On 9/5/2011 10:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Well you are absolutely wrong.

New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.

Only if it's in an unfinished basement (or unfinished portion of a
basement), or a crawl space. And that's not new, either: that provision
dates from the 2008 Code, maybe earlier.

So What do you say to that...

I say, you're mistaken.

Any basement circuit requires it.

Not true.

GFCI protection is required *only* in unfinished basements and
unfinished portions of partially finished basements:

"...receptacles ... in the locations specified ... shall have
ground-fault protection ... Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this
section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the
basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas,
work rooms, and the like ..." [2011 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]

I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
house was built that was what was called for.



On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100,
wrote:
Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
not a
current overload device.

That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?

motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.

On 9/6/11 5:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:

Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the
inspector was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire
nuts would pass and he said NO.


Interesting. Where do you live? I've never heard of this one before. Has
to be a local jurisdiction thing.


Many local inspectors can be pretty clueless. I was helping a friend
with an addition on his house. We used roof trusses that spanned the
entire width of the structure, from outer wall to outer wall. The
inspector told us we needed to tie the two outer walls together with
2x4's to keep the "rafters" from pushing them out. I tried my best to
convince him that...
A. there were no "rafters" in this structure and it was impossible for a
truss to push anywhere but straight down on the load bearing wall.
B. the walls were in fact, tied together every 24" with the 2x4's on the
bottom of each truss.

He refused to grasp any of these concepts and I ended up tying the walls
together with some 2x4's just to appease him, until he left, then I tore
them out.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Steve Barker writes:
On 9/6/2011 1:54 AM, Morgans wrote:
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
...

Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the inspector
was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire nuts would
pass and he said NO.


Some inspectors have their own strange interpretations of code.

and such people need to be challenged. Abuse of authority is not
acceptable.

Some localities have restrictions above and beyond the NEC, for example
metro Chicago & EMT.

scott

"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...

On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:


"m II" wrote in message ...

Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL

Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.

==================

I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
people
should know better than that.

Cut the guy some slack.


There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.

Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
currents are exactly the same.

Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)

==============

Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.

You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.

Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
without returning to the source. There will never be a difference in current
in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
circuit (static electricity theory using high voltage notwithstanding).

A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.

Review Kirchhoff's Current Law. (loosely stated) The sum of currents
arriving at any point must equal zero.

This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:02:32 -0400, "Eric" wrote:



"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...

On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:


"m II" wrote in message ...

Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL

Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.

==================

I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
people
should know better than that.

Cut the guy some slack.


There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.

Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
currents are exactly the same.

Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)

==============

Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.

You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.

Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
without returning to the source. There will never be a difference in current
in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
circuit (static electricity theory using high voltage notwithstanding).

A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.

However, this is not a two-terminal device. There is capacitance to ground,
you're missing. This complicates the issue greatly. ...and yes, it is a
problem, or at least was. I believe recent GFCIs have fixed this problem. The
codes have been changed to reflect this.

Review Kirchhoff's Current Law. (loosely stated) The sum of currents
arriving at any point must equal zero.

This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.

Capacitance.

On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
install a new electrical outlet under the sink...


BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction box.... : (

Thank you,
Bill



Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL

On 9/06/11 3:40 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
install a new electrical outlet under the sink...


BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
box.... : (


Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL

In addition to the typo in electrical, he misspelled Quirky.
:-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 9/6/2011 2:40 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
install a new electrical outlet under the sink...


BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
box.... : (

Thank you,
Bill



Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL

Hell, he got the correct answer on the second _reply_ at 4:46 PM.
Nothing further was needed on the original question ... and for the GFCI
question, eleven minutes later at 4:57 PM.

http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Threads/L...trial-Question

Everything since is either echoes, or noise.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 9/6/2011 2:40 PM, Leon wrote:

Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL

Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )



Hell, he got the correct answer on the second _reply_ at 4:46 PM.
Nothing further was needed on the original question ... and for the GFCI
question, eleven minutes later at 4:57 PM.

http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Threads/L...trial-Question


Everything since is either echoes, or noise.

"Bill" wrote in message ...
Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )

========

You mean there was a question put forth?
LOL

You do "stir-the-pot" here and make a lot of people think hard or research
subjects.
Some may hate the "noise" but it is good for most.


--

Eric

Eric wrote:


"Bill" wrote in message ...
Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )

========

You mean there was a question put forth?
LOL

You do "stir-the-pot" here and make a lot of people think hard or
research subjects.

Gosh, I'm just the type that likes to ask questions, while others
here really have the answers. But thank you.

Some may hate the "noise" but it is good for most.


--

Eric

"Bill" wrote in message ...

Eric wrote:


"Bill" wrote in message ...
Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )

========

You mean there was a question put forth?
LOL

You do "stir-the-pot" here and make a lot of people think hard or
research subjects.

Gosh, I'm just the type that likes to ask questions, while others
here really have the answers. But thank you.

