I have a kitchen cabinet job coming up, just installing not building.
I know how to hang cabinets and place base cabs, but it's always been
just a few at a time and I could take my time, previously. I also have
always worked alone.

So I'm looking for tips, pointers, advice, etc., for being more
efficient at the job, tools that work, tools that are a waste of
time/$$, techniques to use vs. techniques to avoid.

I'm entertaining the idea of hiring a helper, mainly for lifting and
holding in place. I'm also entertaining the idea of buying/building
some adjustable cabinet lifts to hold against the wall and steady for
attaching. I'd rather invest in tools than pay a helper, but my mind's
not made up yet.

I've seen techniques where cabinets are attached to each other, first on
the floor, then listed into place on the wall as an attached group.
Does this save time?

Go on, now... let 'er rip!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/2/2015 5:59 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I'm entertaining the idea of hiring a helper, mainly for lifting and
holding in place. I'm also entertaining the idea of buying/building
some adjustable cabinet lifts to hold against the wall and steady for
attaching. I'd rather invest in tools than pay a helper, but my mind's
not made up yet.

First order of business is to get your blocking in the wall for the top
of the base cabinets, and the top, and bottom, of the wall cabinets,
similar to this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...261 359111762

I use a laser level to establish the top line of the base cabinets, shim
them to the line, then measure up from there for the bottom of the wall
cabinets.

We usually install the base cabinets first.

At that point I joint a 2 x 4 perfectly flat, as long as necessary,
attach/screw that to the wall, perfectly level, for your all cabinets to
sit upon, thusly:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 30363468274

Personally, I would not waste money on a cabinet lift system of any
kind, unless you're working alone.

I've seen techniques where cabinets are attached to each other, first on
the floor, then listed into place on the wall as an attached group. Does
this save time?

We try to attach as long a run of cabinets together as possible (that
two people can handle) prior to lifting them up on the aforementioned
leveled 2 x 4's, simply because it saves time in shimming a run to the wall.

To do this, it is advantageous to have a flat surface to work from ...
we usually use a sheet of plywood on the island cabinets, or a flat floor.

We then shim and screw the wall cabinets to the wall, starting at the
top, making sure they are level in all planes.

Have a ton more photos if you think they would be helpful.

Ask away ...

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/2/2015 6:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
I use a laser level to establish the top line of the base cabinets, shim
them to the line, then measure up from there for the bottom of the wall
cabinets.

We usually install the base cabinets first.

At that point I joint a 2 x 4 perfectly flat, as long as necessary,
attach/screw that to the wall, perfectly level, for your all cabinets to
sit upon, thusly:

Another example, clearly showing the top of base cabinet line we
established FIRST.

(Leon completely lost his head that day):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...45422630596018

That particular group of photos of that kitchen pretty well illustrates
Leon's and my approach to installing a kitchen full of cabinets, which
should give you a good idea of what to do for a lasting job.

BTW, ate Thanksgiving dinner at that home last week and the cabinets
still look, and most importantly perform, like the day we finished ...
and I looked very hard for anything that needed tweaking.

Ahem ... you will not find that solid of an installation in the $2m+
homes hereabouts ... I know because I'm called on constantly to make
things, like doors and drawers, work again in what passes for cabinetry
these days.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/2/15 6:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2015 5:59 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I'm entertaining the idea of hiring a helper, mainly for lifting and
holding in place. I'm also entertaining the idea of buying/building
some adjustable cabinet lifts to hold against the wall and steady for
attaching. I'd rather invest in tools than pay a helper, but my mind's
not made up yet.

First order of business is to get your blocking in the wall for the top
of the base cabinets, and the top, and bottom, of the wall cabinets,
similar to this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...261 359111762


I wish!! Remodel, old cabinets are gone, I'm putting up the new ones.
I'll check for blocking, man that would be awesome if someone had the
forethought.



I use a laser level to establish the top line of the base cabinets, shim
them to the line, then measure up from there for the bottom of the wall
cabinets.

We usually install the base cabinets first.

At that point I joint a 2 x 4 perfectly flat, as long as necessary,
attach/screw that to the wall, perfectly level, for your all cabinets to
sit upon, thusly:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...7 30363468274


I've done that in the past, but I'm not sure If I can on this job as I
don't know I need to leave the walls intact. I'll find out tomorrow.
*Hopefully* they are repainting and I can screw a tuba4 to the wall and
patch the holes.


Personally, I would not waste money on a cabinet lift system of any
kind, unless you're working alone.


I'm looking at something like the T-JAK support.
In combination with the tuba4 support rail I think I could go it alone.
It also looks like something I'd use for other things. But yeah, with
a helper and the support rail I don't think I'd use it a second time.


I've seen techniques where cabinets are attached to each other, first on
the floor, then listed into place on the wall as an attached group. Does
this save time?

We try to attach as long a run of cabinets together as possible (that
two people can handle) prior to lifting them up on the aforementioned
leveled 2 x 4's, simply because it saves time in shimming a run to the
wall.

To do this, it is advantageous to have a flat surface to work from ...
we usually use a sheet of plywood on the island cabinets, or a flat floor.


I was thinking that would be the best way to screw them together.
I'll definitely do that if I go the helper route.

Excellent advice all around, which is what I expected from you.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/2/15 6:48 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2015 6:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
I use a laser level to establish the top line of the base cabinets, shim
them to the line, then measure up from there for the bottom of the wall
cabinets.

We usually install the base cabinets first.

At that point I joint a 2 x 4 perfectly flat, as long as necessary,
attach/screw that to the wall, perfectly level, for your all cabinets to
sit upon, thusly:

Another example, clearly showing the top of base cabinet line we
established FIRST.

(Leon completely lost his head that day):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...45422630596018



That's an amazing set of cabinets!
I notice you went with top first, then base on this job. That's what
I've seen advised from most people. The other post you said you did the
base, first.

What are *your* reasons for both?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...45422630596018


That particular group of photos of that kitchen pretty well
illustrates Leon's and my approach to installing a kitchen full of
cabinets, which should give you a good idea of what to do for a
lasting job.


I enjoyed looking at all of your pictures. Beautiful work. BTW, what
are the very vertical cabinet enclosures to the upper left (of Leon, in
the first picture)? Googling around, I saw some similar cabinets that
look like they were for "plates". Is that the case here (2 plates per
enclosure?). All very fine, indeed (your experience shows!) Even
your stacks of materials ready to install (cabinet shelves) leave a
memorable impression--very neat! And one "senses" that they have all
been cut to just the right size...and that they are even interchangeable!
I assume they slide into a dado (or stopped dado)...they better be the
right size, no? : )

Bill

On 12/2/2015 5:59 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I have a kitchen cabinet job coming up, just installing not building.
I know how to hang cabinets and place base cabs, but it's always been
just a few at a time and I could take my time, previously. I also have
always worked alone.

