This is not spam. Of course, every time I read a usenet article that begins
like that, it *IS* spam. Trust me, this isn't.

A friend's brother-in-law (huh?) sent him the following link. My friend
promptly emailed it to three others, including me.

I'm not in the cabinet-making business but this amazing 10-inch table saw make
me want to again acquire a table saw. I'm sure I'd have to get a second
mortgage. (I have NO idea the cost, but I'm sure it isn't cheap.)

I work for the phone company and don't even own a table or radial-arm saw and,
therefore, have no interest in this company or product beyond how COOL it
would be to have this tool! Enjoy!

http://www.sawstop.com
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

Absolutely safe power tools don't work, absolutely.

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:15:43 -0500, "Charles Schuler"

wrote:

Absolutely safe power tools don't work, absolutely.


Actually, in this case, you are absolutely wrong. I've seen a live
demonstration. Do some homework, and improve yourself.

Ridiculous! Tools are tools and fools are fools (and never the twain should
meet).

You are about as wrong as you could possibly be in this particular case.

You have got to be kidding. Tools that cut can cut anything in their path.
Tools that cannot cut fingers also cannot cut the work material, in all
situations. OSHA inspectors often cite safety devices that have been
defeated ... why?, because there is no other way to get the work done.

You are an obvious shill.

Any tool that cuts can hurt you, especially so if you are a stupid ass.

I have a friend in the lawn-mower industry who has stated and restated that
when lawn-mowers are completely safe, so is the grass.

It's just common sense.

On Mar 1, 6:58 pm, "Charles Schuler"
wrote:
You are about as wrong as you could possibly be in this particular case.

You have got to be kidding. Tools that cut can cut anything in their path.
Tools that cannot cut fingers also cannot cut the work material, in all
situations. OSHA inspectors often cite safety devices that have been
defeated ... why?, because there is no other way to get the work done.

You are an obvious shill.

Any tool that cuts can hurt you, especially so if you are a stupid ass.

I have a friend in the lawn-mower industry who has stated and restated that
when lawn-mowers are completely safe, so is the grass.

It's just common sense.

There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House.
He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched
the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared
immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It
works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and
you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious. Do I
approve of SawStop attempting to have legislation pass that will
require their product on every table saw? No way!

I'm a firm believer that stupidity can't be legislated out of
existence. There will always be someone who will manage to hurt
themselves.

R

There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House.
He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched
the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared
immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It
works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and
you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious. Do I
approve of SawStop attempting to have legislation pass that will
require their product on every table saw? No way!

I'm a firm believer that stupidity can't be legislated out of
existence. There will always be someone who will manage to hurt
themselves.

As I said before, this is ridiculous. Half of the stuff on this old house
is also ridiculous and the other half is questionable. This old house is TV
..... get it? TV! TV! Not reality!

Table saws should only be used by those who know how to use them. Chain
saws too!

So, any fool can go to Sears and buy one or both. That's just one reason
why there are so many wealthy lawyers.

Show me a safe chain saw and I'll show you a device that won't cut down a
sapling! A safe table saw will not rip a 2 x 4.

I can't believe that I am responding to this dumb ****. Signed off,
forever! PLONK

"RicodJour" writes:

There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House.
He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched
the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared
immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It
works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and
you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Right. As I understand it, the system detects that the blade has
touched something conductive, either by current flow to the table or
capacitance. But neither mechanism is a foolproof way to detect flesh.
How can it detect the difference between a finger and wet wood?
If the SawStop trips by mistake, how much does it cost to replace the
brake and the blade?

Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing
rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade
touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger. Yet, because you
think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual
about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off
in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured
than with a conventional table saw.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious.

I agree with that.

Dave

On Mar 1, 8:03 pm, "Charles Schuler"
wrote:
There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House.
He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched
the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared
immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It
works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and
you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious. Do I
approve of SawStop attempting to have legislation pass that will
require their product on every table saw? No way!

I'm a firm believer that stupidity can't be legislated out of
existence. There will always be someone who will manage to hurt
themselves.

