Swingman wrote:
On 2/1/2016 10:27 PM, Leon wrote:

I think you better reword that. LOL

Most residential construction sites use prefab and the drawers and
slides are already in the cabinets when they are delivered.

Not all new homes being built today are cookie cutter "tract" homes; and
certainly not all those use pre-fab cabinets.

Granted but I believe the trend has been headed that way for quite some
time in other than totally custom built homes or in our case, when upper
end remodeling. Perry homes has been better cookie cutter and still
offered job site built cabinets up until about 10 years ago.

Out where I live I would venture to say the vast majority of the homes
built in the last 20 years had prefab including the homes approaching $1M.



Although the trend to further cut costs by using pre-fabs (versus
built-ins or custom cabinets) has certainly grown since the bust of 2008
in the "spec" home market, pre-fabs, being particularly suited to
"cookie cutter" constructions methods, are still rarely seen in "spec"
homes; and even more rarely in "custom" homes.

Understood and agreed but I highly suspect that the homers you are
referencing are a much smaller percentage of what is being built since the
70's.



Even then, it is evident that the cabinetry in _most_ homes in existence
in most parts of the country today are not prefabs, but most likely to
be onsite built-ins, which almost always require component installation
to be done onsite.

Correct and I agree here but you mentioned to go on any residential
construction site in the country during installation of the kitchen
cabinets and you will likely see something identical in use by the trim
carpenters during drawer installation. residential home site construction
and I took that to mean new home construction.

I think we are just looking at what you said differently. Obviously we
never installed drawers in the kitchens that we did together prior to
install.



Just another reason why the modern drawer slide/cabinet hinge hardware
business has grown by leaps and bounds during the last twenty+ years.

Well the prefab cabs are certainly coming with better hardware, that is for
sure. I was a bit surprised that Colon & Reeda's new home with prefab
cabinets came with full extension side mount slides but equally surprised
that they were not soft close.



And, which makes knowing how to efficiently, and cost effectively, use
and install that type of hardware a valuable skill today.

Absolutely.




That skill being basically being the subject of the thread.

On 2/1/2016 11:48 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:01:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
The drawer would have to have a groove big enough for the whole slide to
fit into, including the cabinet portion of the slide

Yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking.



I had to think about it too. ;~) Even with drawings. LOL

On 2/2/2016 8:01 AM, Leon wrote:

I think we are just looking at what you said differently.

Pffft ... I think you're just arguing because my deck is bigger than
yours. LOL

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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/2/2016 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/2/2016 8:01 AM, Leon wrote:

I think we are just looking at what you said differently.

Pffft ... I think you're just arguing because my deck is bigger than
yours. LOL


Guilty!

On 1/31/2016 4:48 PM, OFWW wrote:

Long story short, I am redesigning the kitchen, doing far more than
originally planned and on paper, it is looking mighty good. Even so,
we are going to sell, hopefully, in a couple years and get out of
Dodge.

In Sketchup, go to File|3D Warehouse|Get Model, and you can find all
kinds of cabinet models to help you populate your particular space.

Try to find the ones that are truly "dynamic", IOW, which can be
resized/scaled to fill a certain area, often in both height and width.

Or go here with a web browser and search around:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/sea...Clas s=entity

They should all download into a folder, or if in SketchUp, directly into
your model that is open.

Back six or seven years ago, before SU use was as widespread as it is
today, I had to program my own DC (Dynamic Component) face frames,
doors, wall and base cabinets, in both Traditional and Euro style, which
I still use today for designing kitchens and baths.

Most of what you will find on the 3D Warehouse are much more
sophisticated than my old ones, with many more options, but you may not
get the level of detail that will help with fabrication of the
components that make up the cabinets.

Nonetheless, give it a try ... it will quickly leverage your actual
benefit of using SketchUp as you learn.

-
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 08:26:45 -0600, Swingman wrote:
I think we are just looking at what you said differently.

Pffft ... I think you're just arguing because my deck is bigger than
yours. LOL

That means he can come over to your place more often and mooch some
barbeque.

On 2/2/2016 9:44 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 08:26:45 -0600, Swingman wrote:
I think we are just looking at what you said differently.

Pffft ... I think you're just arguing because my deck is bigger than
yours. LOL

That means he can come over to your place more often and mooch some
barbeque.

He keeps this up, it's crackers and water ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 09:28:02 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/31/2016 4:48 PM, OFWW wrote:

Long story short, I am redesigning the kitchen, doing far more than
originally planned and on paper, it is looking mighty good. Even so,
we are going to sell, hopefully, in a couple years and get out of
Dodge.

In Sketchup, go to File|3D Warehouse|Get Model, and you can find all
kinds of cabinet models to help you populate your particular space.

Try to find the ones that are truly "dynamic", IOW, which can be
resized/scaled to fill a certain area, often in both height and width.

Or go here with a web browser and search around:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/sea...Clas s=entity

They should all download into a folder, or if in SketchUp, directly into
your model that is open.

Back six or seven years ago, before SU use was as widespread as it is
today, I had to program my own DC (Dynamic Component) face frames,
doors, wall and base cabinets, in both Traditional and Euro style, which
I still use today for designing kitchens and baths.

Most of what you will find on the 3D Warehouse are much more
sophisticated than my old ones, with many more options, but you may not
get the level of detail that will help with fabrication of the
components that make up the cabinets.

Nonetheless, give it a try ... it will quickly leverage your actual
benefit of using SketchUp as you learn.

Thanks for the link, I checked it out, and found that the dynamic
feature is only for the pro version. I had seen a little about this
feature and it was on my bucket list of thinks to check out. A very
nice feature, makes a lot of things reusable.

I finally got my pieces to link up and a beautiful sight to see when
an end panel with Dado's and Grooves link up to its associated pieces.

I have already found some issues regarding my new cabinet designs in
my head, rather correct them in Sketchup than with real wood products.

I am glad that you and Leon stressed using the program, Thank you.

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:46:49 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
snip
If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I
finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves
fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto
Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids.

It seems once you "get it" Sketchup is simple to use. It took me a few
times to "get it". ;~)

If you give me an e-mail address to send the file to I send it.
Keep in mind that I often modify and dimensions might differ in
different parts of the drawing.


That's quite alright, just being able to see how someone in your
position does things is what is important to me, since you would more
than likely emphasize it.

Sort of like we would on HVAC and Control drawings.




Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email
address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level.

Replace "dot" with "."

Will be sending you my addy tonight.

You got mail!

Something else I will tell you about my drawing. You will notice
components are a few different colors. Those colors/materials are named
to suggest what type material I am using.
The brown is Oak Plywood. the Green is solid Oak wood, and the blue is
Baltic birch plywood.

I don't have a problem knowing what it what however it assures me that I
have properly assigned each component a particular type material.

I use an import program that copies all highlighted components into my
CutList Plus program and it imports the material assigned to each
component also. Color coding materials helps to insure that the
optimization cutting program, CutList Plus does not think that solid
wood components should be cut from a sheet of plywood, visa versa, or a
what ever.

Just in case you were wondering.

Leon, I really appreciated seeing that, and your color legend idea for
wood products. I had been thinking about that very same thing and you,
lol, gave me the solution before I even mentioned it.

