These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...5&rid=22301377



--
--

On Nov 30, 1:43*pm, "Lobby Dosser" wrote:
These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...tors-blog/subm...

--
--

"The US Consumer Products Safety Commission is considering new safety
regulations for table saws, based on a petition asking for a
requirement that table saws should be equipped with a device to reduce
or prevent injuries."

Gosh, I wonder what company could have filed that petition?

I actually love my Sawstop but I have heard the guy behind it is a
lawyer (and a jerk) and part of the reason nobody licensed his
technology was he was to greedy. Oh well, he got my money. P.S. I have
not met him or have any personal knowledge os his ahole-ness just
passing along what I heard.

On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...5&rid=22301377




This is a lawyer law. Safety regulation should be based on facts.

How many fingers have been cut of per year per table saw in the last 100
years of their existence.

I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society
repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put
it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency stop.

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

"knuttle" wrote in message ...

On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...5&rid=22301377




This is a lawyer law. Safety regulation should be based on facts.

How many fingers have been cut of per year per table saw in the last 100
years of their existence.

I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society
repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put
it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency stop.

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Germans were hesitant to issue parachutes to their pilots because they
thought that if pilots had a way out, they wouldn't try to save the plane.
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

On Nov 30, 5:56*pm, knuttle wrote:
On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote: These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...tors-blog/subm...

This is a lawyer law. *Safety regulation should be based on facts.

How many fingers have been cut of per year per table saw in the last 100
years of their existence.

I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society
repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put
it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency *stop.

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

Very bad logic. Fingers on the floor vs a few hun extra for the saw;
no question it is a super deal. It just shouldn't be forced on anyone.
Liberty or the freedom to choose I am all for it so people like you
can be weeded out via the Darwin principal.

knuttle wrote:
On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

When I worked for the Exploration and Production laboratories of Shell Oil,
we had a pretty loose consideration of safety rules, relying mostly on
common sense. Then we got a new Vice President, recently reassigned from
Shell's other lab on the west coast. He was absolutely nutty about safety.

He implemented a rule that all gas bottles had to be chained to the wall!

Sure enough, a fellow pushing a cart with two dewars of liquid nitrogen
passed a stack of gas bottles, the same stack he had passed every day for
years.

He hit the stack with his cart.

Even though the bottles were chained, he knocked one bottle of nitrogen
loose. It fell and knocked off the valve. Like a torpedo, it went through
the wall and into the parking lot.

Safety rules vs. being alert. Which to choose? Let me think...

On 12/1/2011 2:13 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society
repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put
it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency stop.

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

Very bad logic. Fingers on the floor vs a few hun extra for the saw;
no question it is a super deal. It just shouldn't be forced on anyone.
Liberty or the freedom to choose I am all for it so people like you
can be weeded out via the Darwin principal.

I've been using table saws for 50+ years with absolutely no safety
devices at all. No riving knife, splitters, blade covers or
anti-kickback device. I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous.
Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. I'm certainly
not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their
tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people
weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks
gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on.

I will say after all these years, I'm now thinking because my brain is
not always in gear, now would be a good time to think about quitting, or
buying a saw stop thing-ee.

As it is, I'd rather cut off my arm than give that freaking lawyer a
dime of my money.

Two things come to mind when talking about this stuff. One was a video
of a guy cutting wood shingles on a 20" saw spinning in his face as his
hands pushed logs as fast as he could though the blade. Most dangerous
thing I recall anyone doing on purpose. The other was my BIL cutting
shims out of a hand held 6" 2x4 with the biggest, heaviest CS I'd ever
used. When I warned him he could cut off a fing-ee, he just looked and
laughed at me. He only had been doing it for a living for 50 years...

I wonder how long it will take Darwin to weed us out?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

.. *I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous.
Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. *I'm certainly
not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their
tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people
weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks
gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com

Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti-
kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about
a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive
placed back in in a few seconds.

Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from
machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven
carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes.

Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders.

Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch?
Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade
and climbing?
Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

On 12/2/2011 1:47 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

Not sufficiently stupid enough to have ever even considered getting in
the position to do that.

AAMOF, unless I'm missing something, damned hard to even imagine
*anyone* being that stupid?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

Never.

--

-Mike-

In article 9fb90cd1-2354-4f2f-bd26-
, says...

. *I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous.
Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. *I'm certainly
not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their
tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people
weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks
gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com

Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti-
kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about
a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive
placed back in in a few seconds.

Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from
machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven
carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes.

Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders.

Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch?
Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade
and climbing?
Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

"All this stuff" is just fine. The problem isn't with "the stuff, it's
with it being forced upon us by the government.

"All this stuff" is just fine. *The problem isn't with "the stuff, it's
with it being forced upon us by the government.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with you that the gubment shouldn't force it on anyone.

On Dec 2, 2:32*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2011 1:47 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

Not sufficiently stupid enough to have ever even considered getting in
the position to do that.

AAMOF, unless I'm missing something, damned hard to even imagine
*anyone* being that stupid?

I see it all the time is production shops when some guy has been
pushing the same part for an hour or more. They just get lazy and are
trying to move fast and the brainless moment causes damage.

I think assuming you will never make a momentary mistake vs having
equipment in place that makes it impossible to screw up is a mistake
in itself.

Nuff said. You aren't asking to use my saw so we won't ever have an
issue.

On 12/2/2011 2:47 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
. I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous.
Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. I'm certainly
not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their
tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people
weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks
gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com

Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti-
kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about
a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive
placed back in in a few seconds.

Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from
machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven
carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes.

Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders.

I always thought "neanders" meant guys using hand tools, i.e.
pre-electric? I love power tools, and generally don't like doing things
by hand that can be done with power. I firmly believe that guys like
Norm, and a billion other woodworkers, do not remove their blade guards
for better TV viewing, but like me, an unnecessary nuisance. Same with
ear muffs (except for my shop vac) Eye protection is a good idea.

I would not recommend anyone not take every safety precaution known to
man, but I would rather live "on the edge" I don't climb mountains, I
cut wood...

Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch?

Nope, never once. I rarely, close to never, have had kickbacks, and the
few I had never came near hitting me anywhere.

Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade
and climbing?

Yes, more than a couple.

Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

Nope, never once. I know it only takes once but I have always had a
healthy respect for the dangers of this stuff. Not afraid, but not "not
afraid" either. I will admit as I grow older, my eyesight, reactions
and "sharpness" ain't what they were, and likely not going to get
better. I could see me some day forgetting to turn off my saw, and
taking a nap on the spinning blade... Saw stop will not be there to
save me, but save me from what I don't know. For now, my 50 years
experience is my protector, long as I remember where I am, and what
exactly I'm up to:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

*For now, my 50 years
experience is my protector, long as I remember where I am, and what
exactly I'm up to:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds like you generally have the right approach to safety. I have
just gotten into the habit of using every safety feature I can stand
and it hasn't been such a nuisance.

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:47:37 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:

. *I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous.
Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. *I'm certainly
not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their
tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people
weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks
gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com

Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti-
kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about
a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive
placed back in in a few seconds.

Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from
machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven
carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes.

Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders.

Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch?

No but I had a piece exit stage left when using a RAS. I stand to the side.

Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade
and climbing?

On a RAS, yes. Scary thing, that!

Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the
blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock?

Never. My hands don't go behind the blade until it's stopped.

I did cut my finger a few weeks back, though. ...on the miter slot. I don't
think Gass' invention would have helped. Maybe I can get him to force the
CSPC to chamfer them more. Nah, no money there.

"Morgans" wrote in
:

You know, I found that guards on a table saw are not usually much of a
problem. It took me a year or so to come to that realization.

I like all the others, never used a guard on my table saw. Then I
took a job teaching carpentry at a high school. A special point was
made by my bosses, that I was to always use guards and all other safe
equipment on my shop machines. I hated it for a while. Now I don't
give a guard a second though.

-- Jim in NC


One of the things I remember about the shop table saw was that the guard
wasn't bad. It didn't seem to get in the way, and didn't take much
pressure to get it to lift so the board can slide under. However, that
was many years ago and I only had a little experience with it.

Home shop tools seem to suffer from "good enough for the money" design.
I've noticed with my Ridgid saw blade guard that the plastic is heavy, it
tends to get in the way of my view of the fence, the kickback pawls are
too far away from the blade for safe trimming rip cuts (cutting a wavy
edge off to square up the board), the guard has to be aligned behind the
blade perfectly or it'll put pressure on the piece, and a few other
issues.

The table saw industry has redesigned the guard and it does address many
of the issues I've noted above. I haven't used the new guard to say if
it really works or not, but I suspect it's a step up.

The best safety features are transparent until they have to be activated.
If you can forget they're there, they'll work well.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 04 Dec 2011 07:24:48 GMT, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

"Morgans" wrote in
:

You know, I found that guards on a table saw are not usually much of a
problem. It took me a year or so to come to that realization.