As I said before, this is ridiculous. Half of the stuff on this old house
is also ridiculous and the other half is questionable. This old house is TV
.... get it? TV! TV! Not reality!

Oh, I get it. Those buildings are all built on a sound stage
somewhere, right? It's all staged and heavy on the computer
graphics. That host avatar looks a lot like Howdy Doody. I wonder if
they had to license him...

The stuff on the show is real, whether you approve of it or not.

Table saws should only be used by those who know how to use them. Chain
saws too!

Where's the fun in that?

So, any fool can go to Sears and buy one or both. That's just one reason
why there are so many wealthy lawyers.

What are you suggesting? Licensing chainsaws and tablesaws?

Show me a safe chain saw and I'll show you a device that won't cut down a
sapling! A safe table saw will not rip a 2 x 4.

Where do you get this stuff? You don't seem to know the first thing
about the SawStop, but you've taken quite the emotional stance. Visit
the web site, read the FAQ. Then you can start yelling in an informed
manner.

I can't believe that I am responding to this dumb ****. Signed off,
forever! PLONK

Suicide isn't the answer. Please reconsider!

R

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
Right. As I understand it, the system detects that the blade has
touched something conductive, either by current flow to the table or
capacitance. But neither mechanism is a foolproof way to detect flesh.
How can it detect the difference between a finger and wet wood?
If the SawStop trips by mistake, how much does it cost to replace the
brake and the blade?

There is a bypass if you are cutting aluminum or wet wood, but in 99.9% of
all users, we dont want to cut wet wood. That is not really an issue.


Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing
rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade
touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger.

Two things here, First you should not be wearing any sort of glove using a
table saw of any type. Yes, there is a danger to getting a glove caught
since you don't have the same feel. Second, once the glove is cut, it will
detect the skin and you have conductivity again. I've not seen everything,
but I've never seen a woodworker wearing rubber gloves when using a table
saw. To avoide a safety divice for the tiny amount of people int he world
that woud do so, is just plain silly.


Yet, because you
think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual
about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off
in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured
than with a conventional table saw.

Does your car have seatbelts and air bags? Did it change your driving
habits? Another silly argument.

"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
...
Absolutely safe power tools don't work, absolutely.

People who own them are very pleased with the results. It is a high quality
tool, ranks with the best of them. Rather than make silly statements, go
see one and try one out. Lee Valley stores replaced all of their saws with
the Sawstop.

No one is forcing you to buy one, so you still have a choice.

On Mar 1, 8:45 pm, (Dave Martindale) wrote:
"RicodJour" writes:
There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House.
He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched
the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared
immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It
works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and
you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Right. As I understand it, the system detects that the blade has
touched something conductive, either by current flow to the table or
capacitance. But neither mechanism is a foolproof way to detect flesh.
How can it detect the difference between a finger and wet wood?
If the SawStop trips by mistake, how much does it cost to replace the
brake and the blade?

Far as I know, nothing is foolproof. The manufacturer makes that
clear on their web site. If your hand is moving fast when you hit the
blade, you will get damaged. At normal speed the cut would be about
1/16" deep. Replacing the blade and the brake ain't gonna be cheap,
but I guarantee that it's less than the emergency room visit. The wet
wood would still have a substantially different conductivity/
capacitance than wood. There's far more water in flesh than in even
the wettest wood (I don't mean wood that's been rained on, and I'm not
sure how PT saturated wood would work - the chemicals might change the
wood conductivity substantially).

Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing
rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade
touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger. Yet, because you
think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual
about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off
in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured
than with a conventional table saw.

When the saw cut through the glove and hit your finger, then it would
trigger. Shouldn't be a problem - unless the glove gets snagged and
pulls your hand towards the blade.

As far as the second part, do you find yourself taking dangerous risks
because your car has seat belts and air bags? Regardless of the
technology, the wet ware that hits the on switch is still the biggest
potential problem.

R

On Mar 1, 9:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Martindale" wrote in message

Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing
rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade
touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger.

Two things here, First you should not be wearing any sort of glove using a
table saw of any type. Yes, there is a danger to getting a glove caught
since you don't have the same feel.

