Swingman wrote:


IIRC, I started the unfortunate rabbit trail discussion with this
remark yesterday, specifically stating the incremental strategy:

No, not really Karl. My comments were really more centered around what I
had said - that I found it hard to believe that the average Joe needed that
kind of storage/backup. I have acknowledged that I did not consider some
things that are common today, but all the same held my ground that a lot of
the "need" for terabyte backup is not really a need for that amount of
backup. I also acknowledged that when storage is that cheap, the discussion
becomes kind of moot. It's easier to just do a full than to do incrementals
since the cost of storage has become so cheap.

-
--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


IIRC, I started the unfortunate rabbit trail discussion with this
remark yesterday, specifically stating the incremental strategy:

No, not really Karl. My comments were really more centered around
what I had said - that I found it hard to believe that the average
Joe needed that kind of storage/backup. I have acknowledged that I
did not consider some things that are common today, but all the same
held my ground that a lot of the "need" for terabyte backup is not
really a need for that amount of backup. I also acknowledged that
when storage is that cheap, the discussion becomes kind of moot. It's
easier to just do a full than to do incrementals since the cost
of storage has become so cheap.
-

BTW Karl - saying all that to say that I don't think you headed this down
any rabit trail.

--

-Mike-

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

That's not a whole lot of time... Let's see... 8 seasons at 22 episodes
each is 176 hours.

I tend to archive stuff in case they decide to take a show off the air for
a long time again. Some shows aren't worth buying DVDs of, but they are
nice to watch on occasion.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 4/20/2012 12:07 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

That's not a whole lot of time... Let's see... 8 seasons at 22 episodes
each is 176 hours.

I tend to archive stuff in case they decide to take a show off the air for
a long time again. Some shows aren't worth buying DVDs of, but they are
nice to watch on occasion.

Puckdropper

Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
watch any thing more than once, other than

O'Brother where art thou.
Second Hand Lyons
Worlds Fastest Indian

Not saying you are wrong ant all! I just don't put much faith in a HD
to keep thing I want to keep.

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 06:30:23 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
watch any thing more than once, other than

I did that for awhile, but came to the conclusion that it was a waste
of time and money to burn a DVD. Rarely, did I ever watch that DVD
again and I had to deal with the sorting and storage of a whole pile
of DVD's.

It was much easier just to leave a show or a movie on the hard drive.
If I decided that I'd never watch it again, DELETE and it's gone. The
operative word here is ~ convenience.

On 4/20/2012 7:27 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 06:30:23 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
watch any thing more than once, other than

I did that for awhile, but came to the conclusion that it was a waste
of time and money to burn a DVD. Rarely, did I ever watch that DVD
again and I had to deal with the sorting and storage of a whole pile
of DVD's.

It was much easier just to leave a show or a movie on the hard drive.
If I decided that I'd never watch it again, DELETE and it's gone. The
operative word here is ~ convenience.

The problem I have with leaving them on the DVR is that I have had
Direct TV and Uverse. If the unit has a problem, you get an exchange
unit and you loose every thing. How many times did I get an exchange
with with Direct TV. at least 4 times in the first 2 years and once so
far in the first year with Uverse.

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 07:46:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
The problem I have with leaving them on the DVR is that I have had
Direct TV and Uverse. If the unit has a problem, you get an exchange
unit and you lose every thing.

Yes, I've had the DVR drive die on me a have lost all the TV shows I
had on it. But, in this case, it's movies I'm talking about and those
I keep backed on one of those terabyte drives on my computer. When I
want to watch something, it's just a matter of streaming it to the TV.

On 4/20/2012 6:30 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/20/2012 12:07 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

That's not a whole lot of time... Let's see... 8 seasons at 22 episodes
each is 176 hours.

I tend to archive stuff in case they decide to take a show off the air
for
a long time again. Some shows aren't worth buying DVDs of, but they are
nice to watch on occasion.

Puckdropper

Yeah but IMHO a HD is not a permanent storage solution. I would burn
them if I really wanted to keep them and I typically do not want to
watch any thing more than once, other than

O'Brother where art thou.
Second Hand Lyons
Worlds Fastest Indian

Not saying you are wrong ant all! I just don't put much faith in a HD to
keep thing I want to keep.

Neither is optical disk storage a permanent solution.

Having transferred a few hundred recording project source files, as well
required corporate data for a couple of companies, onto various
recording media down through the years, I personally don't much faith in
long term optical disk storage either.

The life expectancy of optical media is both unknown and, as some have
said, "unknowable", and, as a result, is not relied upon by any industry
I'm aware of for archival purposes, particularly when it comes to
government mandated required corporate record keeping.