Some may hate the "noise" but it is good for most.


--


======

Boys and their toys!!!

--

Eric
Eric

Western NJ


On 9/6/2011 5:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:

Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the
inspector was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire
nuts would pass and he said NO.


Interesting. Where do you live? I've never heard of this one before. Has
to be a local jurisdiction thing.

Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.

On 9/6/2011 6:51 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/5/2011 10:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Well you are absolutely wrong.

New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.

Only if it's in an unfinished basement (or unfinished portion of a
basement), or a crawl space. And that's not new, either: that provision
dates from the 2008 Code, maybe earlier.

So What do you say to that...

I say, you're mistaken.

Any basement circuit requires it.

Not true.

GFCI protection is required *only* in unfinished basements and
unfinished portions of partially finished basements:

"...receptacles ... in the locations specified ... shall have
ground-fault protection ... Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this
section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the
basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas,
work rooms, and the like ..." [2011 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]

I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
house was built that was what was called for.



On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100,
wrote:
Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
not a
current overload device.

That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?

motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.

On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.

One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.

The NEC is only a model, a suggestion. In and of itself, it has no force
at all; it acquires the force of law *only* when it is adopted as the
governing regulation by state law or municipal ordinance -- and such
jurisdictions are free to adopt it in toto, or in part, or with such
exceptions or additions as they see fit. It's entirely possible that
your jurisdiction has done exactly that. That's not unheard of, you
know: the Chicago electrical code, as I understand it, is *based* on the
NEC, but has numerous additions (e.g. all wiring must be run in conduit,
no Romex allowed) that appear to stem as much from a desire to keep
union electricians employed as from an understandably morbid fear of
widespread fires.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:46:05 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.

One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.

....or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.

...

In article ,
Eric wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...

On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:


"m II" wrote in message ...

Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL

Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.

==================

I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
people
should know better than that.

Cut the guy some slack.


There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.

Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
currents are exactly the same.

Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)

==============

Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.

"Those of you who think you know it all, are very annoying those who do."

You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.

Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
without returning to the source.

You know not that of which you speak.

There *is* energy in the magnetic field surrounding the inductor.
Just _where_ do you think that energy came from?

When power was applied some electricity went _into+ the device that did
_NOT_ come out as electricity *at*that*time*.

Similarly, when power is removed, some electricity comes out _after_ the
switch is opened. Just _where_ do you think that energy comes from?

hint, it is *stored* in the electromagnetic field.

There will never be a difference in current
in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
circuit.

*snicker*
Just where do you think the 'back emf' comes from when power is suddenly
removed from an inductor?

A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.

'Male bovine excrement' applies. You even stated one situation you call
'impossible'. To wit: 'A changing voltage through an inductor, may create a
phase-lagged current.' If you measure the *instantaneous* current _before_
and after the 'phase-shifting' device You *will* see different values.
Draw a sine-wave, measure the instantaneous (not 'peak', or 'mean) amplitude
at any given point during full cycle. Now measure the instantaneous amplitude
at a slightly different phase of the waveform. Unless the two points you
chose are symmetric around a maxima or minima of the waveform the
*INSTANTANEOUS* amplitude _will_ be different.

This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.

And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...

On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:


"m II" wrote in message ...

Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL

Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.

==================

I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
people
should know better than that.

Cut the guy some slack.


There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.

Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
currents are exactly the same.

Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)

==============

Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.

"Those of you who think you know it all, are very annoying those who do."

You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.

Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
without returning to the source.

You know not that of which you speak.

There *is* energy in the magnetic field surrounding the inductor.
Just _where_ do you think that energy came from?

When power was applied some electricity went _into+ the device that did
_NOT_ come out as electricity *at*that*time*.

Similarly, when power is removed, some electricity comes out _after_ the
switch is opened. Just _where_ do you think that energy comes from?

hint, it is *stored* in the electromagnetic field.

There will never be a difference in current
in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
circuit.

*snicker*
Just where do you think the 'back emf' comes from when power is suddenly
removed from an inductor?

A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.

'Male bovine excrement' applies. You even stated one situation you call
'impossible'. To wit: 'A changing voltage through an inductor, may create a
phase-lagged current.' If you measure the *instantaneous* current _before_
and after the 'phase-shifting' device You *will* see different values.
Draw a sine-wave, measure the instantaneous (not 'peak', or 'mean) amplitude
at any given point during full cycle. Now measure the instantaneous amplitude
at a slightly different phase of the waveform. Unless the two points you
chose are symmetric around a maxima or minima of the waveform the
*INSTANTANEOUS* amplitude _will_ be different.

This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.

And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.



Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in
his field. ; )

On 9/6/2011 11:59 PM, Bill wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.

Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in his
field. ; )

Of the two, Robert is the only one who should have warmed yours.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Bill" wrote in message ...
Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in
his field. ; )


===============
Must have been a farmer!

