I tried my hand at making a couple of cabinet doors this weekend and
they came out OK for a first try. I don't have a Rail and Stile bit
set (yet) so here's what I did, just to make a couple of protoypes to
show SWMBO:

The frame was made from 3/4 poplar, the panel was 1/4 luan.

I used a round-over bit on the inside of the 2 3/4" frame, a cove bit
on the outside and a 1/4" straight bit for the plywood panel.

I used miter joints at the corners and #10 biscuits to join them.

Things I learned:

1 - I need a new 1/4 straight bit
2 - My miter saw needs a bit of adjustment
3 - When you do an eyeball test with #0 biscuits and set the biscuit
joiner to #0, then decide that you have room for #10 biscuits, you
really should change the setting on the joiner or it's really hard to
get the miters to close fully. #10 biscuits in a #0 slot are really
tight! ;-) I guess that's why we dry fit first, isn't it?

OK, so if I decide that I'm really going to make 19 doors and 6
drawers, I need to improve my process. I'm considering using a Rail
and Stile bit set but before I invest in a set, I have 2 main
questions:

1 - Is a PC 690 (1 3/4 HP, single speed) router powerful enough to use
with a Rail and Stile bit set?
2 - What's the trick to ensure a perfectly square cope on the end
grain of the rails?

I've been checking out some videos and doing some reading on making
cabinet doors, but I'm very open to all suggestions, including books
or websites.

Thanks!

On 12/12/2012 2:44 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I tried my hand at making a couple of cabinet doors this weekend and
they came out OK for a first try. I don't have a Rail and Stile bit
set (yet) so here's what I did, just to make a couple of protoypes to
show SWMBO:

The frame was made from 3/4 poplar, the panel was 1/4 luan.

I used a round-over bit on the inside of the 2 3/4" frame, a cove bit
on the outside and a 1/4" straight bit for the plywood panel.

I used miter joints at the corners and #10 biscuits to join them.
....

1 - Is a PC 690 (1 3/4 HP, single speed) router powerful enough to use
with a Rail and Stile bit set?
2 - What's the trick to ensure a perfectly square cope on the end
grain of the rails?

....

1) Surely ought to be...
2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

Cut the slot w/ TS instead of router or if going to use a router get a
slotting cutter, not a standard 1/4' bit. You have to be sure it
matches your ply thickness correctly though; the undersized/metric stuff
is a royal pita...

Again, make your sizes consistent to have only a couple or maybe three
different sizes overall and make the pieces in bulk.

And, of course, then forget about the miters--when they're square
they'll just fall together square w/ the least amount of pressure
assembling.

For speed there, instead of clamps set up an assembly table w/ a rail
against which to put one side and cross pieces between as many as you
can have room for. Then a second rail on the opposite and just use
wedges to apply pressure. Or, if you want to get fancy, make the oval
cams and fasten them on one side/ends. Much faster than messing w/ clamps.

--


--

On 12/12/2012 3:18 PM, dpb wrote:
....

2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

....

And, of course, for simple tool cabinet doors/drawer fronts you can "go
shaker" and forget the shaping entirely and also cut the end dadoes on
the TS...you can dress up the outer edge after assembly or before and if
you really, really want the inner edge rounded it can be done, too, just
set up a stop to leave the ends for the joint to not have to do the
coping cut for a matching cut/cope.

--

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 12:44:45 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I tried my hand at making a couple of cabinet doors this weekend and they came out OK for a first try. I don't have a Rail and Stile bit set (yet) so here's what I did, just to make a couple of protoypes to show SWMBO: The frame was made from 3/4 poplar, the panel was 1/4 luan. I used a round-over bit on the inside of the 2 3/4" frame, a cove bit on the outside and a 1/4" straight bit for the plywood panel. I used miter joints at the corners and #10 biscuits to join them. Things I learned: 1 - I need a new 1/4 straight bit 2 - My miter saw needs a bit of adjustment 3 - When you do an eyeball test with #0 biscuits and set the biscuit joiner to #0, then decide that you have room for #10 biscuits, you really should change the setting on the joiner or it's really hard to get the miters to close fully. #10 biscuits in a #0 slot are really tight! ;-) I guess that's why we dry fit first, isn't it? OK, so if I decide that I'm really going to make 19 doors and 6 drawers, I need to improve my process. I'm considering using a Rail and Stile bit set but before I invest in a set, I have 2 main questions: 1 - Is a PC 690 (1 3/4 HP, single speed) router powerful enough to use with a Rail and Stile bit set? 2 - What's the trick to ensure a perfectly square cope on the end grain of the rails? I've been checking out some videos and doing some reading on making cabinet doors, but I'm very open to all suggestions, including books or websites. Thanks!

Yes, mounted in a table that router will eaqsily spin the rail\sitile bits. Could be a bit on the low side for a big panel but but sounds like you are doing flat panels anyway.

You need to learn about a "Coping Sled" to cut the rail ends. You can build them or buy them. I built one from a plan in a magazine a few years back and it is my pride and joy. Thing is bullet proof and a real workhorse. If I can locate the plans I'll post a link.

