On 9/4/2011 9:53 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, wrote:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1

Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
chooses to use?

No differences: "Ground Fault Interrupter" vs "Ground Fault Circuit
Interrupter".

Otherwise know as an RCD "Residual Current Device", I believe other
countries may have other names for them.

Recently there is another device that is now required by code in
bedrooms in the many US locales, the AFCI "Arc Fault Circuit
Interrupter" ... in the form of an AFCI c'bkr in the service panel. One
of the big reasons for this requirement is the recent proliferations of
ceiling fans placed in bedroom on lighting circuits, not all properly
installed as a retrofit.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 9/4/11 12:42 AM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.


That's the standard that some contractors I've hired use. What's sad is
that their prices are higher than what perfect fine should really get
(IMO). When I hire something done by a professional, I don't expect it
to be done perfectly fine unless I'm offered a choice.


Great. Completely out of context, but I agree.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

You have a problem Dave.
Maybe a bad ground on the fan, water in the loc it is.

On 9/4/2011 9:09 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100,
wrote:
Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
current overload device.

That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?

On 9/4/2011 10:04 AM, Nova wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:29 -0400, "J.
wrote:

In ,
says...

-MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400,
wrote:
Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
the cost given their benefit.

Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
a day eh?g

If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)

Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?

That would trip a circuit breaker. If there's a ground fault at startup
something's wrong.


Due to the inductance of the windings of larger motors there is a
slight delay in the current flow between the hot and neutral leads.
This delay can cause a false trip of a GFCI.

In the early days of GFCI, even nearby electrical storms were
responsible for nuisance GFCI trips.

The advent of "hospital grade" GFCI devices advanced the quality of the
devices to where that is no longer the problem it once was, although it
still happens and is always something to consider.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 9/4/11 7:55 AM, HeyBub wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400,
wrote:
Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
the cost given their benefit.

Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
a day eh?g

If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)

Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?


I don't know where this is going, but I'm assuming GFCI outlets are
rated for different current loads and applications, just like standard
outlets.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
GFI is specifically for ground fault.
So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.

On 9/4/2011 11:04 AM, Nova wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:29 -0400, "J.
wrote:

In ,
says...

-MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400,
wrote:
Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
the cost given their benefit.

Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
a day eh?g

If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)

Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?

That would trip a circuit breaker. If there's a ground fault at startup
something's wrong.


Due to the inductance of the windings of larger motors there is a
slight delay in the current flow between the hot and neutral leads.
This delay can cause a false trip of a GFCI.

On 9/4/2011 10:09 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 12:42 AM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.


That's the standard that some contractors I've hired use. What's sad is
that their prices are higher than what perfect fine should really get
(IMO). When I hire something done by a professional, I don't expect it
to be done perfectly fine unless I'm offered a choice.


Great. Completely out of context, but I agree.

Some solutions are considered "perfect enough" ... an oxymoron if ever
there was.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Around my parts, grounds must be crimped together to join.


On 9/4/2011 5:36 AM, Bill wrote:
Thanks for helping me out folks.

I installed the outlet and I'm getting a green light from the outlet
tester Swingman suggested that I get, so life is good. For the time
being, the switch for the garbage disposal will turn a lamp on and off. : )

Splicing together three guage 12 ground wires under pitiful conditions
seemed to be the hardest part. I think it was Mike M. who said last year
that one can do it even if the wires are not straight. Gosh, I can't.
But I did end up with a really nice-lookin' splice--and it was a good
thing I did when I did, because wire was getting scarce : )

The rest of the garbage disposal install should be like a piece-of-cake,
or something else if you don't like cake.

Bill

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
wrote:

I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
GFI is specifically for ground fault.
So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.

Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:35:49 -0400, Dave wrote:
Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?

Apologies, should have thought about it a little more before asking.
Most device plugs, if not all in bathroom are two pronged and they are
what a bathroom GFI would protect against in the case of a water born
circuit.

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:41:21 +0100, Stuart
wrote:

occasionally trips the GFI when I turn the fan on.

It's faulty.

Guess it might be. The fan has been in the bathroom for several years
so condensation could well have damaged the fan. I'll toss it just to
be safe. Thanks

On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.

That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.

