on any residential construction site in the country during installation of the kitchen cabinets and you will likely see something identical in use by the trim carpenters during drawer installation. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 2/1/2016 3:39 PM, OFWW wrote:
Do you make dovetails on all four corners of your drawers? Normally speaking? For fine furniture and cabinetry, normally yes. For Tier 1 kitchen cabinets with 3/4" sides and 1/2" bottoms, depends upon the budget. Tier 2 kitchen cabinets, not usually, just on the front. Consider the two most detrimental forces that act upon a kitchen cabinet drawer that cause it to fail: 1.The sheer force acting on the drawer sides when pulling the drawer out by the drawer front, or false front. 2. The downward force of the load on the drawer bottom from the contents. Front dovetails totally mitigate #1; And a dadoed drawer back, cut high enough to allow a thinner drawer bottom to slide into grooves, thereby allowing for drawer bottom replacement, instead of a new drawer if it becomes necessary from overloading, mitigates, to a large extent #2. My Kitchen and bathroom drawers lasted 30+ years before the drawer faces would occasionally come free, or the drawer boxes started coming apart. Proves the point: A 30 year old kitchen is not a "modern" kitchen, and it appears some of the existing drawers did not even withstand that. ;) Note: I can make a good living just bringing 7 year old kitchen cabinet components in multi-million dollar homes up to modern standards (that's how shoddy residential construction workmanship is these days) ... and certainly anything older for damned sure. LOL -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 2/1/2016 6:09 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/1/2016 3:21 PM, OFWW wrote: I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the bottom slides, The jig, as shown, works equally well with side mount drawer slides. AAMOF, that is what it was originally designed for. The practice of mounting "side mount" drawer slides on a spacer, then mounting that assembly to the sides of face frame cabinets, dates back to the introduction of the modern drawer slide. Go on any residential construction site in the country during installation of the kitchen cabinets and you will likely see something identical in use by the trim carpenters during drawer installation. I think you better reword that. LOL Most residential construction sites use prefab and the drawers and slides are already in the cabinets when they are delivered. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:01:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
The drawer would have to have a groove big enough for the whole slide to fit into, including the cabinet portion of the slide Yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking. |
Progress on the Nightstands
On 2/1/2016 10:27 PM, Leon wrote:
I think you better reword that. LOL Most residential construction sites use prefab and the drawers and slides are already in the cabinets when they are delivered. Not all new homes being built today are cookie cutter "tract" homes; and certainly not all those use pre-fab cabinets. Although the trend to further cut costs by using pre-fabs (versus built-ins or custom cabinets) has certainly grown since the bust of 2008 in the "spec" home market, pre-fabs, being particularly suited to "cookie cutter" constructions methods, are still rarely seen in "spec" homes; and even more rarely in "custom" homes. Even then, it is evident that the cabinetry in _most_ homes in existence in most parts of the country today are not prefabs, but most likely to be onsite built-ins, which almost always require component installation to be done onsite. Just another reason why the modern drawer slide/cabinet hinge hardware business has grown by leaps and bounds during the last twenty+ years. And, which makes knowing how to efficiently, and cost effectively, use and install that type of hardware a valuable skill today. That skill being basically being the subject of the thread. ;) -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
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