I like all the others, never used a guard on my table saw. Then I
took a job teaching carpentry at a high school. A special point was
made by my bosses, that I was to always use guards and all other safe
equipment on my shop machines. I hated it for a while. Now I don't
give a guard a second though.

-- Jim in NC


One of the things I remember about the shop table saw was that the guard
wasn't bad. It didn't seem to get in the way, and didn't take much
pressure to get it to lift so the board can slide under. However, that
was many years ago and I only had a little experience with it.

The problem isn't that they interfere when used for the cuts they're designed
for, rather that they're a PITA to remove for operations where they *can't* be
used (dado, for instance). The factory guard on my Unisaur is rarely on (I've
since bought a Biesemeyer splitter, which can be easily removed - still no
"guard").

Home shop tools seem to suffer from "good enough for the money" design.
I've noticed with my Ridgid saw blade guard that the plastic is heavy, it
tends to get in the way of my view of the fence, the kickback pawls are
too far away from the blade for safe trimming rip cuts (cutting a wavy
edge off to square up the board), the guard has to be aligned behind the
blade perfectly or it'll put pressure on the piece, and a few other
issues.

The table saw industry has redesigned the guard and it does address many
of the issues I've noted above. I haven't used the new guard to say if
it really works or not, but I suspect it's a step up.

Guards, at least the one's I've seen, are fine, IFF they're used.
Manufacturers don't seem to be too worried about making them easy to use (so
they will be).

The best safety features are transparent until they have to be activated.
If you can forget they're there, they'll work well.

Making something "foolproof" only guarantees a better class of fools.

On 12/3/2011 8:07 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I did cut my finger a few weeks back, though. ...on the miter slot. I don't
think Gass' invention would have helped. Maybe I can get him to force the
CSPC to chamfer them more. Nah, no money there.

I don't know, it would not be possible to cut yourself on my 60 year old
saws miter slot. Unless your saw is older than mine, this means the
technology to chamfer slots has been out there a while. My guess is you
should have sued them to death for:

Ignoring available technology to make a buck.

Loss of blood, causing your body to work harder for no reason

Taking an unnecessary risk of death due to blood poisoning

Embarrassment resulting from cutting yerself on a miter slot.

About 900 other stupid ass things lawyers could come up with to make it
worth their while.

--
Jack
99% of Lawyers give the rest a bad name...
http://jbstein.com

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:15:37 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 12/3/2011 8:07 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I did cut my finger a few weeks back, though. ...on the miter slot. I don't
think Gass' invention would have helped. Maybe I can get him to force the
CSPC to chamfer them more. Nah, no money there.

I don't know, it would not be possible to cut yourself on my 60 year old
saws miter slot. Unless your saw is older than mine, this means the
technology to chamfer slots has been out there a while. My guess is you
should have sued them to death for:

Ignoring available technology to make a buck.

Loss of blood, causing your body to work harder for no reason

Taking an unnecessary risk of death due to blood poisoning

Embarrassment resulting from cutting yerself on a miter slot.

About 900 other stupid ass things lawyers could come up with to make it
worth their while.

;-)

It's three years old. Did Gass patent chamfering too? Maybe that's why it
isn't.

In article , knuttle
wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers,
collisions increased for just that reason.

--
Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com

On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In , knuttle
wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers,
collisions increased for just that reason.

And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or
respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile
because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL,
see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at
80mph.

I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My
own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and
put on the brakes at the last possible moment.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Swingman" wrote

And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect
for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they
were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL...

As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive.
I was always safety conscious. I can not imagine what would have happened
if I wasn't. Nothing like a near death experience to get the safety
religion.

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:28:24 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In , knuttle
wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers,
collisions increased for just that reason.

And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or
respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile
because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL,
see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at
80mph.

The problem with today's drivers is that most of them can't even
steer, let alone DRIVE a vehicle. I believe in mandatory emergency
(or performance) driving courses and mandatory gun handling courses
for every citizen. We'd eliminate a lot of our vehicular deaths and
maimings plus reduce the number of criminals if we'd face that. People
wouldn't be afraid of guns or cars nearly as much as they are now.


I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My
own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and
put on the brakes at the last possible moment.

Soccer Moms are second, followed by hormonal male teenagers.

Today's tidbit of wisdom:
The definition of a jerk is "someone driving slower than you are."
The definition of a maniac is "someone driving faster than you."

--
Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice.
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

On 12/4/2011 12:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In , knuttle
wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers,
collisions increased for just that reason.