On 9/4/2011 9:09 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100,
wrote:
Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
current overload device.

That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?

GFCIs are tripped by a current imbalance: if the currrent on the hot and
the neutral differ by more than 20mA, it trips.

Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.

On 9/4/2011 10:53 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, wrote:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1

Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
chooses to use?

Same thing exactly: Ground Fault [Circuit] Interrupter.

On 9/4/2011 11:35 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspamnospam.nospam.com
wrote:

I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
GFI is specifically for ground fault.
So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.

Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?

Absolutely. A GFCI does not need a ground conductor at all in order to
trip. They work by sensing *only* an imbalance in the supply and return
currents (in the black and white wires, respectively). *Anything* that
causes those currents to differ by more than 20mA will trip a GFCI,
regardless of the presence or absence of an equipment grounding
conductor either in the appliance cord or the premises wiring.

No, the neutral is still the ground.

BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage.
Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.

My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...
My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
No idea why, but that's code.



On 9/4/2011 11:35 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspamnospam.nospam.com
wrote:

I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
GFI is specifically for ground fault.
So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.

Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?

On Sep 3, 4:40*pm, Bill wrote:

there were no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming
out the junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit.
**Scotch tape* was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on
the junction box.... *

Redo the electrical and install an outlet for the disposal. Assume the
previous "electrician" wired it to a wall switch above the sink - if
not, you should do so.

You can, of course, "hard-wire" the disposal to the junction box, but
installing a GFCI duplex outlet (or a standard outlet) would be much
better from a re-sale perspective. Anything a Home Inspector can
readily see should LOOK "right." Anything that doesn't gets flagged
and, then, you have to call a licensed electrician to "fix it" prior
to closing - no fun and expensive!

On 9/4/2011 12:55 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
No, the neutral is still the ground.

Nonsense. Neutral and ground are two different things. A circuit using
only two wires has *no* ground.

BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage.
Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.

My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...

No, it was not. It was wired without a ground.

My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
No idea why, but that's code.

For safety.

On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.

That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.


It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.

An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently
because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug
which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't all
of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple because
there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in their
stuff all the way.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.

That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.


It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.

Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
decided is *not* safe.

In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
is easier, *and* complies with the Code.

In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
*Anything* that
causes those currents to differ by more than 20mA will

I've seen that figure quoted twice; it depends on the rating of the device.

The one on the incomer to our house, previously mentioned, is rated at
30mA. The one I use on my electronics workbench for equipment I am working
on is rated at 10mA

--
Stuart Winsor

On 9/4/11 2:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.

That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.


It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.

Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
decided is *not* safe.


Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and
neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that
quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and
fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the
experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for
this one, limited and specific situation.

There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an
experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are
pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)


In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
is easier, *and* complies with the Code.

Installing a receptacle was my advice.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote in :


It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against
it.

An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently
because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug
which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't
all of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple
because there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in
their stuff all the way.


Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled
away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets
are trying to avoid.

I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)

Puckdropper

Hoosierpopi wrote:
On Sep 3, 4:40 pm, wrote:

there were no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming
out the junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit.
*Scotch tape* was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on
the junction box....

Redo the electrical and install an outlet for the disposal. Assume the
previous "electrician" wired it to a wall switch above the sink - if
not, you should do so.

That's a good point about the switch. I'm writing that down so I don't
forget to check. I finished installing the new outlet about 4am last
night. It wasn't easy to get to, and there wasn't enough romex available
to offer me many alternatives. Now, I can try to install the garbage
disposal...



You can, of course, "hard-wire" the disposal to the junction box, but
installing a GFCI duplex outlet (or a standard outlet) would be much
better from a re-sale perspective. Anything a Home Inspector can
readily see should LOOK "right." Anything that doesn't gets flagged
and, then, you have to call a licensed electrician to "fix it" prior
to closing - no fun and expensive!

Actually, when we bought the house 2 years ago, we pointed out the lack
of a GFCI outlet near the sink and the sellers put one in. So now, there
is a 15A GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit/circuit breaker. Should it be
swapped out with a 15A circuit breaker because of this? One could argue
that the C'Breaker IS protecting "the wire", no? Or is this a potential
hazard?

