.... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

He (hypothetically, of course) puts some pencil marks on the wrong
edge of a face frame, the outside edge. He realizes his mistake and
redoes the marks in the proper place, intending to sand off the ones
he made in error. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he forgets
to do so, partly because he thought that edge would butt up against
another unit and partly due to general absent-mindedness.

Our fictional novice woodworker then proceeds to finish over the
marks, only discovering that they will indeed be on an exposed side as
he applying the tenth clamp to glue the face frame to the box. He does
not take the whole works apart at this point.

So, were such an improbably boneheaded error to actually happen, how
would you advise him to fix it? I imagine he would first think to sand
it with some pretty coarse sandpaper to get through the poly and
pencil, then smooth and refinish. But that sounds pretty laborious. I
wonder if he could shave off the tiniest amount with a router (our
hypothetical face frame is maybe 3/32" proud of the cabinet edge) and
straight-edge.

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

I'd use a card scraper if I ever made a mistake like that... The poly and
pencil marks would come off quickly without altering the dimensions...

AW come on Greg. I know you would never do that. WW

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

.... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

He (hypothetically, of course) puts some pencil marks on the wrong
edge of a face frame, the outside edge. He realizes his mistake and
redoes the marks in the proper place, intending to sand off the ones
he made in error. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he forgets
to do so, partly because he thought that edge would butt up against
another unit and partly due to general absent-mindedness.

Our fictional novice woodworker then proceeds to finish over the
marks, only discovering that they will indeed be on an exposed side as
he applying the tenth clamp to glue the face frame to the box. He does
not take the whole works apart at this point.

So, were such an improbably boneheaded error to actually happen, how
would you advise him to fix it? I imagine he would first think to sand
it with some pretty coarse sandpaper to get through the poly and
pencil, then smooth and refinish. But that sounds pretty laborious. I
wonder if he could shave off the tiniest amount with a router (our
hypothetical face frame is maybe 3/32" proud of the cabinet edge) and
straight-edge.

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...
... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

He (hypothetically, of course) puts some pencil marks on the wrong
edge of a face frame, the outside edge. He realizes his mistake and
redoes the marks in the proper place, intending to sand off the ones
he made in error. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he forgets
to do so, partly because he thought that edge would butt up against
another unit and partly due to general absent-mindedness.

Our fictional novice woodworker then proceeds to finish over the
marks, only discovering that they will indeed be on an exposed side as
he applying the tenth clamp to glue the face frame to the box. He does
not take the whole works apart at this point.

So, were such an improbably boneheaded error to actually happen, how
would you advise him to fix it? I imagine he would first think to sand
it with some pretty coarse sandpaper to get through the poly and
pencil, then smooth and refinish. But that sounds pretty laborious. I
wonder if he could shave off the tiniest amount with a router (our
hypothetical face frame is maybe 3/32" proud of the cabinet edge) and
straight-edge.

This is entirely right pondian thinking.
A well-fettled smoothing plane would do the job in seconds, if you can get
one in there.
JG refers to a card scraper. I imagine this is what I would call a cabinet
scraper. Bit of hardened steel with a burr formed along the edge(s). Great
tools but (1) never to be used on softwood and (2) pita to reshape the burr
unless you use them frequently.
I think the use of a router would be overkill.
That makes me wonder about something, but I'll put my wanderings in another
post.
Good luck,
Nick.

"Nick" wrote in message ...


"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...
... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

He (hypothetically, of course) puts some pencil marks on the wrong
edge of a face frame, the outside edge. He realizes his mistake and
redoes the marks in the proper place, intending to sand off the ones
he made in error. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he forgets
to do so, partly because he thought that edge would butt up against
another unit and partly due to general absent-mindedness.

Our fictional novice woodworker then proceeds to finish over the
marks, only discovering that they will indeed be on an exposed side as
he applying the tenth clamp to glue the face frame to the box. He does
not take the whole works apart at this point.