I've been guilty of wearing gloves and operating a table saw on
occasion, and I know it's a bad idea. A surgeon woodworker friend
told me about the dangers of wearing wedding rings while working with
shop tools. He related the scenario where the ring got caught and it
stripped the flesh off of the finger bone. It's called degloving and
it's almost impossible to repair. Usually they have to do a partial
amputation of the finger. http://medpics.findlaw.com/enlargeexhibit.php?ID=13459

R

Finding the keyboard operational
Charles Schuler entered:

You are about as wrong as you could possibly be in this particular
case.

You have got to be kidding. Tools that cut can cut anything in their
path. Tools that cannot cut fingers also cannot cut the work
material, in all situations. OSHA inspectors often cite safety
devices that have been defeated ... why?, because there is no other
way to get the work done.
You are an obvious shill.

Any tool that cuts can hurt you, especially so if you are a stupid
ass.
I have a friend in the lawn-mower industry who has stated and
restated that when lawn-mowers are completely safe, so is the grass.

It's just common sense.

You should do a bit of research before you post.
Sawstop has been around for a few years. So far there hasn't been anyone
injured as far as I know. Technology keeps moving ahead.
Bob

--�
--�
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Just before I recently retired, I talked my boss into looking into a
SawStop .. .. .. he liked it and bought one for our shop. After
receiving it, he and the plant manager wanted to see a demonstration ..
... .. after all, we did buy 5 extra cartridges. I got the opportunity
to perform the demo on two occasions, and it went perfectly both times.
We were using a blade ground with an ATB configuration. I pre-cut a
"v" notch in a piece of 2"X6" and taped the hotdog in place. The saw
was started and the test board was pushed into the saw at a rate one
would never consider practical. In a moment, there was a loud "bang"
and the blade disappeared. Inspection of the hot dog's damage revealed
that only one tooth had cut the skin .. .. that was determined by the
fact that there was only a slight cut on one side of the dog .. .. if
two teeth ever touched it, there would have been two defined cuts about
1/8" apart. One day, I'll own my own SawStop. For now, I'll try to
just be extra careful and hope for the best.

As to the wet-wood concerns .. .. .. IF the SawStop detects marginal
conductivity, it coasts to a stop and flashes a code informing you that
it "sees" a problem and that it could trigger an event if you proceed.
At that point, you can continue, quit, or put the device in "by-pass".

A triggered event WILL destroy the cartridge ($59.00) and will most
llikely damage two or three teeth on the blade .. .. .. if it's a cheap
blade, toss it .. .. if it's a premium blade, have the teeth replaced
and have the blade sharpened right away. Eithr way, it's better than a
trip to the E.R. AND the trauma & heartach of knowing you COULD have
been spared the experience if you weren't so cheap and/or didn't happen
to care for the way the inventor markets his device.

In time, when the technology becomes more prevalent, I believe you will
initially see lowered insurance rates for shops that invest in this
technology. Eventually, you will probably see huge premium increases
for those shops who resist it.

Perfect-or-not .. .. it's in the cards for the future and there's no
getting around THAT.

"RicodJour" wrote in
ups.com:

On Mar 1, 8:03 pm, "Charles Schuler"
wrote:
There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old
House. He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the
blade touched the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade
disappeared immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_
scratched. It works. Of course every time the brake engages the
blade is fried and you have to replace the braking mechanism and
the blade.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious. Do I
approve of SawStop attempting to have legislation pass that will
require their product on every table saw? No way!

I'm a firm believer that stupidity can't be legislated out of
existence. There will always be someone who will manage to hurt
themselves.

As I said before, this is ridiculous. Half of the stuff on this old
house is also ridiculous and the other half is questionable. This
old house is TV .... get it? TV! TV! Not reality!

Oh, I get it. Those buildings are all built on a sound stage
somewhere, right? It's all staged and heavy on the computer
graphics. That host avatar looks a lot like Howdy Doody. I wonder if
they had to license him...

The stuff on the show is real, whether you approve of it or not.

Table saws should only be used by those who know how to use them.
Chain saws too!

Where's the fun in that?

