"Nonny" wrote in message
...


Here in the US, our favorite prayer is called the Obama Prayer. Psalm
109:8".

"May his days be few; and may another take his office."


We can hope but he will very likely be reelected.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:35:54 -0800, the infamous "Nonny"
scrawled the following:


"RonB" wrote in message
...
tool that can in any way injure.

Maybe the Feds should require all saws to have a Saw Stop
device
installed.

Greg G.

I suspect that is exactly what the government will do someday.
But
not until they have over-specified a good safety feature into a
$5,000
government kludged mess.

Be careful what you pray for!

RonB

Here in the US, our favorite prayer is called the Obama Prayer.
Psalm 109:8".

"May his days be few; and may another take his office."

AMEN, Brother!


--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:53:49 -0800, the infamous "CW"
scrawled the following:


"Nonny" wrote in message
...


Here in the US, our favorite prayer is called the Obama Prayer. Psalm
109:8".

"May his days be few; and may another take his office."


We can hope but he will very likely be reelected.

SADIST! Go wash your mouth out with soap, you shameless foo!

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Nonny" wrote in message
...


Here in the US, our favorite prayer is called the Obama Prayer. Psalm
109:8".

"May his days be few; and may another take his office."


We can hope but he will very likely be reelected.




I gather you really would like to see S. Palin up there on capital hill,
huh????
IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

"Bill" wrote in message
IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

That is very true, but this guy is not helping at all, he is making them
worse with wild spending. He's already making Clinton look good and may
even make Carter look good.

Ed Pawlowski said:


"Bill" wrote in message
IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

That is very true, but this guy is not helping at all, he is making them
worse with wild spending. He's already making Clinton look good and may
even make Carter look good.

I'm not happy about much of the spending either, but you have to
remember, the bailouts have to be paid back. Some already have been,
and the stimulus money is already going into road and infrastructure
repairs in my area. It had to be paid for one way or another...
Is it a permanent fix? Not even close. We've been outsourced.



Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski said:


"Bill" wrote in message
IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

That is very true, but this guy is not helping at all, he is making them
worse with wild spending. He's already making Clinton look good and may
even make Carter look good.

I'm not happy about much of the spending either, but you have to
remember, the bailouts have to be paid back. Some already have been,
and the stimulus money is already going into road and infrastructure
repairs in my area. It had to be paid for one way or another...
Is it a permanent fix? Not even close. We've been outsourced.

Yes, said. It's been a long time coming. Of course, we don't seem to have
the "restraint" to "pay back" anything. We'll deflate the currency.... I
need
to buy a car now and I notice that they cost alot more than they did last
time
around--and my salary has not went up (even close to) the same rate...

Bill said:


"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .
Ed Pawlowski said:


"Bill" wrote in message
IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

That is very true, but this guy is not helping at all, he is making them
worse with wild spending. He's already making Clinton look good and may
even make Carter look good.

I'm not happy about much of the spending either, but you have to
remember, the bailouts have to be paid back. Some already have been,
and the stimulus money is already going into road and infrastructure
repairs in my area. It had to be paid for one way or another...
Is it a permanent fix? Not even close. We've been outsourced.

Yes, said. It's been a long time coming. Of course, we don't seem to have
the "restraint" to "pay back" anything. We'll deflate the currency.... I
need
to buy a car now and I notice that they cost alot more than they did last
time
around--and my salary has not went up (even close to) the same rate...

Tell me about it. Been through three different professions that were
supposed to be" recession proof." They weren't. I guarantee you if
we started importing cheap lawyers and politicians it would all change
_overnight_.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Tell me about it. Been through three different professions that were
supposed to be" recession proof." They weren't. I guarantee you if
we started importing cheap lawyers and politicians it would all change
_overnight_.


If we imported cheap lawyers, we would have even more litigation. Cheap
lawyers aren't the answer. I have been working at his message for a while,
and I've come to the conclusion that I don't have lots of answers. I do
generally believe that economic principles will prevail. I don't like alot
of what I see.

Bill

On Nov 13, 7:34*pm, Doug Winterburn wrote:
Greg G. wrote:
John Grossbohlin said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
. ..
charlie said:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...113abrk-amputa....

Ouch! * Well, let's see...
A finger tip costs $16,000 to re-attach.
Down to the knuckle runs $27,000.
What do you think this is going to cost?

