The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
I'm building.

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).

If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.

I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't
have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would
be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my
previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.

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On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.

Much, much more efficient and time saving:

http://www.rockler.com/non-slip-rout...DR-w4J_bTw_wcB


Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

Factors are any milling/sanding marks, and also the color of the stain.
IME, and in most common woods, darker colored stains often highlight
milling/sanding marks less than lighter colors.


If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.

Can see no reason not. Be doing a lot of sanding this past week in
preparation for staining a much larger project and used three sanders,
with 100, 120, 150g respectively.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message

The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
I'm building.

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
the process by using both.

Sure. One grit on one, the other grit on the other.

Keep in mind that the finer grit is just to remove scratch marks made by the
coarser; that means that the coarser grit sanding should be thorough to
remove any mill marks, etc. IME, the proper sanding time is about twice as
long as what I think it should be

You might want to invest in a 1/4 sheet orbital sander; they are inexpensive
and I still prefer then to the ROS. And if you ever come across a now
defunct Porter-Cable 505 half sheet sander I would strongly suggest that you
buy it. They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight
and the thick felt pad.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:

They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight
and the thick felt pad.

That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my
Dad's garage.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57627751790027

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57628183501013

That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense
felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman.
The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with
the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted
to my hand is greatly less.

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On 6/22/2014 10:09 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.

Much, much more efficient and time saving:

http://www.rockler.com/non-slip-rout...DR-w4J_bTw_wcB

That looks exactly like something I've seen in my house somewhere; some
kind of non-skid stuff my wife bought in a housewares store. I'll bet
it's the same material. I'll have to ask her where it is.

But does that work decently for very small pieces?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14211762232/

I've got a lot of them.


Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

Factors are any milling/sanding marks, and also the color of the stain.
IME, and in most common woods, darker colored stains often highlight
milling/sanding marks less than lighter colors.


If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.

Can see no reason not. Be doing a lot of sanding this past week in
preparation for staining a much larger project and used three sanders,
with 100, 120, 150g respectively.




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On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message

On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:

They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the
weight and the thick felt pad.

That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my
Dad's garage.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57627751790027

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57628183501013

That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense
felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman.
The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with
the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted
to my hand is greatly less.

There have been so many tool company buyouts/mergers that it is hard to know
who made what but yours looks basically the same as the one I mentioned. If
it works well, treat it well, it is a definite keeper.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
I'm building.

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a
9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the
edges to sand.

Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the
stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar
clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together.

Or lay them all down on double stick tape

Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-2...-sander/628900

Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached.



I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).

If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.

I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't
have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would
be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my
previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.

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On 6/22/2014 4:59 PM, dadiOH wrote: "Greg Guarino"
wrote in message

On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:

They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the
weight and the thick felt pad.

That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my
Dad's garage.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57627751790027


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57628183501013

That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense
felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman.
The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with
the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted
to my hand is greatly less.

There have been so many tool company buyouts/mergers that it is hard
to know
who made what but yours looks basically the same as the one I
mentioned. If
it works well, treat it well, it is a definite keeper.



There's one on Ebay for $40, but it's not as shiny.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Port...em1c41 0ae898

I visit my parents most evenings these days. I had another browse in the
garage this evening. I found another sander, a Black and Decker 7320 1/3
sheet. It's probably of a similar vintage, all metal, chrome finish. No
corrosion at all. I suppose the sealed ammo box it's been in for the
past several decades might have helped.

I turned it on briefly and tried sanding a piece of scrap. It doesn't
feel quite as solid and smooth as the Rockwell, but it wasn't too bad.
Noisier too. It could still be of some use. The pad is some sort of foam
rubber rather than felt and is a little beaten around the edges. Still
seems flat over the active area though.

Interestingly, there is a lever that selects between "orbital" and
"straight-line" action. The manual (which can be found he

http://servicenet.blackanddecker.com...s/Detail/7420#

.... in all it's typewritten glory)

recommends orbital for faster material removal and straight-line for a
fine finish.

