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Use for a finish sander?
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units I'm building. I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times). If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over. I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my previous projects were composed mostly of plywood. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Much, much more efficient and time saving: http://www.rockler.com/non-slip-rout...DR-w4J_bTw_wcB Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times). Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after each grit. Factors are any milling/sanding marks, and also the color of the stain. IME, and in most common woods, darker colored stains often highlight milling/sanding marks less than lighter colors. If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over. Can see no reason not. Be doing a lot of sanding this past week in preparation for staining a much larger project and used three sanders, with 100, 120, 150g respectively. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Use for a finish sander?
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units I'm building. I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. Sure. One grit on one, the other grit on the other. Keep in mind that the finer grit is just to remove scratch marks made by the coarser; that means that the coarser grit sanding should be thorough to remove any mill marks, etc. IME, the proper sanding time is about twice as long as what I think it should be :) You might want to invest in a 1/4 sheet orbital sander; they are inexpensive and I still prefer then to the ROS. And if you ever come across a now defunct Porter-Cable 505 half sheet sander I would strongly suggest that you buy it. They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight and the thick felt pad. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:
They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight and the thick felt pad. That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my Dad's garage. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57627751790027 https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57628183501013 That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman. The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted to my hand is greatly less. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 10:09 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Much, much more efficient and time saving: http://www.rockler.com/non-slip-rout...DR-w4J_bTw_wcB That looks exactly like something I've seen in my house somewhere; some kind of non-skid stuff my wife bought in a housewares store. I'll bet it's the same material. I'll have to ask her where it is. But does that work decently for very small pieces? https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14211762232/ I've got a lot of them. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times). Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after each grit. This one (an old Rockwell) orbits. Factors are any milling/sanding marks, and also the color of the stain. IME, and in most common woods, darker colored stains often highlight milling/sanding marks less than lighter colors. If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over. Can see no reason not. Be doing a lot of sanding this past week in preparation for staining a much larger project and used three sanders, with 100, 120, 150g respectively. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:
Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after each grit. This one (an old Rockwell) orbits. Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches. |
Use for a finish sander?
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote: They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight and the thick felt pad. That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my Dad's garage. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57627751790027 https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57628183501013 That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman. The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted to my hand is greatly less. There have been so many tool company buyouts/mergers that it is hard to know who made what but yours looks basically the same as the one I mentioned. If it works well, treat it well, it is a definite keeper. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units I'm building. I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a 9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the edges to sand. Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together. Or lay them all down on double stick tape Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-2...-sander/628900 Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times). If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over. I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my previous projects were composed mostly of plywood. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 4:59 PM, dadiOH wrote: "Greg Guarino"
wrote in message On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote: They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight and the thick felt pad. That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my Dad's garage. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57627751790027 https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57628183501013 That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman. The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted to my hand is greatly less. There have been so many tool company buyouts/mergers that it is hard to know who made what but yours looks basically the same as the one I mentioned. If it works well, treat it well, it is a definite keeper. There's one on Ebay for $40, but it's not as shiny. :) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Port...em1c41 0ae898 I visit my parents most evenings these days. I had another browse in the garage this evening. I found another sander, a Black and Decker 7320 1/3 sheet. It's probably of a similar vintage, all metal, chrome finish. No corrosion at all. I suppose the sealed ammo box it's been in for the past several decades might have helped. I turned it on briefly and tried sanding a piece of scrap. It doesn't feel quite as solid and smooth as the Rockwell, but it wasn't too bad. Noisier too. It could still be of some use. The pad is some sort of foam rubber rather than felt and is a little beaten around the edges. Still seems flat over the active area though. Interestingly, there is a lever that selects between "orbital" and "straight-line" action. The manual (which can be found he http://servicenet.blackanddecker.com...s/Detail/7420# .... in all it's typewritten glory) recommends orbital for faster material removal and straight-line for a fine finish. I couldn't move the lever at first (it's almost inaccessible between the plate and the main housing), but knowing that my Dad wouldn't have thrown out any accessories, I had a look in the ammo box. Lo and behold; a little plastic "handle" that slips over the lever. I tried both settings. There is definitely a difference; the "orbital" setting is significantly more "orbital" than the straight-line setting. But judging by eye, there seems to still be a minor amount of "orbit" in the straight-line setting as well. I'll give it a more thorough test at some point. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 7:55 PM, Leon wrote: On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units I'm building. I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a 9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the edges to sand. I thought of that, *after* I cut up all of the pieces, naturally . I'm afraid that ripping small pieces like that is difficult with my tool (and personal) limitations; I started with stock of the proper finished cross-section (1x3 and 1x2). Still, I think I could have sanded the uncut stock. Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together. I set up something similar without clamps, a four-sided "corral" made of thinner stock (1/2" ply) screwed into the work surface. The pieces fit in it snugly. It may work out. Or lay them all down on double stick tape Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-2...-sander/628900 Extravagant for a guy who doesn't even have a table saw. :) Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached. I just unearthed a third sander. I may indeed use three sanders and avoid changing paper entirely, but we'll see how well the "new" (circa 1970 I'm guessing) one works. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
I visit my parents most evenings these days. I had another browse in the garage this evening. I found another sander, a Black and Decker 7320 1/3 sheet. It's probably of a similar vintage, all metal, chrome finish. No corrosion at all. I suppose the sealed ammo box it's been in for the past several decades might have helped. I turned it on briefly and tried sanding a piece of scrap. It doesn't feel quite as solid and smooth as the Rockwell, but it wasn't too bad. Noisier too. It could still be of some use. The pad is some sort of foam rubber rather than felt and is a little beaten around the edges. Still seems flat over the active area though. Interestingly, there is a lever that selects between "orbital" and "straight-line" action. I have one of those too, circa 1965-70. Mine is Craftsman but may well be a branded B&D. Works OK but I rarely use it, not nearly as good as the Porter Cable 1/2 sheet sander. I also have a Hitachi 1/2 sheet, rarely use it either for the same reason; also, not as heavy, hard rubber platen...works best if stuff is already dead flat. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Use for a finish sander?
On Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:44:23 AM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units I'm building. I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times). If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over. I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my previous projects were composed mostly of plywood. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com Wll, around my shop you will find those hard rubber sanding blocks with labels painted on them of 100, 150, 220. I have at least two complete sets. Keeping fresh paper on these you can sand just as fast, stay with the grain swap grits in a second by dropping one block and grabbing the next. For all projects, I power sand all the lumber to 150 after thicknessing is done and before cutting parts. I do the same for ply. I always start with 100. |
Use for a finish sander?
In article , Larry Blanchard
wrote: On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote: Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after each grit. This one (an old Rockwell) orbits. Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches. And regardless, very light pressure downwards, letting the paper cut by itself. -- ³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/2014 12:47 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote: Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after each grit. This one (an old Rockwell) orbits. Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches. Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question. Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once) covered in nasty cross grain scratches? The crux of my question was "can I profitably use orbital (not random) sanders for finer grits?" My purpose is to avoid changing grits on my (one) ROS repeatedly (or setting up each set of parts repeatedly) as I sand the 56 (mostly very small) pieces that make up the frames of my current project. A couple of people have said yes, which makes sense to me as I never had a ROS before recently and I don't remember poor results with the Orbitals I used before. Of course, most of that work was with fine grits on ply and some S4S trim. Or maybe I never looked closely enough? I'm inclined to set up the three sanders I have with 120, 150 and (perhaps) 180 for all of the Red Oak I need to sand. I'd use the ROS for the coarsest grit, mostly to remove the planer marks from the store-bought S4S lumber. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/26/2014 1:26 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/22/2014 12:47 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote: Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after each grit. This one (an old Rockwell) orbits. Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches. Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question. OK, some of the OLD orbital disk sanders were essentially a disk spinning on the end of a drill, like a grinder. You do not want that. For the most part finish sanders are typically only orbital, not random orbit, however their pattern is so small it does not matter. ROS's sanders are a nice alternative to using a belt sander when you want something that can be more aggressive than a finish sander but still almost have the same finesse as a finish sander. Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once) covered in nasty cross grain scratches? The crux of my question was "can I profitably use orbital (not random) sanders for finer grits?" My purpose is to avoid changing grits on my (one) ROS repeatedly (or setting up each set of parts repeatedly) as I sand the 56 (mostly very small) pieces that make up the frames of my current project. A couple of people have said yes, which makes sense to me as I never had a ROS before recently and I don't remember poor results with the Orbitals I used before. Of course, most of that work was with fine grits on ply and some S4S trim. Or maybe I never looked closely enough? I'm inclined to set up the three sanders I have with 120, 150 and (perhaps) 180 for all of the Red Oak I need to sand. I'd use the ROS for the coarsest grit, mostly to remove the planer marks from the store-bought S4S lumber. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Use for a finish sander?
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:26:12 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:
Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches. Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question. Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once) covered in nasty cross grain scratches? IIRC, the one I had (from Sears) did have the nasties. I used the orbital mode for the coarsest grits and the straight line (with the grain) for the finer ones. I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded right across the corners with no scratches :-) |
Use for a finish sander?
