A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
said I could.

Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
laminated base 12" long.

Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).

I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
dimensioned drawing! ; ) I Guess I should count my blessings, a year
ago, I would have had to say I didn't have a drill press. But honestly,
I'm still able think up my own projects fast enough, TYVM! : )

Bill wrote:
A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
said I could.

Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
laminated base 12" long.

Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).

I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
dimensioned drawing! ; )

Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
skills!

--

-Mike-

"__ Bøb __" wrote:


On 2/21/2012 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
said I could.

Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
laminated base 12" long.

Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).

I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
dimensioned drawing! ; )

Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
skills!



What did you expect ???

I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the
dowels, but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a
good way to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school
gym teacher)!

Bill wrote:


I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!


You have a long way to go Bill. This person has neither the knowledge nor
the capability, and you expect them to deliver you the materials? Not gonna
happen. Your three holes would probably have turned into a 20 post thread
here, so the 10 minute thought is moot anyway. Just go get the materials
and show your wife and her friend how cool you and your new drill press
really are. Hell - enjoy that thing now that you own it!


On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed for your
materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do not elect.


Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the
dowels, but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a
good way to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the
"socket"? This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for
the school gym teacher)!

Bill - just try it!!!!!!! You will learn more by just tryingt things than
by going back to the usual asking 1,000 questions mode. You're a smart
guy - just try some things. You'll figure the simple stuff out. Best of
luck to ya!

--

-Mike-

"Bill" wrote

Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly even
be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the dowels, but
I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a good way to make
up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school gym
teacher)!

If you want a good hole to fit a dowel in, don't use a spade bit. Unless
you don't care about appearance and fit. Invest in a good forstner bit.
That combined with a drill press will allow a good hole.

No dowel is completely round. If the wood is hard enough, you can force a
dowel into it. If the dowel is hard and the wood is soft, the dowel can
eventually break the wood. If you want the best fir, drill a hole slightly
smaller than the dowel. Then trim the dowel to fit. Use some good glue and
make sure everything is snug and fitted before the glue dries.

I don't know how pretty this has to be. But I used to work with an old
timer who used to use dowels extensively. And since he was so cheap
(frugal?) he would use old broom handles. It was amazing what he built with
those old broom handles. Interestingly enough, a lot of broom handles were
more round and consistent than the dowels available at the lumber yard.
That may be different now. But back then, the broom stick dowels ruled! And
they fit the holes drilled well too.

I remember once he was building a bed and he dowelled the head board to the
bed with dowels. I protested that it would not look right with painted
dowels and stained wood. He handed me the cut pieces of broom stick and
told me to sand off the paint. I did and the bed went together and looked
great.

I must of seen him use a couple hundred dowels like this. Almost all of
them from the fabled broom stick stock.

Remember, to make a good hole, use a good bit. Get a small file and/or a
diamond home to keep the edge of the bit sharp. And keep your good bits
hidden away so folks can't come in and "borrow" it. Keep the bit sharp and
dry. You jobs will go much better with sharp tooling.

Another common practice is to charge for the tool needed to do the job. Buy
the bit and charge it to him. Just let him know that you need a good bit to
do the job properly. Another common practice for dowel construction is to
drill the hole in some scrap stock and bring it to the lumber yard. Make
sure the dowels fit the hole properly.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed for your
materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do not elect.

No, somehow they worked out that I was building it for "free", but that
my materials cost will be reimbursed.



Question:

Bill - just try it!!!!!!! You will learn more by just tryingt things than
by going back to the usual asking 1,000 questions mode. You're a smart
guy - just try some things. You'll figure the simple stuff out. Best of
luck to ya!

Thanks, I'm sure this project won't be too hard. But it would be easier,
or I might be able to get cleaner cuts, if I had a TS. Yes, I will
improvise. Hell, I can envision a jig to cut a 1" dowel with a CS. Now
where did I learn that? "Free", &*#%!

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed
for your materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do
not elect.

No, somehow they worked out that I was building it for "free", but
that my materials cost will be reimbursed.