I couldn't move the lever at first (it's almost inaccessible between the
plate and the main housing), but knowing that my Dad wouldn't have
thrown out any accessories, I had a look in the ammo box. Lo and behold;
a little plastic "handle" that slips over the lever.

I tried both settings. There is definitely a difference; the "orbital"
setting is significantly more "orbital" than the straight-line setting.
But judging by eye, there seems to still be a minor amount of "orbit" in
the straight-line setting as well. I'll give it a more thorough test at
some point.

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On 6/22/2014 7:55 PM, Leon wrote: On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
I'm building.

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a
9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the
edges to sand.

I thought of that, *after* I cut up all of the pieces, naturally . I'm
afraid that ripping small pieces like that is difficult with my tool
(and personal) limitations; I started with stock of the proper finished
cross-section (1x3 and 1x2). Still, I think I could have sanded the
uncut stock.

Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the
stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar
clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together.

I set up something similar without clamps, a four-sided "corral" made of
thinner stock (1/2" ply) screwed into the work surface. The pieces fit
in it snugly. It may work out.

Or lay them all down on double stick tape

Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-2...-sander/628900

Extravagant for a guy who doesn't even have a table saw.

Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached.

I just unearthed a third sander. I may indeed use three sanders and
avoid changing paper entirely, but we'll see how well the "new" (circa
1970 I'm guessing) one works.





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"Greg Guarino" wrote in message


I visit my parents most evenings these days. I had another browse in the
garage this evening. I found another sander, a Black and Decker 7320 1/3
sheet. It's probably of a similar vintage, all metal, chrome finish. No
corrosion at all. I suppose the sealed ammo box it's been in for the
past several decades might have helped.

I turned it on briefly and tried sanding a piece of scrap. It doesn't
feel quite as solid and smooth as the Rockwell, but it wasn't too bad.
Noisier too. It could still be of some use. The pad is some sort of foam
rubber rather than felt and is a little beaten around the edges. Still
seems flat over the active area though.

Interestingly, there is a lever that selects between "orbital" and
"straight-line" action.

I have one of those too, circa 1965-70. Mine is Craftsman but may well be a
branded B&D. Works OK but I rarely use it, not nearly as good as the Porter
Cable 1/2 sheet sander. I also have a Hitachi 1/2 sheet, rarely use it
either for the same reason; also, not as heavy, hard rubber platen...works
best if stuff is already dead flat.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:44:23 AM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive

woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand

the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units

I'm building.



I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x

1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for

sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.

Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at

least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue

S4S red oak.



I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)

third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline

the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another

hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or

alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).



If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or

possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could

save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.



I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't

have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would

be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my

previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.



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Wll, around my shop you will find those hard rubber sanding blocks with labels painted on them of 100, 150, 220. I have at least two complete sets. Keeping fresh paper on these you can sand just as fast, stay with the grain swap grits in a second by dropping one block and grabbing the next.

For all projects, I power sand all the lumber to 150 after thicknessing is done and before cutting parts. I do the same for ply. I always start with 100.

In article , Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

And regardless, very light pressure downwards, letting the paper cut by
itself.

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes

On 6/22/2014 12:47 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit
action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders
are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question.

Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably
after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once)
covered in nasty cross grain scratches?

The crux of my question was "can I profitably use orbital (not random)
sanders for finer grits?" My purpose is to avoid changing grits on my
(one) ROS repeatedly (or setting up each set of parts repeatedly) as I
sand the 56 (mostly very small) pieces that make up the frames of my
current project.

A couple of people have said yes, which makes sense to me as I never had
a ROS before recently and I don't remember poor results with the
Orbitals I used before. Of course, most of that work was with fine grits
on ply and some S4S trim. Or maybe I never looked closely enough?

I'm inclined to set up the three sanders I have with 120, 150 and
(perhaps) 180 for all of the Red Oak I need to sand. I'd use the ROS for
the coarsest grit, mostly to remove the planer marks from the
store-bought S4S lumber.

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On 6/26/2014 1:26 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/22/2014 12:47 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit
action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders
are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question.