On 6/22/14 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units I'm building. I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts. Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue S4S red oak. Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a 9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the edges to sand. Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together. Amen to this! I do this often for end grain on shelves and such. It also has the benefit of avoiding rounding over the edges. -BR Or lay them all down on double stick tape Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-2...-sander/628900 Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached. I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome) third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times). If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over. I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my previous projects were composed mostly of plywood. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-) So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only for finer grits? I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being a novice, I have to ask. While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a random-orbit sander, by the way) --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 8:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-) So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only for finer grits? Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander, is more important. The scratches from both sanders are difficult to see unless you work the sanders across the grain. I use a ROS on joints and for my first 120 or 150 grit pass. Once every thing is smooth I move to the next grit and typically to my finish sander and only moving the sander in the direction of the grain. I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being a novice, I have to ask. See above. While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a random-orbit sander, by the way) Ease any edges that might become vulnerable to hits thus causing the edge to break off. Also ease all edges that your body parts might come in contact with. Ease only edges that are on the outside after assembly. Don't ease the edge that will be a part of the joint surface. Some styles of furniture have chamfered edges on all edges, meaning all edges are given that profile before assembly. Don't do this when simply easing the edges. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a random-orbit sander, by the way) I ease edges after assembly; however, unlike Leon, I do the inside edges as well simply because I like the look. One needs to exercise a bit of caution where two pieces meet; if oneis really anal, one can make that union look like it had been coped. There are times when an eased inside edge is useful (as well as esthetic), either between two pieces in the same component or two different components. For example, the inside edge of a breadboard end is often eased as are the butting face frame edges in a row of cabinets. It is called a "quirk" and is useful because - expecially in the case of cabinets - it is close to impossible to get the abutting face frame edges perfectly aligned. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
Leon wrote:
Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander, is more important. I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree on that point. -- -Mike- |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 10:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only for finer grits? Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking here. Family obligations have whittled (sanded? planed? sawn?) down my "hobby" time to nearly nil lately. And anyway, without ignorant questions as a seed, how would any woodworking discussions get stated around here? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 9:54 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote: Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander, is more important. I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree on that point. Well Mike, I am not just making this stuff up. The proof is in the pudding, Try moving you finish sander and or ROS in a direction other than with the grain and you will end up with scratches that go across the grain. Regardless of which direction the small scratch pattern the ROS or finish sanders make when you drag across the grain the scratch patterns are no longer hidden by the grain. Been there Done that. FWIW the ideal sander speed is 1" per second. |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote: On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-) So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only for finer grits? Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking here. Some times Mike you can be a real putz. |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 8:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-) So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only for finer grits? What Leon, said. While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a random-orbit sander, by the way) Again, what Leon said, except add to that, "breaking"/easing the edges has a valid purpose in finishing, other than mentioned by posters thus far, such as for feel, appearance, and protection of edges from breaks and splintering on impact. Sprayed and/or painted top coat finishes have a tendency to build up on sharp edges, which can often result in areas that may flake and/or show an unevenness, sometimes even in shade/color. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 9:28 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a random-orbit sander, by the way) I ease edges after assembly; however, unlike Leon, I do the inside edges as well simply because I like the look. One needs to exercise a bit of caution where two pieces meet; if oneis really anal, one can make that union look like it had been coped. Actually I do ease inside edges, If I can touch the edge I ease it no matter where it is. I simply don't ease edges before assembly as some of those edges will no longer be exposed. I don't ease the edge of the end of a rail where it joins a stile. There are times when an eased inside edge is useful (as well as esthetic), either between two pieces in the same component or two different components. For example, the inside edge of a breadboard end is often eased as are the butting face frame edges in a row of cabinets. It is called a "quirk" and is useful because - expecially in the case of cabinets - it is close to impossible to get the abutting face frame edges perfectly aligned. This is as I mentioned where all edges including those in the joint have a chamfer or other profile on all edges of the rails and stiles. |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote: Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander, is more important. I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree on that point. Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in. I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander. I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't. Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the randomness? |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
Leon wrote:
On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote: Greg Guarino wrote: On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-) So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only for finer grits? Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking here. Some times Mike you can be a real putz. Sometimes? -- -Mike- |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 11:13 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're orbital, not directional. OK, I'm taking sides here. ;) My experience in that regard more closely matches Leon's. IME, ROS sanding scratches do show up on crossgrain (proportionate to the coarseness of the grit) much more than on long grain when using a ROS across a crossgrain joint, like a rail and stile, even with a top quality random orbit sander. Unfinished, you might never see them, but they have a tendency to become much more evident under a stain and topcoat. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he has an orbital sander, not a*random* orbital sander. Leon uses a 5" Festool ROS, IIRC ... and one look, up close and personal, at anything he builds and finishes will tell you, without equivocation, that he indeed he is a master at using it. ;) Again IME, and because there are a myriad of reasons where you do not want to sand past a certain grit, heeding Leon's advice regarding following grain direction when using a ROS, may well save a project you just thought that, by using a ROS without regard to grain, there would be no problems with sanding marks showing up after a stain and topcoat was applied. YMMV ... -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote: Some times Mike you can be a real putz. Sometimes? At least he didn't capitalize it like I would have. g,d&r BTW, enjoyed our phone conversation this morning. Now, if we could only get the rest of this country to heed our advice. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 12:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
IME, ROS sanding scratches do show up on crossgrain (proportionate to the coarseness of the grit) much more than on long grain when using a ROS across a crossgrain joint, like a rail and stile, even with a top quality random orbit sander. Unfinished, you might never see them, but they have a tendency to become much more evident under a stain and topcoat. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he has an orbital sander, not a*random* orbital sander. Leon uses a 5" Festool ROS, IIRC ... and one look, up close and personal, at anything he builds and finishes will tell you, without equivocation, that he indeed he is a master at using it. ;) Again IME, and because there are a myriad of reasons where you do not want to sand past a certain grit, heeding Leon's advice regarding following grain direction when using a ROS, may well save a project you just thought that, by using a ROS without regard to grain, there would be no problems with sanding marks showing up after a stain and topcoat was applied. As often happens, I don't see a clear answer. Still, I usually learn something. Here's why I asked: For those of you who have forgotten, or figure I MUST have moved on to a new project by now, I'm building two of these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490 (plus shelves and a top, of course) I've made essentially no progress at all since the dry fit pictured in the photo. (family obligations) As you can see, the project is composed practically entirely of face-frame-like components. I think I did a fair job of lining up the dowel holes that will hold it all together, but especially after sanding all of the pieces individually, I'm sure the joints on the ladder sides won't be exactly flat. I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any imperfections. I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints flat? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote: Leon wrote: Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander, is more important. I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree on that point. Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in. I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander. I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't. Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the randomness? It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion generated by the sander. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any imperfections. I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints flat? I always do finish sanding afrer assembly. My only method is to use a 1/2 sheet - sometimes - 1/4 sheet depending upon area - which gets joints nice and even. I don't use my ROS for two reasons...1. I don't like them and, 2. the 1/2 sheet does a better job IME. In the case of your "ladders". I might well have cut a "small V" quirk; it could save a lot of work and could look good. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
dadiOH wrote:
It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion generated by the sander. I happen to agree with that statement and that's what I had said in my reply. But... I do defer to those who do finer work than I do (like Leon and Karl), and I do accept their opinions since they go way beyond the level of acceptance that I do. -- -Mike- |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
"Larry Blanchard" wrote Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the randomness? Most definitely. You would notice it, because the normally tame sander turns into a grinding disk instead of a ROS. There is a ball bearing that can tie up due to the fine dust, but a high quality sander has a good enough seal that it is unlikely to seize. That being said, I have seen it happen. -- Jim in NC --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 12:52 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any imperfections. Having that deliberate line is often done to hide joinery imperfections; it can also be a deliberate design feature; and it can certainly serve both purposes at the same time. The decision is entirely up to you, so keep'em guessing. ;) I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints flat? I personally have rarely used that particular method/device to hide inaccurate joinery in face frames ... can't remember the last time. The issue where it would be necessary is mostly one of project parts not being cut or milled perfectly square/at right angles. By insuring your stock is prepared with square edges during milling, ripping, and crosscutting, and by batch cutting ALL parts, you can pretty well discount that being a problem. That notwithstanding, that does not preclude the occasional need to sand some joints to insure their adjoining exposed faces are level with each other ... a not uncommon occurrence when gluing up parts using any joinery; often a byproduct of clamping issues, like slight slipping under pressure. Depending upon the severity, most of these can be taken care with a finish sander, or the "aggressive" setting on a ROS if need be, and you have one that will do that. However, when installing a 15' run of face frame, base or wall cabinets to each other, a ROS (preferably one with an "aggressive" setting, like the Festool 5 and 6" Rotex sanders) is often essential in getting an evenly matching surface between adjacent cabinets so the doors and drawer fronts are in the same plane to those in adjacent cabinets. Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course. IOW, it's not like its an uncommon issue. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
Depending upon the severity, most of these can be taken care with a finish sander, or the "aggressive" setting on a ROS if need be, and you have one that will do that. I have finish sanders and a single-setting ROS (DeWalt). But what I'm asking is, do I sand right over the joint? Grits? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course. I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain sanding doesn't produce bad effects. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Sanding face frames with ROS, right across the joints?
On 7/21/2014 3:03 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote: Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course. I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain sanding doesn't produce bad effects. Not the final sanding... -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
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