"DerbyDad03" wrote:

1 - Is a PC 690 (1 3/4 HP, single speed) router powerful enough to
use
with a Rail and Stile bit set?
-------------------------------------------------------
That's a basic 25,000 RPM machine.

Max diameter bit at that RPM is about 1" dia.

Bit manufacturers include the MAX RPM with every bit they sell.

If you plan on doing raised panel doors which use about a 3" Dia
bit.

Operating that bit at 25,000 RPM is a disaster waiting to happen.

You will need a 3+HP machine operating at 7-8,000 RPM.

No raised panel doors, PC690 should handle it.

Make flat panel doors and you can do everything on a T/S,
no router needed.

Have fun.

Lew

On 12/12/12 4:18 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/12/2012 2:44 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I tried my hand at making a couple of cabinet doors this weekend and
they came out OK for a first try. I don't have a Rail and Stile bit
set (yet) so here's what I did, just to make a couple of protoypes to
show SWMBO:

The frame was made from 3/4 poplar, the panel was 1/4 luan.

I used a round-over bit on the inside of the 2 3/4" frame, a cove bit
on the outside and a 1/4" straight bit for the plywood panel.

I used miter joints at the corners and #10 biscuits to join them.
...

1 - Is a PC 690 (1 3/4 HP, single speed) router powerful enough to use
with a Rail and Stile bit set?
2 - What's the trick to ensure a perfectly square cope on the end
grain of the rails?


...

1) Surely ought to be...
2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6, all from different sources, offers that advice. Every
thing I've read says to use a sled or a push block to keep the rails
square with the fence.

I'm not saying that your suggestion doesn't have merit, I'm just saying
that I haven't come across a cabinet door building site - video, text or
PDF - that suggests that method.



Cut the slot w/ TS instead of router or if going to use a router get a
slotting cutter, not a standard 1/4' bit. You have to be sure it
matches your ply thickness correctly though; the undersized/metric stuff
is a royal pita...

If I'm using a rail and stile bit, why do I need to cut the slot on a
table saw or slot cutter? I only used the 1/4" bit because, as I said, I
don't have a rail and stile bit yet.



Again, make your sizes consistent to have only a couple or maybe three
different sizes overall and make the pieces in bulk.

That ain't gonna happen. I'm making doors for stick built cabinets so I
have to match what is already there. There's at least 5 different widths
and 6 different heights.


And, of course, then forget about the miters--when they're square
they'll just fall together square w/ the least amount of pressure
assembling.

For speed there, instead of clamps set up an assembly table w/ a rail
against which to put one side and cross pieces between as many as you
can have room for. Then a second rail on the opposite and just use
wedges to apply pressure. Or, if you want to get fancy, make the oval
cams and fasten them on one side/ends. Much faster than messing w/ clamps.

That's a thought. I recently picked up three flat doors that someone was
throwing out, figuring I would at some time need tables for something. I
could glue up a bunch of doors if I laid the "tables" end to end across
my basement.


BTW...just ran across this free router e-book. Lots of tip and techniques.

http://torbwine.com/ww/routerbook.htm

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote:

1 - Is a PC 690 (1 3/4 HP, single speed) router powerful enough to
use
with a Rail and Stile bit set?
-------------------------------------------------------
That's a basic 25,000 RPM machine.

Max diameter bit at that RPM is about 1" dia.

Bit manufacturers include the MAX RPM with every bit they sell.

If you plan on doing raised panel doors which use about a 3" Dia
bit.

Operating that bit at 25,000 RPM is a disaster waiting to happen.

You will need a 3+HP machine operating at 7-8,000 RPM.

No raised panel doors, PC690 should handle it.

Make flat panel doors and you can do everything on a T/S,
no router needed.

Have fun.

Lew


I have a related question. I have a Dewalt 2 1/4 HP router (Model 618)
which will do 8000 RPM (and faster, of course).

Can I use it in a table with a 3" diameter bit to cut a "raised panel"
in Cherry wood? I only need to make 2-4 panels, so I hope this is
workable. I assume my "luck" will be better if I only cut 1/8" or less
at a time. Is that about right?

Bill

On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 12/12/12 4:18 PM, dpb wrote:
....

2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6, all from different sources, offers that advice. Every
thing I've read says to use a sled or a push block to keep the rails
square with the fence.

I'm not saying that your suggestion doesn't have merit, I'm just saying
that I haven't come across a cabinet door building site - video, text or
PDF - that suggests that method.
....

You lookin' for how to do it quickly, weren't you? I'm tellin' ya'...

It's trivial; use scaling of cutting fewer individual pieces in more detail.

I've been doing this for some 50 yr now...the "trick" was in the
original handout on making windows/doors/etc. that Delta/Rockwell used
to distribute (like up to the '60s into the '70s) w/ their shapers
reprinted from an industrial arts text...

If you don't plan ahead and have to have all the multiple sizes, do the
best you can to make as many sets of the same as you can at a given time
but even if it's only the top and bottom rails, cutting them at the same
time ensures they're the same length.