Free is fine - whether that is at the beginner level like yourself or at the
advanced level like some of the others here. Hell - I still paint projects
for people for free and I can command $40K for a restoration. Nothing wrong
with free. The bigger problem is when we begin to feel that we are worth
something and that we must get paid for what we do. Hell - take it on,
enjoy the project, learn from it, build your tool inventory, and feel good
about it when it's done. This is not a contract to build a bedroom suite.
Don't let yourself get ahead of yourself Bill. Just take it on and enjoy
the work, and learn from it.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good
friend of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Why in the world would that be insulting to you Bill? It's standard
practice for a simple pay for service practice. You get reimbursed
for your materials and add whatever labor charge you elect - or do
not elect.

No, somehow they worked out that I was building it for "free", but
that my materials cost will be reimbursed.

Free is fine -... Just take it on and enjoy
the work, and learn from it.

Yes, I will. I have painting to do and lighting to install when it
warms up! I'm not genuinely complaining, I just thought it was a mildly
amusing story.

Lee Michaels wrote:

If you want a good hole to fit a dowel in, don't use a spade bit.


Lots of great tips in your post! Thank you very much!!

Bill

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:04:05 -0500, Bill wrote:


A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
said I could.

Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
laminated base 12" long.

Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).

I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
dimensioned drawing! ; ) I Guess I should count my blessings, a year
ago, I would have had to say I didn't have a drill press. But honestly,
I'm still able think up my own projects fast enough, TYVM! : )

Congrats, Swingy. You have now officially entered the Architectural
HoneyDo List stage of life. Next is the City Permit phase, so be glad
you're where you are.

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:04:05 -0500, Bill wrote:


A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
said I could.

Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
laminated base 12" long.

Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).

I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
dimensioned drawing! ; ) I Guess I should count my blessings, a year
ago, I would have had to say I didn't have a drill press. But honestly,
I'm still able think up my own projects fast enough, TYVM! : )

Oops, change "Swingy" in my reply to "Bill".
Thank you.

The Management.

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

Lee Michaels wrote:

No dowel is completely round. If the wood is hard enough, you can force
a dowel into it. If the dowel is hard and the wood is soft, the dowel
can eventually break the wood. If you want the best fir, drill a hole
slightly smaller than the dowel. Then trim the dowel to fit. Use some
good glue and make sure everything is snug and fitted before the glue
dries.


My guess is that Red Oak is a better choice than Poplar (those appear to
be my only choices in 1" dowels) that aren't broomstick handles! It
should stand up to abuse better, correct?

A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
see whether that is in the budget.

Bill wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote:

No dowel is completely round. If the wood is hard enough, you can
force a dowel into it. If the dowel is hard and the wood is soft,
the dowel can eventually break the wood. If you want the best fir,
drill a hole slightly smaller than the dowel. Then trim the dowel to
fit. Use some good glue and make sure everything is snug and fitted
before the glue dries.


My guess is that Red Oak is a better choice than Poplar (those appear
to be my only choices in 1" dowels) that aren't broomstick handles! It
should stand up to abuse better, correct?

A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
see whether that is in the budget.

Go to Harbor Freight.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote

A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
see whether that is in the budget.

Go to Harbor Freight.

I'm going now! I'm at $76.99 in supplies and materials (Red Oak),
including the drill bit above, and I'd like to reduce that!

On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:
"__ Bøb __" wrote:


On 2/21/2012 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
A few days ago my wife asked me if I had a drill press and if I could
drill some holes for some 1" dowels for a friend. I said I did and I
said I could.

Then today, she brings home a dimensioned drawing of cricket "goal
posts": Each consisting of three 1" dowels, 18" long, glued into a
laminated base 12" long.

Of course, the friend will pay for whatever materials I need (I guess
I'm supposed to go shop for the materials).

I don't mind helping--it's for a school teacher, it just surprised me
how quickly things progressed from "do I have a drill press?" to a
dimensioned drawing! ; )

Get used to it Bill. Wait until you get more tools, and develop more
skills!



What did you expect ???

I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)


Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the dowels,
but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a good way
to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school
gym teacher)!

Some one inch dowels are as likely to be over as under 1"

On 2/21/2012 9:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


I expected receipt of a board, into which I was going to drill 3
holes--a 10 minute project including cleanup!


You have a long way to go Bill. This person has neither the knowledge nor
the capability, and you expect them to deliver you the materials? Not gonna
happen. Your three holes would probably have turned into a 20 post thread
here, so the 10 minute thought is moot anyway. Just go get the materials
and show your wife and her friend how cool you and your new drill press
really are. Hell - enjoy that thing now that you own it!