--

Eric

Yup! Here come's the old "I wasn't there but this is what really happened"
and "I know more than your Inspector does"

Maybe Dougy has learned something about not telling **you** what happened
**to you** from the other side of the world.

Funniest yet... Dougy has professed to the world, repeatedly, he has
filtered me and has his mouth gagged, for once.
Stamping his feet as he bangs his head against the wall, pacing, trying not
to burst a #14cu in his head.

Hook, line, and GFI.

---------
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
news Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.

Swingman wrote:
On 9/6/2011 11:59 PM, Bill wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.

Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in his
field. ; )

Of the two, Robert is the only one who should have warmed yours.

Yes, I would like to make it clear that his was the only reply I was
referring to (since it seemed like rant).

On 9/6/2011 11:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:46:05 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.

One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.

...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.


Well, I was trying to be nice... but yeah, that can happen too. Still
(IMHO) falls into the category of "doesn't know or doesn't understand
the NEC", though.

On 9/7/2011 12:59 AM, Bill wrote:

Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in his
field. ; )

A farmer, huh?

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:05:23 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/6/2011 11:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:46:05 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.

One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.

...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.


Well, I was trying to be nice... but yeah, that can happen too. Still
(IMHO) falls into the category of "doesn't know or doesn't understand
the NEC", though.

I had an inspector (not electrical) that knew the code, and even told me what
the code was, "but I want you to do it this way...". I didn't want to ****
off the inspector, so...

On 9/6/2011 5:51 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/5/2011 10:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Well you are absolutely wrong.

New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.

Only if it's in an unfinished basement (or unfinished portion of a
basement), or a crawl space. And that's not new, either: that provision
dates from the 2008 Code, maybe earlier.

So What do you say to that...

I say, you're mistaken.

Any basement circuit requires it.

Not true.

GFCI protection is required *only* in unfinished basements and
unfinished portions of partially finished basements:

"...receptacles ... in the locations specified ... shall have
ground-fault protection ... Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this
section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the
basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas,
work rooms, and the like ..." [2011 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]

I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
house was built that was what was called for.



On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100,
wrote:
Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
not a
current overload device.

That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?

motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.




And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 9/6/2011 10:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.

...


this is the most likely option . And he needs to be challenged. There
IS an appeals process and a committee.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 9/8/2011 2:03 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.

That's not what the NEC says.

In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:

[ sneck ]

... That's not unheard of, you
know: the Chicago electrical code, as I understand it, is *based* on the
NEC,

Chicago Electrical code bears only a vague resemblance to the NEC. Most
jurisdictions cite a particular year of the NEC (or of the BOMA -- Building
Owners and Managers Association -- code, which incorporates by reference
the NFPA -- National Fire Prevention Association -- code, which incorporates
the NEC by reference) as 'base', and then add any additional jurisdiction-
specific rules.

The Chicago building code specifications for electric wiring does *NOT*
do that. Everything is specified directly in the local code. And the
code itself is a 'swamp'. I once had a 'difference of opinion' with
a building inspector over an electrical issue, and we spent a good
five minutes citing code 'exceptions' back and forth at each other.
Chicago code does -not- say 'this section rules _unless_ the exception
in xyz applies', it says "if this condition is met, then section xyx does
not apply". Chasing the applicable exceptions to a given section is a
challenge. And the section that contains an exception to the base-line
rule, may itself be subject to an 'exception' in a far-removed section
of the code. "lather, rinse, repeat" applies.

I eventually prevailed over the electrical inspector, having reverse-
engineered the code one step further than the inspector had. And he
'went away unhappy', having _not_ collected a payoff over the purported
'code violation'.

Chicago electrical code allows some things that are forbidden by NEC,
and forbids other things that are allowed by the NEC. There is a fair
amount of 'coincidental' overlap on the basics, but a *lot* of difference
in the 'details'.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 01:05:35 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 9/6/2011 10:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.

...


this is the most likely option . And he needs to be challenged. There
IS an appeals process and a committee.

....and, of course, retaliation. He was eventually fired for incompetence (he
failed the exam three times before that, though).

On 9/8/2011 7:26 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/8/2011 2:03 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.

That's not what the NEC says.



Well, either way, i wasn't about to seek out the "single" outlet, so i
installed the gfci, had the inspector do his re-check, then removed it
and put in a standard outlet. I will NOT run a gfci on a sump pump period.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...

On 9/8/2011 7:26 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/8/2011 2:03 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.

That's not what the NEC says.



Well, either way, i wasn't about to seek out the "single" outlet, so i
installed the gfci, had the inspector do his re-check, then removed it
and put in a standard outlet. I will NOT run a gfci on a sump pump period.


=================
Nothing like a "secret off switch" on a sump pump to flood your basement.
Too bad these things don't come with audible alerts or otherwise remote
indicators!

--

Eric

My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...
My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
No idea why, but that's code.


they want the ground to be a (separate) safety backup for the circuit.