So I'm looking for tips, pointers, advice, etc., for being more
efficient at the job, tools that work, tools that are a waste of
time/$$, techniques to use vs. techniques to avoid.

I'm entertaining the idea of hiring a helper, mainly for lifting and
holding in place. I'm also entertaining the idea of buying/building
some adjustable cabinet lifts to hold against the wall and steady for
attaching. I'd rather invest in tools than pay a helper, but my mind's
not made up yet.

I've seen techniques where cabinets are attached to each other, first on
the floor, then listed into place on the wall as an attached group. Does
this save time?

Go on, now... let 'er rip!



What Swingman said. ;~)

Bill wrote:

I assume they slide into a dado (or stopped dado).
I re-examined the pics to see (I think) that the answer to this question
is no.

On 12/2/2015 8:32 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/2/15 6:48 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2015 6:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
I use a laser level to establish the top line of the base cabinets, shim
them to the line, then measure up from there for the bottom of the wall
cabinets.

We usually install the base cabinets first.

At that point I joint a 2 x 4 perfectly flat, as long as necessary,
attach/screw that to the wall, perfectly level, for your all cabinets to
sit upon, thusly:

Another example, clearly showing the top of base cabinet line we
established FIRST.

(Leon completely lost his head that day):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...45422630596018




That's an amazing set of cabinets!
I notice you went with top first, then base on this job. That's what
I've seen advised from most people. The other post you said you did the
base, first.

What are *your* reasons for both?



If you install the top cabinets first, the bottom cabinets are not in
the way. ;~) Remember, the bottom cabinets stick out from the wall
twice as far as the top cabinets.

BUT if the floor is unlevel putting the base cabinets in first, and
level, assures you of how high the tops will be so that you can
maintain a consistant distance between the top of the base and the
bottom of the top cabinets.

On 12/2/15 9:41 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/2/2015 8:32 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/2/15 6:48 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2015 6:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
I use a laser level to establish the top line of the base cabinets,
shim
them to the line, then measure up from there for the bottom of the wall
cabinets.

We usually install the base cabinets first.

At that point I joint a 2 x 4 perfectly flat, as long as necessary,
attach/screw that to the wall, perfectly level, for your all
cabinets to
sit upon, thusly:

Another example, clearly showing the top of base cabinet line we
established FIRST.

(Leon completely lost his head that day):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...45422630596018





That's an amazing set of cabinets!
I notice you went with top first, then base on this job. That's what
I've seen advised from most people. The other post you said you did the
base, first.

What are *your* reasons for both?



If you install the top cabinets first, the bottom cabinets are not in
the way. ;~) Remember, the bottom cabinets stick out from the wall
twice as far as the top cabinets.


That was my thinking!


BUT if the floor is unlevel putting the base cabinets in first, and
level, assures you of how high the tops will be so that you can
maintain a consistant distance between the top of the base and the
bottom of the top cabinets.


I suppose one might run laser level down near the floor and find the low
and high spots and make sure you adjust from there.

I ran into that problem with the last base cabinets I installed-- floor
sloped in three directions!

Have you seen these?
http://www.ez-level.com/HowToOrder.html
I think they're awesome but at 30 bucks a pair, I can't afford to try
them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/2/15 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/2/2015 5:59 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I have a kitchen cabinet job coming up, just installing not building.
I know how to hang cabinets and place base cabs, but it's always been
just a few at a time and I could take my time, previously. I also have
always worked alone.

So I'm looking for tips, pointers, advice, etc., for being more
efficient at the job, tools that work, tools that are a waste of
time/$$, techniques to use vs. techniques to avoid.

I'm entertaining the idea of hiring a helper, mainly for lifting and
holding in place. I'm also entertaining the idea of buying/building
some adjustable cabinet lifts to hold against the wall and steady for
attaching. I'd rather invest in tools than pay a helper, but my mind's
not made up yet.

I've seen techniques where cabinets are attached to each other, first on
the floor, then listed into place on the wall as an attached group. Does
this save time?

Go on, now... let 'er rip!



What Swingman said. ;~)

Lazy bastage! :-p

BTW, I did get a pair of these...
http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/Upp...tem-p42601.htm

I can think of a dozen times this year when I could've used them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/2/2015 10:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/2/15 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/2/2015 5:59 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I have a kitchen cabinet job coming up, just installing not building.
I know how to hang cabinets and place base cabs, but it's always been
just a few at a time and I could take my time, previously. I also have
always worked alone.

So I'm looking for tips, pointers, advice, etc., for being more
efficient at the job, tools that work, tools that are a waste of
time/$$, techniques to use vs. techniques to avoid.

I'm entertaining the idea of hiring a helper, mainly for lifting and
holding in place. I'm also entertaining the idea of buying/building
some adjustable cabinet lifts to hold against the wall and steady for
attaching. I'd rather invest in tools than pay a helper, but my mind's
not made up yet.

I've seen techniques where cabinets are attached to each other, first on
the floor, then listed into place on the wall as an attached group. Does
this save time?

Go on, now... let 'er rip!



What Swingman said. ;~)

Lazy bastage! :-p

BTW, I did get a pair of these...
http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/Upp...tem-p42601.htm

I can think of a dozen times this year when I could've used them.



I think it might be easier to learn to ride a unicycle. ;~)

On 12/2/2015 8:28 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I've done that in the past, but I'm not sure If I can on this job as I
don't know I need to leave the walls intact. I'll find out tomorrow.
*Hopefully* they are repainting and I can screw a tuba4 to the wall and
patch the holes.

In the normal course of events, the 2 x 4 is going in a spot where the
future backsplash is going/being replaced, so there is no patching involved.

AAMOF, with drywall we always take that area under the wall cabinets
to-the-studs and replace any drywall with cement board.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/2/2015 8:32 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I notice you went with top first, then base on this job. That's what
I've seen advised from most people. The other post you said you did the
base, first.

What are *your* reasons for both?

The necessity for lining up wall and base cabinets is usually the
deciding factor, but it is also a matter of preference.

I generally prefer to do the base cabinets first.

With the base cabinets, san toe kick and sitting on a pre-installed,
level/plumb base, you have more wiggle room with lining wall and base
cabinets to spec, so you can go either way.

When the toe kick is built-in to the base cabinets, and that run needs
to be shimmed leveled and plumb, and since a good deal of the budget
money in the form of expensive counter tops is going on top of them, it
often pays to get the base cabinets set perfectly before putting in the
wall cabinets ... hopefully, if you did precise measurement and built
your cabinets accordingly, giving you some wiggle room with alignment
with the wall cabinets.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/2/2015 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
BTW, what are the very vertical cabinet enclosures to the upper left (of
Leon, in the first picture)?