Totally agree, you want to control what materials will be used. I once
had scrap wood delivered that had all kinds of debris embedded in the
surface.

Bill wrote in :

*snip*


A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
see whether that is in the budget.

Got a Lowe's around? (You probably do.) They've got a Porter Cable
Forstner set for $20 that includes a 1" bit. It's a pretty decent kit,
especially considering the price.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon wrote:
On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)


Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".

It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).

Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one! sniffle"? : )

Have fun!
Bill

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:10:06 -0500, Bill wrote:

My guess is that Red Oak is a better choice than Poplar (those appear to
be my only choices in 1" dowels) that aren't broomstick handles! It
should stand up to abuse better, correct?

Bill, take your calipers with you and go someplace like Woodcraft, not a
lumber yard. I needed some 1.25" dowels a short time ago. I found some
maple that was 0.002" undersize. I could have just been lucky, but I
tested several more than I needed and they were all in that range.

Should you wind up with a slightly loose fit, use epoxy instead of wood
glue and it'll fill the gaps.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in :

*snip*


A Dewalt 1" drill bit (DW1629) is about $30. I will have to checkand
see whether that is in the budget.

Got a Lowe's around? (You probably do.) They've got a Porter Cable
Forstner set for $20 that includes a 1" bit. It's a pretty decent kit,
especially considering the price.

Puckdropper

Thank you for the tip! I suspect a Forstner bit may not leave as good of
a glueing surface as a twist drill, but maybe good enough. I'm not sure.
I have no experience using Forstner bits, and I'm only guessing.
Surely a lot better than a spade bit, which was my first alternative
choice!

The Porter-Cable set sounds like it would be a nice set to have. TYVM!

Bill

"Bill" offered up this bit of pseudo woodworking wisdom

Thank you for the tip! I suspect a Forstner bit may not leave as good of a
glueing surface as a twist drill, but maybe good enough. I'm not sure. I
have no experience using Forstner bits, and I'm only guessing.
Surely a lot better than a spade bit, which was my first alternative
choice!

Bill, Bill, Billlll...., Deep breath now. Forstner bits are DESIGNED to
cut wood. That is their purpose in life. To cut holes that have a crisp,
sharp edge to them. Something that looks goods and performs well. Twist
drills, on the other hand, are designed to cut metal. And then they only do
a good job is sharp and are drilled with sufficient power, stability, etc.
Notice I said SHARP. Most twist drills are not sharp. You can use a twist
drill to drill wood. And if the wood is not too soft, you can probably get
away with it. But is not the optimal cutting tool for the job. And you
won't have a flat bottom, thereby weakening the glue joint.

Besides, it may be difficult to drill a good hole with a 1 inch twist drill.
I remember working with metal and needing to drill some large holes. I
ended up going to hole saws and squirting lots of cutting fluid on the
process. The bigger the hole, the more problems. Even in a drill press.
In fact, drilling holes above a certain size are dangerous unless performed
in a drill press.

There is a reason why I mentioned getting a forstner bit. It is because
that is what is used for this kind of thing. And if you were going to use
such a bit on metal, your drill press probably doesn't have a speed slow
enough to use it. And you chuck may not be big enough to even put the thing
into the drill press.

Buy a forstner bit. Use it. You need a set of a few common sizes any way.
You will the only person I ever talked to who got a drill press and did not
bother to buy some bits for it. Doncha know?? Big power tools are the
gateway drug. First you buy the tool, then...

Common strategy on this sort of thing is to buy an economical set. Then buy
good ones of the ones that you use most often. And remember to get
something to dress up the edges to keep this thing sharp. It only works
well if it has something of an edge on it.

If you don't do this, you work will suffer. You went to a lot of time and
trouble to buy that drill press and mount it on its custom base. What is
your excuse for not using it properly? (Or buying it presents?) And
regardless of your wife's perspective, if you do lousy work, everybody will
be ****ed off at you. And we will think of you as a woodworking WIMP. ;-)

Man up, buy the damn bits, get on with your life.

/end of rant

On 2/22/2012 2:26 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)


Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".


as usual, you're overthinking this. it's for a gym class. it's not fine
woodworking and won't sit on anyone's mantel for a keepsake.

2x6 piece of pine lumber
pine dowels
1" forstner bit from harbor fright
a couple dabs of wood glue
a bit of white paint for a finish

you could build this for under $15, including the bit, and would take
about 10 minutes.