I think the problem may have stemmed from what _was_ IN the cooler
before he set the saw up there. (SS: this oughta fire some up...)
Many years ago my father told a similar story. A guy he worked with was
using a table top portable saw and it fell off the table while he was
sawing... He tried to catch it and sawed his fingers off during his effort.
I never forgot that story and any time I used a small saw I clamped it down.

Ouch again. The movie Sicko mentions a guy who committed an absolute
cardinal sin while using a small saw and removed several fingers.

One thing I learned as a kid while using soldering irons and knives
was to never grab for a falling tool that can in any way injure.

Maybe the Feds should require all saws to have a Saw Stop device
installed.

Greg G.

So, now the feds should tell me I can't use my non "Saw Stop" tablesaw
'cause I might hurt myself?

I wonder how they protect folks from their tablesaws in Cuba?

They use hand saws. :-)

Luigi

On Nov 14, 5:07*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
Greg G. wrote:
John Grossbohlin said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
. ..
charlie said:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...113abrk-amputa....

Ouch! * Well, let's see...
A finger tip costs $16,000 to re-attach.
Down to the knuckle runs $27,000.
What do you think this is going to cost?

I think the problem may have stemmed from what _was_ IN the cooler
before he set the saw up there. (SS: this oughta fire some up...)

Many years ago my father told a similar story. A guy he worked with
was using a table top portable saw and it fell off the table while
he was sawing... He tried to catch it and sawed his fingers off
during his effort. I never forgot that story and any time I used a
small saw I clamped it down.

Ouch again. The movie Sicko mentions a guy who committed an absolute
cardinal sin while using a small saw and removed several fingers.

One thing I learned as a kid while using soldering irons and knives
was to never grab for a falling tool that can in any way injure.

Maybe the Feds should require all saws to have a Saw Stop device
installed.

Women often wear skirts. *When they drop something their conditioned
response is to spread their legs and catch it on the skirt. *Men do not wear
skirts (except in Scotland and Greece) and their conditioned response is to
put their legs together to catch it. *Any man who has dropped a needle knows
why the female strategy is superior.

There is a lesson here somewhere but damned if I know what it is.

It is that someone has read Tom Sawyer. Or was it Huckleberry Finn?

Luigi

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:56:36 -0500, the infamous "Ed Pawlowski"
scrawled the following:


"Bill" wrote in message
IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

That is very true, but this guy is not helping at all, he is making them
worse with wild spending. He's already making Clinton look good and may
even make Carter look good.

Hell, Shrub and Carter have -already- celebrated that they can no
longer be considered the worst President in the history of the USA.

[No, I won't be voting for Sarah again (actually, it was for McCain),
but YES, I'm buying her book to show my support for her and help her
get out from under the personal debt the fsking Demonrats put her in.
GO SARAH! I just hope she stays out of politics, rooting from the
sidelines instead. It's amazing how much she scares the Demonrats,
huh? Even OUT of office. Har!]

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:46:45 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:


"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .

Tell me about it. Been through three different professions that were
supposed to be" recession proof." They weren't. I guarantee you if
we started importing cheap lawyers and politicians it would all change
_overnight_.

I find it hard to believe that it could get worse, and I'm waiting for
TAR 2.0 to happen. (The American public seems to be gearing up for a
second revolution, and I'm guessing that something like this Obamacare
bill will be the catalyst to give 'em the critical mass necessary to
explode into it. Got weapons, ammo, and a bunker? How's your pantry
stocked?


If we imported cheap lawyers, we would have even more litigation. Cheap
lawyers aren't the answer. I have been working at his message for a while,
and I've come to the conclusion that I don't have lots of answers. I do
generally believe that economic principles will prevail. I don't like alot
of what I see.

Putting a season on lawyers would help a whole lot. Can you imagine
what people would pay for a lawyer tag this next hunting season? evil
grinne

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:31:29 -0800 (PST), the infamous Luigi Zanasi
scrawled the following:

On Nov 13, 7:34*pm, Doug Winterburn wrote:
Greg G. wrote:
John Grossbohlin said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
. ..
charlie said:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...113abrk-amputa...

Ouch! * Well, let's see...
A finger tip costs $16,000 to re-attach.
Down to the knuckle runs $27,000.
What do you think this is going to cost?

I think the problem may have stemmed from what _was_ IN the cooler
before he set the saw up there. (SS: this oughta fire some up...)
Many years ago my father told a similar story. A guy he worked with was
using a table top portable saw and it fell off the table while he was
sawing... He tried to catch it and sawed his fingers off during his effort.
I never forgot that story and any time I used a small saw I clamped it down.