That cabinet was custom made for two of these:

http://www.rev-a-shelf.com/popup.asp...48-TP-58-1.jpg

The vertical spaced area above is used for cookie sheets and similar
oven pans.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:59:06 -0600
-MIKE- wrote:

I have a kitchen cabinet job coming up, just installing not building.
I know how to hang cabinets and place base cabs, but it's always been
just a few at a time and I could take my time, previously. I also
have always worked alone.

pinch cleats might make it a one man job

Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2015 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
BTW, what are the very vertical cabinet enclosures to the upper left (of
Leon, in the first picture)?

That cabinet was custom made for two of these:

http://www.rev-a-shelf.com/popup.asp...48-TP-58-1.jpg



Thanks! Very fancy!


The vertical spaced area above is used for cookie sheets and similar
oven pans.

On 12/3/15 1:37 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:59:06 -0600 -MIKE-
wrote:

I have a kitchen cabinet job coming up, just installing not
building. I know how to hang cabinets and place base cabs, but it's
always been just a few at a time and I could take my time,
previously. I also have always worked alone.

pinch cleats might make it a one man job


French cleats are a great concept an I've made and used them, but I
would never try them for more than a few cabinets.

The big downfall of the a cleat hanging system is the inability to shim.
If you needed to shim the cabinet out from the wall at the top, it
would raise the cabinet due to the bevel in the cleat. In order for the
cabinet to come out, it has to also go up on the bevel.

Since I have yet to meet a wall that was perfectly straight and plumb,
that leaves me with the singular option of somehow shimming the cleat
perfectly straight. Also, the way a cleat works, it has to be recessed
or it sticks out from the wall. Cabinets need to be flush. Many
cabinets have a recessed back panel, but the side panels would hit the
wall cleat. I'm not about to notch out all the side panels at the cleat
and I'm not about to use individual wall cleats for each cabinet.

In the time in takes me to do all this accommodation for a cleat system,
I'd have the cabinets hung. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Friday, December 4, 2015 at 12:11:13 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

You have some good instruction from others, so just consider this another "look". Strictly my opinions. Remember, my business is built on speed, dash and accuracy. I give my clients what they want, but in my business I rarely have a "sky's the limit" customer, so all methods are adjusted accordingly.

French cleats are a great concept an I've made and used them, but I
would never try them for more than a few cabinets.

I hate permanent cleats, and interlocking/French/San Diego style cleats even more. Not worth the time, effort or tomfoolery needed to put them into operation.


The big downfall of the a cleat hanging system is the inability to shim.
If you needed to shim the cabinet out from the wall at the top, it
would raise the cabinet due to the bevel in the cleat. In order for the
cabinet to come out, it has to also go up on the bevel.

Since I have yet to meet a wall that was perfectly straight and plumb,
that leaves me with the singular option of somehow shimming the cleat
perfectly straight.
In the time in takes me to do all this accommodation for a cleat system,
I'd have the cabinets hung. :-)

Maybe...

This is what I do, YMMV. I rarely ever run into a nice straight wall, or a wall that is properly framed, or one that hasn't had the framing layout modified to accommodate plumbing, electric, venting, etc.

So I do this: I push all the bottom cabs together and measure to make sure they won't need any modifications or extras to determine the final layout of the uppers. When I am satisfied with my measurements, I lay out the cabinets on the wall where they will be hung, and pop lines that are level and plumb according to the correct measurements.

Then I cover the areas to be covered with 1/2" plywood, all cuts about 3/8" short. Glue the ply with PL400, and screw to any available studs or other framing members. I only do this to the uppers, so it doesn't take long. Then I screw 12" pieces of 2X4 between the adjoining carcasses lined up on the previously mentioned chalk line as a removable cleat.

While I certainly get a great deal of the hanging screws into wall stud, if I miss (or if it is intended) I get a good bite into plywood. I put a string line across the face of the cabinets, and shim accordingly after I get a couple of screws in to hold the cabs in place. With the short cleats, I can shim the cabinet stiles to make a perfect joint then screw them together, and have hard backing (the plywood) to put large shims in to hold them in place.

To clarify, I don't actually use shims, and don't like those either for most work. A shim only supports that little area it immediately touches and can distend or warp the shimmed project later on. It takes me seconds to go outside and cut myself a handful of wedges from a clean 2X4. My typical wedges are about 12 to 16 inches long, and from 3/8" or 1/4" to 0". I slide those behind the abutting carcasses to get both sides braced at the same time, and secure the faces. I shoot a brad through the cabinets in either side of the bottoms to hold the wedge/shim in place. Remove the 12" cleats one at a time and shim the backs of the cabinets (if needed) against the plywood backing. LONG wedges make the cabinet install really solid and even with 42" cabinets will almost completely stop all flex. Buzz off all the wedges with the oscillator.

If you are attaching a tile/marble backsplash directly onto the sheetrock, your tiles will fit neatly under the backs of the cabinets. If you are going to mount a backer boards, you can run that up to the bottom of the cabinet and set your tile on top of that finishing under the cabinets. If it is backer for tile that is going to have a post form top, then I run the backer board behind the backs of the base cabs by about 2 inches to make a better looking finish detail.

It sounds like more work than it is. I have experimented with a lot of different methods and technologies and this works best for me. And even if it is a bit more time up front, you can dial in the wedges so well that even the nastiest walls can have nearly perfectly straight cabs on them. Any by hanging them this way, I eliminate "those doors that don't line up right because the walls are so twisted" and have found that lining doors is almost eliminated.

If I have the luxury (and money in the project to redo all the sheetrock, I do as Karly has shown and block out the whole wall so every screw is a winner. But after that it is long wedge and stringline time for me when hanging.

Robert

On 12/4/15 2:50 PM, wrote:

Maybe...

This is what I do, YMMV. I rarely ever run into a nice straight
wall, or a wall that is properly framed, or one that hasn't had the
framing layout modified to accommodate plumbing, electric, venting,
etc.

So I do this: I push all the bottom cabs together and measure to
make sure they won't need any modifications or extras to determine
the final layout of the uppers. When I am satisfied with my
measurements, I lay out the cabinets on the wall where they will be
hung, and pop lines that are level and plumb according to the correct
measurements.


Great info! I'm think of getting a rotary laser level.
I've been wanting one for some time and this may be the job for it.


Then I cover the areas to be covered with 1/2" plywood, all cuts
about 3/8" short. Glue the ply with PL400, and screw to any
available studs or other framing members. I only do this to the
uppers, so it doesn't take long.

