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#1
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...5&rid=22301377 -- -- |
#2
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On Nov 30, 1:43*pm, "Lobby Dosser" wrote:
These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...tors-blog/subm... -- -- "The US Consumer Products Safety Commission is considering new safety regulations for table saws, based on a petition asking for a requirement that table saws should be equipped with a device to reduce or prevent injuries." Gosh, I wonder what company could have filed that petition? I actually love my Sawstop but I have heard the guy behind it is a lawyer (and a jerk) and part of the reason nobody licensed his technology was he was to greedy. Oh well, he got my money. P.S. I have not met him or have any personal knowledge os his ahole-ness just passing along what I heard. |
#3
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...5&rid=22301377 This is a lawyer law. Safety regulation should be based on facts. How many fingers have been cut of per year per table saw in the last 100 years of their existence. I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency stop. The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. |
#4
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
"knuttle" wrote in message ... On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote: These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...5&rid=22301377 This is a lawyer law. Safety regulation should be based on facts. How many fingers have been cut of per year per table saw in the last 100 years of their existence. I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency stop. The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Germans were hesitant to issue parachutes to their pilots because they thought that if pilots had a way out, they wouldn't try to save the plane. stop there will be more accidents with the saw. |
#5
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On Nov 30, 5:56*pm, knuttle wrote:
On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote: These folks tell you where to lodge your opinion. I Know you have one. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...tors-blog/subm... This is a lawyer law. *Safety regulation should be based on facts. How many fingers have been cut of per year per table saw in the last 100 years of their existence. I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency *stop. The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. Very bad logic. Fingers on the floor vs a few hun extra for the saw; no question it is a super deal. It just shouldn't be forced on anyone. Liberty or the freedom to choose I am all for it so people like you can be weeded out via the Darwin principal. |
#6
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/1/2011 2:13 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
I suspect that the cost of the saw stop far exceeds the cost to society repairing cut of fingers. Cost of the saw stop must include cost to put it on the saw plus the cost of repairing the saw after the emergency stop. The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. Very bad logic. Fingers on the floor vs a few hun extra for the saw; no question it is a super deal. It just shouldn't be forced on anyone. Liberty or the freedom to choose I am all for it so people like you can be weeded out via the Darwin principal. I've been using table saws for 50+ years with absolutely no safety devices at all. No riving knife, splitters, blade covers or anti-kickback device. I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous. Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. I'm certainly not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on. I will say after all these years, I'm now thinking because my brain is not always in gear, now would be a good time to think about quitting, or buying a saw stop thing-ee. As it is, I'd rather cut off my arm than give that freaking lawyer a dime of my money. Two things come to mind when talking about this stuff. One was a video of a guy cutting wood shingles on a 20" saw spinning in his face as his hands pushed logs as fast as he could though the blade. Most dangerous thing I recall anyone doing on purpose. The other was my BIL cutting shims out of a hand held 6" 2x4 with the biggest, heaviest CS I'd ever used. When I warned him he could cut off a fing-ee, he just looked and laughed at me. He only had been doing it for a living for 50 years... I wonder how long it will take Darwin to weed us out? -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life. http://jbstein.com |
#7
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
.. *I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous.
Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. *I'm certainly not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on. -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti- kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive placed back in in a few seconds. Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes. Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders. Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch? Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade and climbing? Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock? |
#8
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/2/2011 1:47 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock? Not sufficiently stupid enough to have ever even considered getting in the position to do that. AAMOF, unless I'm missing something, damned hard to even imagine *anyone* being that stupid? -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#9
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
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#11
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/2/2011 2:47 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
. I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous. Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. I'm certainly not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on. -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti- kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive placed back in in a few seconds. Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes. Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders. I always thought "neanders" meant guys using hand tools, i.e. pre-electric? I love power tools, and generally don't like doing things by hand that can be done with power. I firmly believe that guys like Norm, and a billion other woodworkers, do not remove their blade guards for better TV viewing, but like me, an unnecessary nuisance. Same with ear muffs (except for my shop vac) Eye protection is a good idea. I would not recommend anyone not take every safety precaution known to man, but I would rather live "on the edge" I don't climb mountains, I cut wood... Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch? Nope, never once. I rarely, close to never, have had kickbacks, and the few I had never came near hitting me anywhere. Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade and climbing? Yes, more than a couple. Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock? Nope, never once. I know it only takes once but I have always had a healthy respect for the dangers of this stuff. Not afraid, but not "not afraid" either. I will admit as I grow older, my eyesight, reactions and "sharpness" ain't what they were, and likely not going to get better. I could see me some day forgetting to turn off my saw, and taking a nap on the spinning blade... Saw stop will not be there to save me, but save me from what I don't know. For now, my 50 years experience is my protector, long as I remember where I am, and what exactly I'm up to:-) -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life. http://jbstein.com |