So, any fool can go to Sears and buy one or both. That's just one
reason why there are so many wealthy lawyers.

What are you suggesting? Licensing chainsaws and tablesaws?

Not going pro or con on this saw thing but comment above...30 yrs ago in
the factory if you were an employee you could grab any fork truck and
drive it from day-1 on the job. :-)


Show me a safe chain saw and I'll show you a device that won't cut
down a sapling! A safe table saw will not rip a 2 x 4.

Where do you get this stuff? You don't seem to know the first thing
about the SawStop, but you've taken quite the emotional stance. Visit
the web site, read the FAQ. Then you can start yelling in an informed
manner.

I can't believe that I am responding to this dumb ****. Signed off,
forever! PLONK

Suicide isn't the answer. Please reconsider!

R

"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:

Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing
rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade
touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger.

Two things here, First you should not be wearing any sort of glove using a
table saw of any type. Yes, there is a danger to getting a glove caught
since you don't have the same feel. Second, once the glove is cut, it will
detect the skin and you have conductivity again.

But if you have a glove on the other hand, you still don't have a
conductive path, and the brake doesn't activate.

I've not seen everything,
but I've never seen a woodworker wearing rubber gloves when using a table
saw. To avoide a safety divice for the tiny amount of people int he world
that woud do so, is just plain silly.

I'm not suggesting avoiding it if you think it would increase your
safety. At the same time, I'm trying to point out that it doesn't
magically make a table saw a safe tool that can be used without thinking
about the dangers. It doesn't do anything about kickback, for example.

Yet, because you
think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual
about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off
in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured
than with a conventional table saw.

Does your car have seatbelts and air bags? Did it change your driving
habits? Another silly argument.

My car has seatbelts but no air bags. I always wear the seatbelts. But
there have been studies showing that when people drive cars that provide
more protection in accidents (e.g. air bags, heavy SUVs) they take more
risks. If you think a table saw is less likely to hurt you, you'll take
less care around it.

Dave

Dave Martindale wrote:


I'm not suggesting avoiding it if you think it would increase your
safety. At the same time, I'm trying to point out that it doesn't
magically make a table saw a safe tool that can be used without thinking
about the dangers. It doesn't do anything about kickback, for example.


Dave


Actually, the SawStop DOES do everything possible to prevent kickback ..
... .. because of it's riving knife, it is one of only a very few
American saws that can be legally sold in Europe !! !! !!

"RicodJour" wrote in
ps.com:

On Mar 1, 6:58 pm, "Charles Schuler"
wrote:
You are about as wrong as you could possibly be in this particular
case.

You have got to be kidding. Tools that cut can cut anything in their
path. Tools that cannot cut fingers also cannot cut the work
material, in all situations. OSHA inspectors often cite safety
devices that have been defeated ... why?, because there is no other
way to get the work done.

You are an obvious shill.

Any tool that cuts can hurt you, especially so if you are a stupid
ass.

I have a friend in the lawn-mower industry who has stated and
restated that when lawn-mowers are completely safe, so is the grass.

It's just common sense.

There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen
the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House.
He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched
the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared
immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It
works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and
you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious. Do I
approve of SawStop attempting to have legislation pass that will
require their product on every table saw? No way!

I'm a firm believer that stupidity can't be legislated out of
existence. There will always be someone who will manage to hurt
themselves.

R



there's an issue of Wood Magazine that had an article on this
product.Pictures too.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Mar 1, 11:40 pm, (Dave Martindale) wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:
Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing
rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade
touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger.

Two things here, First you should not be wearing any sort of glove using a
table saw of any type. Yes, there is a danger to getting a glove caught
since you don't have the same feel. Second, once the glove is cut, it will
detect the skin and you have conductivity again.

But if you have a glove on the other hand, you still don't have a
conductive path, and the brake doesn't activate.

It's not simply conductance. The SawStop is not using you as a
"ground". You could be hanging from rubber shock cords from the
ceiling and it would still kick in the brake if you touched it. The
capacitance changes when flesh contacts the blade - like those touch-
lamps. You don't have to be grounded to turn the light on and off.