And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for
the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never
taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL, see no problem with driving five
feet behind the car in front of them at 80mph.

I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My own
daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and put on the
brakes at the last possible moment.

But the real question is, once she gets there does she wait for the stop sign
to turn green, then with no real idea whose TURN it is, negotiates using
mysterious visual cues with the other drivers to see who's going to take the
initiative? "Right of way" - what's that? :-)

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

In article , Swingman
wrote:

I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch.

Ah yes, the triple S's...

Skirt on a cellphone in a Sunfire. See them spun out in ditches
everywhere, all winter long.

--
Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:56:04 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:



"Swingman" wrote

And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect
for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they
were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL...

As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive.
I was always safety conscious. I can not imagine what would have happened
if I wasn't. Nothing like a near death experience to get the safety
religion.

I was doing about 75 in a rural area, half crocked, when my master
cylinder bypassed. After the third time my foot hit the floor with
the pedal under it, I dropped into third, then second, then missed my
turn. I had to go over a deep swale where the other road was a
straighter shot than the 70 degree turn I had wanted. Just before I
hit the swale, I popped the wheel to the left, then quickly right, and
shoved the tail over a foot and a half to the left, aiming at the hole
between two lines of parked cars. I bounced over it and stayed between
the cars until it slowed down a bit. I think I hit that 15mph bump at
at least 45. Thank Crom for the Javelin's strong rear leafs, but it
bottomed those out.

Even ****faced, I pulled it out where a typical driver would have
t-boned a car or rolled it into a house. Some skills and a whole lot
of luck.

Luckily, I sobered up not too long after that, and sobriety has lasted
27+ years now.

--
Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice.
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
b.com...


As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive.
================================================== ==================
You'd like my Ranger. To apply the E-brake, you have to stick your left knee
in your ear to get your foot high enough.

"CW" wrote in message
m...


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
b.com...


As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I
can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I
drive.
================================================== ==================
You'd like my Ranger. To apply the E-brake, you have to stick your left
knee in your ear to get your foot high enough.



I resemble that! Got in it one time after my wife had driven it and the damn
e-brake was on. Took a while to figure what was wrong as it never occurred
to me that somebody could set the damn thing.

--
--

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 18:27:12 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"CW" wrote in message
om...


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
b.com...


As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I
can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I
drive.
================================================== ==================
You'd like my Ranger. To apply the E-brake, you have to stick your left
knee in your ear to get your foot high enough.



I resemble that! Got in it one time after my wife had driven it and the damn
e-brake was on. Took a while to figure what was wrong as it never occurred
to me that somebody could set the damn thing.

'Tis a foolish person who does not know the operation of and USES the
emergency brake on a daily basis.

--
Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice.
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:00:50 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:

The problem with today's drivers is that most of them can't even steer,
let alone DRIVE a vehicle.

Amen to that.

I'm old enough to remember when teenage boys were the most reckless
drivers, but that appears to have been only because most teenage girls
back then didn't drive.

And quite a few of those boys (myself included) were good enough drivers
to get out of most of the situations our overactive hormones got us into.

I've learned the hard way to keep my mouth shut when my wife is driving,
and she's a lot better than most.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

In article 041220111218435309%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone. ca,
Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , knuttle
wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers,
collisions increased for just that reason.

--
Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com

More likely any increase in accidents was due to lack of training. People
using ABS for the first time often thought there was a brake system
defect when they experienced the pedal pulsation the ABS causes when it
is active and let up on the brakes. And people who were trained to
pump the brakes in poor traction continued to do so with ABS, resulting
in reduction inn braking performance.




--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

In article ,
CW wrote:


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
eb.com...


As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive.
================================================= ===================
You'd like my Ranger. To apply the E-brake, you have to stick your left knee
in your ear to get your foot high enough.



There's a good reason all manufacturers officially refer to them as PARKING
brakes rather than EMERGENCY brakes. They are better than no brakes in
an emergency, but (varying with different vehicles) not by much.


--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

"CW" wrote in message
m...


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
b.com...


As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I
can
relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I
drive.
================================================== ==================
You'd like my Ranger. To apply the E-brake, you have to stick your left
knee in your ear to get your foot high enough.