I finally got things linking up, nice to see joints "hook up" I have
already found some problems with my cabinet designs, and it is so much
easier to correct them in the drawing than making the same mistake
with real wood.

To think, that this all started out with the idea of installing slide
out drawers for the pots n pans, and large under the counter
appliances, then advancing to full replacement due to upgraded
appliances and the knowledge that my cabinets were at the end of their
life cycle.

Thanks for your insistence on using Sketchup, it has turned into a
real plus.

I had downloaded a cutlist program for version 16 but have not gotten
to the point where I need to set it up, yet. I hope to later this
week.

Thanks again, and thank you for the link on drawer slides, those
prices are 2/3rds of the prices I see around here.

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 18:31:56 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/1/2016 3:39 PM, OFWW wrote:

Do you make dovetails on all four corners of your drawers? Normally
speaking?

For fine furniture and cabinetry, normally yes.

For Tier 1 kitchen cabinets with 3/4" sides and 1/2" bottoms, depends
upon the budget.

Tier 2 kitchen cabinets, not usually, just on the front.

Consider the two most detrimental forces that act upon a kitchen cabinet
drawer that cause it to fail:

1.The sheer force acting on the drawer sides when pulling the drawer out
by the drawer front, or false front.

2. The downward force of the load on the drawer bottom from the contents.

Front dovetails totally mitigate #1;

And a dadoed drawer back, cut high enough to allow a thinner drawer
bottom to slide into grooves, thereby allowing for drawer bottom
replacement, instead of a new drawer if it becomes necessary from
overloading, mitigates, to a large extent #2.

My Kitchen and bathroom drawers lasted 30+ years before the drawer
faces would occasionally come free, or the drawer boxes started coming
apart.

Proves the point: A 30 year old kitchen is not a "modern" kitchen, and
it appears some of the existing drawers did not even withstand that.

Note: I can make a good living just bringing 7 year old kitchen cabinet
components in multi-million dollar homes up to modern standards (that's
how shoddy residential construction workmanship is these days) ... and
certainly anything older for damned sure. LOL

Super great advice, thank you.

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:28:37 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/1/2016 3:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:35:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306

(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.

I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great
option as well.

I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I
started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides
take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime
you pull the drawer out you see that big gap.

Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to
install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make
the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or
would create complications down the road?

The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2"
wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2"
thick material.

I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at
the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~)

Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and
"undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT
IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to
the height of the drawer opening.


Yeah, you guys are probably right, no sense swimming against the tide,
all things considered. But I will probably try at least one for the
garage to see.

I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the
bottom slides, but the costs drive up the job higher than the wood for
the carcases. If it was my final home I would go for it. But the house
I am in it just isn't worth it for this area, unless I happened upon a
real discriminating buyer.



Here is the way I look at it, if you are introducing mechanical metal
slides you are crossing that line away from really high end
craftsmanship. IOT if I don't to see compromises I build a web frame in
the cabinet, with center guide and a matching center guide for the
drawer, out of wood. No metal.... But in kitchen cabinets that will
see a lot of wear, and like Swingman said, wood on wood movement does
not hold up for the long haul.

Anyway if you are looking for a pretty good side mount full extension
100# Soft close slide I buy from this place. Really good pricing for a
KV distributed product.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Sli...ose-p/1012.htm

The link info was great, less expensive that what I can get here
locally, even less than the box stores.

We decided at the beginning to use metal slides for their full length
extension capability, making it far easier to get at the stuff at the
back of the cabinet without having to unload the cabinet every time
you need something.

I also ran across a mention of a slide with an extra 3/4 " extension
for drawers that are under the counter top so that those drawers are
also fully extendable when you take the countertop overhang into
account.

Thanks again Leon.!

OFWW wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:28:37 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/1/2016 3:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:35:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306

(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.

I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great
option as well.

I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I
started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides
take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime
you pull the drawer out you see that big gap.

Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to
install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make
the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or
would create complications down the road?

The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2"
wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2"
thick material.

I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at
the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~)

Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and
"undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT
IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to
the height of the drawer opening.


Yeah, you guys are probably right, no sense swimming against the tide,
all things considered. But I will probably try at least one for the
garage to see.

I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the
bottom slides, but the costs drive up the job higher than the wood for
the carcases. If it was my final home I would go for it. But the house
I am in it just isn't worth it for this area, unless I happened upon a
real discriminating buyer.



Here is the way I look at it, if you are introducing mechanical metal
slides you are crossing that line away from really high end
craftsmanship. IOT if I don't to see compromises I build a web frame in
the cabinet, with center guide and a matching center guide for the
drawer, out of wood. No metal.... But in kitchen cabinets that will
see a lot of wear, and like Swingman said, wood on wood movement does
not hold up for the long haul.

Anyway if you are looking for a pretty good side mount full extension
100# Soft close slide I buy from this place. Really good pricing for a
KV distributed product.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Sli...ose-p/1012.htm

The link info was great, less expensive that what I can get here
locally, even less than the box stores.

We decided at the beginning to use metal slides for their full length
extension capability, making it far easier to get at the stuff at the
back of the cabinet without having to unload the cabinet every time
you need something.

I also ran across a mention of a slide with an extra 3/4 " extension
for drawers that are under the counter top so that those drawers are
also fully extendable when you take the countertop overhang into
account.

Thanks again Leon.!


You are welcome.
Keep in mind that the over travel slides can be a bit pricey for that extra
3/4" of travel. You cab accomplish the same thing by simply making the
drawer 3/4" or more shorter front to back.

OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:46:49 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
snip
If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I
finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves
fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto
Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids.

It seems once you "get it" Sketchup is simple to use. It took me a few
times to "get it". ;~)

If you give me an e-mail address to send the file to I send it.
Keep in mind that I often modify and dimensions might differ in
different parts of the drawing.


That's quite alright, just being able to see how someone in your
position does things is what is important to me, since you would more
than likely emphasize it.

Sort of like we would on HVAC and Control drawings.




Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email
address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level.

Replace "dot" with "."

Will be sending you my addy tonight.

You got mail!

Something else I will tell you about my drawing. You will notice
components are a few different colors. Those colors/materials are named
to suggest what type material I am using.
The brown is Oak Plywood. the Green is solid Oak wood, and the blue is
Baltic birch plywood.

I don't have a problem knowing what it what however it assures me that I
have properly assigned each component a particular type material.

I use an import program that copies all highlighted components into my
CutList Plus program and it imports the material assigned to each
component also. Color coding materials helps to insure that the
optimization cutting program, CutList Plus does not think that solid
wood components should be cut from a sheet of plywood, visa versa, or a
what ever.

Just in case you were wondering.

Leon, I really appreciated seeing that, and your color legend idea for
wood products. I had been thinking about that very same thing and you,
lol, gave me the solution before I even mentioned it.

And just go a bird rather with that, when I send a drawing to a customer I
use wood grain materials instead of different colors.



I finally got things linking up, nice to see joints "hook up" I have
already found some problems with my cabinet designs, and it is so much
easier to correct them in the drawing than making the same mistake
with real wood.