--

"Bill" wrote:


I have a related question. I have a Dewalt 2 1/4 HP router (Model
618) which will do 8000 RPM (and faster, of course).

Can I use it in a table with a 3" diameter bit to cut a "raised
panel" in Cherry wood? I only need to make 2-4 panels, so I hope
this is workable. I assume my "luck" will be better if I only cut
1/8" or less at a time. Is that about right?
----------------------------------------------------------
What is the MAX RPM spec'd by the bit mfg?

Shallow passes are the only way to go with a large bit.

Lew

On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6,...

And, if one thinks that all there is to be learned is on the web...

There was/is a whole industry of production woodworking _long_ before
internet was even imagined. There's a "veritable plethora" of
production techniques that were developed before fully automated 4-sided
shapers, etc., and mill shops were mostly handwork instead of CNC
programming.

I was fortunate to have had an instructor when still in HS who had such
experience and then to have been in VA before the last of the mills was
automated and to work w/ some old codgers down there...

There is a lot of stuff on the web, granted, but virtually everything
I've seen is new guys basically inventing on their own or copying
one-of-a-kind stick-by-stick techniques and almost all know nothing of
anything other than a router.

What I outlined turns it from doing a single rail/stile at a time into
making a set for at least a full door at a time if not for multiple doors.

I just finished last year the windows for the barn -- 20 of them suckers
4-lite each. 5/4x8 rough stock so did 4 bottom rails and 5 tops at a
time on the length/end cuts, 4 side rails and 7 muntins.

These are full length tenons w/ coping cut (stub cutter on shaper) so
one starts w/ the length, cut the base tenon w/ double-blade setup on
the TS w/ a tenon jig, then the coping cut. Follow w/ rip the stiles,
cut the mortises, then stick the inner edge.

The muntins are also cut to length in a piece of full-width stock and
the coping cut made across the end as described against the shaper
fence--since it's already square, there's nothing to deal with to keep
them that way. Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two
(again the TS fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and
sticks the other edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two
remaining outside edges and process repeats.

Far, far faster and especially more repeatable than cutting out a piece
at a time as every demo I've seen on the web would have you do...

--

On 12/13/2012 12:25 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6,...

And, if one thinks that all there is to be learned is on the web...

There was/is a whole industry of production woodworking _long_ before
internet was even imagined. There's a "veritable plethora" of
production techniques that were developed before fully automated 4-sided
shapers, etc., and mill shops were mostly handwork instead of CNC
programming.

I was fortunate to have had an instructor when still in HS who had such
experience and then to have been in VA before the last of the mills was
automated and to work w/ some old codgers down there...

There is a lot of stuff on the web, granted, but virtually everything
I've seen is new guys basically inventing on their own or copying
one-of-a-kind stick-by-stick techniques and almost all know nothing of
anything other than a router.

What I outlined turns it from doing a single rail/stile at a time into
making a set for at least a full door at a time if not for multiple doors.

I just finished last year the windows for the barn -- 20 of them suckers
4-lite each. 5/4x8 rough stock so did 4 bottom rails and 5 tops at a
time on the length/end cuts, 4 side rails and 7 muntins.

These are full length tenons w/ coping cut (stub cutter on shaper) so
one starts w/ the length, cut the base tenon w/ double-blade setup on
the TS w/ a tenon jig, then the coping cut. Follow w/ rip the stiles,
cut the mortises, then stick the inner edge.

The muntins are also cut to length in a piece of full-width stock and
the coping cut made across the end as described against the shaper
fence--since it's already square, there's nothing to deal with to keep
them that way. Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two
(again the TS fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and
sticks the other edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two
remaining outside edges and process repeats.

Far, far faster and especially more repeatable than cutting out a piece
at a time as every demo I've seen on the web would have you do...

+1

Take it to heart, OP!

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/12/2012 11:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 12/12/12 4:18 PM, dpb wrote:
...

2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6, all from different sources, offers that advice. Every
thing I've read says to use a sled or a push block to keep the rails
square with the fence.

I'm not saying that your suggestion doesn't have merit, I'm just saying
that I haven't come across a cabinet door building site - video, text or
PDF - that suggests that method.
...

You lookin' for how to do it quickly, weren't you? I'm tellin' ya'...

It's trivial; use scaling of cutting fewer individual pieces in more
detail.

I've been doing this for some 50 yr now...the "trick" was in the
original handout on making windows/doors/etc. that Delta/Rockwell used
to distribute (like up to the '60s into the '70s) w/ their shapers
reprinted from an industrial arts text...

If you don't plan ahead and have to have all the multiple sizes, do the
best you can to make as many sets of the same as you can at a given time
but even if it's only the top and bottom rails, cutting them at the same
time ensures they're the same length.

+1

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:


I have a related question. I have a Dewalt 2 1/4 HP router (Model
618) which will do 8000 RPM (and faster, of course).

Can I use it in a table with a 3" diameter bit to cut a "raised
panel" in Cherry wood? I only need to make 2-4 panels, so I hope
this is workable. I assume my "luck" will be better if I only cut
1/8" or less at a time. Is that about right?
----------------------------------------------------------
What is the MAX RPM spec'd by the bit mfg?