That's brilliant.
Just to clear... you're covering the wall behind the upper cabs with
1/2" plywood so that it's basically and entire shadow of the cabinets
minus 3/16" around the perimeter.
Do you now have to add a narrow trim piece at the ends where the cabs
are 1/2' off the wall?

Then I screw 12" pieces of 2X4
between the adjoining carcasses lined up on the previously
mentioned chalk line as a removable cleat.


I was planning on running one straight 2x4 along the entire baseline for
the uppers.
You're saying attaching shorter segments of 2x4, one for each cabinet,
so that each short cleat holds up only one cabinet each? You find this
(for reasons you explained further down) makes overall adjustments easier?


While I certainly get a great deal of the hanging screws into wall
stud, if I miss (or if it is intended) I get a good bite into
plywood. I put a string line across the face of the cabinets, and
shim accordingly after I get a couple of screws in to hold the cabs
in place. With the short cleats, I can shim the cabinet stiles to
make a perfect joint then screw them together, and have hard backing
(the plywood) to put large shims in to hold them in place.

To clarify, I don't actually use shims, and don't like those either
for most work. A shim only supports that little area it immediately
touches and can distend or warp the shimmed project later on. It
takes me seconds to go outside and cut myself a handful of wedges
from a clean 2X4. My typical wedges are about 12 to 16 inches long,
and from 3/8" or 1/4" to 0". I slide those behind the abutting
carcasses to get both sides braced at the same time, and secure the
faces. I shoot a brad through the cabinets in either side of the
bottoms to hold the wedge/shim in place.

Do you wait until all cabinets are on the wall until you run the line
and shim?
IE: cabs are sitting on cleats with a couple screws partially installed
near the top so they are up on the wall, secure, but not permanent. Then
you shim, screw the adjacent face frames together, then you secure the
top screws to the wall. Then go to bottom.

Also, are your 2x4 shims 1-1/2" wide or 3-1/2" wide?


Remove the 12" cleats one
at a time and shim the backs of the cabinets (if needed) against the
plywood backing. LONG wedges make the cabinet install really solid
and even with 42" cabinets will almost completely stop all flex.
Buzz off all the wedges with the oscillator.

If you are attaching a tile/marble backsplash directly onto the
sheetrock, your tiles will fit neatly under the backs of the
cabinets. If you are going to mount a backer boards, you can run
that up to the bottom of the cabinet and set your tile on top of that
finishing under the cabinets. If it is backer for tile that is going
to have a post form top, then I run the backer board behind the backs
of the base cabs by about 2 inches to make a better looking finish
detail.

It sounds like more work than it is. I have experimented with a lot
of different methods and technologies and this works best for me.
And even if it is a bit more time up front, you can dial in the
wedges so well that even the nastiest walls can have nearly perfectly
straight cabs on them. Any by hanging them this way, I eliminate
"those doors that don't line up right because the walls are so
twisted" and have found that lining doors is almost eliminated.

If I have the luxury (and money in the project to redo all the
sheetrock, I do as Karly has shown and block out the whole wall so
every screw is a winner. But after that it is long wedge and
stringline time for me when hanging.

Robert


Awesome info, thanks a ton for your reply!!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
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---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Friday, December 4, 2015 at 3:54:17 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/4/15 2:50 PM, wrote:

Great info! I'm think of getting a rotary laser level.
I've been wanting one for some time and this may be the job for it.

Well... I don't use a rotary laser level either. Here's why. Say you are making a run of uppers that is about 15 feet long (just for purposes of illustration). You shoot your laser line and find the ceiling (or the bottom of a valance) is 1/2" off in the length of your run. If you cabinets finish (or finish with crown) to the bottom of a valance or the to the ceiling, you will have a 1/2" gap. What do you do? If you follow the line your cabinets won't finish with the same reveal to the bottom of the ceiling/valance. If you are putting crown on the upper stile, and you want it to appear correct, you are screwed.

But think about it. Cabinets are judged in their appearance. That means in build quality, finish and installation. If you take nice cabinets and follow your level line because you are right and the ceiling is wrong, you have screwed the pooch. So I look at it this way; in 15 feet, you are off .033 inches a foot, or .1 inches across a 36" cabinet. That's not even 1/8"! Who would notice? Across 15 feet with a ugly trim or hang job, everyone would.

Even if that non level line was out a full 3/4" across that 15' run, you would still only be a little over 1/8" over the length of a 36" cabinet! And your fit to the ceiling/valance would be saved, and if you are putting up crown, it will fit tight IF you install the cabinets out of level.

So unless it is awful, I install the cabinets as close to level as possible, but with an eye three steps down the road to the trim out where I want all the trims to look good. If they are out a bit for the sake of great cosmetics, so be it. All of my clients understand that their old houses have moved and sagged a bit, so they don't expect for me to start with a perfect slate. They do pay me though to make the job look as perfect as possible.

None of this matters of course if you have cabinets that stop a foot away from a valance or ceiling. The only thing I worry about the is to make sure the floor is level enough or out of whack the same as the uppers so I can put a backsplash in that won't show the difference in height between the counter top and the bottom of the cabinet.

Then I cover the areas to be covered with 1/2" plywood, all cuts
about 3/8" short. Glue the ply with PL400, and screw to any
available studs or other framing members. I only do this to the
uppers, so it doesn't take long.

That's brilliant.
Just to clear... you're covering the wall behind the upper cabs with
1/2" plywood so that it's basically and entire shadow of the cabinets
minus 3/16" around the perimeter.

You got it. And if I find that a valance is used for a chase that holds electrical and sometimes plumbing, maybe even A/C that the people don't want to pay to relocate, I might be going back in with 30" uppers. In that case, it is even fast as I cut my plywood into 12" strips that go top and bottom, no full coverage needed. I have found that the strips don't make me happy on 42" uppers, but are plenty for 30"s.

Do you now have to add a narrow trim piece at the ends where the cabs
are 1/2' off the wall?

Yes. Folks are used to looking at that detail, so no complaints yet.

Then I screw 12" pieces of 2X4
between the adjoining carcasses lined up on the previously
mentioned chalk line as a removable cleat.


I was planning on running one straight 2x4 along the entire baseline for
the uppers.
You're saying attaching shorter segments of 2x4, one for each cabinet,
so that each short cleat holds up only one cabinet each? You find this
(for reasons you explained further down) makes overall adjustments easier?

Absolutely no doubt. When you have a solid 2x4, you wrestle to get it perfectly on the line, and any small imperfection can be reflected in your hanging. Also, the weight of a larger cabinet (say a 36X42) is heavy enough to cause undo friction when trying to manipulate the cabinets to line them up.. The whole bottom of the cabinet is binding on the 2X4, and it makes it harder than it needs to be.

But the real reason is the shorter ledge pieces make it so that I can get my long wedges across the back sides of two abutting cabinets at the same time. That makes screwing those stiles together a snap as both cabinets are adjusted exactly the same amount.


