On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:55:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/7/2016 4:31 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 06:05:34 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:

$70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be
doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper?
Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!


On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 12:15:03 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It
wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool
combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my
Bosch 5", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid
4" finisher. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose
and put the vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am
doing finer work like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not
raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/shop%2520...0filter?NCNI-5

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me
that the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a
house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as
well as custom butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a
sidebar, it is a $1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation
so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is
to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it
isn't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His
setup just sounds more professional!

As far as the paper goes, spend the money on paper. Spend the money on
paper. Spend the money on paper. Your satisfaction with your sanding
setup will start with the paper you buy, and the paper should be about
the best you can get. When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I used to
buy this stuff wholesale:

http://www.amazon.com/MIRKA-GOLD-HOL.../dp/B000XY0VZM

Good paper, good price. If you aren't going to use a ton of it, then buy
their combo pack. Worth every penny. Our old friend Robatoy turned me
on to this product as I was using 3M, and this turned out to be much
better. Lasted longer, and the hook and loop was better.

A good sander doesn't have to be a commercial grade product like Leon
has. He USES his a lot, so it makes perfect sense for him. My oldest
Milwaukee random orbit is needing to be replaced as there are no more
parts for it, but I don't use sanders enough to justify the price of a
Festool. If I had a cabinet shop, Leon and Karl have me won over on the
value of Festool, so no doubt I would own some of their products. But...
I don't. So the next refinish job I get I will either be looking at this
if it is a small one, then keep this in the stable of utility sanders:

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BO5041K...words=5+sander

or this one, the one I really want. This baby is a really nice sander,
made in Switzerland so it probably is a rebranded Elu, like my 3hp DeWalt
plunge router. If I buy this one, it is a Robert only sander. I have
tested this and it is so smooth it was sexy just turning it on:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ROS65VC-...words=5+sander

It picks up an amazing amount of dust even without a vacuum attachment
with its on board filter system.

Do some homework and you can make yourself a great setup for a very
reasonable cost. Oh yeah... and spend the money on paper!

Robert


Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it
is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander.
Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with
one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally
run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the
sander.

http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool...-sander-571817

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode?
IOW, is there an argument for having both?


Could everyone in the back seats move up to the empty ones in the front?
ROTF

Welllll.. The RO125 in aggressive mode will remove material at an
alarming rate, and in regular ROS it is more normal but IMHO still not a
finish sander. Its sanding stroke is 9/64", that is a hair under 1/8".
So I typically start my sanding in aggressive mode on solid wood only at
the joints with the Rotex. I then switch to the RO mode with the same
paper. Then I switch to a finer grit, 150 in RO mode and finish up with
the RTS 400 finish sander using 180 grit.
Both the RTS 400 and the ETS125 have a 5/64" sanding stroke, about half
that of the Rotex Ro125.

So yes the ETS125 is different than the RO125 as far as fine sanding
goes. If you are staining you will probably have to go additional
finer grits to keep from seeing the swirls. With the finish sander I
typically stop at 180. Going finer grits typically means that the stain
will come out lighter too.

If you are looking for a good Festool finish sander I would recommend
the RTS4000 or the ETS125. If you want to speed up initial sanding, the
sanding to make joints smooth and remove glue, the Rotex is going to do
that 10 times faster in aggressive mode. With the Granat 120 grit paper.
The Rotex can smooth out a glue joint with an undetectable by touch glue
line 3~5 seconds, that includes removing glue squeeze out. In regular
RO mode probably 10~15 seconds. It can do either with the regular Rubin
sand paper also however the glue will load the paper pretty quickly. I
have yet to see any loading on the Granat paper when doing this procedure.

As for as an argument for having both, I have always owned, in the past
25 years, RO sanders that were never really considered finish sanders.
And I burned through a couple of PC SpeedBloc finish sanders during that
time period. The SpeedBloc was a great sander but lacked any kind of
dust control. I like a square pad finish sander simply because it gets
into tight corners. That said in the past 4~5 years I have changed up
how I finish and assemble. While it takes significantly longer to
finish and assemble I prefinish parts that would be difficult to finish
after assembly. Soooo the ETS125 would probably work better for me
these days. I did not do any edge sanding with one but it seems to be
quite easy to control and does not require much more than a finger to
guide it.

So again, With both sanders, the Rotex and a finish sander, I could see
you cutting sanding time down to 1/3 of the time than if you were doing
all sanding with a finish sander. The Rotex is really a game changer
when considering speed of initial sanding as you are tweaking the fit of
the joints especially if the joint surfaces are not on the same plane.
After that initial sanding you could finish the rest of the grits with a
finish sander in about the same time as with the Rotex in RO mode.

With that in mind, the Rotex might be good enough right down to the
finish "polishing" if you are mostly using coarse grain woods like oak
AND use a clear finish, no stain.
Festool has videos of the Rotex demonstrated on a rough cut slam of
"whatever". They use no varnish but in the end steps they use a polish
and the wood surface is amazing.


Now I keep mentioning Aggressive, Robatoy turned me on to the Rotex and
I recall him cautioning to be careful in Aggressive mode. In that mode
the sander removes a lot of material fast. It is not a big concern of
controlling the sander, in aggressive mode, so much as the material
disappearing pronto. And especially if you are using a vac for dust
collection. You will see basically nothing as far as dust is concerned
so you don't know how much you are removing unless you check the
progress every 3~4 seconds when working on a particular problem area
like a joint.

I personally would not consider not having both. They are both equally
important tools in their own rights. They both bring something to the
table of equal importance, speed and finer finish sanding.

And remember I build a lot and speed is important to me when sanding.

Thank y'all for coming out tonight!


Good Show and especially the info, being in the back row the
explanations make up for the loss of sight because of the fat guys in
front of me.