Shallow passes are the only way to go with a large bit.

Lew




Here in an example of what I was looking at:

http://www.precisionbits.com/yonico-...-set-ogee.html

On the safety and tips tab at the bottom, this note in general max
speeds of 8k-12K RMP for bits that are 2 1/2 -3 1/2 inches in diameter.

On 12/12/2012 11:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 12/12/12 4:18 PM, dpb wrote:
...

2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6, all from different sources, offers that advice. Every
thing I've read says to use a sled or a push block to keep the rails
square with the fence.

....

I've been doing this for some 50 yr now...the "trick" was in the
original handout on making windows/doors/etc. that Delta/Rockwell used
to distribute (like up to the '60s into the '70s) w/ their shapers
reprinted from an industrial arts text...

If you don't plan ahead and have to have all the multiple sizes, do the
best you can to make as many sets of the same as you can at a given time
but even if it's only the top and bottom rails, cutting them at the same
time ensures they're the same length.
....

One last comment...

Just 'cuz stuff isn't on the web doesn't mean much--it is very new
medium and very little if any that I've seen has anything other than a
single, one-at-a-time approach.

Years ago, industrial production before mill shops were CNC programming
and 4-sided shapers, they were manual operations such as this. In fact,
my old Rockwell/Delta Model 13 planer came from such a mill where they
had an array of 27 of them--9 rows of 3 w/ four operators for each row.
Roughly prepared stock came in and they were preset for three passes
to final thickness and then it went to a series of lines that worked
basically as I described. I got this one when they upgraded these to
18" and cut the lines from 9 to 5 in one of the first (somewhat feeble)
attempts to reduce manpower costs. That was in early 70s.

--

On Dec 13, 1:25*am, dpb wrote:
On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6,...

And, if one thinks that all there is to be learned is on the web...

There was/is a whole industry of production woodworking _long_ before
internet was even imagined. *There's a "veritable plethora" of
production techniques that were developed before fully automated 4-sided
shapers, etc., and mill shops were mostly handwork instead of CNC
programming.

I was fortunate to have had an instructor when still in HS who had such
experience and then to have been in VA before the last of the mills was
automated and to work w/ some old codgers down there...

There is a lot of stuff on the web, granted, but virtually everything
I've seen is new guys basically inventing on their own or copying
one-of-a-kind stick-by-stick techniques and almost all know nothing of
anything other than a router.

What I outlined turns it from doing a single rail/stile at a time into
making a set for at least a full door at a time if not for multiple doors..

I just finished last year the windows for the barn -- 20 of them suckers
4-lite each. *5/4x8 rough stock so did 4 bottom rails and 5 tops at a
time on the length/end cuts, 4 side rails and 7 muntins.

These are full length tenons w/ coping cut (stub cutter on shaper) so
one starts w/ the length, cut the base tenon w/ double-blade setup on
the TS w/ a tenon jig, then the coping cut. *Follow w/ rip the stiles,
cut the mortises, then stick the inner edge.

The muntins are also cut to length in a piece of full-width stock and
the coping cut made across the end as described against the shaper
fence--since it's already square, there's nothing to deal with to keep
them that way. *Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two
(again the TS fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and
sticks the other edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two
remaining outside edges and process repeats.

Far, far faster and especially more repeatable than cutting out a piece
at a time as every demo I've seen on the web would have you do...

--

OK, I'm learning and I appreciate the time you've spent explaining the
process.

I'm confused by some verbage...

"Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two (again the TS
fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and sticks the other
edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two remaining outside
edges and process repeats. "

I'm not getting that. I don't know what you mean by "sticks the two
outer edges, rips those two ..."

I guess I don't know what "sticks" means.

On 12/12/2012 7:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 12/12/12 4:18 PM, dpb wrote:

2 - What's the trick to ensure a perfectly square cope on the end
grain of the rails?

2) As said before, use stock wide enough for several rails and cut them
in one pass, then rip to width. Crosscut them square w/ the sled on the
TS first, then run them along the fence on the shaper/router table.

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6, all from different sources, offers that advice. Every
thing I've read says to use a sled or a push block to keep the rails
square with the fence.

He didn't say not to use a push block or a miter gauge/sled. He said
use wide stock, cut it square to begin with, and rip the wide stock to
size after coping. The push block is to cut down on end chipping, but
it's not really needed if ripping to size after coping.

I'm not saying that your suggestion doesn't have merit, I'm just saying
that I haven't come across a cabinet door building site - video, text or
PDF - that suggests that method.

What he said not only has merit, it's how it is done unless you've never
made cabinet doors.

Cut the slot w/ TS instead of router or if going to use a router get a
slotting cutter, not a standard 1/4' bit. You have to be sure it
matches your ply thickness correctly though; the undersized/metric stuff
is a royal pita...

If I'm using a rail and stile bit, why do I need to cut the slot on a
table saw or slot cutter? I only used the 1/4" bit because, as I said, I
don't have a rail and stile bit yet.

If you are using plywood, you need a slot cutter that suits the plywood,
and none of it is 1/4" anymore. If you are doing solid panels, you cut
the panels to suit the slot so it's a non-issue.