While I certainly get a great deal of the hanging screws into wall
stud, if I miss (or if it is intended) I get a good bite into
plywood. I put a string line across the face of the cabinets, and
shim accordingly after I get a couple of screws in to hold the cabs
in place. With the short cleats, I can shim the cabinet stiles to
make a perfect joint then screw them together, and have hard backing
(the plywood) to put large shims in to hold them in place.

Do you wait until all cabinets are on the wall until you run the line
and shim?
IE: cabs are sitting on cleats with a couple screws partially installed
near the top so they are up on the wall, secure, but not permanent. Then
you shim, screw the adjacent face frames together, then you secure the
top screws to the wall. Then go to bottom.

I shoot a screw into the top of the cabinets and let them rest on the cleat/ledger block that is centered on the carcass. Since the block is only 12", I can move the cabinets back and forth, a bit out of plumb (out of square cabinet or a warped stile) as needed very easily. I line the top by eye and shim as needed back and forth and drive the screws home. I get a hand full of shims an my squeeze clamps and go to work.

I clamp the stiles together when I have them perfectly aligned top and bottom in relation to the adjoining cabinet. If the wall is really off, I shim some at this time. After all stiles are clamped, out comes the string line. I shim with my extra long wedges to get them straight. At this point, they install is feeling pretty sturdy, and it is just clamps and screws, but the good fit makes it feel strong. I then drive my screws in to secure the lowers, and add as many shims as I need to get the straight. After that, you will see if you need to adjust the tops of your uppers and can loosen screws and add shims (according to your string line you moved to the top) or make sure all screws are driven up if you are happy. I shoot brads through all the shims/wedges and buzz them off.

The short pieces of 2X4 make manipulations and adjustments a breeze as you can always adjust your long wedges because you can reach them easily, but the ledge keeps the cabinet in place. I pull off the 2X4 pieces last, and if I see a gap I don't like behind the cabinet, I put a wedge in it. On most cabinets, I put a long wedge/shim where the ledger was just out of habit, just for good measure.

I think you should be able to do chin ups off your upper cabinets when installed properly, and the use if a bunch of long wedges, good screws, and proper installation techniques make them that way. I have gone into houses where I installed cabinets years ago and the stiles are still tight, (yes, the stiles have 3" screws in them, too) but the cabinets still feel really solid and look great after years of being loaded up and used by a family.

Also, are your 2x4 shims 1-1/2" wide or 3-1/2" wide?

1 1/2". I am also known to use the same wedges, maybe longer when installing base units over a poor floor. I check the fit down the sides of the carcass before I commit to a permanent install, and do what I need to do to eliminate any rocking, or fill any voids. I set up a string line to make sure I am getting them straight and level (or out of level a bit as above) and shim if needed to lift or straighten. I glue those shim/wedges down to the concrete with PL400. I do the same along the fronts under the toe space before I put the kicks on. You can make a really inexpensive cabinet feel rock steady if you check out your contact points on the concrete and fill as needed. If you don't, they will sag or move later and let the joined stiles create a gap, so I always fill anything that is over 1/16". If it is only 1/16", maybe a tiny bit larger, I fill the gap with PL400. When it hits 1/8", it gets a shim and some PL400.

Awesome info, thanks a ton for your reply!!

Good luck! Glad to be of some help, Mike. Let me know if I was unclear anywhere or if there are any other questions.

Robert

On Fri, 4 Dec 2015 00:11:07 -0600
-MIKE- wrote:

In the time in takes me to do all this accommodation for a cleat
system, I'd have the cabinets hung. :-)

guess it is a two man job then

regarding straight and plumb
i have never hung cabinets or too long ago to remember but i
would use furring to get the wall plumb and straight first i think

On 12/5/15 3:25 AM, wrote:
On Friday, December 4, 2015 at 3:54:17 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/4/15 2:50 PM, wrote:

Great info! I'm think of getting a rotary laser level. I've been
wanting one for some time and this may be the job for it.

Well... I don't use a rotary laser level either. Here's why. Say
snipped
But think about it. Cabinets are judged in their appearance. That
means in build quality, finish and installation. If you take nice
cabinets and follow your level line because you are right and the
ceiling is wrong, you have screwed the pooch. So I look at it this
way; in 15 feet, you are off .033 inches a foot, or .1 inches across
a 36" cabinet. That's not even 1/8"! Who would notice? Across 15
feet with a ugly trim or hang job, everyone would.
snipped
None of this matters of course if you have cabinets that stop a foot
away from a valance or ceiling. The only thing I worry about the is
to make sure the floor is level enough or out of whack the same as
the uppers so I can put a backsplash in that won't show the
difference in height between the counter top and the bottom of the
cabinet.


Makes perfect sense and more sense than sticking to level by the letter
of the law.
I think I've done similarly in past without thinking about it in such
great depth. I always called it splitting the difference. If it's out
of level by 1/4" I'd come down 1/" on one side and go down 1/8" on the
other so the gap isn't as bad. But in distance, I like your idea
better. You won't notice an entire structure being 1/2" off level over
15', but you'll *definitely* see the crown sloping down the cabinets
headers.

Clarification: when you say "valance" is that what I call a soffit?
The framed up box on the ceiling, covered with drywall, used to fill the
space between the top of your cabinets and the ceiling?


Then I cover the areas to be covered with 1/2" plywood, all cuts
about 3/8" short. Glue the ply with PL400, and screw to any
available studs or other framing members. I only do this to the
uppers, so it doesn't take long.

That's brilliant. Just to clear... you're covering the wall behind
the upper cabs with 1/2" plywood so that it's basically and entire
shadow of the cabinets minus 3/16" around the perimeter.

You got it. And if I find that a valance is used for a chase that
holds electrical and sometimes plumbing, maybe even A/C that the
people don't want to pay to relocate, I might be going back in with
30" uppers. In that case, it is even fast as I cut my plywood into
12" strips that go top and bottom, no full coverage needed. I have
found that the strips don't make me happy on 42" uppers, but are
plenty for 30"s.


So these 12" strips running the length of the wall, at the top and
bottom of the cabinets, are essentially acting as exterior blocking.
That's where you would normally run 2x's on the inside of the wall,
notched into the studs. Do you glue these also?

Just curious why you're happy with this for taller cabs.

So you also use trim screws to join adjacent stiles. I've seem some who
will use screws just behind the face frame through the box into the
adjoining box. I think I like going stile-to-stile (even if it means
some putty in the hole) because it won't warp the cabinet sides.


snipped

Also, are your 2x4 shims 1-1/2" wide or 3-1/2" wide?