Thanks!
Bill

Swingman wrote:
On 9/4/2011 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
Thanks for helping me out folks.

As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise.


One man's noise is another man's music. You carry around an outlet
tester and speak with inspectors in the course of your work. I do not
have the same background. I learned more than 1 or 2 useful things and
also received a valuable suggestion to check the wiring of my switch!

Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation. I was going to
reply to the message requesting which outlet tester you recommended.
Of course, your reply was more informative and more interesting than one
I would have been able to write. I don't read the threads that seem
like "noise" to me--and being a "(rural) country blues" fan, I have a
really good ear for noise! I have a banjo and a fiddle too, so I Really
know somemthing about noise...

Cheers,
Bill

On 9/4/2011 3:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 2:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.

That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.


It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.

Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
decided is *not* safe.


Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and
neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that
quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and
fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the
experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for
this one, limited and specific situation.

Just the same, I don't imagine that they knowingly advise anyone to
violate the NEC.

There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an
experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are
pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)


In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
is easier, *and* complies with the Code.

Installing a receptacle was my advice.

And mine.

On 9/4/2011 4:00 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 9/4/2011 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
Thanks for helping me out folks.

As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise.


One man's noise is another man's music. You carry around an outlet
tester and speak with inspectors in the course of your work. I do not
have the same background. I learned more than 1 or 2 useful things and
also received a valuable suggestion to check the wiring of my switch!

Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation.

Where do you see "aggravation" exhibited? AMMOF, do you not know what "
" is?

As for the noise, stick around ... this is an electrical thread on the
wRec. As such it stands a historical chance of still being alive weeks
from now.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 9/4/2011 3:37 PM, Bill wrote:
Actually, when we bought the house 2 years ago, we pointed out the lack
of a GFCI outlet near the sink and the sellers put one in. So now, there
is a 15A GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit/circuit breaker. Should it be
swapped out with a 15A circuit breaker because of this? One could argue
that the C'Breaker IS protecting "the wire", no? Or is this a potential
hazard?

Not usually a problem - where the branch circuit supplies one duplex, or
two or more single receptacles - or a code violation in most locales. A
15A receptacle, standard or GFCI, is rated for 20A throughput.

Basically, it should be impossible by virtue of the plug configuration,
by today's standards, to plug anything in that would be in violation.

CAVEAT: again, this may not apply to all jurisdictions, as even the
exceptions may vary from place to place, IME.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation.

Where do you see "aggravation" exhibited? AMMOF, do you not know what "
" is?

As for the noise, stick around ... this is an electrical thread on the
wRec. As such it stands a historical chance of still being alive weeks
from now.


My misunderstanding, sarcasm doesn't always come-across well here.
BTW "" came across as some smirky-icon on my computer. I couldn't see
through his poker-face, but I'd say he held a pair of jacks.

On 9/4/2011 5:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/4/2011 5:06 PM, Swingman wrote:

Basically, it should be impossible by virtue of the plug
configuration, by today's standards, to plug anything
in that would be in violation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

For the AR's ... that was intended to read "would be a danger".

Gotta be careful, in an electrical thread on the wRec, that you don't
start a fire!



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

-MIKE- wrote :
On 9/4/11 7:55 AM, HeyBub wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400,
wrote:
Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
the cost given their benefit.

Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
a day eh?g

If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)

Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?


I don't know where this is going, but I'm assuming GFCI outlets are
rated for different current loads and applications, just like standard
outlets.

Yes they are.
1 For different applications ie Medical, domestic, Industrial etc.
2 There are different rules in ifferent jurisdictions and countries.

--
John G.

John G wrote in
. au:


Yes they are.
1 For different applications ie Medical, domestic, Industrial etc.
2 There are different rules in ifferent jurisdictions and countries.


I'm not looking forward to the day you have to update the firmware in your
GFCI outlet.

Puckdropper

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 00:34:26 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

I'm surprised it is allowed to use a flexible cord which, because of the
nature of the device, has such a high probability of laying in water at
some point if the 36" cord is merely plugged in. I won't let the cord
rest on the bottom surface.

Admittedly, the cord appears to be of very good quality. Surely it is
waterproof unless it cracks.