Lee Michaels wrote:


"Bill" offered up this bit of pseudo woodworking wisdom

Thank you for the tip! I suspect a Forstner bit may not leave as good
of a glueing surface as a twist drill, but maybe good enough. I'm not
sure. I have no experience using Forstner bits, and I'm only guessing.
Surely a lot better than a spade bit, which was my first alternative
choice!

Bill, Bill, Billlll...., Deep breath now. Forstner bits are DESIGNED to
cut wood. That is their purpose in life. To cut holes that have a crisp,
sharp edge to them. Something that looks goods and performs well. Twist
drills, on the other hand, are designed to cut metal.

snip

OKAY, TYVM! Lesson appreciated!!! : )


Buy a forstner bit. Use it. You need a set of a few common sizes any
way. You will the only person I ever talked to who got a drill press and
did not bother to buy some bits for it. Doncha know?? Big power tools
are the gateway drug. First you buy the tool, then...

FWIW, I DID buy a set of 5 decent (made in Germany) Brad-point bits
(1/4" to 5/8"). Those were supposedt to be the "greatest thing since
sliced bread" the last time the subject of drill bits came up. How do
the B-P's compare with the Forstner's???



Common strategy on this sort of thing is to buy an economical set. Then
buy good ones of the ones that you use most often. And remember to get
something to dress up the edges to keep this thing sharp. It only works
well if it has something of an edge on it.

If you don't do this, you work will suffer. You went to a lot of time
and trouble to buy that drill press and mount it on its custom base.
What is your excuse for not using it properly? (Or buying it presents?)

Yes, I should find my L-V catalog, and buy lots of presents! : )

I still need a TS too. Don't worry, I have lot of projects going! : )


And regardless of your wife's perspective, if you do lousy work,
everybody will be ****ed off at you. And we will think of you as a
woodworking WIMP. ;-)

Man up, buy the damn bits, get on with your life.

/end of rant

On 2/22/2012 3:26 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)


Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".


Good on you, Bill! I'm proud of you, Bubba!

No matter how much it hurts, _never_ _ever_ undersell yourself, and
particularly the value that you, personally, bring to the job at hand.

And, it doesn't hurt to repeat that, out loud, as often as you can get
away with. LOL!

Hint: next time pad that initial bid a bit, but indicate a willingness
to discuss a final price based on a modification in the work you spec'ed
in the bid.

If that fails, your next statement is always THE question:

"What did you have in mind for a budget for this job?"

You can take it, or leave it, from there in any number of ways.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

For what it's worth, I have picked up a few tools over the years by
explaining to my wife that in order to do what she wants I have to have a
certain tool. My wife taught elementary school for close to 30 years and
all the projects that she, and some of the other teachers, wanted me to do
allowed me to add to my tool collection. And I got to play around in my
workshop. And the other teachers really envied that my wife had such a
talented husband. :-) And my wife was delighted and happy. And life was
good.

Ralph


"Bill" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)


Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to work).
But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking with her
so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".

It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think I
need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21, Issue
122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice uniform
bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a reasonable
result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the dowels to
uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a good-old,
old-fashioned hand saw).

Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander. Comments
about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it seems like it
would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one! sniffle"? : )

Have fun!
Bill

Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:

On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:


On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.


Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)



Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".

It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).

Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one! sniffle"? : )

Have fun!
Bill

Thought your OP was funny.

I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of
hand. Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment
to be serious?).

It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could
just cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge
in to anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in.
Brush/spray with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids ) and
done. Probably could use scrap wood for most of it.

Just my opinion
Mike

In article , Bill wrote:

Question: I expect I'll use a 1" spade bit. However, I'm guessing a 1"
dowel is likely to be smaller than 1". A 7/8" spade bit may possibly
even be a better fit. I guess I'll know for sure after I see the
dowels, but I'll still listen to any voices of experience. Is there a
good way to make up for a gap if a dowel is a loose fit in the "socket"?
This thing will be knocked over on concrete often (it's for the school
gym teacher)!

Not sure I'd call it a "good way" but I've had some luck with wrapping a
plane shaving around a loose fitting dowel. Be sure to test the fit in
a scrap before drilling the project.


--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Mike,

I suspect the "customer" would be delighted with most anything as long as it
wasn't much more than she thought she was going to have to spend to begin
with.