I was driving a friends pickup when the brakes failed. It had a weird
emergency brake that was under the steering wheel and pulled horizontally.
When the brakes gave out, I was moving at a pretty good clip down the street
and a bunch of cars were in front of me, waiting at a light. I went to pull
the brake and discovered to my horror, that I could not pull it hard enough
to stop the vehicle. I had to lean over to the right to get enough leverage
to stop the truck. But then, I could not see out the windshield. So I
quickly calculated where I would steer to get the truck off the road and not
hit the cars in front of me. I steered with one hand and pulled on the
brake with the other hand. And hoped nothing terrible would happen..

When it was all over, I looked up and discovered I had just missed a utility
pole by inches and another parked truck by inches. Somehow I had stopped
the truck in between those two things, not hit anything and got the truck
almost all the way off the road, up onto the sidewalk. Once I realized what
happened, I just started to shake and sweat. I took a couple minutes to
calm down, walked to the corner and made a call. And I yelled a lot. I was
really upset. He came out and towed the truck away. I did not drive the
truck after that.

The other time was in my own vehicle. It was a very straightforward foot
emergency brake on the left side. Easy to get at and very effective. I was
going down a steep hill towards a major street. The brakes failed. There
was nobody else around, no traffic or pedestrians. I stomped on the
emergency brake and the truck started to swerve a little. I had to release
the brake a couple times to get the vehicle under control. I ended up going
off the road into a parking lot. It was a little scary, but it was just me
and the truck.

When I stopped, I looked up to see where I was and discovered I had brought
the truck to a stop at a brake and muffler shop! I was shocked. So I eased
it a little bit further into the parking lot and went in and told them what
happened. He wrote me up and posted a sign on the truck letting everybody
know there was no brakes. I understood that the pushed the truck into the
shop by hand.

I walked home and came back the next day to pick it up. I can honestly say
that is the only time I ever had a vehicle break down right in front of the
shop. Saved me the cost of a tow.

On 12/4/11 9:30 PM, Larry W wrote:
And people who were trained to
pump the brakes in poor traction...

....were trained by fools.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

SonomaProducts.com wrote:

I think assuming you will never make a momentary mistake vs having
equipment in place that makes it impossible to screw up is a mistake
in itself.


One of the laws of systemantics (why systems fail) is:

"Fail-safe systems always fail by failing to fail safe."

Consider auto brakes. Originally, you pushed a pedal which, connected by a
cable, moved the brake shoes. Then came hydraulic brakes, which quadrupled
the number of parts subject to possible failure. Add power assist, another
doubling. Then dual braking, another doubling of parts. And so on.

The car went from, maybe, ten parts involved in stopping the vehicle to
several hundred.

On 12/4/2011 10:30 PM, Larry W wrote:

More likely any increase in accidents was due to lack of training. People
using ABS for the first time often thought there was a brake system
defect when they experienced the pedal pulsation the ABS causes when it
is active and let up on the brakes. And people who were trained to
pump the brakes in poor traction continued to do so with ABS, resulting
in reduction inn braking performance.

Until you have ABS go off on dry pavement as you attempt to slow down
normally to avoid ramming the stopped traffic in front of you, you ain't
experienced the wonders of ABS. I pulled the fuse on my GMC truck after
3 fixes under warranty and one out of warranty. These things reduce
braking power by 1/2 it seems.

--
Jack
Got Change: General Motors === Government Motors!
http://jbstein.com

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 08:17:07 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

The car went from, maybe, ten parts involved in stopping the vehicle to
several hundred.

Very true. But weren't those 10 parts for stopping a old slow car? How
would they work on a Hummer going 90mph?

No, I do *not* have a %$#@! Hummer :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 12/4/2011 12:00 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:28:24 -0600, wrote:

On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In , knuttle
wrote:

The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in
using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw
stop there will be more accidents with the saw.

I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers,
collisions increased for just that reason.

And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or
respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile
because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL,
see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at
80mph.

The problem with today's drivers is that most of them can't even
steer, let alone DRIVE a vehicle. I believe in mandatory emergency
(or performance) driving courses and mandatory gun handling courses
for every citizen. We'd eliminate a lot of our vehicular deaths and
maimings plus reduce the number of criminals if we'd face that. People
wouldn't be afraid of guns or cars nearly as much as they are now.


I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My
own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and
put on the brakes at the last possible moment.

Soccer Moms are second, followed by hormonal male teenagers.


My vote's for people who learned to drive in another country.

In article ,
-MIKE- wrote:
On 12/4/11 9:30 PM, Larry W wrote:
And people who were trained to
pump the brakes in poor traction...

...were trained by fools.


I should have been more specific. I was talking about situations like
skidding on ice, where in pre-ABS days controlled pumping of brakes
was (and is) an effective method of regaining control of braking.

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org