Ouch again. The movie Sicko mentions a guy who committed an absolute
cardinal sin while using a small saw and removed several fingers.

One thing I learned as a kid while using soldering irons and knives
was to never grab for a falling tool that can in any way injure.

Maybe the Feds should require all saws to have a Saw Stop device
installed.

Greg G.

So, now the feds should tell me I can't use my non "Saw Stop" tablesaw
'cause I might hurt myself?

I wonder how they protect folks from their tablesaws in Cuba?

They use hand saws. :-)

Uh, how can a handsaw protect one from a feral tablesaw, Luigi? Feral
saws are QUICK!

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Nonny" wrote in message
...


Here in the US, our favorite prayer is called the Obama Prayer. Psalm
109:8".

"May his days be few; and may another take his office."


We can hope but he will very likely be reelected.




I gather you really would like to see S. Palin up there on capital hill,
huh????

Pracicing your mind reading again? Give it up. you're not very good at it.


IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

Show me where I said anything about blaming anyone. In any case, blame for
what?
Nope, Kreskin you're not.

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Nonny" wrote in message
...


Here in the US, our favorite prayer is called the Obama Prayer. Psalm
109:8".

"May his days be few; and may another take his office."


We can hope but he will very likely be reelected.




I gather you really would like to see S. Palin up there on capital hill,
huh????

Pracicing your mind reading again? Give it up. you're not very good at it.


IMO, we have too many "issues" in this country to blame them all on one
person, or one party.

Show me where I said anything about blaming anyone. In any case, blame for
what?
Nope, Kreskin you're not.


CW,

You are FAR too argumentative for me. I was just passing by, and I'll be
by-passing this topic.
Ya'll enjoy yourselves.

Bill

Bill said:

... FAR too argumentative for me. I was just passing by, and I'll be
by-passing this topic.
Ya'll enjoy yourselves.

Well, Bill. Some of us old curmudgeons can be rather abrasive, don't
let it get to you. A thick skin helps when hanging around the wreck's
virtual water cooler.

I do find it interesting that in a group dedicated to woodworking, an
on-topic post garners 1 to 20 replies and yet the much maligned OT
posts frequently number 150 posts.

There are some pretty smart, interesting people here but if you think
it's bad here try visiting an engineering group. Yowza!


Greg G.

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:33:11 -0500, Greg wrote:

I do find it interesting that in a group dedicated to woodworking, an
on-topic post garners 1 to 20 replies and yet the much maligned OT
posts frequently number 150 posts.

Nothing unusual about that. Woodworking replies within reason are
relatively limited. OT posts can be virtually unlimited.

"Greg G." wrote:

There are some pretty smart, interesting people here but if you
think
it's bad here try visiting an engineering group. Yowza!

By definition engineers are trained to never make a decision but to
keep "massaging" a project forever trying to "improve" the end result.

One of the reasons I walked away from it.

Lew

said:

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:33:11 -0500, Greg wrote:

I do find it interesting that in a group dedicated to woodworking, an
on-topic post garners 1 to 20 replies and yet the much maligned OT
posts frequently number 150 posts.

Nothing unusual about that. Woodworking replies within reason are
relatively limited. OT posts can be virtually unlimited.

They do tend to meander quite a bit, jump into sub threads and various
flame wars. Not a complaint, just an observation.

And here I thought everyone was asleep as I sit here with this:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...s/Remember.jpg
watching Southpark in a tiny window, messing with SolidWorks, and
deciding what to do on yet another birthday.


Greg G.

Lew Hodgett said:


"Greg G." wrote:

There are some pretty smart, interesting people here but if you
think
it's bad here try visiting an engineering group. Yowza!

By definition engineers are trained to never make a decision but to
keep "massaging" a project forever trying to "improve" the end result.

One of the reasons I walked away from it.

And the bean counters don't help much in that regard either.


Greg G.

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:11:36 -0500, Greg wrote:
They do tend to meander quite a bit, jump into sub threads and various
flame wars. Not a complaint, just an observation.

Be pretty damned boring otherwise. Hell, look at all the laughs we
would have missed if all diggerop talked about is wood.

said:

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:11:36 -0500, Greg wrote:
They do tend to meander quite a bit, jump into sub threads and various
flame wars. Not a complaint, just an observation.