1 1/2". I am also known to use the same wedges, maybe longer when
installing base units over a poor floor. I check the fit down the
sides of the carcass before I commit to a permanent install, and do
what I need to do to eliminate any rocking, or fill any voids. I set
up a string line to make sure I am getting them straight and level
(or out of level a bit as above) and shim if needed to lift or
straighten. I glue those shim/wedges down to the concrete with
PL400. I do the same along the fronts under the toe space before I
put the kicks on. You can make a really inexpensive cabinet feel
rock steady if you check out your contact points on the concrete and
fill as needed. If you don't, they will sag or move later and let
the joined stiles create a gap, so I always fill anything that is
over 1/16". If it is only 1/16", maybe a tiny bit larger, I fill the
gap with PL400. When it hits 1/8", it gets a shim and some PL400.


I love the idea of those wider shims.
This floor is already finished hardwood, which covers the entire floor
so I guess any adhesive will do.


Awesome info, thanks a ton for your reply!!

Good luck! Glad to be of some help, Mike. Let me know if I was
unclear anywhere or if there are any other questions.

Robert


One other thing!! Are there any newer techniques for securing
peninsulas to the floor?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/5/2015 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I think I've done similarly in past without thinking about it in such
great depth. I always called it splitting the difference. If it's out
of level by 1/4" I'd come down 1/" on one side and go down 1/8" on the
other so the gap isn't as bad. But in distance, I like your idea
better. You won't notice an entire structure being 1/2" off level over
15', but you'll *definitely* see the crown sloping down the cabinets
headers.

You do have to split the difference in some cases, and there is never
anything perfectly plumb or level, but you do need to shoot for it if at
all possible.

Keep in mind that if your base cabinets are not as perfectly level in
two planes as you can get them, the counter tops that go on top of them
will not be level and the owners will be constantly annoyed by round
things rolling around, or to the floor, not to mention the liquid in a
container will certainly show it.

When it come to butting up against an uneven ceiling with crown that is
over 1/2" off or more, the ceiling needs to be fixed .... IOW, ff it's
1/4" or less, I install the crown accordingly and use a skim coat and/or
carrier board, or both between 1/4" and 1/2".

Many ways to skin a cat, and all situations are unique ...

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On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 2:16:24 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

Makes perfect sense and more sense than sticking to level by the letter
of the law.
I think I've done similarly in past without thinking about it in such
great depth. I always called it splitting the difference.

To me, that's the difference between a pro and a handyman. A handyman will bust his butt trying to hang/set cabinets that are perfectly level and plumb, and if the walls and ceilings aren't, they get a poor install. When I see an install (from "professionals" too, have no doubt) that have gaps, non symmetric details, poor margin controls, etc. it bothers me a lot for them to explain to me that "the walls were out of plumb" so their poor work couldn't be helped. All they know is the level/plumb.

You won't notice an entire structure being 1/2" off level over
15', but you'll *definitely* see the crown sloping down the cabinets
headers.

In most of these old houses or buildings is is all about splitting the difference. If I hung some really nice cabinets and my clients saw ugly trim details and gaps, they absolutely would not care about me proving to them that MY installation was plumb and level.

Clarification: when you say "valance" is that what I call a soffit?
The framed up box on the ceiling, covered with drywall, used to fill the
space between the top of your cabinets and the ceiling?

Yes. Soffits are usually outside. In most cases, these are actually blocked out areas used as a chase to hold pipes, wires, maybe down lights, etc. In the old days, these were the square framed up box that grandma hung her plates on above the cabinets.

So these 12" strips running the length of the wall, at the top and
bottom of the cabinets, are essentially acting as exterior blocking.
That's where you would normally run 2x's on the inside of the wall,
notched into the studs. Do you glue these also?

We misfired. Probably my poor writing skills.

Let's call the bottom blocks or solid wood boards what they are in framing vernacular, ledgers. These ledgers are not permanent, but they hold the cabinets in place until they are lined straight, then attached one another and secured to the wall. They are removed after that. There are no top blocks/ledgers, even temporary.

Sometimes I hang cabs by myself, sometimes with someone else helping. Regardless, I do it the same way. Mounting a 12" 2X4 block where the center of a cabinet will fall allows me to pick the cabinet up, set it on the block, climb the ladder and shoot a screw in the top to hold the cabinet in place.. Two screws (not fully driven up) holds the cabinet in place until I can get all of them up on the wall. So the cabinet is being held by a couple of screws at the top, and sitting on a temp block that was screwed to a stud..

I get the cabinets straight, but not perfect by applying the long wedges. I screw the stiles together, one screw under the top hinge, one screw above the bottom hinge. Colored caps are used to cover the screw heads later at the end of the install.

Once I have the faces secured, I use the wedges as needed to get the cabinets to string line straight, then secure them to the wall by driving all screws up, shooting a brad in the wedges, then cutting them off. I remove the temp ledger blocks, the fill them with a wedge if needed, brad the wedges, then cut them off.

So when finished, the cabinets are screwed to the wall, to the backing whatever that might be, whether is it a plywood backing, solid 2x blocking under sheet rock (preferred).

I took a few minutes at lunch today to scribble off a couple of drawings to clarify:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psob1i2uvv.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psue6ndmcg.jpg

They are down and dirty, but hopefully good enough to get the point across.


Just curious why you're happy with this for taller cabs.

A longer wedge provides greater bearing surface, and then reduces movement.


So you also use trim screws to join adjacent stiles. I've seem some who
will use screws just behind the face frame through the box into the
adjoining box. I think I like going stile-to-stile (even if it means
some putty in the hole) because it won't warp the cabinet sides.

I put a screw under the tops hinge and over the bottom hinge to pull the stiles tight. Sometimes I cap the screws with plastic caps, sometimes I paint the heads, and sometimes I color them with marker. I use large (Deckmate) 3" screws. I countersink them carefully, and since they are right next to the hinges, they look like they are part of the mechanical system. Unless you have heavy carcass cabs, screwing through the sides is of little value..

That being said, I also use longer screws if I need to, and have been known more than once to screw a large upper to a valance or ceiling through the stiles to keep them from sagging. Nothing is safe from me when I have my drill, countersinks, the correct bit and a pile of screws.

snipped

I love the idea of those wider shims.
This floor is already finished hardwood, which covers the entire floor
so I guess any adhesive will do.

Stick with PL400. It is a proven winner, and it has enough solvents in it to bite into finished materials (like your floor) and will work when the surfaces aren't perfectly clean. When I do a kitchen, I always think I should have bought stock in that company!


One other thing!! Are there any newer techniques for securing
peninsulas to the floor?