Exactly.



To think, that this all started out with the idea of installing slide
out drawers for the pots n pans, and large under the counter
appliances, then advancing to full replacement due to upgraded
appliances and the knowledge that my cabinets were at the end of their
life cycle.

Slippery slope. In 1989 my wife and I began discussing replacing cabinet
doors and drawers in our kitchen for a more fresh look to an 8 year old
prefab kitchen.
I still had a real full time job and about 2 years later we ended up with
all new cabinets, a foot print twice as large, an additional pantry, new
appliances, Olympic sized kitchen sink, and new tile floor. 25 years later
that kitchen, which now belongs to our son, still looks better than the
original kitchen.





Thanks for your insistence on using Sketchup, it has turned into a
real plus.

The more you use it the more you will wonder how you did with out it. It
is as important as any tool in my shop.





I had downloaded a cutlist program for version 16 but have not gotten
to the point where I need to set it up, yet. I hope to later this
week.

Thanks again, and thank you for the link on drawer slides, those
prices are 2/3rds of the prices I see around here.


And if you need a link to Blum Euro style hinges,,,,, I buy boxes of 50
at a time.. In particular a FF screw mounted Blum hinge with 1/2" over
lay. IIRC Blum calls it a Compact 35. The site that I buy from has sales
on multiples of 50. I just reordered and paid about $1.15 per hinge.
Considering that their regular price is around $1.75 each that is a
substantial savings.

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

Thanks for the link, I checked it out, and found that the dynamic
feature is only for the pro version.

Only partly true.

You can only "development" them in the Pro version.

You can certainly use Dynamic Components, and take advantage of their
abilities in Make.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

I am glad that you and Leon stressed using the program, Thank you.

Be careful, you'll have a shop full of Festool before you know it.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:10:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

Thanks for the link, I checked it out, and found that the dynamic
feature is only for the pro version.

Only partly true.

You can only "development" them in the Pro version.

You can certainly use Dynamic Components, and take advantage of their
abilities in Make.

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops. I've seen the actions of "follow me" when moldings
around a piece of furniture, HOT!

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:11:38 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

I am glad that you and Leon stressed using the program, Thank you.

Be careful, you'll have a shop full of Festool before you know it.

ROTFLOL, I doubt it, but that domino tool the way Leon used it makes
be want to look and see what it costs.

BAH Humbug, I just had to go look, but hey! They give you free
shipping.

Think I'll do fine without it and with what I have, plus if I get
hungry I can eat biscuits which is better than playing a game of
domino's.

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 07:35:57 -0600, Leon wrote:

OFWW wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:28:37 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/1/2016 3:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:35:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 8:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:44:10 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:28 PM, OFWW wrote:

I was
contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build,
and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited
to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides
and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws.

Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.

Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
cabinetry.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 55711086306

(scroll right for all four photos)

When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.

I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great
option as well.

I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I
started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides
take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime
you pull the drawer out you see that big gap.

Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to
install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make
the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or
would create complications down the road?

The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2"
wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2"
thick material.

I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at
the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~)

Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and
"undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT
IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to
the height of the drawer opening.


Yeah, you guys are probably right, no sense swimming against the tide,
all things considered. But I will probably try at least one for the
garage to see.

I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the
bottom slides, but the costs drive up the job higher than the wood for
the carcases. If it was my final home I would go for it. But the house
I am in it just isn't worth it for this area, unless I happened upon a
real discriminating buyer.



Here is the way I look at it, if you are introducing mechanical metal
slides you are crossing that line away from really high end
craftsmanship. IOT if I don't to see compromises I build a web frame in
the cabinet, with center guide and a matching center guide for the
drawer, out of wood. No metal.... But in kitchen cabinets that will
see a lot of wear, and like Swingman said, wood on wood movement does
not hold up for the long haul.

Anyway if you are looking for a pretty good side mount full extension
100# Soft close slide I buy from this place. Really good pricing for a
KV distributed product.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Sli...ose-p/1012.htm

The link info was great, less expensive that what I can get here
locally, even less than the box stores.

We decided at the beginning to use metal slides for their full length
extension capability, making it far easier to get at the stuff at the
back of the cabinet without having to unload the cabinet every time
you need something.

I also ran across a mention of a slide with an extra 3/4 " extension
for drawers that are under the counter top so that those drawers are
also fully extendable when you take the countertop overhang into
account.

Thanks again Leon.!


You are welcome.
Keep in mind that the over travel slides can be a bit pricey for that extra
3/4" of travel. You cab accomplish the same thing by simply making the
drawer 3/4" or more shorter front to back.

I was thinking about that very same thing. Thanks for the
confirmation.

On 2/5/2016 1:17 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:10:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

Thanks for the link, I checked it out, and found that the dynamic
feature is only for the pro version.

Only partly true.

You can only "development" them in the Pro version.

You can certainly use Dynamic Components, and take advantage of their
abilities in Make.

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops. I've seen the actions of "follow me" when moldings
around a piece of furniture, HOT!



IIRC when the trial period ends the only thing you loose is the ability
to construct dynamic components, most of the solid object modification
tools, Style Builder, and Layout.

Of all of those the dynamic components is probably the biggest hit you
will notice. None of the others are really necessary for typical
woodworking.

I am a shortcut freak. I despise having to click on icons for every
frequently used operation. You can assign just about any command a
shortcut. If you open up the top menus the drop down windows show
commands that you can either click or you can use the short cut key that
is shown and assigned to the command.

If that sort of thing interests you there is a window for setting up the
short cut key strokes.

AND some of the commands do not appear in that window UNLESS........
you have actually selected a line or component in the drawing.

For instance the right click "flip along" command is very helpful for
giving you a mirror image of something that you have copied and placed
in another spot in the drawing. The Flip Along commands no not appear
in the short cut window if you do not have something selected in the
drawing. Clear as mud? LOL

Just something else to think about as you progress with the program.

On 2/5/2016 1:25 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:11:38 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

I am glad that you and Leon stressed using the program, Thank you.

Be careful, you'll have a shop full of Festool before you know it.

ROTFLOL, I doubt it, but that domino tool the way Leon used it makes
be want to look and see what it costs.

BAH Humbug, I just had to go look, but hey! They give you free
shipping.

LOL, Don't you have a spare thousand dollars for that tool???

AND you need to run a shop vac with that tool to insure that the chips
are cleared out of the mortise. The Festool brand vacs are right on up
there also BUT IMHO worth every penny. They are exceptionally quiet.
You seldom hear them running when using another power tool, even sanders.


Think I'll do fine without it and with what I have, plus if I get
hungry I can eat biscuits which is better than playing a game of
domino's.


You really need to be doing volume to justify the expense, I have had my
Domino since early 2008 IIRC and I have averaged about 1500 mortises for
each year that I have had it so it has paid me back in spades owning one.

On 2/5/2016 1:17 AM, OFWW wrote:

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops.

Unless you have some programming chops, and have a direct need for
rolling your own "Dynamic Components", you won't notice anything that
will impact your use of SU Make for woodworking at all.

I'm pretty sure Leon has always used the free version since day 1.