A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnect which the plug in
meets code for a disposal.

Mike M

On 9/4/2011 8:31 PM, Mike M wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 00:34:26 -0400,
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

I'm surprised it is allowed to use a flexible cord which, because of the
nature of the device, has such a high probability of laying in water at
some point if the 36" cord is merely plugged in. I won't let the cord
rest on the bottom surface.

Admittedly, the cord appears to be of very good quality. Surely it is
waterproof unless it cracks.

A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnectwhich the plug in
meets code for a disposal.

Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC,
Article 422.31(B))

Mikey posted it first!


"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...

On 9/4/2011 3:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 2:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
quesiton.

GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
attach
this to the romex in my junction box?

Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
aluminum.

Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.

A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.

That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.


It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.

Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
decided is *not* safe.


Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and
neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that
quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and
fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the
experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for
this one, limited and specific situation.

Just the same, I don't imagine that they knowingly advise anyone to
violate the NEC.

There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an
experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are
pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)


In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
is easier, *and* complies with the Code.

Installing a receptacle was my advice.

And mine.

Ground pin is always the longest. Your point cannot likely happen.

--------------------
"Puckdropper" wrote in message
eb.com...
Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled
away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets
are trying to avoid.

I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)

Puckdropper

Neutral and ground are the same thing at only one point in your house. A
second box in the same building with neutral connected to ground would
violate that safety rule.

Neutral carries current during load. Ground should never carry anything in
your house. Two ground points can cause the ground wire to share load and
cause many different problems. Simple example: You don't want current
flowing through your tub frame to the taps when you are standing in it.

--------------
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
...

No, the neutral is still the ground.

BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage.
Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.

My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...
My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
No idea why, but that's code.



On 9/4/2011 11:35 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspamnospam.nospam.com
wrote:

I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
GFI is specifically for ground fault.
So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.

Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?

"Dave" wrote in message ...

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:41:21 +0100, Stuart
wrote:

occasionally trips the GFI when I turn the fan on.

It's faulty.

Guess it might be. The fan has been in the bathroom for several years
so condensation could well have damaged the fan. I'll toss it just to
be safe. Thanks

=================
You may be wasting your money and effort.

Often this is a result of insulation cuts and nicks (drywall installation
etc.) that do not show up until you shut off an inductive motor or other
device.
When the circuit is broken those devices occasionally produce a high voltage
spike (counter EMF) and then the bad insulation spot shows up where the high
voltage arcs to ground or other wiring. This can trip your GFCI breaker
where it never tripped before.

This is not likely your fan but rather your wiring in the connection boxes.
If you want to replace the fan anyway, then it would be a good step to find
this annoyance. Disturbing the position of the wiring to change this out may
solve the problem also.

--

Eric

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...

The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.

=====

No ground on my sink via the ABS drain pipes or the PEX supply tubes
either.

Then it's grounded though the water in the pipes. And the ground wire
to the disposal.

To get a shock you need a voltage _difference_. Not gonna happen with a
garbage disposal full of water.

==================
Geeeez! I hope you don't actually believe that one.
Water is not a good or reliable ground. Pure water is a complete insulator.

Not acceptable, not safe and will not pass the safety requirement in any
code (use of water for ground). Copper pipes can make good conductors but
not to be relied on in most cases.

--

Eric

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...

The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.

=====

No ground on my sink via the ABS drain pipes or the PEX supply tubes
either.

Then it's grounded though the water in the pipes. And the ground wire
to the disposal.

To get a shock you need a voltage _difference_. Not gonna happen with a
garbage disposal full of water.

==================
Geeeez! I hope you don't actually believe that one.
Water is not a good or reliable ground. Pure water is a complete insulator.

Not acceptable, not safe and will not pass the safety requirement in any
code (use of water for ground). Copper pipes can make good conductors but
not to be relied on in most cases.

If the water is a good enough conductor for you to get injured through
it then it's good enough to keep the sink and disposal at ground
potential.

This isn't the radio in the bathtub scenario. The current source is
buried deep in the guts of the disposal and the shortest path is going
to be inside the disposal, not through the water in the sink that is
likely to shock you.

But you go on being afraid of garbage disposals. The rest of us have
lives.