But I think that instead of getting dowels I would get some straight 2x4,
which I would cut down to 1x1, and using a router table, make my own dowels.
Of course I'd have to pick up a router, router table, and 1/2" roundover
bit, to do it but what the hey, if it makes the wife happy I'm willing to
sacrifice . . .

And a piece of 2x12 would make a nice sturdy base but I'd want to resaw it
to 1" which would require I get that bandsaw I was looking at . . .

And, of course, I'd need to plane down the 1x12 to make it look nice . . .
dang, I guess I do need a planer too!

Ralph


"Michael Joel" wrote in message
m...
Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:

On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:


On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.


Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)



Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to work).
But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking with her
so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".

It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a good-old,
old-fashioned hand saw).

Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander. Comments
about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it seems like it
would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one! sniffle"? : )

Have fun!
Bill

Thought your OP was funny.

I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of hand.
Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment to be
serious?).

It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could just
cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge in to
anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in. Brush/spray
with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids ) and done. Probably
could use scrap wood for most of it.

Just my opinion
Mike

Bill wrote:

Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
site):
http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/


Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the work.

I did not realize this thing had to be so large. The cost of the materials
is what it is, so there's nothing you can do about that. Did they spec Red
Oak? I have not priced Red Oak around here lately, but the price on your
sheet kind of shocked me - seemed quite high to me.



--

-Mike-

Michael Joel wrote:

I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of
hand. Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment
to be serious?).

It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could
just cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge
in to anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in.
Brush/spray with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids ) and
done. Probably could use scrap wood for most of it.

Just my opinion
Mike


Yes, I recognize(d) that it is overdone. I went in accordance with the
basic design given to me (that I did Not Request). I would suggest a
different design (2by-lumber) that I think makes more sense (ordinary
plywood irritates me physically until it out-gasses). So far, my wife
is is not interested in discussing a different design.

Concerning the moment where my wife asked, "Do you have a drill press?",
the smart answer is evidently, "No". : )

Maybe I'll put something together at my leisure. When I promised to
deliver by a certain date, which I felt necessary to do as I was
requesting a down payment, it became "work".

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:26:45 -0500, Bill wrote:

Leon wrote:
On 2/21/2012 9:34 PM, Bill wrote:

On her drawing she wrote for me to "save my receipts" (for
reimbursement). That almost feels insulting, but this is a good friend
of my wife's so I'll do a decent job. I know she meant well.

Won't you need to fill up your vehicle before going after materials?
Save you receipts! ;~)


Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

And I left it on the counter for my wife to see (and maybe take to
work). But instead she wrote ***Nevermind*** on it, and, after talking
with her so far, she has a not so very understanding attitude about it.
My wife said she was thinking maybe $25 total, and so far, I'm the "bad
guy".

Of course you're the bad guy. You want to make a whopping $22.01 for
only half a day's work, you ripoff. (Using the lady's full real name
on the group, viewable worldwide, was probaly not the best idea in the
world. QUICK, change the name of the file.)


It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).

No table or band saw? They'd be my first choice tools.


Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one! sniffle"? : )

Go for it!

--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
site):
http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/


Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the work.

You'll note that "what I charged for the work"--$22, is less than the
cost of the drill bit. Don't mistake me for someone really wants to do
this job--I've already had enough of it! ; )


I did not realize this thing had to be so large. The cost of the materials
is what it is, so there's nothing you can do about that. Did they spec Red
Oak? I have not priced Red Oak around here lately, but the price on your
sheet kind of shocked me - seemed quite high to me.

I thought it was high too, but I got my prices from Lowes.com. The 1"
dowels at Lowes.com were either Popar or Red Oak, so I made my choice
and followed from there. I could build a "solution" for less than $15
just like everyone else. When I was in my midteens, I build a 6'
"box-hockey" game that folded in half. It was enjoyed by lots of my
neighborhood friends for a summer. It didn't have a lot of
"craftsmanship", but it was fun to play. Heres the basic layout:

------------------------------------------|
| || |
| || |
| |
| || | |
|| |
| || |

| || |
| || |
| || |
| |
| || | |
|| |
------------------------------------------|

You sit on yer butt to play. Each player got a hockeystick-shaped
paddle and took turns hitting the
"puck" toward the oppponents goal. Players take turns and if getting
through a middle opening, get another turn. First to a specified number
of goals (7, 11, 15?) wins. There was a small bit of wagering. Of
course, you can fight about whether the puck makes it through or not.
And the "faceoff", off the center of the 3" high middle part, is sort of
dramatic: 1 and-a ::click:: 2 and-a ::click:: 3 and-a ::click:: GO!! : )

Larry Jaques wrote:

Of course you're the bad guy. You want to make a whopping $22.01 for
only half a day's work, you ripoff. (Using the lady's full real name
on the group, viewable worldwide, was probaly not the best idea in the
world. QUICK, change the name of the file.)