As previously noted, you can download, and use, many Dynamic Components
(cabinets, fences, stairs, etc) on the 3D Warehouse straight to your
model in the free version.

I personally would miss the "Solid Object" tools, available only in SU
Pro, but only because I've experienced them by having the Pro version
for a number of years.

Never missed them before I upgraded to SU Pro because there are many
different ways to skin any particular cat in SU, including thousands of
SU plug-ins.

The "Plug-ins" and extensions (there is an Extension Warehouse under you
WINDOW menu also) are another world of utilitarian tools you need to
check into, most free, but some need to be purchased. There are also
third party sites dedicated solely to SU plug-ins. Google is your friend.

I build homes, and do a lot of kitchen and bath remodeling, therefore
the Pro version that comes with "Layout", was imperative for me to
generate industry standard, and formatted, construction documents for
permitting, bidding and building.

Either version is hard to beat for the price as a design tool, a
presentation tool to clients, as well as to design, build and fabricate
just about anything you can think of.

Wouldn't leave home, or go to the shop, without it ... literally.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 08:33:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/5/2016 1:17 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:10:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

Thanks for the link, I checked it out, and found that the dynamic
feature is only for the pro version.

Only partly true.

You can only "development" them in the Pro version.

You can certainly use Dynamic Components, and take advantage of their
abilities in Make.

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops. I've seen the actions of "follow me" when moldings
around a piece of furniture, HOT!



IIRC when the trial period ends the only thing you loose is the ability
to construct dynamic components, most of the solid object modification
tools, Style Builder, and Layout.

Of all of those the dynamic components is probably the biggest hit you
will notice. None of the others are really necessary for typical
woodworking.

I am a shortcut freak. I despise having to click on icons for every
frequently used operation. You can assign just about any command a
shortcut. If you open up the top menus the drop down windows show
commands that you can either click or you can use the short cut key that
is shown and assigned to the command.

If that sort of thing interests you there is a window for setting up the
short cut key strokes.


I do a little of each.

AND some of the commands do not appear in that window UNLESS........
you have actually selected a line or component in the drawing.


Yes, I have run across that too, even your ability to do certain
things is not there unless you are facing in the right direction,
sometimes I just use the correct plane.

For instance the right click "flip along" command is very helpful for
giving you a mirror image of something that you have copied and placed
in another spot in the drawing. The Flip Along commands no not appear
in the short cut window if you do not have something selected in the
drawing. Clear as mud? LOL


Actually I have been using the flip commands, if I design an end panel
I can copy it with the appropriate flips, or slide the copy of the
bare end panel and flip, then whatever I do to the one panel will
appear on the other side, inside where it should be. But not useful to
duplicate on all cabinets with a different purpose at the other end.

Just something else to think about as you progress with the program.

This weekend I will probably be spending my time in the shop as it is
warming up, supposedly, and practice on dovetails, and some other
joints and also check out my new Dado set.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 10:14:56 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2016 1:17 AM, OFWW wrote:

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops.

Unless you have some programming chops, and have a direct need for
rolling your own "Dynamic Components", you won't notice anything that
will impact your use of SU Make for woodworking at all.

I'm pretty sure Leon has always used the free version since day 1.

As previously noted, you can download, and use, many Dynamic Components
(cabinets, fences, stairs, etc) on the 3D Warehouse straight to your
model in the free version.

I personally would miss the "Solid Object" tools, available only in SU
Pro, but only because I've experienced them by having the Pro version
for a number of years.

Never missed them before I upgraded to SU Pro because there are many
different ways to skin any particular cat in SU, including thousands of
SU plug-ins.

The "Plug-ins" and extensions (there is an Extension Warehouse under you
WINDOW menu also) are another world of utilitarian tools you need to
check into, most free, but some need to be purchased. There are also
third party sites dedicated solely to SU plug-ins. Google is your friend.

I build homes, and do a lot of kitchen and bath remodeling, therefore
the Pro version that comes with "Layout", was imperative for me to
generate industry standard, and formatted, construction documents for
permitting, bidding and building.

Either version is hard to beat for the price as a design tool, a
presentation tool to clients, as well as to design, build and fabricate
just about anything you can think of.

Wouldn't leave home, or go to the shop, without it ... literally.

Yeah, I have a copy on my tablet/notebook with duplicate files from my
desktop in case I have a thought.

On Layout, is that the ability to layout the floor plan and walls, and
then put in the various cabinets and appliances to see a picture of
the final results of the cabinet designs?

Or so that I can redesign my garage layout for tool locations, etc?

I would miss those, and as my wife lacks visual imagination in certain
area, It would be hard to show her something without a picture of it.

I can only envision doing this as a business if the economy went
dramatically south and I needed a source of income. I have learned to
do things sparingly for friends. True friends, IYKWIM.

I've seen some of what it can do based on geographic location, I am
totally impressed. You can use that for tree placement around a bldg
with deciduous trees for energy management amongst other things.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 08:40:06 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/5/2016 1:25 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:11:38 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/4/2016 2:50 AM, OFWW wrote:

I am glad that you and Leon stressed using the program, Thank you.

Be careful, you'll have a shop full of Festool before you know it.

ROTFLOL, I doubt it, but that domino tool the way Leon used it makes
be want to look and see what it costs.

BAH Humbug, I just had to go look, but hey! They give you free
shipping.

LOL, Don't you have a spare thousand dollars for that tool???

VBG

AND you need to run a shop vac with that tool to insure that the chips
are cleared out of the mortise. The Festool brand vacs are right on up
there also BUT IMHO worth every penny. They are exceptionally quiet.
You seldom hear them running when using another power tool, even sanders.


They would have had to do an excellent job of bafflling air flow,
without introducing a restriction. I have one that you have to wear
ear protectors or you cannot hear anything, I have another that is a
lot quieter with similar CFM. I put it in the garage attic space
running a hose to the Oneida dust separator and its intake at the
center of my garage. One hose that can reach anything and hook up to
my equipment and also clean the floor with it. No more yelling to be
heard, and like you say with yours, mine is quite, but mine has
plywood separating it from the garage. (w/remote control)


Think I'll do fine without it and with what I have, plus if I get
hungry I can eat biscuits which is better than playing a game of
domino's.


You really need to be doing volume to justify the expense, I have had my
Domino since early 2008 IIRC and I have averaged about 1500 mortises for
each year that I have had it so it has paid me back in spades owning one.


That would be my reason for owning one. That does speak to the
durability of the tool.

That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of
those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would
be a shop use tool only.

On 2/5/2016 2:04 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 10:14:56 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2016 1:17 AM, OFWW wrote:

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops.

Unless you have some programming chops, and have a direct need for
rolling your own "Dynamic Components", you won't notice anything that
will impact your use of SU Make for woodworking at all.

I'm pretty sure Leon has always used the free version since day 1.

As previously noted, you can download, and use, many Dynamic Components
(cabinets, fences, stairs, etc) on the 3D Warehouse straight to your
model in the free version.

I personally would miss the "Solid Object" tools, available only in SU
Pro, but only because I've experienced them by having the Pro version
for a number of years.

Never missed them before I upgraded to SU Pro because there are many
different ways to skin any particular cat in SU, including thousands of
SU plug-ins.