I've not seen everything,
but I've never seen a woodworker wearing rubber gloves when using a table
saw. To avoide a safety divice for the tiny amount of people int he world
that woud do so, is just plain silly.

I'm not suggesting avoiding it if you think it would increase your
safety. At the same time, I'm trying to point out that it doesn't
magically make a table saw a safe tool that can be used without thinking
about the dangers. It doesn't do anything about kickback, for example.

One step at a time. BTW, the things that do prevent kickback and
increase safety(splitters and guards) are often removed by the
operators because they get in the way. The SawStop doesn't get in the
way. The SawStop price gets in the way!

Yet, because you
think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual
about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off
in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured
than with a conventional table saw.

Does your car have seatbelts and air bags? Did it change your driving
habits? Another silly argument.

My car has seatbelts but no air bags. I always wear the seatbelts. But
there have been studies showing that when people drive cars that provide
more protection in accidents (e.g. air bags, heavy SUVs) they take more
risks. If you think a table saw is less likely to hurt you, you'll take
less care around it.

There are so many ways to get injured while working with power tools
that it's impossible to make them idiot proof. Large steps in safety
such as seat belts, motorcycle helmets and the ilk, are the best way
to approach it. Yet there are people still arguing against seat belts
and helmets. No surprise that there are people arguing against the
SawStop.

R

On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:31:06 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


Yet, because you
think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual
about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off
in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured
than with a conventional table saw.

Does your car have seatbelts and air bags? Did it change your driving
habits? Another silly argument.

I haven't heard this about airbags and seatbelts that I can remember,
but I definitely heard that all-wheel drive or ABS had resulted in
people driving faster.

This is not to say I'm against safety devices. Although I am against
seat belt laws for adults, but not because I think seatbelts are
unsafe.

"Ban food with transfat. Prevent deaths from second-hand fat."

In article , (Dave Martindale)
wrote:

But if you have a glove on the other hand, you still don't have a
conductive path, and the brake doesn't activate.

I believe this is incorrect. I do not recall there needs to be a complete
CIRCUIT to activate the stopping mechanism. I watched all the videos (to my
interest and sometimes amazement) and recall it was capacitance technology or
something similar.

It doesn't do anything about kickback, for example.

The SawStop, according to their website, DOES address kickback - very
effectively, IIRC.
--

JR

No project too small
All projects too big

In article ,
says...


You are about as wrong as you could possibly be in this particular case.

You have got to be kidding. Tools that cut can cut anything in their path.
Tools that cannot cut fingers also cannot cut the work material, in all
situations. OSHA inspectors often cite safety devices that have been
defeated ... why?, because there is no other way to get the work done.

Tell you what: why don't you use Google to find out a little bit about
the SawStop. It does, in fact, cut wood just find -- and stop in an
instant if the blade comes in contact with flesh.

You are an obvious shill.

?? Explain the logic underlying *that* conclusion.

Any tool that cuts can hurt you,

Yes, which is kinda the point of the SawStop technology: to minimize the
extent of the hurt. It really does work. Google it. There are some
pretty impressive demonstration videos available on the net.

especially so if you are a stupid ass.

Speaking of which... you're not exactly making yourself look like
Einstein here, you know...

I have a friend in the lawn-mower industry who has stated and restated that
when lawn-mowers are completely safe, so is the grass.

It's just common sense.

Common sense ain't so common (obviously). And sometimes the conclusions
drawn from it are wrong.

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message

But if you have a glove on the other hand, you still don't have a
conductive path, and the brake doesn't activate.

So, Michael Jackson does woodwork? I'm not so sure the conductive path
works the way you think. a hot dog strapped onto the wood works as well.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Dave Martindale" wrote in message

But if you have a glove on the other hand, you still don't have a
conductive path, and the brake doesn't activate.

So, Michael Jackson does woodwork? I'm not so sure the conductive path
works the way you think. a hot dog strapped onto the wood works as well.

Strapping a hot dog to a piece of wood and running it through a table
saw...there's just something wrong there. It's like some psychopath's
hobby. I bet you that's what Jeffrey Dahmer did in his workshop.
Practice makes perfect!

R