"Cricket" is the name of the game.



It occurred to me that a disk/belt sander might be very helpful. I think
I need one of those things! In the new issue of Shop Notes (Vol. 21,
Issue 122, p. 7), they show to use a disk sander and jig to put a nice
uniform bevel on the top of a dowel. I assume the sander would leave a
reasonable result on the end grain and surely it will help me to get the
dowels to uniform length (lacking a TS, I would saw them with a
good-old, old-fashioned hand saw).

No table or band saw? They'd be my first choice tools.

Yes, I have a band saw. I don't mind hand-sawing either.
The choice would not matter if I had a disk sander! : )



Grizzly comes to mind as a place to look for a disk/belt sander.
Comments about such a tool are welcome. I've never used one, but it
seems like it would be a great tool for "taking off corners" and such.
Can I tell my wife that "I'm the only one on the newsgroup that doesn't
already have one!sniffle"? : )

Go for it!

Okay, you practically talked me into it! Which one would you get?

This looks like a "starter model":
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Comb...t-6-Disc/G0547

This thing might be barely up to the task of working even a 1" dowel!?

On 2/22/2012 7:09 PM, Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

Well, last night I prepared the following "bid" (pdf file on my web
site):
http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/


Well - I don't believe you should be charging for the drill bit Bill.
Owning or purchasing the necessary tools is just part of providing the
work.

You'll note that "what I charged for the work"--$22, is less than the
cost of the drill bit. Don't mistake me for someone really wants to do
this job--I've already had enough of it! ; )


I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.

If I need a specific drill bit to do the work, it will most likely be
charged for accounting purposes as a direct cost to the specific job for
which it was necessary, rather than as an indirect cost, such as
supplies, and charged as overhead.

IME, you need to be careful how you handle these details ... that's
where the devil is.

YMMV ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/22/2012 5:38 PM, Bill wrote:
Michael Joel wrote:

I think as it went (as usual in newsgroups/forums) things got out of
hand. Maybe I didn't get all the jokes (maybe most of it was never ment
to be serious?).

It is a school item. A good thick plywood base with 3 dowels driven into
holes cut with a twist bit. It doesn't even need to be glued - could
just cut a slit in the dowels drive them into the holes and put a wedge
in to anchor - then when it breaks it is easy to put a new dowel in.
Brush/spray with a good enamel (make it colorful for the kids ) and
done. Probably could use scrap wood for most of it.

Just my opinion
Mike


Yes, I recognize(d) that it is overdone. I went in accordance with the
basic design given to me (that I did Not Request). I would suggest a
different design (2by-lumber) that I think makes more sense (ordinary
plywood irritates me physically until it out-gasses). So far, my wife is
is not interested in discussing a different design.

Concerning the moment where my wife asked, "Do you have a drill press?",
the smart answer is evidently, "No". : )

Maybe I'll put something together at my leisure.


Good idea - something basic and simple, then give it to your wife as a
"peace offering" - no charge to the school (make sure it's understood
this is a one-time deal).

Swingman wrote:


I agree with you ... if you want to make a living in this business,
obviously the cost of your tools need to be paid out the work.

Well, yeah... to a point. Common tools and/or equipment is part of the
investment that gets amortized over many jobs. Bill's charging full
reimbursement for a common bit that would normally be expected to be within
the arsenal of someone charging for the work at hand. If this were more of
a specialty tool, I could see charging for it.

Then again there is the practice of charging for a bottle of glue, when the
project itself will only consume less than 1% of that bottle. In this
case - a small matter since the price is low, but in principle it's not a
good pricing strategy.

This fall squarely into the area of personal opinion, but my belief is that
you build your minimum required tool inventory out of your labor charges. I
guess what I am saying is that unless the tool is something outside of the
normal expected tools for a particular task, I believe that if you are going
to charge for labor on work then you better be prepared to deliver that work
and that includes having the capability to do it - both skill and equipment.
We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe Bill
would be better served to capture a small percentage of his cost for the bit
as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to pony up the rest out of
his pocket, or find more work to pay off that bit.