If you go to all the trouble of buying expensive cutters and making the
effort to cut cope and sticking, then plywood is pretty lame, and looks
like jr. high school shop, and raised panels are the way to go. Plywood
panels are OK for workshop/laundry cabinets but then coping is also not
a biggie. If you insist though, you can buy undersized slot cutters for
your cabinet set.

Again, make your sizes consistent to have only a couple or maybe three
different sizes overall and make the pieces in bulk.

That ain't gonna happen. I'm making doors for stick built cabinets so I
have to match what is already there. There's at least 5 different widths
and 6 different heights.

Doesn't matter, each door has at least two rails and two stiles. If you
cut one board that's wide enough for two the correct length, you are
guaranteed to have two perfectly matching pieces. If your doors are not
all the same because the openings are a bit off, then you would be best
off making overlay doors and still cutting all the doors the same.
Trying to install panels into a bunch of doors all different sizes would
suck. Even with inset doors, I think I would make them all to the
largest size opening, and trim each door to fit. I think it would be
easier to build new face frames that *are* the same size than custom fit
a slew of doors individually. Think overlay doors.

BTW, when building face frames, it is also wise to rip the stiles and
rails from correct length boards just as when building doors. This
helps insure all the door and drawer openings are the same, then making
doors and drawers is less traumatic.

BTW...just ran across this free router e-book. Lots of tip and techniques.

http://torbwine.com/ww/routerbook.htm

That's a good book, but seemed strange to have a router book on a wine
site? Here's a link to MCLS that sells cheap bits, and this is a good
reference and the bits available for rail and stile:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops...lstile0911.pdf

or more concisely:

http://tinyurl.com/b62x5s9

I never used any of their bits though, so I'm not saying they are good
or bad, but it's a nice reference anyway.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 12/13/2012 10:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:25 am, wrote:
....

I'm confused by some verbage...

"Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two (again the TS
fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and sticks the other
edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two remaining outside
edges and process repeats. "

I'm not getting that. I don't know what you mean by "sticks the two
outer edges, rips those two ..."

I guess I don't know what "sticks" means.

Old-timer verbiage for shaping the edge, sorry...muntins, rails and
stiles were often referred to as "sticks" as a generic catchall for the
pieces. Hence, shaping them was "sticking".

So, in this case for muntins (which are, as you know, quite narrow so
shaping them if rip to width first is a pretty tricky operation) if you
start w/ a wide piece of stock you can shape the two outside edges
easily. Then, set up the TS to rip them to width and you only have the
one second edge to shape a small piece on. Now your base stock is back
with two square edges so you still have a decent-sized block to work
with for two more operations. And, having coped the end of the blank
before starting, that operation is already done rather than having to do
it on each and every one. For the 4-lite windows there were three
sticks per each--one vertical and two horizontal. That would have been
60 pieces times two ends each as individuals whereas it was only six
pieces for the horizontals and four for the verticals doing them on the
8" blanks.

I've tried in the past to find the aforementioned Delta publication on
the web but have been unsuccessful and Delta doesn't have it any longer
as a supported part number (even before the abysmal downturn since the
P-C debacle wherein afaict they have no support whatsoever for older
equipment online ). Delta is now off my approved vendor list
entirely, sadly.

The copy I have on hand isn't very good any longer; I'll try to scan it
and see if it is even readable. If so, I'll try to post it to the OWWM
publications section...it's valuable and I've not seen anything on the
web that really addresses these kinds of small production issues at all.

I regret I no longer have the industrial arts text that I had in HS,
either--it wasn't great but was better than much I find now. I do not
know the text from which the Delta pub was taken, unfortunately, and it
doesn't say other than indirectly one can infer it was borrowed from
some publisher and the pictures reshot w/ Rockwell equipment and then
printed for them for their use. As noted, it used to be shipped w/ the
shapers routinely but like everything else when manufacturers start
penny-pinching bad things happen...

--

On 12/13/12 11:21 AM, Jack wrote:
If you go to all the trouble of buying expensive cutters and making the
effort to cut cope and sticking, then plywood is pretty lame, and looks
like jr. high school shop, and raised panels are the way to go. Plywood
panels are OK for workshop/laundry cabinets but then coping is also not
a biggie. If you insist though, you can buy undersized slot cutters for
your cabinet set.

Says who? Since when are shaker panels lame?
Have you seen the quartersawn book-matched veneer plywood panels that
are available, now? They are gorgeous and look better than most solid
joined panels I've seen.

I guess it's all a matter of taste, but I can't stomach those ugly oak,
raised panel cabinet doors that are in most kitchens. There's no
structural reason a panel has to be as thick as the door frame. I don't
know why that caught on but it's definitely a dated look.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/13/2012 9:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:25 am, dpb wrote:
On 12/12/2012 6:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

Well, I gotta admit that not one site I've visited, and I just went
through about 6,...

And, if one thinks that all there is to be learned is on the web...