The "Plug-ins" and extensions (there is an Extension Warehouse under you
WINDOW menu also) are another world of utilitarian tools you need to
check into, most free, but some need to be purchased. There are also
third party sites dedicated solely to SU plug-ins. Google is your friend.

I build homes, and do a lot of kitchen and bath remodeling, therefore
the Pro version that comes with "Layout", was imperative for me to
generate industry standard, and formatted, construction documents for
permitting, bidding and building.

Either version is hard to beat for the price as a design tool, a
presentation tool to clients, as well as to design, build and fabricate
just about anything you can think of.

Wouldn't leave home, or go to the shop, without it ... literally.

Yeah, I have a copy on my tablet/notebook with duplicate files from my
desktop in case I have a thought.

On Layout, is that the ability to layout the floor plan and walls, and
then put in the various cabinets and appliances to see a picture of
the final results of the cabinet designs?

IIRC it is used to filter out sections of the drawing that are not
pertinent to whom you might be giving a drawing to. And IIRC it lets
you set that part of drawing to scale.

I think you can do what you mentioned above with the free version. You
can simply put different elements on different layers.



Or so that I can redesign my garage layout for tool locations, etc?


I did that with the free version. I in fact have a complete model of my
home drawn up with all my pieces that I have built in the model and the
shop items too.

One thing I have not mentioned is that in our home I place the furniture
drawing/model in to the model of our home to see what is going to look
like in place. I built a large cabinet/pantry 4 years ago, 8'x8', and
was going to stain it a very dark color to match our kitchen cabinets.
In the model of the house it looked like a black hole. I ended up
toning back a lot of the dark and going two tone with the finish.

I will to this for the customer too, but just the room that the piece
that I am going to build.

Concept
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Reality
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

And a shot of our home with populated with pieces you may have seen already.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/



I would miss those, and as my wife lacks visual imagination in certain
area, It would be hard to show her something without a picture of it.

I can only envision doing this as a business if the economy went
dramatically south and I needed a source of income. I have learned to
do things sparingly for friends. True friends, IYKWIM.

I've seen some of what it can do based on geographic location, I am
totally impressed. You can use that for tree placement around a bldg
with deciduous trees for energy management amongst other things.

On 2/5/2016 2:26 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip




Think I'll do fine without it and with what I have, plus if I get
hungry I can eat biscuits which is better than playing a game of
domino's.


You really need to be doing volume to justify the expense, I have had my
Domino since early 2008 IIRC and I have averaged about 1500 mortises for
each year that I have had it so it has paid me back in spades owning one.


That would be my reason for owning one. That does speak to the
durability of the tool.

The tool literally looks like it did when I bought it. And contrary to
what some have indicated, the 5mm bit, I have 4 sizes, has not been
replaced or resharpened. That in itself is amazing considering that
this bit alone has cut over 7,000 mortises.

Yes I eat, breath, and sleep Festool products, guilty. But I have not
seen any brand that holds up like this one does. I have a couple of
Festool sanders, a drill, and track saw, also

This will blow your mind. LOL I'm still not sure Swingman believes me.
I built a small entertainment center of a customer in November. I
sanded all joints and the glue squeeze out with a 120 grit Festool brand
Granat sand paper. I also removed the initial finish on the cabinet top
that I was not happy with. Removing the finish alone is tough on sand
paper.

Now I am working on the night stands and did the same, sanded all joints
and glue squeeze out and in fact this morning sanded the FF
stain and first coat of varnish off.

This was all done on both projects with a "single" piece of 120 grit
Granat sand paper on the Festool Rotex sander.


That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of
those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would
be a shop use tool only.


I have had a Delta mortiser for about 18 years. I have used it about 10
times, maybe. They are cool but I have not touched it since getting the
Domino. Essentially the Domino is operated and very much like a Plate
Joiner, AKA Biscuit cutter, except much much more accurate.
I have been interest in woodworking since I was 10 and have only really
been selling my work since retiring at 40.
IMHO the Domino enabled me to step up my game significantly and IMHO
several times more useful than a mortiser and shockingly faster than a
mortiser. With the Domino you do not have to cut a tenon for the mating
part. Anyway........ ;~)

On 2/5/2016 2:04 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Layout, is that the ability to layout the floor plan and walls, and
then put in the various cabinets and appliances to see a picture of
the final results of the cabinet designs?

Layout allows you to generate, from your model, a set of professional
construction plans (dimension, scale, annotate, and print, etc) and
views suitable for permitting, bidding and building, just as an
architect or engineer would do.

Or so that I can redesign my garage layout for tool locations, etc?

Ya don't need Layout to do that, just use your Sketchup...

Here's mine:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mod...0-aca29128c131

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:38:47 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/5/2016 2:04 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 10:14:56 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2016 1:17 AM, OFWW wrote:

Oh, I didn't realize that. Right now I am in the 30 day tryout period
of the pro. Wondering what kind of a hit I will take when that part of
the program stops.

Unless you have some programming chops, and have a direct need for
rolling your own "Dynamic Components", you won't notice anything that
will impact your use of SU Make for woodworking at all.

I'm pretty sure Leon has always used the free version since day 1.

As previously noted, you can download, and use, many Dynamic Components
(cabinets, fences, stairs, etc) on the 3D Warehouse straight to your
model in the free version.

I personally would miss the "Solid Object" tools, available only in SU
Pro, but only because I've experienced them by having the Pro version
for a number of years.

Never missed them before I upgraded to SU Pro because there are many
different ways to skin any particular cat in SU, including thousands of
SU plug-ins.

The "Plug-ins" and extensions (there is an Extension Warehouse under you
WINDOW menu also) are another world of utilitarian tools you need to
check into, most free, but some need to be purchased. There are also
third party sites dedicated solely to SU plug-ins. Google is your friend.

I build homes, and do a lot of kitchen and bath remodeling, therefore
the Pro version that comes with "Layout", was imperative for me to
generate industry standard, and formatted, construction documents for
permitting, bidding and building.

Either version is hard to beat for the price as a design tool, a
presentation tool to clients, as well as to design, build and fabricate
just about anything you can think of.

Wouldn't leave home, or go to the shop, without it ... literally.

Yeah, I have a copy on my tablet/notebook with duplicate files from my
desktop in case I have a thought.

On Layout, is that the ability to layout the floor plan and walls, and
then put in the various cabinets and appliances to see a picture of
the final results of the cabinet designs?

IIRC it is used to filter out sections of the drawing that are not
pertinent to whom you might be giving a drawing to. And IIRC it lets
you set that part of drawing to scale.

I think you can do what you mentioned above with the free version. You
can simply put different elements on different layers.

Cool.


Or so that I can redesign my garage layout for tool locations, etc?


I did that with the free version. I in fact have a complete model of my
home drawn up with all my pieces that I have built in the model and the
shop items too.

One thing I have not mentioned is that in our home I place the furniture
drawing/model in to the model of our home to see what is going to look
like in place. I built a large cabinet/pantry 4 years ago, 8'x8', and
was going to stain it a very dark color to match our kitchen cabinets.
In the model of the house it looked like a black hole. I ended up
toning back a lot of the dark and going two tone with the finish.