Be pretty damned boring otherwise. Hell, look at all the laughs we
would have missed if all diggerop talked about is wood.

Aye, mate. He'd be a bloody good bloke to down a few stubbies with.
I've passed a joke or two along to the local bar maids. It's truly a
colorful menagerie.


Greg G.

Greg G." wrote:

And the bean counters don't help much in that regard either.

Bean counters AKA: Product Planning

A major part of the American automotive industries' problem.

Lew



Lew

Lew Hodgett said:

Greg G." wrote:

And the bean counters don't help much in that regard either.

Bean counters AKA: Product Planning

A major part of the American automotive industries' problem.

They've a lot of problems at this point. It seems as of late that they
spend more time modifying and moving minor parts around than building
durability and ease of maintenance into their products. Stylists on
steroids, 1000 different plastic lamp assemblies, late getting on
board with efficiency and mileage improvements, fit and finish issues.

We used to have both GM and Ford assembly plants here, and I've been
in both. I remember when GM first retrofitted the Doraville plant
with robotics to construct a new Oldsmobile model. Yet the Camry ate
it for lunch in performance, mileage, comfort, and durability. The
cost of living in this country, and thus the cost of labor, are
killing us in the world markets we now have to compete in - which
includes the US. The plant closed in early 2009, after GM spent $150
million upgrading it in 2003, and most of the workers fled to other
plants around the country, one commenting that they felt like gypsies.
Many were foreclosed on when the plants shut down and they were unable
to replace the $28/hour pay. The plant now sits idle with weeds
reclaiming the pavement and GM refuses to sell at less than prime
rates in a depressed market. Where's Ed Cole when you need him?
http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/ga/2...e_gypsies.html

Similarly, the Ford Hapeville Assembly Plant ceased production in
October 2006. The city was attempting to revitalize the area but the
housing and economy bust shelved any concrete plans.

I simply don't see how anyone realistically expects us to compete with
50 cent an hour workers and countries who have no safety concerns,
pollution standards, or labor laws. CEO's in this country are now
complaining about publicity over the child labor they exploit in the
third world to produce products they import.

Who is going to buy anything when they have no jobs or income?
WalMart doesn't cut it, everyone can't be an attorney or doctor, and
much of the manual labor "services industry" stuff has been taken over
by immigrant labor - with the tacit assistance of business. Phone
support, computer programming outsourced. IBM has an entire line of
CAD products produced in India.

Man, things sure were a lot simpler 30 years ago...


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:
Lew Hodgett said:

Greg G." wrote:

And the bean counters don't help much in that regard either.

Bean counters AKA: Product Planning

A major part of the American automotive industries' problem.

They've a lot of problems at this point. It seems as of late that they
spend more time modifying and moving minor parts around than building
durability and ease of maintenance into their products. Stylists on
steroids, 1000 different plastic lamp assemblies, late getting on
board with efficiency and mileage improvements, fit and finish issues.

We used to have both GM and Ford assembly plants here, and I've been
in both. I remember when GM first retrofitted the Doraville plant
with robotics to construct a new Oldsmobile model. Yet the Camry ate
it for lunch in performance, mileage, comfort, and durability. The
cost of living in this country, and thus the cost of labor, are
killing us in the world markets we now have to compete in - which
includes the US. The plant closed in early 2009, after GM spent $150
million upgrading it in 2003, and most of the workers fled to other
plants around the country, one commenting that they felt like gypsies.
Many were foreclosed on when the plants shut down and they were unable
to replace the $28/hour pay. The plant now sits idle with weeds
reclaiming the pavement and GM refuses to sell at less than prime
rates in a depressed market. Where's Ed Cole when you need him?
http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/ga/2...e_gypsies.html

Similarly, the Ford Hapeville Assembly Plant ceased production in
October 2006. The city was attempting to revitalize the area but the
housing and economy bust shelved any concrete plans.

I simply don't see how anyone realistically expects us to compete with
50 cent an hour workers and countries who have no safety concerns,
pollution standards, or labor laws. CEO's in this country are now
complaining about publicity over the child labor they exploit in the
third world to produce products they import.

Who is going to buy anything when they have no jobs or income?
WalMart doesn't cut it, everyone can't be an attorney or doctor, and
much of the manual labor "services industry" stuff has been taken over
by immigrant labor - with the tacit assistance of business. Phone
support, computer programming outsourced. IBM has an entire line of
CAD products produced in India.