There was/is a whole industry of production woodworking _long_ before
internet was even imagined. There's a "veritable plethora" of
production techniques that were developed before fully automated 4-sided
shapers, etc., and mill shops were mostly handwork instead of CNC
programming.

I was fortunate to have had an instructor when still in HS who had such
experience and then to have been in VA before the last of the mills was
automated and to work w/ some old codgers down there...

There is a lot of stuff on the web, granted, but virtually everything
I've seen is new guys basically inventing on their own or copying
one-of-a-kind stick-by-stick techniques and almost all know nothing of
anything other than a router.

What I outlined turns it from doing a single rail/stile at a time into
making a set for at least a full door at a time if not for multiple doors.

I just finished last year the windows for the barn -- 20 of them suckers
4-lite each. 5/4x8 rough stock so did 4 bottom rails and 5 tops at a
time on the length/end cuts, 4 side rails and 7 muntins.

These are full length tenons w/ coping cut (stub cutter on shaper) so
one starts w/ the length, cut the base tenon w/ double-blade setup on
the TS w/ a tenon jig, then the coping cut. Follow w/ rip the stiles,
cut the mortises, then stick the inner edge.

The muntins are also cut to length in a piece of full-width stock and
the coping cut made across the end as described against the shaper
fence--since it's already square, there's nothing to deal with to keep
them that way. Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two
(again the TS fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and
sticks the other edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two
remaining outside edges and process repeats.

Far, far faster and especially more repeatable than cutting out a piece
at a time as every demo I've seen on the web would have you do...

--

OK, I'm learning and I appreciate the time you've spent explaining the
process.

I'm confused by some verbage...

"Then one sticks the two outer edges, rips those two (again the TS
fence doesn't have to move as one continues) off and sticks the other
edge of each and then sticking is cut on the two remaining outside
edges and process repeats. "

I'm not getting that. I don't know what you mean by "sticks the two
outer edges, rips those two ..."

I guess I don't know what "sticks" means.


get a wide piece. put the correct profile on the 2 outside edges. rip
those pieces off resulting in a narrower piece. repeat until the piece
left is thinner than your target size.

On 12/13/2012 12:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Says who? Since when are shaker panels lame?

Have you seen the quartersawn book-matched veneer plywood panels that
are available, now? They are gorgeous and look better than most solid
joined panels I've seen.

Hell yeah ... I like my homemade humble plywood panel doors:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...20178785694354



--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/13/12 12:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/13/2012 12:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Says who? Since when are shaker panels lame?

Have you seen the quartersawn book-matched veneer plywood panels that
are available, now? They are gorgeous and look better than most solid
joined panels I've seen.

Hell yeah ... I like my homemade humble plywood panel doors:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...20178785694354





I'd like to see a closer look at the panels.
They look better than rotary cut ply.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:


I guess it's all a matter of taste, but I can't stomach those ugly
oak, raised panel cabinet doors that are in most kitchens. There's no
structural reason a panel has to be as thick as the door frame. I
don't know why that caught on but it's definitely a dated look.

Oh hell - that's simple -Mike-... it all began when someone said that it
looked good, did it themselves, and all of the minions fell in suit by
agreeing. Happens everyday on usenet. Even here...

--

-Mike-

On 12/13/2012 12:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/13/2012 12:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Says who? Since when are shaker panels lame?

....


Hell yeah ... I like my homemade humble plywood panel doors:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/
EWoodShopACCornerCabinet2007#5656820178785694354





I've commented before on the sideboard, Karl...I've got plans for
something very similar to replace the panels on the one builtin in the
dining room here at some point...at that point we'll remove the '80s
wainscot paneling and carpet and strip the wide woodwork back and go
back to the 1" T&G pine flooring as well...

--

"Bill" wrote:


Here in an example of what I was looking at:

http://www.precisionbits.com/yonico-...-set-ogee.html

On the safety and tips tab at the bottom, this note in general max
speeds of 8k-12K RMP for bits that are 2 1/2 -3 1/2 inches in
diameter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Looks like they have addressed the MAX RPM issue.

Lew

On 12/13/2012 12:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I'd like to see a closer look at the panels.
They look better than rotary cut ply.

ASCII and ye shall receive ... scooted my office chair around the corner
in the last five minutes and took these with my trusty iPhone, which
does NOT do them justice:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...11161198582786

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...11243965788130

I really need to get a good camera, but the damned phone is just too
convenient.

(I know, I know ... violated one of your pet peeves by not holding the
phone horizontal, but live with it)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/13/12 1:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/13/2012 12:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I'd like to see a closer look at the panels.
They look better than rotary cut ply.

ASCII and ye shall receive ... scooted my office chair around the corner
in the last five minutes and took these with my trusty iPhone, which
does NOT do them justice:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...11161198582786


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...11243965788130


Yes, that appears to be the stuff I'm talking about. It looks like
joined boards... and it matches much better than just about every mass
produced raised panel I've ever seen. Take luck out of the equation, and
none of them would match.



I really need to get a good camera, but the damned phone is just too
convenient.

Tell me about it.
The camera on my phone is better quality than any stand-alone camera
we've ever bought.