So, were such an improbably boneheaded error to actually happen, how
would you advise him to fix it? I imagine he would first think to sand
it with some pretty coarse sandpaper to get through the poly and
pencil, then smooth and refinish. But that sounds pretty laborious. I
wonder if he could shave off the tiniest amount with a router (our
hypothetical face frame is maybe 3/32" proud of the cabinet edge) and
straight-edge.

This is entirely right pondian thinking.
A well-fettled smoothing plane would do the job in seconds, if you can get
one in there.
JG refers to a card scraper. I imagine this is what I would call a cabinet
scraper. Bit of hardened steel with a burr formed along the edge(s). Great
tools but (1) never to be used on softwood and (2) pita to reshape the burr
unless you use them frequently.

Yup... aka cabinet scraper. RE softwoods, I use them on woods like pine all
the time. If well prepared they do a wonderful job on pine and fir. I often
use one as an eraser as I do layouts and such as they work far better than a
real eraser. I think the "conventional" wisdom is due to dull scrapers not
working...

John

On Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:26:13 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote ... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the following problem: I'd use a card scraper if I ever made a mistake like that...

I've made that mistake, before, in a tight spot, hard to conveniently get to. Rather than a card/cabinet scraper, I used the sharp slightly curved edge of my Buckknife, but any sharp slightly curved stout bladed knife will do. I've done somewhat delicate paint scrapings with this technique and have scraped sprayed lacquer runs/bad drips in tight/small places, also. It's a modified card/cabinet scraping technique.... modified for small, tight places.

The curved edge allows for site/spot specific scraping.

Sonny

On 4/28/2013 3:21 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

He (hypothetically, of course) puts some pencil marks on the wrong
edge of a face frame, the outside edge. He realizes his mistake and
redoes the marks in the proper place, intending to sand off the ones
he made in error. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he forgets
to do so, partly because he thought that edge would butt up against
another unit and partly due to general absent-mindedness.

Our fictional novice woodworker then proceeds to finish over the
marks, only discovering that they will indeed be on an exposed side as
he applying the tenth clamp to glue the face frame to the box. He does
not take the whole works apart at this point.

So, were such an improbably boneheaded error to actually happen, how
would you advise him to fix it? I imagine he would first think to sand
it with some pretty coarse sandpaper to get through the poly and
pencil, then smooth and refinish. But that sounds pretty laborious. I
wonder if he could shave off the tiniest amount with a router (our
hypothetical face frame is maybe 3/32" proud of the cabinet edge) and
straight-edge.

Pretend that the marks are an avant garde design feature.
:-)

On Apr 28, 6:49*pm, "Nick" wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message

...









... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

He (hypothetically, of course) puts some pencil marks on the wrong
edge of a face frame, the outside edge. He realizes his mistake and
redoes the marks in the proper place, intending to sand off the ones
he made in error. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he forgets
to do so, partly because he thought that edge would butt up against
another unit and partly due to general absent-mindedness.

Our fictional novice woodworker then proceeds to finish over the
marks, only discovering that they will indeed be on an exposed side as
he applying the tenth clamp to glue the face frame to the box. He does
not take the whole works apart at this point.

So, were such an improbably boneheaded error to actually happen, how
would you advise him to fix it? I imagine he would first think to sand
it with some pretty coarse sandpaper to get through the poly and
pencil, then smooth and refinish. But that sounds pretty laborious. I
wonder if he could shave off the tiniest amount with a router (our
hypothetical face frame is maybe 3/32" proud of the cabinet edge) and
straight-edge.

This is entirely right pondian thinking.
A well-fettled smoothing plane would do the job in seconds, if you can get
one in there.
JG refers to a card scraper. I imagine this is what I would call a cabinet
scraper. Bit of hardened steel with a burr formed along the edge(s). Great
tools but (1) never to be used on softwood and (2) pita to reshape the burr
unless you use them frequently.
I think the use of a router would be overkill.
That makes me wonder about something, but I'll put my wanderings in another
post.
Good luck,
Nick.