OK, some of the OLD orbital disk sanders were essentially a disk
spinning on the end of a drill, like a grinder. You do not want that.

For the most part finish sanders are typically only orbital, not random
orbit, however their pattern is so small it does not matter. ROS's
sanders are a nice alternative to using a belt sander when you want
something that can be more aggressive than a finish sander but still
almost have the same finesse as a finish sander.





Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably
after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once)
covered in nasty cross grain scratches?

The crux of my question was "can I profitably use orbital (not random)
sanders for finer grits?" My purpose is to avoid changing grits on my
(one) ROS repeatedly (or setting up each set of parts repeatedly) as I
sand the 56 (mostly very small) pieces that make up the frames of my
current project.

A couple of people have said yes, which makes sense to me as I never had
a ROS before recently and I don't remember poor results with the
Orbitals I used before. Of course, most of that work was with fine grits
on ply and some S4S trim. Or maybe I never looked closely enough?

I'm inclined to set up the three sanders I have with 120, 150 and
(perhaps) 180 for all of the Red Oak I need to sand. I'd use the ROS for
the coarsest grit, mostly to remove the planer marks from the
store-bought S4S lumber.

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On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:26:12 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit
action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders
are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question.

Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably
after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once)
covered in nasty cross grain scratches?

IIRC, the one I had (from Sears) did have the nasties. I used the
orbital mode for the coarsest grits and the straight line (with the
grain) for the finer ones.

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches :-)

On 6/22/14 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
I'm building.

I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
S4S red oak.

Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a
9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the
edges to sand.

Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the
stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar
clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together.

Amen to this!
I do this often for end grain on shelves and such. It also has the
benefit of avoiding rounding over the edges.

-BR


Or lay them all down on double stick tape

Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-2...-sander/628900

Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached.



I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).

If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.

I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't
have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would
be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my
previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.

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On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any
particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being a
novice, I have to ask.

While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
random-orbit sander, by the way)

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On 7/21/2014 8:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
is more important. The scratches from both sanders are difficult to see
unless you work the sanders across the grain. I use a ROS on joints and
for my first 120 or 150 grit pass. Once every thing is smooth I move to
the next grit and typically to my finish sander and only moving the
sander in the direction of the grain.





I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any
particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being a
novice, I have to ask.

See above.



While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
random-orbit sander, by the way)

Ease any edges that might become vulnerable to hits thus causing the
edge to break off. Also ease all edges that your body parts might come
in contact with. Ease only edges that are on the outside after
assembly. Don't ease the edge that will be a part of the joint surface.
Some styles of furniture have chamfered edges on all edges, meaning
all edges are given that profile before assembly. Don't do this when
simply easing the edges.




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"Greg Guarino" wrote in message


While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
random-orbit sander, by the way)

I ease edges after assembly; however, unlike Leon, I do the inside edges
as well simply because I like the look. One needs to exercise a bit of
caution where two pieces meet; if oneis really anal, one can make that
union look like it had been coped.

There are times when an eased inside edge is useful (as well as esthetic),
either between two pieces in the same component or two different
components. For example, the inside edge of a breadboard end is often
eased as are the butting face frame edges in a row of cabinets. It is
called a "quirk" and is useful because - expecially in the case of
cabinets - it is close to impossible to get the abutting face frame edges
perfectly aligned.


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Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking
here.


I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any
particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being
a novice, I have to ask.

Oh... no you don't. You've proven yourself pretty adept at putting your
hand to new ideas. Just put your hand to this. Give it a try...


--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:


Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
is more important.

I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do
with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at
which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do
its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's
orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree
on that point.



--

-Mike-

On 7/21/2014 10:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking
here.

Family obligations have whittled (sanded? planed? sawn?) down my "hobby"
time to nearly nil lately. And anyway, without ignorant questions as a
seed, how would any woodworking discussions get stated around here?


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On 7/21/2014 9:54 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
is more important.

I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do
with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at
which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do
its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's
orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree
on that point.