India? I thought IBM's CAD product was Catia, which is a product of Avions
Marcel Dassault.

Man, things sure were a lot simpler 30 years ago...

The thing is, we can't compete on the world market for stuff that doesn't
require special expertise to make. There isn't any good short term
solution--if we close the borders the rest of the world will do the same and
the market for US goods and services will disappear. Long term we have to
encourage innovation instead of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
In many ways the US is one of the _least_ innovative countries in the
world--look at aerospace--the Russians brought five designes to completion
to our one--yes, our best were and are better than their best, but they were
trying stuff that we weren't. We've been talking about Wing In Ground
Effect for decades, they've been flying them for decades. How about
shipbuilding--why is the fastest ship in the world made in Australia?
Consumer electronics--how is is that the Japanese grasped the concept that
"good enough" consumer video would sell and then brought VHS and Beta to
market, while Ampex, which was technologically capable of doing that as far
back as the '60s, never _tried_ it? And a little Japanese vacuum bottle
that is absolutely brilliant--the inside is exactly sized so that you can
drop a can of soda or beer into it and keep the can cold for hours. Thermos
could have made that at any time during their history so why didn't anybody
think to _try_ it? The thing that put Japanese consumer electronics on the
map wasn't cheap stuff, it was an expensive little 12-inch TV that could run
off the lighter plug in a car--everybody who saw those first little Sonys
was fascinated by them and the US electronics industry had _nothing_ like
that. Even stupid little bric-a-brac--I've got a set of little LED lights
that stick to your fingertips with rubber bands that are good for
light-painting and make a fun stocking stuffer (unfortunately the rubber
bands that come with them suck but rubber bands aren't hard to find) that
some US company could have been making ages ago.

I don't know why this is the case--just that it is. We don't encourage
companies to bring high-risk products to market, we don't encourage basic
research, we don't encourage applied research, and we keep moaning and
groaning about how other countries do a better job of "science education"
while most people who graduate with technical degrees end up either teaching
school or doing something unrelated to their degree.

And then there's general incompetence--I remember the materials people at
Enormous Aerospace telling us that we couldn't use this or that or the other
because it made seals swell--one day somebody asked the materials guy why we
cared if it made seals swell, and he replied "because it indicates that
there is something going on that could potentially degrade the seal".
Wasn't until I had left that industry that I found out that the tests the
idiots were using came from the automotive industry and the purpose of the
test wasn't to find out _if_ the seals swell but to make sure that they
swelled by the _right_ _amount_ and that all the stuff that the idiots had
been telling us that we couldn't use made the seals swell because it was
_supposed_ to make the seals swell. But it's not just big business--I used
to work for a woman who had visions of becoming a software vendor--the
trouble is that she didn't know squat about the computer industry or about
software and she thought that she could play for cheap with something that
had started out as a simple little program to do one stupid thing, and grown
into an unmaintainable monster by adding this feature and that feature and
the other feature until it was a few hundred thousand lines of code.

Sorry for the rant.

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:11:36 -0500, the infamous Greg
scrawled the following:

said:

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:33:11 -0500, Greg wrote:

I do find it interesting that in a group dedicated to woodworking, an
on-topic post garners 1 to 20 replies and yet the much maligned OT
posts frequently number 150 posts.

Nothing unusual about that. Woodworking replies within reason are
relatively limited. OT posts can be virtually unlimited.

They do tend to meander quite a bit, jump into sub threads and various
flame wars. Not a complaint, just an observation.

And here I thought everyone was asleep as I sit here with this:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...s/Remember.jpg
watching Southpark in a tiny window, messing with SolidWorks, and
deciding what to do on yet another birthday.

HBD, ya damned lush.

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

Larry Jaques said:

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:11:36 -0500, the infamous Greg
scrawled the following:

said:

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:33:11 -0500, Greg wrote:

I do find it interesting that in a group dedicated to woodworking, an
on-topic post garners 1 to 20 replies and yet the much maligned OT
posts frequently number 150 posts.

Nothing unusual about that. Woodworking replies within reason are
relatively limited. OT posts can be virtually unlimited.

They do tend to meander quite a bit, jump into sub threads and various
flame wars. Not a complaint, just an observation.

And here I thought everyone was asleep as I sit here with this:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...s/Remember.jpg
watching Southpark in a tiny window, messing with SolidWorks, and
deciding what to do on yet another birthday.

HBD, ya damned lush.