I (uh, he) considered this idea but worries that his skills with a
plane are still in their infancy. The edge in question is almost five
feet long. I assume he would need to take down the whole length the
same amount even though the pencil marks are confined to three small
areas, correct?

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in news:
:

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

I'd use a card scraper if I ever made a mistake like that... The poly and
pencil marks would come off quickly without altering the dimensions...

Concur. That would be my first choice as well.

Greg Guarino wrote:

I (uh, he) considered this idea but worries that his skills with a
plane are still in their infancy. The edge in question is almost five
feet long. I assume he would need to take down the whole length the
same amount even though the pencil marks are confined to three small
areas, correct?

Incorrect. Use a scraper.

Once through the varnish, alcohol should remove the pencir; or an eraser; or
sandpaper; or even the scraper.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 4/30/2013 1:31 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

I'd use a card scraper if I ever made a mistake like that...

I was going to suggest laser ablation, but a card scraper would
have been my second choice. Plus, I don't have a laser.

I've got a card scraper; one, to be exact. I bought a honing rod from
Hock too. But I do not believe I have yet produced a really usable edge.
I've watched some videos and taken brief stabs at it, but there's still
something missing. That something is quite likely "practice", but it
still leaves me a little wary of using this method on something I put so
much work into.

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message ...

something missing. That something is quite likely "practice", but it still
leaves me a little wary of using this method on something I put so much
work into.

Funny... that is exactly why I would use one!

It might be worth a bit of practice on another surface first though to get a
feel for it. This after prepping the scraper... Two major issues I've seen
with prepping scrapers. First is the need to file away all the work hardened
steel before honing and burnishing. Failing to do so makes it difficult to
pull a good burr. Second is trying to turn too large of a burr. The rest is
technique in using the scraper which comes with some experimentation.

John

"John Grossbohlin" writes:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message ...

something missing. That something is quite likely "practice", but it still
leaves me a little wary of using this method on something I put so much
work into.

Funny... that is exactly why I would use one!

It might be worth a bit of practice on another surface first though to get a
feel for it. This after prepping the scraper... Two major issues I've seen
with prepping scrapers. First is the need to file away all the work hardened
steel before honing and burnishing. Failing to do so makes it difficult to
pull a good burr. Second is trying to turn too large of a burr. The rest is
technique in using the scraper which comes with some experimentation.

One technique I've found useful after filing the edge square is to lay the
scraper flat on the bench and use the burnishing rod to draw the edge
prior to turning the hook.


before

-----------------
|
-----------------

after

------------------
|
------------------

slightly exaggerated for emphasis.

Greg Guarino wrote:

I've got a card scraper; one, to be exact. I bought a honing rod from
Hock too. But I do not believe I have yet produced a really usable
edge.

So use a chisel. Or a knife. A sharp, curved blade lets you scrape in a
constrained area.

I've watched some videos and taken brief stabs at it, but
there's still something missing. That something is quite likely
"practice", but it still leaves me a little wary of using this method
on something I put so much work into.

If you doubt your ability to scrape, varnish something and practice.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Greg Guarino wrote:
On 4/30/2013 1:31 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

I'd use a card scraper if I ever made a mistake like that...

I was going to suggest laser ablation, but a card scraper would
have been my second choice. Plus, I don't have a laser.

I've got a card scraper; one, to be exact. I bought a honing rod from
Hock too. But I do not believe I have yet produced a really usable
edge. I've watched some videos and taken brief stabs at it, but
there's still something missing. That something is quite likely
"practice", but it still leaves me a little wary of using this method
on something I put so much work into.

Ya know Greg - like Bill, you need to just step out and try some things. So
what if you make a mistake? The worst that comes from it is that you learn.
You just can't keep asking every single little step of every little thing,
every little bit, along the way. Just do it man! Do it and if you screw it
up, do it again. Guys like you and Bill have to come to understand that you
cannot avoid every possible occurrance by asking questions. Like Leon has
said - we all screw up. So - go after it and figure out how to deal with
it. You can do it... Don't ask - just try. You can do it...