Well Mike, I am not just making this stuff up. The proof is in the
pudding, Try moving you finish sander and or ROS in a direction other
than with the grain and you will end up with scratches that go across
the grain. Regardless of which direction the small scratch pattern the
ROS or finish sanders make when you drag across the grain the scratch
patterns are no longer hidden by the grain. Been there Done that.

FWIW the ideal sander speed is 1" per second.

On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking
here.


Some times Mike you can be a real putz.

On 7/21/2014 8:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

What Leon, said.


While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
random-orbit sander, by the way)

Again, what Leon said, except add to that, "breaking"/easing the edges
has a valid purpose in finishing, other than mentioned by posters thus
far, such as for feel, appearance, and protection of edges from breaks
and splintering on impact.

Sprayed and/or painted top coat finishes have a tendency to build up on
sharp edges, which can often result in areas that may flake and/or show
an unevenness, sometimes even in shade/color.

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On 7/21/2014 9:28 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message


While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
random-orbit sander, by the way)

I ease edges after assembly; however, unlike Leon, I do the inside edges
as well simply because I like the look. One needs to exercise a bit of
caution where two pieces meet; if oneis really anal, one can make that
union look like it had been coped.

Actually I do ease inside edges, If I can touch the edge I ease it no
matter where it is. I simply don't ease edges before assembly as some
of those edges will no longer be exposed. I don't ease the edge of the
end of a rail where it joins a stile.







There are times when an eased inside edge is useful (as well as
esthetic), either between two pieces in the same component or two
different components. For example, the inside edge of a breadboard end
is often eased as are the butting face frame edges in a row of
cabinets. It is called a "quirk" and is useful because - expecially in
the case of cabinets - it is close to impossible to get the abutting
face frame edges perfectly aligned.



This is as I mentioned where all edges including those in the joint have
a chamfer or other profile on all edges of the rails and stiles.

On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

Leon wrote:


Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
is more important.

I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish
sander - ok - might agree on that point.

Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in.

I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches
using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander.

I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I
can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't.

Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
randomness?

Leon wrote:
On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS
sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face
frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is
this only for finer grits?

Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than
asking here.


Some times Mike you can be a real putz.

Sometimes?

--

-Mike-

On 7/21/2014 11:13 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
orbital, not directional.

OK, I'm taking sides here.

My experience in that regard more closely matches Leon's.

IME, ROS sanding scratches do show up on crossgrain (proportionate to
the coarseness of the grit) much more than on long grain when using a
ROS across a crossgrain joint, like a rail and stile, even with a top
quality random orbit sander.

Unfinished, you might never see them, but they have a tendency to become
much more evident under a stain and topcoat.

If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
has an orbital sander, not a*random* orbital sander.

Leon uses a 5" Festool ROS, IIRC ... and one look, up close and
personal, at anything he builds and finishes will tell you, without
equivocation, that he indeed he is a master at using it.

Again IME, and because there are a myriad of reasons where you do not
want to sand past a certain grit, heeding Leon's advice regarding
following grain direction when using a ROS, may well save a project you
just thought that, by using a ROS without regard to grain, there would
be no problems with sanding marks showing up after a stain and topcoat
was applied.

YMMV ...

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On 7/21/2014 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Some times Mike you can be a real putz.

Sometimes?

At least he didn't capitalize it like I would have. g,d&r

BTW, enjoyed our phone conversation this morning. Now, if we could only
get the rest of this country to heed our advice.


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On 7/21/2014 12:37 PM, Swingman wrote:

IME, ROS sanding scratches do show up on crossgrain (proportionate to
the coarseness of the grit) much more than on long grain when using a
ROS across a crossgrain joint, like a rail and stile, even with a top
quality random orbit sander.

Unfinished, you might never see them, but they have a tendency to become
much more evident under a stain and topcoat.

If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
has an orbital sander, not a*random* orbital sander.

Leon uses a 5" Festool ROS, IIRC ... and one look, up close and
personal, at anything he builds and finishes will tell you, without
equivocation, that he indeed he is a master at using it.

Again IME, and because there are a myriad of reasons where you do not
want to sand past a certain grit, heeding Leon's advice regarding
following grain direction when using a ROS, may well save a project you
just thought that, by using a ROS without regard to grain, there would
be no problems with sanding marks showing up after a stain and topcoat
was applied.