Yeah, I thought of that. Couple times a year thing, however. Bought
the Bourbon last week under advise from someone in the group, so
thought I give her a whirl. Also thought some might enjoy the
"Remember the Alamo" shot glass picked up somewhere in Texas.
Thanks for the wishes, Larry!


Greg G.

J. Clarke said:

Greg G. wrote:

Who is going to buy anything when they have no jobs or income?
WalMart doesn't cut it, everyone can't be an attorney or doctor, and
much of the manual labor "services industry" stuff has been taken over
by immigrant labor - with the tacit assistance of business. Phone
support, computer programming outsourced. IBM has an entire line of
CAD products produced in India.

India? I thought IBM's CAD product was Catia, which is a product of Avions
Marcel Dassault.

Actually, Catia is the IBM line, Dassault Systems is SolidWorks Corp.


Man, things sure were a lot simpler 30 years ago...

The thing is, we can't compete on the world market for stuff that doesn't
require special expertise to make. There isn't any good short term
solution--if we close the borders the rest of the world will do the same and
the market for US goods and services will disappear. Long term we have to
encourage innovation instead of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
In many ways the US is one of the _least_ innovative countries in the
world--look at aerospace--the Russians brought five designes to completion
to our one--yes, our best were and are better than their best, but they were
trying stuff that we weren't. We've been talking about Wing In Ground
Effect for decades, they've been flying them for decades. How about
shipbuilding--why is the fastest ship in the world made in Australia?
Consumer electronics--how is is that the Japanese grasped the concept that
"good enough" consumer video would sell and then brought VHS and Beta to
market, while Ampex, which was technologically capable of doing that as far
back as the '60s, never _tried_ it? And a little Japanese vacuum bottle
that is absolutely brilliant--the inside is exactly sized so that you can
drop a can of soda or beer into it and keep the can cold for hours. Thermos
could have made that at any time during their history so why didn't anybody
think to _try_ it? The thing that put Japanese consumer electronics on the
map wasn't cheap stuff, it was an expensive little 12-inch TV that could run
off the lighter plug in a car--everybody who saw those first little Sonys
was fascinated by them and the US electronics industry had _nothing_ like
that. Even stupid little bric-a-brac--I've got a set of little LED lights
that stick to your fingertips with rubber bands that are good for
light-painting and make a fun stocking stuffer (unfortunately the rubber
bands that come with them suck but rubber bands aren't hard to find) that
some US company could have been making ages ago.

I've owned some of the things you mention. Large Corporate operations
seem very slow to consider anything out of their already saturated
markets, they have no imagination and are unwilling to take risks.

Can you imagine a car like the Chevy Corvair being produced in this
day and age? For a major US manufacturer, first Unibody, first
turbocharger, first transaxle, first aluminum block/head, first air
cooled horizontally opposed six, independent 4-link suspension ('65
and later), etc. They attacked the market penetration of the likes of
Renault and VW while Ford produce the Falcon which primarily cut into
their own sales of larger sedans. Regardless of what you think about
the car, it made money, and still has aficionados around the world.
The engine is still sought after for airplanes, dune buggies, and
generators. Silly example, perhaps, but an indication of how little
real innovation has occurred since.

And you're right about the VCRs. I owned an Ampex open reel video
recorder back in the early 70s - B&W piece of ****. But it had all the
requisite technology - helical scan, linear sound track, and was sort
of portable. Marketers didn't feel there was a consumer demand and
failed to engineer a compact, easy to use version. They also had
studios and producers wailing in their ears about possible copyright
violations. The Japanese didn't care about all that, certainly did
forge ahead producing tons of VCRs. And TVs, radios, walkmans/discmans
and such.

Timidity is not a survival trait.

I don't know why this is the case--just that it is. We don't encourage
companies to bring high-risk products to market, we don't encourage basic
research, we don't encourage applied research, and we keep moaning and
groaning about how other countries do a better job of "science education"
while most people who graduate with technical degrees end up either teaching
school or doing something unrelated to their degree.

See? ;-) As for the engineers, many probably got sick of the status
quo and general backbiting. ladder climbing corporate crap.