I will to this for the customer too, but just the room that the piece
that I am going to build.

Concept
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Reality
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Is that real or is that Memorex?

And a shot of our home with populated with pieces you may have seen already.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Awesome, that sure set my mind at rest.


I would miss those, and as my wife lacks visual imagination in certain
area, It would be hard to show her something without a picture of it.

I can only envision doing this as a business if the economy went
dramatically south and I needed a source of income. I have learned to
do things sparingly for friends. True friends, IYKWIM.

I've seen some of what it can do based on geographic location, I am
totally impressed. You can use that for tree placement around a bldg
with deciduous trees for energy management amongst other things.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:12:19 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2016 2:04 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Layout, is that the ability to layout the floor plan and walls, and
then put in the various cabinets and appliances to see a picture of
the final results of the cabinet designs?

Layout allows you to generate, from your model, a set of professional
construction plans (dimension, scale, annotate, and print, etc) and
views suitable for permitting, bidding and building, just as an
architect or engineer would do.

Or so that I can redesign my garage layout for tool locations, etc?

Ya don't need Layout to do that, just use your Sketchup...

Here's mine:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mod...0-aca29128c131

I like very much, do you have too many drawers?

I D/L's the drawing so now I can walk around your shop from here? And
I would probably kill the comment about where your Festools are
stored, even tho you have a great view of the shop. Were all your
upper cabinets Euro styled? It seems hard to believe you built so much
out of the Plywood you picked up. I like the idea of covering up the
work stations not in use to keep the dust out. Why I never considered
that is beyond me. So I put a dust extractor fan in, Rikon.

All in all, it looks very nice.

That said.... Now Sonny, he has a real man cave. Stuff stashed for
centuries splorf all that history around him, probably something
only an outside visitor would love to see.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The tool literally looks like it did when I bought it. And contrary
to what some have indicated, the 5mm bit, I have 4 sizes, has not been
replaced or resharpened. That in itself is amazing considering that
this bit alone has cut over 7,000 mortises.

Yes I eat, breath, and sleep Festool products, guilty. But I have not
seen any brand that holds up like this one does. I have a couple of
Festool sanders, a drill, and track saw, also

This will blow your mind. LOL I'm still not sure Swingman believes
me.
I built a small entertainment center of a customer in November. I
sanded all joints and the glue squeeze out with a 120 grit Festool
brand Granat sand paper. I also removed the initial finish on the
cabinet top that I was not happy with. Removing the finish alone is
tough on sand paper.

Now I am working on the night stands and did the same, sanded all
joints and glue squeeze out and in fact this morning sanded the FF
stain and first coat of varnish off.

This was all done on both projects with a "single" piece of 120 grit
Granat sand paper on the Festool Rotex sander.


Has anyone tried Festool paper on other sanders? I used two pieces of 24
grit Saphir paper sanding down some Homasote Spline roadbed with my
Festool sander and Fein vac, and while it impressed everybody at the
[model railroad] club I can't swing $700 for a "once every year or two"
tool. $70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

Puckdropper

On 2/5/2016 11:34 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The tool literally looks like it did when I bought it. And contrary
to what some have indicated, the 5mm bit, I have 4 sizes, has not been
replaced or resharpened. That in itself is amazing considering that
this bit alone has cut over 7,000 mortises.

Yes I eat, breath, and sleep Festool products, guilty. But I have not
seen any brand that holds up like this one does. I have a couple of
Festool sanders, a drill, and track saw, also

This will blow your mind. LOL I'm still not sure Swingman believes
me.
I built a small entertainment center of a customer in November. I
sanded all joints and the glue squeeze out with a 120 grit Festool
brand Granat sand paper. I also removed the initial finish on the
cabinet top that I was not happy with. Removing the finish alone is
tough on sand paper.

Now I am working on the night stands and did the same, sanded all
joints and glue squeeze out and in fact this morning sanded the FF
stain and first coat of varnish off.

This was all done on both projects with a "single" piece of 120 grit
Granat sand paper on the Festool Rotex sander.


Has anyone tried Festool paper on other sanders? I used two pieces of 24
grit Saphir paper sanding down some Homasote Spline roadbed with my
Festool sander and Fein vac, and while it impressed everybody at the
[model railroad] club I can't swing $700 for a "once every year or two"
tool. $70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

Puckdropper


The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid 4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But... I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander, made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

On 2/5/2016 10:36 PM, OFWW wrote:

I like very much, do you have too many drawers?

I did ... gave some to Leon.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 6:05:39 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Well, I have to say I have never seen that sander. We don't get wood working shows here for some reason, they never have manufacturer demos at our local equipment distributors, and I haven't been in a Woodcraft in years. So.... never seen it. My first impression was, no... I don't want a Speedbloc type sander, but then I watched the video and that isn't it at all. It looks pretty well though out for the grip.

I read a ton of reviews, some professional and some not, some on FOG. They all say the same thing, this is a finish sander, and does great finish work. In fact the only complaints I read about was that it didn't do more than finishing. Users recommend to buy the next sander up for an overall utility sander. That's not a deal breaker for me as I have a stable of sanders for hard work, including one old Ridgid I have used to sand concrete more than once with a 40gr pad. With quality paper, my other sanders work fine, although they are noisy as hell and the dust collection isn't as good compared to the newer stuff.

The $200 isn't scary at all, another surprise. I paid that for my Milwaukee half sheet sander 20 years ago!

Thanks for the heads up.

Have you used the Mirka gold paper? This is the stuff I usually get, and when I do I get this package most of the time since I am really on board (as are just about all serious finishers) of working through the grits with no skipping.

http://goo.gl/uw2nEY

The only thing I don't like about the Mirka gold is that they are stearate coated. This has on occasion fouled finishes, especially when dying wood. Cheaper stearates can foul anything when they get hot. Looking around at the Festool discs they say they are "coated" but it doesn't say with what. Have you ever used the regular Festool discs? They aren't cheap, but they really aren't that expensive when you put them in as a "disc per project" cost. Not talking about the Granat stuff... it's expensive!

I miss my old sandpaper connection. When I was doing a lot of finishing and refinishing I used sandpaper like guy with a cold uses tissues. I got his contact info from a finishing forum. I found that he bought all the roll ends of Klingspor and Mirka he cold, then took them back to his machinery and punched out 5" and 6" discs on his own. He only bought upper end paper and had some odd grit sizes, but his price was about .35 a disc or less depending on what he had in stock and how much you bought. Apparently the cheap sandpaper from China a India did him in as he couldn't get as cheap as his big production shops demanded. And he had stearated and non in most grits. He is no longer in the paper business.

Robert

On 2/7/2016 3:11 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 6:05:39 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander.
Oddly it is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only"
Bosch sander. Although only considered a finish sander it is silky
smooth. I played with one at a WW show a few years ago. I was
shocked at how I could literally run and guide that sander with a
single finger resting on top of the sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817


Well, I have to say I have never seen that sander. We don't get wood
working shows here for some reason, they never have manufacturer
demos at our local equipment distributors, and I haven't been in a
Woodcraft in years. So... never seen it. My first impression was,
no... I don't want a Speedbloc type sander, but then I watched the
video and that isn't it at all. It looks pretty well though out for
the grip.