As often happens, I don't see a clear answer. Still, I usually learn
something. Here's why I asked:

For those of you who have forgotten, or figure I MUST have moved on to
a new project by now, I'm building two of these:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

(plus shelves and a top, of course)

I've made essentially no progress at all since the dry fit pictured in
the photo. (family obligations) As you can see, the project is composed
practically entirely of face-frame-like components. I think I did a fair
job of lining up the dowel holes that will hold it all together, but
especially after sanding all of the pieces individually, I'm sure the
joints on the ladder sides won't be exactly flat.

I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of
the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the
rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading
me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any
imperfections.

I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's
suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that
this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints
flat?

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"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message

On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

Leon wrote:


Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish
sander,
is more important.

I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish
sander - ok - might agree on that point.

Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in.

I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches
using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or
he
has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander.

I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I
can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't.

Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
randomness?

It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has
to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion generated by
the sander.

--

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____________________________

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"Greg Guarino" wrote in message


I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of
the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the
rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading
me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any
imperfections.

I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's
suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that
this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints
flat?

I always do finish sanding afrer assembly. My only method is to use a
1/2 sheet - sometimes - 1/4 sheet depending upon area - which gets joints
nice and even. I don't use my ROS for two reasons...1. I don't like them
and, 2. the 1/2 sheet does a better job IME.

In the case of your "ladders". I might well have cut a "small V" quirk; it
could save a lot of work and could look good.

--

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____________________________

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dadiOH wrote:


It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has
to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion
generated by the sander.

I happen to agree with that statement and that's what I had said in my
reply. But... I do defer to those who do finer work than I do (like Leon
and Karl), and I do accept their opinions since they go way beyond the level
of acceptance that I do.

--

-Mike-

"Larry Blanchard" wrote

Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
randomness?

Most definitely. You would notice it, because the normally tame sander
turns into a grinding disk instead of a ROS.

There is a ball bearing that can tie up due to the fine dust, but a high
quality sander has a good enough seal that it is unlikely to seize. That
being said, I have seen it happen.
--
Jim in NC


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On 7/21/2014 12:52 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of
the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the
rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading
me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any
imperfections.

Having that deliberate line is often done to hide joinery imperfections;
it can also be a deliberate design feature; and it can certainly serve
both purposes at the same time.

The decision is entirely up to you, so keep'em guessing.


I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's
suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that
this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints
flat?

I personally have rarely used that particular method/device to hide
inaccurate joinery in face frames ... can't remember the last time.

The issue where it would be necessary is mostly one of project parts not
being cut or milled perfectly square/at right angles.

By insuring your stock is prepared with square edges during milling,
ripping, and crosscutting, and by batch cutting ALL parts, you can
pretty well discount that being a problem.

That notwithstanding, that does not preclude the occasional need to sand
some joints to insure their adjoining exposed faces are level with each
other ... a not uncommon occurrence when gluing up parts using any
joinery; often a byproduct of clamping issues, like slight slipping
under pressure.

Depending upon the severity, most of these can be taken care with a
finish sander, or the "aggressive" setting on a ROS if need be, and you
have one that will do that.

However, when installing a 15' run of face frame, base or wall cabinets
to each other, a ROS (preferably one with an "aggressive" setting, like
the Festool 5 and 6" Rotex sanders) is often essential in getting an
evenly matching surface between adjacent cabinets so the doors and
drawer fronts are in the same plane to those in adjacent cabinets.

Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.

IOW, it's not like its an uncommon issue.

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On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:

Depending upon the severity, most of these can be taken care with a
finish sander, or the "aggressive" setting on a ROS if need be, and you
have one that will do that.

I have finish sanders and a single-setting ROS (DeWalt). But what I'm
asking is, do I sand right over the joint? Grits?


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On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:

Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.

I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain
sanding doesn't produce bad effects.


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On 7/21/2014 3:03 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:

Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.

I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain
sanding doesn't produce bad effects.

Not the final sanding...


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