Not that I know of. You might see if you can get Karl to chime in on this one as he has done a couple or three projects lately IIRC, that have peninsulas. I do them the way I always have, and that is to trace the base of the unit out on the floor when it is in position. I mark back the thickness of the kicks and strike a line. I use 1/4"X3" or 1/4"X 3 1/2" metal tap ins to secure cleats to the concrete floor. Yes, I put PL400 underneath the cleats as it waterproofs my fasteners. Then put the cabinet in place and screw it through the kicks into the cleats. If the kicks aren't sturdy enough, I add 2X4 behind them and adjust the position of my cleats accordingly, and screw the whole shebang together.

Robert

On 12/8/2015 2:55 AM, wrote:
Clarification: when you say "valance" is that what I call a soffit?
The framed up box on the ceiling, covered with drywall, used to fill the
space between the top of your cabinets and the ceiling?

Yes. Soffits are usually outside. In most cases, these are actually blocked out areas used as a chase to hold pipes, wires, maybe down lights, etc. In the old days, these were the square framed up box that grandma hung her plates on above the cabinets.


AKA, "furrdown" around these parts.

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On 12/5/2015 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Clarification: when you say "valance" is that what I call a soffit?
The framed up box on the ceiling, covered with drywall, used to fill the
space between the top of your cabinets and the ceiling?

In cabinetmaking parlance, particularly in kitchens, a "valance" is
usually wooden, but sometimes curtain material, located at the top of a
window and spans the distance between the cabinets on either side of the
window, or the window itself when cabinets aren't involved.

A wood valance in a kitchen most often contains, or hides, a light that
shines down on the sink area.

Example of one type of "valance":

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...3 77282607874

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On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 9:31:08 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

AKA, "furrdown" around these parts.

You know, I hadn't thought about the difference. When I was framing houses we called anything that we built on site that closed the gap between the ceiling and a feature a "furrdown".

So anything over built in cabinets or coves, the area over bath tubs that would be made into storage cabinets, etc. was a furrdown.

Later when I was more involved in the architectural side, I was building plywood box "valances" for padded window treatments, lighting, etc., and anything else that hung from a wall or ceiling.

Interesting. Just never thought about it.

Robert

On 12/08/2015 12:56 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 9:31:08 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

AKA, "furrdown" around these parts.

You know, I hadn't thought about the difference. When I was framing
houses we called anything that we built on site that closed the gap
between the ceiling and a feature a "furrdown".

So anything over built in cabinets or coves, the area over bath tubs
that would be made into storage cabinets, etc. was a furrdown.

Later when I was more involved in the architectural side, I was
building plywood box "valances" for padded window treatments, lighting,
etc., and anything else that hung from a wall or ceiling.

Interesting. Just never thought about it.


Indeed. Never heard of "furrdown" down (or up) h'year (not in Piedmont
VA or E TN, either, for that matter)....

--

On 12/8/2015 12:56 PM, wrote:
You know, I hadn't thought about the difference. When I was framing houses we called anything that we built on site that closed the gap between the ceiling and a feature a "furrdown".

Interesting. Just never thought about it.

Heard the term "furrdown" all my life, but it can't be just a regional
thing because I get constant requests from purchasers (most from out of
state these last few years) of the thirty to fifty year old homes in
Texas, where kitchen "furrdowns" were common, on whether they can:

"... take the furrdowns out?"

Almost always one of the main topics on the initial meeting to discuss
what they want to do. Most of the time the answer is yes, although we do
see AC ducts run in furrdowns in some of the newer homes, post window AC
unit age.

I've been asked almost as much why the older Texas houses, especially
tract homes built in the 70's on up, seem to have them in the kitchens.

My standard response is:

Filling that last 12", between the 8' ceiling and the top of a 30" tall
wall cabinet, with sheetrock and tubafours is a whole lot cheaper than a
foot more of cabinet (and that may be difficult to reach in the first
place).

The old "don't put money where you can't see it/use it"?? ...

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On 12/8/2015 2:31 PM, dpb wrote:
Indeed. Never heard of "furrdown" down (or up) h'year (not in Piedmont
VA or E TN, either, for that matter)....

Depends upon what you're doing with her ...

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On 12/8/15 2:55 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 2:16:24 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

Makes perfect sense and more sense than sticking to level by the letter
of the law.
I think I've done similarly in past without thinking about it in such
great depth. I always called it splitting the difference.

To me, that's the difference between a pro and a handyman. A handyman will bust his butt trying to hang/set cabinets that are perfectly level and plumb, and if the walls and ceilings aren't, they get a poor install. When I see an install (from "professionals" too, have no doubt) that have gaps, non symmetric details, poor margin controls, etc. it bothers me a lot for them to explain to me that "the walls were out of plumb" so their poor work couldn't be helped. All they know is the level/plumb.

You won't notice an entire structure being 1/2" off level over
15', but you'll *definitely* see the crown sloping down the cabinets
headers.

In most of these old houses or buildings is is all about splitting the difference. If I hung some really nice cabinets and my clients saw ugly trim details and gaps, they absolutely would not care about me proving to them that MY installation was plumb and level.

Clarification: when you say "valance" is that what I call a soffit?
The framed up box on the ceiling, covered with drywall, used to fill the
space between the top of your cabinets and the ceiling?

Yes. Soffits are usually outside. In most cases, these are actually blocked out areas used as a chase to hold pipes, wires, maybe down lights, etc. In the old days, these were the square framed up box that grandma hung her plates on above the cabinets.

So these 12" strips running the length of the wall, at the top and
bottom of the cabinets, are essentially acting as exterior blocking.
That's where you would normally run 2x's on the inside of the wall,
notched into the studs. Do you glue these also?

We misfired. Probably my poor writing skills.

Let's call the bottom blocks or solid wood boards what they are in framing vernacular, ledgers. These ledgers are not permanent, but they hold the cabinets in place until they are lined straight, then attached one another and secured to the wall. They are removed after that. There are no top blocks/ledgers, even temporary.

Sometimes I hang cabs by myself, sometimes with someone else helping. Regardless, I do it the same way. Mounting a 12" 2X4 block where the center of a cabinet will fall allows me to pick the cabinet up, set it on the block, climb the ladder and shoot a screw in the top to hold the cabinet in place. Two screws (not fully driven up) holds the cabinet in place until I can get all of them up on the wall. So the cabinet is being held by a couple of screws at the top, and sitting on a temp block that was screwed to a stud.

I get the cabinets straight, but not perfect by applying the long wedges. I screw the stiles together, one screw under the top hinge, one screw above the bottom hinge. Colored caps are used to cover the screw heads later at the end of the install.

Once I have the faces secured, I use the wedges as needed to get the cabinets to string line straight, then secure them to the wall by driving all screws up, shooting a brad in the wedges, then cutting them off. I remove the temp ledger blocks, the fill them with a wedge if needed, brad the wedges, then cut them off.