Well you should go to to Woodcraft to try it out If you put it on the
short list. I don't own it but again I was really surprised that I
could guide it with a finger on the top and it did not bounce around
like many ROS sanders if you don't have a good hold. And it is likely to
last a very long time.



I read a ton of reviews, some professional and some not, some on FOG.
They all say the same thing, this is a finish sander, and does great
finish work. In fact the only complaints I read about was that it
didn't do more than finishing.

That would be my bone of contention. The Rotex will just about keep up
with a belt sander in aggressive mode but two hands are required in
either mode. My Rotex replaced an old right angle PC ROS which was also
aggressive. BUT I do have the small rectangular Festool finish sander
and it can get into corners, something that round disk sanders do not
do. Otherwise I would strongly consider it if any of my Festool sanders
actually wear out. I did wear a PC Speedbloc out. ;~)


Users recommend to buy the next
sander up for an overall utility sander. That's not a deal breaker
for me as I have a stable of sanders for hard work, including one old
Ridgid I have used to sand concrete more than once with a 40gr pad.
With quality paper, my other sanders work fine, although they are
noisy as hell and the dust collection isn't as good compared to the
newer stuff.

I don't recall any of the Festool sanders being noisy.


The $200 isn't scary at all, another surprise. I paid that for my
Milwaukee half sheet sander 20 years ago!

Thanks for the heads up.

sure!

Have you used the Mirka gold paper?

Not on a sander. Before Festool I use a lot of 3M which I did not have
to pay for. I acquired it in 250 disk rolls. That was when I worked
for a 3M distributor. We looked into taking on Mirka way back when as
many of the GM dealerships that we sold to used that brand in the body
shops.
I do use Mirka Goldflex Soft 4.5" x 5.5" tear off pads. These come on a
roll and tear off. They are foam backed and great for easing edges and
uneven surfaces but are strictly for hand sanding. They last pretty
well and the foam backing gives them just enough stiffness to easily use
them with out a block of wood, sand with just your hands on the paper.
Several months ago 3M came out with a rubber backed paper that was
supposed to last a long time. I tried a couple of sheets and was
unimpressed. I have been using the foam back Mirka for hand sanding for
about 4 years now.



This is the stuff I usually get,
and when I do I get this package most of the time since I am really
on board (as are just about all serious finishers) of working through
the grits with no skipping.

http://goo.gl/uw2nEY

I have strictly used Festool paper since switching to the Festool
sanders. It is expensive but it lasts a long time. I started with the
Rubin "red" paper which is interned for bare wood. And used up until I
discovered the Granat which is also good for removing paint and
finishes. The Granat is very expensive by comparison. BUT the 5" disks
I bought in a 10 pack for $13.00. That was many months ago, last Spring
maybe and I think there are 6 discs left. And no kidding I have been on
a single disk on 3 different pieces of furniture that I have built
including removing a finish on all three. Expensive until you realize
that the paper lasts 4~5 times longer because it does not load up.

On another note, if you remember a customer's Mexico imported small
table in my office, the one we were talking about at Christmas and what
may have been used used as a finish and you mentioned "tar", I thought
used diesel motor oil.
I absolutely think tar was part of the finish. This was not new
furniture but it did load up the Granat paper when I sanded the legs.
No other modern finish has loaded that paper up at all after it has dried.


The only thing I don't like about the Mirka gold is that they are
stearate coated. This has on occasion fouled finishes, especially
when dying wood. Cheaper stearates can foul anything when they get
hot. Looking around at the Festool discs they say they are "coated"
but it doesn't say with what. Have you ever used the regular Festool
discs? They aren't cheap, but they really aren't that expensive when
you put them in as a "disc per project" cost.

Yes, I use/used the Ruben Festool paper. Good paper but it does
eventually wear out. LOL. If I am sanding flat surfaces I have to stop
the sander and feel how sharp the paper is to determine when to change
it. With the dust extraction the paper does not change color and there
is no dust to judge if it is still cutting or not. You literally have
to feel the paper with your fingers to determine if it has been worn out
or not. AND it does have a relatively stiff backing, stiffer than 3M gold.



Not talking about the
Granat stuff... it's expensive!

LOL, but that stuff lasts a loooong time in my shop. AND this paper
seems to be a bit more flexible than the Ruben which lead me to think it
might tear more easily. That has not been the case yet.
It does seem to be more touchy about sanding with the grain with both my
ROS and finish sander. That is the reason that I have had to sand down
and reapply the stain finish in places on the last 3 projects. I had
scratches show up at the joints. Resanding and paying attention to
grain direction instantly solved the issue. I had to be careful with
the Rubin but it did not seem to be quite so touchy at the joints.

I bought a 100 pack of 180 grit Granat for the finish sander and IIRC it
was about $58. BUT I suspect that it is going to last me for a few
years, maybe 3~6. The Ruben 50 packs were lasting me 1~2 years. Of
course that all depends on how much work I am doing. But seriously the
Granat seems to last at least three times longer than the Rubin and
sanding dried glue and finishes is not an issue at all, the paper
remains clean. I seldom wipe off glue squeeze out any more.




I miss my old sandpaper connection. When I was doing a lot of
finishing and refinishing I used sandpaper like guy with a cold uses
tissues. I got his contact info from a finishing forum. I found
that he bought all the roll ends of Klingspor and Mirka he cold, then
took them back to his machinery and punched out 5" and 6" discs on
his own. He only bought upper end paper and had some odd grit sizes,
but his price was about .35 a disc or less depending on what he had
in stock and how much you bought. Apparently the cheap sandpaper from
China a India did him in as he couldn't get as cheap as his big
production shops demanded. And he had stearated and non in most
grits. He is no longer in the paper business.

Robert

On 2/5/2016 4:03 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/5/2016 2:26 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip

That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of
those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would
be a shop use tool only.


I have had a Delta mortiser for about 18 years. I have used it about 10
times, maybe. They are cool but I have not touched it since getting the
Domino. Essentially the Domino is operated and very much like a Plate
Joiner, AKA Biscuit cutter, except much much more accurate.
I have been interest in woodworking since I was 10 and have only really
been selling my work since retiring at 40.
IMHO the Domino enabled me to step up my game significantly and IMHO
several times more useful than a mortiser and shockingly faster than a
mortiser. With the Domino you do not have to cut a tenon for the mating
part. Anyway........ ;~)

I also have a Delta Mortiser. The only thing good about it is it is
cheap, and is always set up ready to go. I recommend you go with the
Domino rather than waste your money (and space) on a dedicated mortiser.
If I were younger, and planned on making lots of furniture, I would get
a Domino or possibly another brand that does the same thing, if one
exists. A mortiser takes up space and unless you have a really nice one,
(not a cheapie like the Delta) they are less than stellar. Domino seems
to be a stellar piece, quick and easy to use and very, very useful.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 06:05:34 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode?
IOW, is there an argument for having both?

On 2/7/2016 4:31 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 06:05:34 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode?
IOW, is there an argument for having both?