--

-Mike-

On 4/30/2013 7:36 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:

I've got a card scraper; one, to be exact. I bought a honing rod from
Hock too. But I do not believe I have yet produced a really usable
edge.

So use a chisel. Or a knife. A sharp, curved blade lets you scrape in a
constrained area.

I've watched some videos and taken brief stabs at it, but
there's still something missing. That something is quite likely
"practice", but it still leaves me a little wary of using this method
on something I put so much work into.

If you doubt your ability to scrape, varnish something and practice.

I've got a bin full of scraps like that already (test pieces are my most
frequent product). I was in fact planning to do a test first with
whatever method(s)I choose. I have planed the finish off many pieces
before, but my ability to plane a 5' piece without making it wavy is
questionable.

All this talk about card scrapers and possibly router bits ~ wouldn't
it be easier to apply a small dab of stripper, remove the finish in
that area and then if the pencil marking is still there, use an eraser
on it?

On 5/1/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:
All this talk about card scrapers and possibly router bits ~ wouldn't
it be easier to apply a small dab of stripper, remove the finish in
that area and then if the pencil marking is still there, use an eraser
on it?

I don't know. Would it?

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:38:00 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/1/2013 10:20 AM, none wrote: All this talk about card scrapers and possibly router bits ~ wouldn't it be easier to apply a small dab of stripper, remove the finish in that area and then if the pencil marking is still there, use an eraser on it? I don't know. Would it?

No.

That mistake, IMO, should have been resolved within 10-15 minutes, per edge, if not faster. A regular scraper, 6" long, might, might! be awkward to keep flat on/against the whole length of the narrow edge, but scraping with a gently curved stout sharp knife would have made quick work of the finish along the edge. Lightly sand any remaining roughness, erase or sand the pencil marks off, then refinish.

Sonny

On 4/30/2013 11:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 4/30/2013 1:31 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

... and this purely hypothetical idiot asks you for advice with the
following problem:

I'd use a card scraper if I ever made a mistake like that...

I was going to suggest laser ablation, but a card scraper would
have been my second choice. Plus, I don't have a laser.

I've got a card scraper; one, to be exact. I bought a honing rod from
Hock too. But I do not believe I have yet produced a really usable
edge. I've watched some videos and taken brief stabs at it, but
there's still something missing. That something is quite likely
"practice", but it still leaves me a little wary of using this method
on something I put so much work into.

Ya know Greg - like Bill,

You know Mike, please keep me out of your analogies (when is the last
time you heard a question out of me?)


you need to just step out and try some things. So
what if you make a mistake? The worst that comes from it is that you learn.
You just can't keep asking every single little step of every little thing,
every little bit, along the way. Just do it man! Do it and if you screw it
up, do it again. Guys like you and Bill have to come to understand that you
cannot avoid every possible occurrance by asking questions. Like Leon has
said - we all screw up. So - go after it and figure out how to deal with
it. You can do it... Don't ask - just try. You can do it...

Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/1/2013 10:20 AM, wrote:
All this talk about card scrapers and possibly router bits ~ wouldn't
it be easier to apply a small dab of stripper, remove the finish in
that area and then if the pencil marking is still there, use an
eraser on it?

I don't know. Would it?

Yes. Strip, scrape, whatever to get to wood. No need to do so everywhere,
just where the pencil marks are.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Bill wrote:


You know Mike, please keep me out of your analogies (when is the last
time you heard a question out of me?)



Fair enough. Was not intending to insult you, rather I was just making
reference to common postings here, and to be encouraging to Greg in the same
way we have encouraged you.

--

-Mike-

wrote in message ...

All this talk about card scrapers and possibly router bits ~ wouldn't
it be easier to apply a small dab of stripper, remove the finish in
that area and then if the pencil marking is still there, use an eraser
on it?
================================================== ==============
Can't do that. To easy.