So when finished, the cabinets are screwed to the wall, to the backing whatever that might be, whether is it a plywood backing, solid 2x blocking under sheet rock (preferred).

I took a few minutes at lunch today to scribble off a couple of drawings to clarify:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psob1i2uvv.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psue6ndmcg.jpg

They are down and dirty, but hopefully good enough to get the point across.


Just curious why you're happy with this for taller cabs.

A longer wedge provides greater bearing surface, and then reduces movement.


So you also use trim screws to join adjacent stiles. I've seem some who
will use screws just behind the face frame through the box into the
adjoining box. I think I like going stile-to-stile (even if it means
some putty in the hole) because it won't warp the cabinet sides.

I put a screw under the tops hinge and over the bottom hinge to pull the stiles tight. Sometimes I cap the screws with plastic caps, sometimes I paint the heads, and sometimes I color them with marker. I use large (Deckmate) 3" screws. I countersink them carefully, and since they are right next to the hinges, they look like they are part of the mechanical system. Unless you have heavy carcass cabs, screwing through the sides is of little value.

That being said, I also use longer screws if I need to, and have been known more than once to screw a large upper to a valance or ceiling through the stiles to keep them from sagging. Nothing is safe from me when I have my drill, countersinks, the correct bit and a pile of screws.

snipped

I love the idea of those wider shims.
This floor is already finished hardwood, which covers the entire floor
so I guess any adhesive will do.

Stick with PL400. It is a proven winner, and it has enough solvents in it to bite into finished materials (like your floor) and will work when the surfaces aren't perfectly clean. When I do a kitchen, I always think I should have bought stock in that company!


One other thing!! Are there any newer techniques for securing
peninsulas to the floor?

Not that I know of. You might see if you can get Karl to chime in on this one as he has done a couple or three projects lately IIRC, that have peninsulas. I do them the way I always have, and that is to trace the base of the unit out on the floor when it is in position. I mark back the thickness of the kicks and strike a line. I use 1/4"X3" or 1/4"X 3 1/2" metal tap ins to secure cleats to the concrete floor. Yes, I put PL400 underneath the cleats as it waterproofs my fasteners. Then put the cabinet in place and screw it through the kicks into the cleats. If the kicks aren't sturdy enough, I add 2X4 behind them and adjust the position of my cleats accordingly, and screw the whole shebang together.

Robert


The illustrations are awesome! Thanks a ton for taking the time to
draw them up and share.
Turns out the client could not wait for me to get back from out of town
to do the job. But I am taking lots of notes and look forward to my
next cabinet installation.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/8/2015 2:55 AM, wrote:


http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psob1i2uvv.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psue6ndmcg.jpg

They are down and dirty, but hopefully good enough to get the point across.


Still using Pencil-Up huh? ;~)

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 5:59:58 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Still using Pencil-Up huh? ;~)

Shows what you know! That's actually "Sharpie Up" which is light years away from Pencil Up. I quit using Pencil Up almost three weeks ago.

Try to keep up, Leon. =8^)

*snicker*

I KNEW you would have to say something!

Robert

wrote:
On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 5:59:58 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Still using Pencil-Up huh? ;~)

Shows what you know! That's actually "Sharpie Up" which is light years
away from Pencil Up. I quit using Pencil Up almost three weeks ago.

Ooohhhhhh, Sharpie-up. Karl! Have we used Sharpie -up? LOL

Does Eraser Up still work with Sharpie Up.




Try to keep up, Leon. =8^)

*snicker*

I KNEW you would have to say something!

Robert

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 08:39:26 -0600, Leon wrote:

wrote:
On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 5:59:58 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Still using Pencil-Up huh? ;~)

Shows what you know! That's actually "Sharpie Up" which is light years
away from Pencil Up. I quit using Pencil Up almost three weeks ago.

Ooohhhhhh, Sharpie-up. Karl! Have we used Sharpie -up? LOL

Does Eraser Up still work with Sharpie Up.

Are you accusing him of making mistakes?

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 8:39:28 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Shows what you know! That's actually "Sharpie Up" which is light years
away from Pencil Up. I quit using Pencil Up almost three weeks ago.

Ooohhhhhh, Sharpie-up. Karl! Have we used Sharpie -up? LOL

Does Eraser Up still work with Sharpie Up.

Nope. Sharpie Up is a professional tool for professional use only. You get one chance to do it right, and your only option is to use "Tear It Up" to fix it if you make a mistake.

Bet you can figure out how I know that one...

Robert

On 12/12/2015 11:41 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 8:39:28 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Shows what you know! That's actually "Sharpie Up" which is light years
away from Pencil Up. I quit using Pencil Up almost three weeks ago.

Ooohhhhhh, Sharpie-up. Karl! Have we used Sharpie -up? LOL

Does Eraser Up still work with Sharpie Up.

Nope. Sharpie Up is a professional tool for professional use only. You get one chance to do it right, and your only option is to use "Tear It Up" to fix it if you make a mistake.

Bet you can figure out how I know that one...

Robert



Too rich for my blood. ;~) And you gotta know what you are doing.

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 4:25:59 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
..
Too rich for my blood. ;~) And you gotta know what you are doing.

Seriously, you have no idea how many "on site" sketches I have made over the last 35 years. I carry a notebook with me at all times so I can detail out all the details on my jobs as needed.

Flashing details on roofs, framing details on remodels, installation details for the million little parts and pieces that make up a job, and even sketches I have my clients sign that detail out measurements and position details.

I usually have a Sharpie, a framing pencil and a couple of pens with me. My guys make fun of me for "drawing them pictures" but the always fold them up and put them in their pocket. It certainly isn't unusual to go to one of my remodels and see a piece of quadrille paper tacked/taped to the wall that has something completely detailed out down to the measurements. I also sketch on walls, pieces of plywood, etc.

It sure does cut down on misunderstandings.

Robert

On 12/13/2015 5:24 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 4:25:59 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
.
Too rich for my blood. ;~) And you gotta know what you are doing.

Seriously, you have no idea how many "on site" sketches I have made over the last 35 years. I carry a notebook with me at all times so I can detail out all the details on my jobs as needed.

Flashing details on roofs, framing details on remodels, installation details for the million little parts and pieces that make up a job, and even sketches I have my clients sign that detail out measurements and position details.

I usually have a Sharpie, a framing pencil and a couple of pens with me. My guys make fun of me for "drawing them pictures" but the always fold them up and put them in their pocket. It certainly isn't unusual to go to one of my remodels and see a piece of quadrille paper tacked/taped to the wall that has something completely detailed out down to the measurements. I also sketch on walls, pieces of plywood, etc.

It sure does cut down on misunderstandings.

Robert



No doubt! I recall using sketches, on notebook paper. ;~)