#12
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:47:37 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote: . *I'm careful because it's obviously dangerous. Obvious because the blade is flying past your fingers. *I'm certainly not against people strapping every conceivable safety device to their tools and body, in fact, I get a kick out of seeing goofy people weighted down with external gear, ear muffs, gas masks, face masks gloves, rube goldberg blade guard contraptions and on and on. -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.http://jbstein.com Sawstop's main saftey device is totally unintrusive. Blade guard, anti- kickback cauls and riving knife are not at all in my way down to about a 1.5" rip. Guard, cauls and rive are easily removed and just a rive placed back in in a few seconds. Ear protection will save your ears (mine are damaged already from machines and drums. Dust masks will keep you safe from proven carcinogines. Safety glasses will save your eyes. Those who knock all this stuff really are neanders. Have you never caught a kickback in the crotch? No but I had a piece exit stage left when using a RAS. I stand to the side. Have you never had a piece of stressed stock start pinching the blade and climbing? On a RAS, yes. Scary thing, that! Have you never nearly missed racking you hand across the top of the blade when pulling back a ripped piece of stock? Never. My hands don't go behind the blade until it's stopped. I did cut my finger a few weeks back, though. ...on the miter slot. I don't think Gass' invention would have helped. Maybe I can get him to force the CSPC to chamfer them more. Nah, no money there. |
#13
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
knuttle wrote:
On 11/30/2011 4:43 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. When I worked for the Exploration and Production laboratories of Shell Oil, we had a pretty loose consideration of safety rules, relying mostly on common sense. Then we got a new Vice President, recently reassigned from Shell's other lab on the west coast. He was absolutely nutty about safety. He implemented a rule that all gas bottles had to be chained to the wall! Sure enough, a fellow pushing a cart with two dewars of liquid nitrogen passed a stack of gas bottles, the same stack he had passed every day for years. He hit the stack with his cart. Even though the bottles were chained, he knocked one bottle of nitrogen loose. It fell and knocked off the valve. Like a torpedo, it went through the wall and into the parking lot. Safety rules vs. being alert. Which to choose? Let me think... |
#14
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
In article , knuttle
wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers, collisions increased for just that reason. -- Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com |
#15
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In , knuttle wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers, collisions increased for just that reason. And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL, see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at 80mph. I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and put on the brakes at the last possible moment. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#16
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
"Swingman" wrote And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL... As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive. I was always safety conscious. I can not imagine what would have happened if I wasn't. Nothing like a near death experience to get the safety religion. |
#17
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:56:04 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote: "Swingman" wrote And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL... As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive. I was always safety conscious. I can not imagine what would have happened if I wasn't. Nothing like a near death experience to get the safety religion. I was doing about 75 in a rural area, half crocked, when my master cylinder bypassed. After the third time my foot hit the floor with the pedal under it, I dropped into third, then second, then missed my turn. I had to go over a deep swale where the other road was a straighter shot than the 70 degree turn I had wanted. Just before I hit the swale, I popped the wheel to the left, then quickly right, and shoved the tail over a foot and a half to the left, aiming at the hole between two lines of parked cars. I bounced over it and stayed between the cars until it slowed down a bit. I think I hit that 15mph bump at at least 45. Thank Crom for the Javelin's strong rear leafs, but it bottomed those out. Even ****faced, I pulled it out where a typical driver would have t-boned a car or rolled it into a house. Some skills and a whole lot of luck. Luckily, I sobered up not too long after that, and sobriety has lasted 27+ years now. -- Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice. -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton |
#18
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message b.com... As some one who has had two major incidents where my brakes did fail, I can relate. I obsessively look for the emergency brake in each vehicle I drive. ================================================== ================== You'd like my Ranger. To apply the E-brake, you have to stick your left knee in your ear to get your foot high enough. |
#19
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:28:24 -0600, Swingman wrote:
On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote: In , knuttle wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers, collisions increased for just that reason. And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL, see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at 80mph. The problem with today's drivers is that most of them can't even steer, let alone DRIVE a vehicle. I believe in mandatory emergency (or performance) driving courses and mandatory gun handling courses for every citizen. We'd eliminate a lot of our vehicular deaths and maimings plus reduce the number of criminals if we'd face that. People wouldn't be afraid of guns or cars nearly as much as they are now. I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and put on the brakes at the last possible moment. Soccer Moms are second, followed by hormonal male teenagers. Today's tidbit of wisdom: The definition of a jerk is "someone driving slower than you are." The definition of a maniac is "someone driving faster than you." -- Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice. -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton |
#20
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:00:50 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
The problem with today's drivers is that most of them can't even steer, let alone DRIVE a vehicle. Amen to that. I'm old enough to remember when teenage boys were the most reckless drivers, but that appears to have been only because most teenage girls back then didn't drive. And quite a few of those boys (myself included) were good enough drivers to get out of most of the situations our overactive hormones got us into. I've learned the hard way to keep my mouth shut when my wife is driving, and she's a lot better than most. -- Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw |
#21
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/4/2011 12:00 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:28:24 -0600, wrote: On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote: In , knuttle wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers, collisions increased for just that reason. And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL, see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at 80mph. The problem with today's drivers is that most of them can't even steer, let alone DRIVE a vehicle. I believe in mandatory emergency (or performance) driving courses and mandatory gun handling courses for every citizen. We'd eliminate a lot of our vehicular deaths and maimings plus reduce the number of criminals if we'd face that. People wouldn't be afraid of guns or cars nearly as much as they are now. I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and put on the brakes at the last possible moment. Soccer Moms are second, followed by hormonal male teenagers. My vote's for people who learned to drive in another country. |
#22
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/4/2011 12:28 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote: In , knuttle wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers, collisions increased for just that reason. And why most of the driving population today, who have no idea or respect for the engineering principles behind braking an automobile because they were never taught the basics, including that brakes FAIL, see no problem with driving five feet behind the car in front of them at 80mph. I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. My own daughter, as much as I fuss, will drive 30 mph up to a stop sign and put on the brakes at the last possible moment. But the real question is, once she gets there does she wait for the stop sign to turn green, then with no real idea whose TURN it is, negotiates using mysterious visual cues with the other drivers to see who's going to take the initiative? "Right of way" - what's that? :-) -- "Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day." (From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago) To reply, eat the taco. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/ |
#23
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
In article , Swingman
wrote: I swear, younger female drivers appear to be the worst of the bunch. Ah yes, the triple S's... Skirt on a cellphone in a Sunfire. See them spun out in ditches everywhere, all winter long. -- Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com |
#24
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
In article 041220111218435309%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone. ca,
Dave Balderstone wrote: In article , knuttle wrote: The more safety device the more people assume there is no danger in using the tool, so since people will assume they are safe with the saw stop there will be more accidents with the saw. I recall that when ABS brakes were installed in police cruisers, collisions increased for just that reason. -- Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com More likely any increase in accidents was due to lack of training. People using ABS for the first time often thought there was a brake system defect when they experienced the pedal pulsation the ABS causes when it is active and let up on the brakes. And people who were trained to pump the brakes in poor traction continued to do so with ABS, resulting in reduction inn braking performance. -- Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org |
#25
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/4/11 9:30 PM, Larry W wrote:
And people who were trained to pump the brakes in poor traction... ....were trained by fools. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#26
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
In article ,
-MIKE- wrote: On 12/4/11 9:30 PM, Larry W wrote: And people who were trained to pump the brakes in poor traction... ...were trained by fools. I should have been more specific. I was talking about situations like skidding on ice, where in pre-ABS days controlled pumping of brakes was (and is) an effective method of regaining control of braking. -- Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org |
#27
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
On 12/4/2011 10:30 PM, Larry W wrote:
More likely any increase in accidents was due to lack of training. People using ABS for the first time often thought there was a brake system defect when they experienced the pedal pulsation the ABS causes when it is active and let up on the brakes. And people who were trained to pump the brakes in poor traction continued to do so with ABS, resulting in reduction inn braking performance. Until you have ABS go off on dry pavement as you attempt to slow down normally to avoid ramming the stopped traffic in front of you, you ain't experienced the wonders of ABS. I pulled the fuse on my GMC truck after 3 fixes under warranty and one out of warranty. These things reduce braking power by 1/2 it seems. -- Jack Got Change: General Motors === Government Motors! http://jbstein.com |
#28
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Table Saw Safety & The CPSC
In article , Jack wrote:
On 12/4/2011 10:30 PM, Larry W wrote: More likely any increase in accidents was due to lack of training. People using ABS for the first time often thought there was a brake system defect when they experienced the pedal pulsation the ABS causes when it is active and let up on the brakes. And people who were trained to pump the brakes in poor traction continued to do so with ABS, resulting in reduction inn braking performance. Until you have ABS go off on dry pavement as you attempt to slow down normally to avoid ramming the stopped traffic in front of you, you ain't experienced the wonders of ABS. I pulled the fuse on my GMC truck after 3 fixes under warranty and one out of warranty. These things reduce braking power by 1/2 it seems. -- Jack Got Change: General Motors === Government Motors! http://jbstein.com Didn't we have this same conversation a few months ago? Your assertion is possibly true for a defective system or perhaps one that has been poorly designed, but there is no question that ABS results in better stopping distances except for very skilled drivers, and for them only in straight line stops on dry pavement. -- Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org |
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