On May 1, 12:59*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:

Strip, scrape, whatever to get to wood. *No need to do so everywhere,
just where the pencil marks are.

OK. So I used a card scraper. Although I'm still convinced I haven't
succeeded in preparing the edge properly, it made short work of
removing the poly and pencil marks. Thanks to the several people who
suggested it.

I only scraped the three areas where the pencil marks were. To recap,
it's the edge of a face frame, 3/4 wide. I've now got 3 areas each 3"
long or so with no finish out of 5 feet. If I reapply the same finish
( 4 coats of wiping poly) in those areas, it really won't look uneven?
Should I just coat the whole edge instead? Or at least on the last
coat?

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 6:21:32 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
If I reapply the same finish ( 4 coats of wiping poly) in those areas, it really won't look uneven?

After the first coat or 2, you may perceive a difference, but subsequent coats should even it out. Your wipe-on will be thin coats, so you'll be creeping up on matching the existing surface. Also, if you feel there is significant overlap on the existing surface, simply whisk/wipe off what's overlapping.

Should I just coat the whole edge instead? Or at least on the last coat?

Last coat option: See what the results of the spot coating does, before deciding to recoat the whole.

Sonny

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 6:53:13 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:


Also, I suppose you did, but did you feather/sand the edges of the remaining finish, after card scraping, or is there a definitive (bump) edge remaining?

Feather/sand any raised edge.

Sonny

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...

On May 1, 12:59 pm, "dadiOH" wrote:

Strip, scrape, whatever to get to wood. No need to do so everywhere,
just where the pencil marks are.

OK. So I used a card scraper. Although I'm still convinced I haven't
succeeded in preparing the edge properly, it made short work of
removing the poly and pencil marks. Thanks to the several people who
suggested it.

Experiment a bit... you'll find that subtle changes in how you prepare the
edge can make material differences in the performance. While experimenting
take careful note of what you did so you can repeat what worked!

I only scraped the three areas where the pencil marks were. To recap,
it's the edge of a face frame, 3/4 wide. I've now got 3 areas each 3"
long or so with no finish out of 5 feet. If I reapply the same finish
( 4 coats of wiping poly) in those areas, it really won't look uneven?
Should I just coat the whole edge instead? Or at least on the last
coat?

With new work like this I'd be inclined to scrape the entire edge, give the
corner a light sanding, and apply new finish to the entire length. The
scraper will make short work of the poly and the whole process will go
faster than feathering the existing finish, spot finishing, leveling, and
rubbing out to make it look uniform...

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:05:52 AM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
With new work like this I'd be inclined to scrape the entire edge, give the corner a light sanding, and apply new finish to the entire length. The scraper will make short work of the poly and the whole process will go faster than feathering the existing finish, spot finishing, leveling, and rubbing out to make it look uniform...

There is excellent merit in John's recommendation. If you're not in so much of a rush, maybe do the spot repair, for practice. If you ever have an old piece, that needs matching/blending colors, gloss, etc., for a spot repair, you'll have some experience. Take this easy opportunity to do some practicing, if not in a rush. If, after your "practice" session, you are not completely satisfied with the results, you can do as John says, scrape, prep and refinish the whole, since it shouldn't take long, at all, to scrape, prep, refinish the whole edge/edges.

For an older piece, you might not want to do your first time attempt/practicing of spot repair on the/an original.

Sonny

On 5/8/2013 10:05 AM, Sonny wrote:
Take this easy opportunity to do some practicing, if not in a rush. If, after your "practice" session, you are not completely satisfied with the results, you can do as John says, scrape, prep and refinish the whole, since it shouldn't take long, at all, to scrape, prep, refinish the whole edge/edges.

I hadn't thought of that. If I spot refinish, I won't have made it any
harder to scrape the whole thing afterwards if I'm not satisfied. And
even though I have basically no free time these days, I can wipe on a
coat each evening in a few minutes.