If I need a specific drill bit to do the work, it will most likely be
charged for accounting purposes as a direct cost to the specific job
for which it was necessary, rather than as an indirect cost, such as
supplies, and charged as overhead.

That makes sense from an accounting standpoint.


IME, you need to be careful how you handle these details ... that's
where the devil is.


Yup.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:

We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe Bill
would be better served to capture a small percentage of his cost for the bit
as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to pony up the rest out of
his pocket, or find more work to pay off that bit.

Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone who
wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take it,
upon delivery!

Bill listed that drill bit right up there at the top of the bid since he
previously mentioned to his agent that he DID NOT HAVE the necessary
drill bit (and except for this project, really has little need for one).
Agent and customer had "no clue" what such a bit cost, but agent was
informed by Bill earlier that they might be around $30.

Agent proceeded to bring home a detailed plan from "customer" anyway.

"Bid" was created by Bill, and rejected by the agent, who appears to
have been fuming over it all day. Bill can't provide a "Walmart-Like"
price on the project, according to the specifications provided by the
customer, and his agent is not happy with this.

The smartest thing Bill thinks he did was get my "bid" rejected before
the project really started. The group discussed this sort of thing last
summer, or so. Getting a "down payment" in advance is a very good way
to make sure there is a "meeting of the minds"! Some folks mistake
being upfront about money as some sort of evil. You don't want them as
your business agents! Don't wait until delivery to talk about money
because you'll only get $25, because any other figure "sounds like alot".

This experience reinforced some good lessons, at least for me. Please
don't forget about earning your free gift (mentioned at the top).

Cheers!

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:

We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe Bill
would be better served to capture a small percentage of his cost for the bit
as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to pony up the rest out of
his pocket, or find more work to pay off that bit.

Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone who
wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take it, upon delivery!

Bill listed that drill bit right up there at the top of the bid since he
previously mentioned to his agent that he DID NOT HAVE the necessary
drill bit (and except for this project, really has little need for one).
Agent and customer had "no clue" what such a bit cost, but agent was
informed by Bill earlier that they might be around $30.

Agent proceeded to bring home a detailed plan from "customer" anyway.

"Bid" was created by Bill, and rejected by the agent, who appears to have
been fuming over it all day. Bill can't provide a "Walmart-Like" price
on the project, according to the specifications provided by the customer,
and his agent is not happy with this.

The smartest thing Bill thinks he did was get my "bid" rejected before
the project really started. The group discussed this sort of thing last
summer, or so. Getting a "down payment" in advance is a very good way to
make sure there is a "meeting of the minds"! Some folks mistake being
upfront about money as some sort of evil. You don't want them as your
business agents! Don't wait until delivery to talk about money because
you'll only get $25, because any other figure "sounds like alot".

This experience reinforced some good lessons, at least for me. Please
don't forget about earning your free gift (mentioned at the top).

Cheers!

Too funny ...

--
www.ewoodshop.com

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:

We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe
Bill would be better served to capture a small percentage of his
cost for the bit as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to
pony up the rest out of his pocket, or find more work to pay off
that bit.

Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone
who wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take
it, upon delivery!


Hey Bill - if you really do not and did not want this job - why didn't you
just say "No"? Your subject line in this thread even implies you were
somewhat thrilled at this invitation.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:

We might be saying the same thing in different ways, but I believe
Bill would be better served to capture a small percentage of his
cost for the bit as overhead, and expect that he'll either need to
pony up the rest out of his pocket, or find more work to pay off
that bit.

Bill has not been fighting for this job since the beginning. Anyone
who wants it can have it. Bill will even sent you a gift if you take
it, upon delivery!


Hey Bill - if you really do not and did not want this job - why didn't you
just say "No"?

Cause my agent wanted to do a favor for her friend--I mean customer.
So far, I haven't even been thanked by the agent for so carefully
writing up a bid. ; )

Your subject line in this thread even implies you were
somewhat thrilled at this invitation.

Whatever I typed, I was never thrilled. The most fun I had with it was
thinking about how I could use a disc sander on it. The business aspect
of it was not wasted on me either. I haven't had much experience
being on the seller-side in recent years.

What sort of projects are you working on Mike?