(I know, I know ... violated one of your pet peeves by not holding the
phone horizontal, but live with it)


No, no, grandpa. That's for video. Take your stills however you want--
whatever best frames the subject. Most people don't realize that their
phones shoot video in 16:9 aspect ratio, HD. Then they get ****ed at
their phones for taking such a "skinny video." :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/13/2012 1:33 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
No, no, grandpa.

LMFAO ... but you're right, I am that.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:


Here in an example of what I was looking at:

http://www.precisionbits.com/yonico-...-set-ogee.html

On the safety and tips tab at the bottom, this note in general max
speeds of 8k-12K RMP for bits that are 2 1/2 -3 1/2 inches in
diameter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Harbor Freight has one of "Warrier" brand. I'm not sure there is a
couple of steps of quality between them. %-)


Looks like they have addressed the MAX RPM issue.

Lew

Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:


Here in an example of what I was looking at:

http://www.precisionbits.com/yonico-...-set-ogee.html

On the safety and tips tab at the bottom, this note in general max
speeds of 8k-12K RMP for bits that are 2 1/2 -3 1/2 inches in
diameter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Harbor Freight has one of "Warrier" brand. I'm not sure there is a
couple of steps of quality between them. %-)

And... from your vast experience, you would certainly know that...

--

-Mike-

-MIKE- wrote:


(I know, I know ... violated one of your pet peeves by not holding
the phone horizontal, but live with it)


Mike - you've obviously bought some pretty cheap cameras! Both of our cell
phones take great pictures, but they do not in any way stack up to our
digital camera.


--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:


Here in an example of what I was looking at:

http://www.precisionbits.com/yonico-...-set-ogee.html

On the safety and tips tab at the bottom, this note in general max
speeds of 8k-12K RMP for bits that are 2 1/2 -3 1/2 inches in
diameter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Harbor Freight has one of "Warrier" brand. I'm not sure there is a
couple of steps of quality between them. %-)

And... from your vast experience, you would certainly know that...


Absolutely not. Are you poking fun at my lack of experience again? From
my lack of experience, I don't have much of a baseline (I rely on
reading reviews and similar).

They both cost about $50 (for 3-piece set). Have you tried those from
Harbor Freight? I may take that route since they are close by, if
you'll pardon the pun. At this point I only need 2 cabinets--and, as it
is, I need to come up with a router table! My name is Bill, but they
don't call me C-Note. : )

Fun quote: His vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever…

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:


Here in an example of what I was looking at:

http://www.precisionbits.com/yonico-...-set-ogee.html

On the safety and tips tab at the bottom, this note in general max
speeds of 8k-12K RMP for bits that are 2 1/2 -3 1/2 inches in
diameter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Harbor Freight has one of "Warrier" brand. I'm not sure there is a
couple of steps of quality between them. %-)

And... from your vast experience, you would certainly know that...


Absolutely not. Are you poking fun at my lack of experience again?
From my lack of experience, I don't have much of a baseline (I rely on
reading reviews and similar).

No Bill - as I have said before, I am not poking fun at your lack of
experience. I am suggesting though that based on your lack of experience
you should reconsider making comments that you are not qualified to make.
Even specfulative comments, since you do not have the basis for that
speculation.


They both cost about $50 (for 3-piece set). Have you tried those from
Harbor Freight? I may take that route since they are close by, if
you'll pardon the pun. At this point I only need 2 cabinets--and, as
it is, I need to come up with a router table! My name is Bill, but
they don't call me C-Note. : )

Yes - I have tried the ones from Harbor Freight. They worked. Does that
not make your unfounded "caution" seem all the more foolish?

I think it is great when you inquire (to a point...) about things you are
trying to learn about. It's a whole different matter when you try to sound
like you have some advise to offer, having done none of the work at hand.

--

-Mike-

"Bill" wrote:
They both cost about $50 (for 3-piece set).
------------------------------------------------
Save your money.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:
They both cost about $50 (for 3-piece set).
------------------------------------------------
Save your money.


Bull****! I recieved the Harbor Freight cutteras as a gift, and they work
just fine. I probably would not try to use them in a production kitchen
environment, but they are not intended to be used in that manner, nor do
most of the posters here look for that kind of application.

More of Lew's "expertise"...

--

-Mike-

On 12/13/12 2:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:


(I know, I know ... violated one of your pet peeves by not holding
the phone horizontal, but live with it)


Mike - you've obviously bought some pretty cheap cameras! Both of our cell
phones take great pictures, but they do not in any way stack up to our
digital camera.


Yes, we have.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I have this set from Infinity (Chamfer 91-504)
http://www.infinitytools.com/Rail-St...products/1040/
I don't think I even chucked them up.

I would sell them for $70 shipped.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Harbor Freight has one of "Warrier" brand. I'm not sure there is a
couple of steps of quality between them. %-)


I think it is great when you inquire (to a point...) about things you are
trying to learn about. It's a whole different matter when you try to sound
like you have some advise to offer, having done none of the work at hand.



Perhaps I should have written: I'm not sure there is *room for* a couple
of steps of quality between them. Do have some sort of newbe
signature, or something, I can add to all of my posts?