I'm still of the opinion that a combination of media gives gives me a
better chance to backup and archive precious data, which is one of the
reasons why I incorporated the "cloud" storage option (Carbonite AND Box
in my case), which gives me that all important "offsite" capability (at
a reasonable price), as well as still incorporating local backups.

I still have studio project files stored on 40 or so hard drives of
various sizes, and probably 300-400 storage DVD's, as well as hundreds
of boxes of master tapes ... none of which will probably stand the test
of time when all is said and done.

(The infamous Ampex 456 "sticky shed" has already taken it toll in the
last ten years on many masters).

Then there is the fact that technology advances often leaves "retrieval"
of your data hanging out to dry ... still have some of those old eight
track tapes?

Good luck in finding a machine to play on.

Digital archival is an expensive, and not necessarily robust, problem if
you have a lot of it.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 4/19/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In articleqsKdneyOAO099w3SnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews. com
writes:

A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
shrinking in its expectations as we speak.

Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
floppy disk storage in very short order.

I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
I've heard, I will find that a bit small.



Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

I wonder about those numbers, since analog TV at "high" quality
takes about 1.5GB/hour on my box. The references I can find say a
500GB expansion drive adds about 60 hours in HD. (Of course, numbers
depend on the quality that the provider is actually delivering.
I've heard lots of complaints about HD shows on allegedly HD channels
being delivered in SD by some cable companies.)

My wife and I have fallen into a "what do you feel like" pattern,
rather than a "what do we have" pattern. One result of that is we
have a tendency to let most of a season record before we get around
to wathing some shows. I think we had 12 episodes of "Once Upon a
Time," for example.

So I like to have lots of extra space in case we go a while without
watching much.

I've also started recording some shows only to later realizs I have
8-10 episodes and never find I'm in the mood for the show. Slack
space is good for that. I get a little nervous when Deleted Items
drops below 40 hours.

--
Drew Lawson | Though it's just a memory,
| some memories last forever

On 4/20/2012 8:22 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In articlejo2dnUb8kPG2Lg3SnZ2dnUVZ5qOdnZ2d@giganews. com
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 4/19/2012 3:56 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In articleqsKdneyOAO099w3SnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews. com
writes:

A Terabyte is, despite protestations to the contrary hereabouts,
shrinking in its expectations as we speak.

Just the upcoming TV paradigm revolution is going to make a TB seem like
floppy disk storage in very short order.

I am still on analog cable service. When I switch on the digital,
I'll be adding terabyte expansion drives to my TiVos. From what
I've heard, I will find that a bit small.



Good goley How many Tivo recordings to you want to keep??? My 120 gig
DVR records 60 hours IIRC in HD.

I wonder about those numbers, since analog TV at "high" quality
takes about 1.5GB/hour on my box. The references I can find say a
500GB expansion drive adds about 60 hours in HD. (Of course, numbers
depend on the quality that the provider is actually delivering.

This seems to be a good indication, but it is still not up-to-date with
record to audio, IMO:


https://wikis.utexas.edu/display/com...e+Requirements


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article
"Mike Marlow" writes:
Swingman wrote:
On 4/19/2012 8:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Your comments and the comments of a few others did reveal something.
I had not considered such things as DVR's and the likes earlier. Or
any other media related storage for that matter. A good backup
strategy however, would still benefit those environments and reduce
the amount of backup required, since one only needs to back up
dynamic data on a regular schedule, and not all of the static data.

"Incremental backups" have been standard backup strategy since before
xcopy was introduced.

Correct - but people here have been talking about backing up a (near)
terabyte of data, which has also been explained to be fairly static data.
Implied - no incremental backup strategy.

Maybe.

The stuff that I have mirrored to several systems is largely static.
But the backup process is incremental. I run rsync to handle it,
and it determines what has changed and only transfers those files.
Yet the various mirrors are full backups/copies.

Of course, this only protects me against media failure. If I damage
a file, the bad version will go out to all the machines and replace
the good. From time to time, I burn dated copies to disk, but not
as often as I probably should.

--
Drew Lawson And I know there's more to the story
I know I need to see more
I need to see s'more, hear s'more
feel s'more. I gotta be s'more

In article
Swingman writes:
On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.

My data is not important enough to matter ... yet.

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.


--
Drew Lawson
"Please understand that we are considerably less interested
in you than you are."
-- Madeleine Page, on the deep truths of alt.folklore.urban

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The problem I have with leaving them on the DVR is that I have had
Direct TV and Uverse. If the unit has a problem, you get an exchange
unit and you loose every thing. How many times did I get an exchange
with with Direct TV. at least 4 times in the first 2 years and once so
far in the first year with Uverse.

My DVR is a computer running a Linux version of MythTV. When it all
works, it's great. If you have a problem, well you better be familiar
with Linux. If you really screw up, the files are stored in standard MPG
format and you can pull the files off to another device and start over.