Could everyone in the back seats move up to the empty ones in the front?
ROTF

Welllll.. The RO125 in aggressive mode will remove material at an
alarming rate, and in regular ROS it is more normal but IMHO still not a
finish sander. Its sanding stroke is 9/64", that is a hair under 1/8".
So I typically start my sanding in aggressive mode on solid wood only at
the joints with the Rotex. I then switch to the RO mode with the same
paper. Then I switch to a finer grit, 150 in RO mode and finish up with
the RTS 400 finish sander using 180 grit.
Both the RTS 400 and the ETS125 have a 5/64" sanding stroke, about half
that of the Rotex Ro125.

So yes the ETS125 is different than the RO125 as far as fine sanding
goes. If you are staining you will probably have to go additional
finer grits to keep from seeing the swirls. With the finish sander I
typically stop at 180. Going finer grits typically means that the stain
will come out lighter too.

If you are looking for a good Festool finish sander I would recommend
the RTS4000 or the ETS125. If you want to speed up initial sanding, the
sanding to make joints smooth and remove glue, the Rotex is going to do
that 10 times faster in aggressive mode. With the Granat 120 grit paper.
The Rotex can smooth out a glue joint with an undetectable by touch glue
line 3~5 seconds, that includes removing glue squeeze out. In regular
RO mode probably 10~15 seconds. It can do either with the regular Rubin
sand paper also however the glue will load the paper pretty quickly. I
have yet to see any loading on the Granat paper when doing this procedure.

As for as an argument for having both, I have always owned, in the past
25 years, RO sanders that were never really considered finish sanders.
And I burned through a couple of PC SpeedBloc finish sanders during that
time period. The SpeedBloc was a great sander but lacked any kind of
dust control. I like a square pad finish sander simply because it gets
into tight corners. That said in the past 4~5 years I have changed up
how I finish and assemble. While it takes significantly longer to
finish and assemble I prefinish parts that would be difficult to finish
after assembly. Soooo the ETS125 would probably work better for me
these days. I did not do any edge sanding with one but it seems to be
quite easy to control and does not require much more than a finger to
guide it.

So again, With both sanders, the Rotex and a finish sander, I could see
you cutting sanding time down to 1/3 of the time than if you were doing
all sanding with a finish sander. The Rotex is really a game changer
when considering speed of initial sanding as you are tweaking the fit of
the joints especially if the joint surfaces are not on the same plane.
After that initial sanding you could finish the rest of the grits with a
finish sander in about the same time as with the Rotex in RO mode.

With that in mind, the Rotex might be good enough right down to the
finish "polishing" if you are mostly using coarse grain woods like oak
AND use a clear finish, no stain.
Festool has videos of the Rotex demonstrated on a rough cut slam of
"whatever". They use no varnish but in the end steps they use a polish
and the wood surface is amazing.


Now I keep mentioning Aggressive, Robatoy turned me on to the Rotex and
I recall him cautioning to be careful in Aggressive mode. In that mode
the sander removes a lot of material fast. It is not a big concern of
controlling the sander, in aggressive mode, so much as the material
disappearing pronto. And especially if you are using a vac for dust
collection. You will see basically nothing as far as dust is concerned
so you don't know how much you are removing unless you check the
progress every 3~4 seconds when working on a particular problem area
like a joint.

I personally would not consider not having both. They are both equally
important tools in their own rights. They both bring something to the
table of equal importance, speed and finer finish sanding.

And remember I build a lot and speed is important to me when sanding.

Thank y'all for coming out tonight!

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:55:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/7/2016 4:31 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 06:05:34 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode?
IOW, is there an argument for having both?


Could everyone in the back seats move up to the empty ones in the front?
ROTF

Welllll.. The RO125 in aggressive mode will remove material at an
alarming rate, and in regular ROS it is more normal but IMHO still not a
finish sander. Its sanding stroke is 9/64", that is a hair under 1/8".
So I typically start my sanding in aggressive mode on solid wood only at
the joints with the Rotex. I then switch to the RO mode with the same
paper. Then I switch to a finer grit, 150 in RO mode and finish up with
the RTS 400 finish sander using 180 grit.
Both the RTS 400 and the ETS125 have a 5/64" sanding stroke, about half
that of the Rotex Ro125.

So yes the ETS125 is different than the RO125 as far as fine sanding
goes. If you are staining you will probably have to go additional
finer grits to keep from seeing the swirls. With the finish sander I
typically stop at 180. Going finer grits typically means that the stain
will come out lighter too.

If you are looking for a good Festool finish sander I would recommend
the RTS4000 or the ETS125. If you want to speed up initial sanding, the
sanding to make joints smooth and remove glue, the Rotex is going to do
that 10 times faster in aggressive mode. With the Granat 120 grit paper.
The Rotex can smooth out a glue joint with an undetectable by touch glue
line 3~5 seconds, that includes removing glue squeeze out. In regular
RO mode probably 10~15 seconds. It can do either with the regular Rubin
sand paper also however the glue will load the paper pretty quickly. I
have yet to see any loading on the Granat paper when doing this procedure.

As for as an argument for having both, I have always owned, in the past
25 years, RO sanders that were never really considered finish sanders.
And I burned through a couple of PC SpeedBloc finish sanders during that
time period. The SpeedBloc was a great sander but lacked any kind of
dust control. I like a square pad finish sander simply because it gets
into tight corners. That said in the past 4~5 years I have changed up
how I finish and assemble. While it takes significantly longer to
finish and assemble I prefinish parts that would be difficult to finish
after assembly. Soooo the ETS125 would probably work better for me
these days. I did not do any edge sanding with one but it seems to be
quite easy to control and does not require much more than a finger to
guide it.

So again, With both sanders, the Rotex and a finish sander, I could see
you cutting sanding time down to 1/3 of the time than if you were doing
all sanding with a finish sander. The Rotex is really a game changer
when considering speed of initial sanding as you are tweaking the fit of
the joints especially if the joint surfaces are not on the same plane.
After that initial sanding you could finish the rest of the grits with a
finish sander in about the same time as with the Rotex in RO mode.

With that in mind, the Rotex might be good enough right down to the
finish "polishing" if you are mostly using coarse grain woods like oak
AND use a clear finish, no stain.
Festool has videos of the Rotex demonstrated on a rough cut slam of
"whatever". They use no varnish but in the end steps they use a polish
and the wood surface is amazing.


Now I keep mentioning Aggressive, Robatoy turned me on to the Rotex and
I recall him cautioning to be careful in Aggressive mode. In that mode
the sander removes a lot of material fast. It is not a big concern of
controlling the sander, in aggressive mode, so much as the material
disappearing pronto. And especially if you are using a vac for dust
collection. You will see basically nothing as far as dust is concerned
so you don't know how much you are removing unless you check the
progress every 3~4 seconds when working on a particular problem area
like a joint.

I personally would not consider not having both. They are both equally
important tools in their own rights. They both bring something to the
table of equal importance, speed and finer finish sanding.

And remember I build a lot and speed is important to me when sanding.

Thank y'all for coming out tonight!


Good Show and especially the info, being in the back row the
explanations make up for the loss of sight because of the fat guys in
front of me.