On Dec 13, 12:21*pm, Jack wrote:
On 12/12/2012 7:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On 12/12/12 4:18 PM, dpb wrote:

....snip...


Again, make your sizes consistent to have only a couple or maybe three
different sizes overall and make the pieces in bulk.

That ain't gonna happen. I'm making doors for stick built cabinets so I
have to match what is already there. There's at least 5 different widths
and 6 different heights.

Doesn't matter, each door has at least two rails and two stiles. If you
cut one board that's wide enough for two the correct length, you are
guaranteed to have two perfectly matching pieces. *If your doors are not
all the same because the openings are a bit off, then you would be best
off making overlay doors and still cutting all the doors the same.

I wasn't saying that I wasn't going to use his suggested process
because my doors are different sizes, I was saying that I can't make
"only a couple or three different sizes" because I have at least 11
very different sizes of openings. The uppers on the left of the sink
are all one size - 3 doors, all left hinged with a space between each
door. On the right of the sink, there are 2 right hinged doors that
are a different width than the 3 on the left.

At a right angle to them is a pair of center opening doors that are a
different width again. Then there's the short door above the tall door
making up a floor floor to ceiling unit. Then there's a different
sized (height and width) single tall door.

Same situation with the base cabinets - 9 doors, 5 different widths, 2
different heights.

Trying to install panels into a bunch of doors all different sizes would
suck. Even with inset doors, I think I would make them all to the
largest size opening, and trim each door to fit. *I think it would be
easier to build new face frames that *are* the same size than custom fit
a slew of doors individually. *Think overlay doors.

That's a fine idea, but just not practical in my case. It's not really
custom fitting each door individually, it's just the way the stick
built cabinets are laid out. The openings aren't just a "bit off"
they're totally different sizes based on the design.

There are a couple of sets of 2 and 3 that match, but there are a
number a single sizes also. That's just how it is.


BTW, when building face frames, it is also wise to rip the stiles and
rails from correct length boards just as when building doors. *This
helps insure all the door and drawer openings are the same, then making
doors and drawers is less traumatic.

BTW...just ran across this free router e-book. Lots of tip and techniques.
http://torbwine.com/ww/routerbook.htm

That's a good book, but seemed strange to have a router book on a wine
site? *Here's a link to MCLS that sells cheap bits, and this is a good
reference and the bits available for rail and stile:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops...marthtml/graph...

Thanks for the link.


or more concisely:

http://tinyurl.com/b62x5s9

I never used any of their bits though, so I'm not saying they are good
or bad, but it's a nice reference anyway.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com

On 12/13/2012 1:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/13/12 11:21 AM, Jack wrote:
If you go to all the trouble of buying expensive cutters and making the
effort to cut cope and sticking, then plywood is pretty lame, and looks
like jr. high school shop, and raised panels are the way to go. Plywood
panels are OK for workshop/laundry cabinets but then coping is also not
a biggie. If you insist though, you can buy undersized slot cutters for
your cabinet set.

Says who? Since when are shaker panels lame?

Lame might have been a tad strong, but I said it, and I think it. I'm
not a fan of anything Shaker, or Mission for that matter. It all looks
like grade school shop class to me.

Have you seen the quartersawn book-matched veneer plywood panels that
are available, now? They are gorgeous and look better than most solid
joined panels I've seen.

I rarely see flat panels that I like in doors. Have you seen book
matched solid wood raised panel doors? There a million styles, all
better than flat ply panel.

I guess it's all a matter of taste, but I can't stomach those ugly oak,
raised panel cabinet doors that are in most kitchens.

I like them, but as you said, it's a matter of taste. I just built a
four door four drawer shop cabinet this week that has plywood panel
doors, shaker stile... Yuck! Flat plywood panels are quick and dirty
imo. I thought a while before going with the plywood, and did it mainly
because I had the material on hand, but still had to keep telling myself
it's just for a shop.

I've noticed on TV white painted wood is back in style, I still like
wood, but admit 40 years ago I liked dark wood, and today like lighter
stuff. I doubt I'll ever like plywood flat panels in doors other than
laundry or shop, nor shaker stuff, nor mission stuff. Taste differs for
sure.

There's no
structural reason a panel has to be as thick as the door frame. I don't
know why that caught on but it's definitely a dated look.

Structurally, plywood panels are the way to go, period. Solid wood
raised panels are for looks only. If you prefer the looks of flat
plywood panels, you are in luck, they are super simple to make, cheaper
and structurally superior to solid wood panels.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Looks like Harbor Freight bits would be a couple of steps up in
quality
compared to these bits.

Harbor Freight has one of "Warrier" brand. I'm not sure there is
a couple of steps of quality between them. %-)


I think it is great when you inquire (to a point...) about things
you are trying to learn about. It's a whole different matter when
you try to sound like you have some advise to offer, having done
none of the work at hand.


Perhaps I should have written: I'm not sure there is *room for* a
couple of steps of quality between them. Do have some sort of newbe
signature, or something, I can add to all of my posts?

Na - no newbie signature required. "Bill" looks kinda good all by itself.

--

-Mike-