No device failures to report in years of using it, until the capture card
analog input went bad. (I had only had it for 8 years or so, 4 in daily
service.)

As with everything, though, there's good and bad. One big negative is
most set top boxes don't make it easy to change the channel via computer.
Remote control (IR remote) requires special hardware, but a good capture
card should provide an interface.

I find the irony interesting... My DirecTV box tries hard to remind me it
is a computer, while my computer tries hard to make me forget that it is.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

lid (Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmrq1h$1eq7$2
@raid.furrfu.com:

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.



I promise not to open "password.txt"! (But maybe if it happens to be under
the mouse pointer when I accidentally double click, well I cannot stop that
right?) ;-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

In article m
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com writes:
(Drew Lawson) wrote in news:jmrq1h$1eq7$2
:

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.



I promise not to open "password.txt"!

I actually made that mistake many tears ago.

I had a "in case something bad happens" document written up, and I
put in the superuser password. Sure enough, the machine got hacked
and then severely compromised. Had to wipe the whole thing.

That was my first system in the Internet Era.

--
Drew Lawson | Broke my mind
| Had no spare
|

Drew Lawson wrote:

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.

So here, the conversation takes a slightly different twist. I'm a huge
advocate of the cloud, but at the same time this very real concern just
continues to haunt thouse thoughts. Today more than ever, we can watch the
turnover or failure of companies in record time. Makes it very difficult to
place trust.

--

-Mike-

On 4/20/2012 1:06 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Drew Lawson wrote:

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.

So here, the conversation takes a slightly different twist. I'm a huge
advocate of the cloud, but at the same time this very real concern just
continues to haunt thouse thoughts. Today more than ever, we can watch the
turnover or failure of companies in record time. Makes it very difficult to
place trust.

After yesterday I am more against the cloud than I was before. I was
mowing the yard and because of the lack of rain I worked in the cloud
most of the day


The dust cloud that is.

On 4/20/2012 8:58 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In
writes:
On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.

My data is not important enough to matter ... yet.

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.



If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
a new back up somewhere else.

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:49:36 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
a new back up somewhere else.

I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
progresses.

Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
fares.

In article
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 4/20/2012 8:58 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In
writes:
On 4/19/2012 10:18 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

I don't do cloud. I'm not that trusting. No on else gets my data.

My data is not important enough to matter ... yet.

There are tiny pieces that I don't want anyone breaking into.
But there are also large chunks that I don't want lost. I don't
trust companies not to go out of business. Too many have done so
very suddenly.


If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
a new back up somewhere else.

Sure, if nothing goes wrong.

Say your backups were on megaupload, and your disk failed the week
that the Feds seized them?

I prefer to stick with things that I believe are reliable.
I could be wrong, of course, but I have to apply my judgement somewhere.

--
Drew Lawson | And to those who lack the courage
| And say it's dangerous to try
| Well they just don't know
| That love eternal will not be denied

On 4/20/2012 8:58 PM, Dave wrote:

I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
progresses.

Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
fares.

On 4/20/2012 9:24 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Say your backups were on megaupload, and your disk failed the week
that the Feds seized them?

I prefer to stick with things that I believe are reliable.
I could be wrong, of course, but I have to apply my judgement somewhere.


Like I've said (more than a few times) ... Carbonite is just ONE part of
my comprehensive plan ... only a damned fool puts all his eggs in one
basket.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/20/2012 8:58 PM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:49:36 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
If the company goes out of business, your backup quits working
immediately just like if your back up HD fails. Then you simply create
a new back up somewhere else.

I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
progresses.

Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
fares.

Carbonite has been around a "relative" long time..

When Swingman showed me how simple it was and the fact that I have tried
so many home back methods it was a welcome method. And there is no
limit to how much you can back up.

On 4/20/2012 10:36 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/20/2012 8:58 PM, Dave wrote:

I appreciate that you and Swingman are using Carbonate for your
backups. For the time being, I'll stick with my back up hard drives
and watch for a little while to see how this cloud phenomenon
progresses.

Not that I expect it to disappear at any point, but businesses can and
do disappear all the time. I'll be watching to see how Carbonite
fares.

On 4/20/2012 9:24 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Say your backups were on megaupload, and your disk failed the week
that the Feds seized them?

I prefer to stick with things that I believe are reliable.
I could be wrong, of course, but I have to apply my judgement somewhere.


Like I've said (more than a few times) ... Carbonite is just ONE part of
my comprehensive plan ... only a damned fool puts all his eggs in one
basket.


Yeah, I am still letting Windows7 do it's back up on an external HD but
that will be my last resort location for retrieval as I am not
absolutely sure I could find any thing on it. LOL