And then there's general incompetence--I remember the materials people at
Enormous Aerospace telling us that we couldn't use this or that or the other
because it made seals swell--one day somebody asked the materials guy why we
cared if it made seals swell, and he replied "because it indicates that
there is something going on that could potentially degrade the seal".
Wasn't until I had left that industry that I found out that the tests the
idiots were using came from the automotive industry and the purpose of the
test wasn't to find out _if_ the seals swell but to make sure that they
swelled by the _right_ _amount_ and that all the stuff that the idiots had
been telling us that we couldn't use made the seals swell because it was
_supposed_ to make the seals swell. But it's not just big business--I used
to work for a woman who had visions of becoming a software vendor--the
trouble is that she didn't know squat about the computer industry or about
software and she thought that she could play for cheap with something that
had started out as a simple little program to do one stupid thing, and grown
into an unmaintainable monster by adding this feature and that feature and
the other feature until it was a few hundred thousand lines of code.

We resemble that remark. ;-) But I hear what you are saying.
Actually, I go through a rewrite of our code, compartmentalizing and
removing any redundant code every few months. But added features are
what keeps a product competitive. Bells and whistles sell. Compare
AutoCAD and SolidWorks or SolidEdge or... Light years apart. AutoDesk
did come out with Inventor, but market share had been lost at that
point and competition was aggressive. It's hard to move an installed
base from one system to another once training has been done.

Sorry for the rant.

No worries, mate. Been there, done that...


Greg G.

Greg G. said:

J. Clarke said:

Greg G. wrote:

CAD products produced in India.

India? I thought IBM's CAD product was Catia, which is a product of Avions
Marcel Dassault.

Actually, Catia is the IBM line, Dassault Systems is SolidWorks Corp.


D'oh! We're both right. I was wrong about IBM, although they
apparently have some input and employ a team in India - perhaps it is
for the IBM AIX port of Catia 5. BOTH are now products of the French
based Dassault Systems. SolidWorks was originated in Massachusetts in
1995, and was bought by Dassault in 1997. Cripes it's hard to keep up
with them all. SolidEdge, Pro/Engineer, SolidWorks, Catia, AutoDesk
Inventor, Siemens NX, TurboCAD, I-DEAS, Unigraphics, etc.
Not too long ago you had AutoCAD, then entry level programs like
Generic CADD and TurboCAD, and IMSI something or another.

And my earlier rant about AutoCAD was somewhat misplaced. While
others went into the parmetric/3D modeling CAD world directly,
AutoDesk entered into it sidways through its early development of
3DStudio/MAX which was oriented towards 3D visual presentation and
video rendering. I've actually got an old copy of the DOS based
3DStudio around here somewhere, along with the IPAS plugins.
Sheese... Took hours to render a scene...


Man, things sure were a lot simpler 30 years ago...

Ditto....

Reading Usenet, eating a pizza, and looking over an EDI 850 spec sheet
do NOT make for a useful contribution to anything. Excuse the typos
and drifting train of thought...


And then there's general incompetence--I remember the materials people at
Enormous Aerospace telling us that we couldn't use this or that or the other
because it made seals swell--one day somebody asked the materials guy why we
cared if it made seals swell, and he replied "because it indicates that
there is something going on that could potentially degrade the seal".
Wasn't until I had left that industry that I found out that the tests the
idiots were using came from the automotive industry and the purpose of the
test wasn't to find out _if_ the seals swell but to make sure that they
swelled by the _right_ _amount_ and that all the stuff that the idiots had
been telling us that we couldn't use made the seals swell because it was
_supposed_ to make the seals swell.

Hey, I've met engineers who couldn't change a tire, and would turn the
entire process into a consortium of opinions and analysis before
attempting to do so 2 hours later. Just get out of the f'in way
already.

And "Enormous Aerospace" is what... NASA? Boeing? Lockheed/Martin?
And the seals you refer to are the O-rings in the shuttle boosters?
Man what a boondoggle that is... I wouldn't ride one of those
inextinguishable sticks of dynamite into space for any amount of
money... And my childhood dream was to be an astronaut! I'm glad we
got something up there, but was disappointed in what we ended up with.


Greg G.

On Nov 16, 12:49*pm, Greg wrote:
Greg G. said:

J. Clarke said:

Greg G. wrote:

CAD products produced in India.

India? *I thought IBM's CAD product was Catia, which is a product of Avions
Marcel Dassault.

Actually, Catia is the IBM line, Dassault Systems is SolidWorks Corp.

D'oh! *We're both right. *I was wrong about IBM, although they
apparently have some input and employ a team in India - perhaps it is
for the IBM AIX port of Catia 5. *BOTH are now products of the French
based Dassault Systems. SolidWorks was originated in Massachusetts in
1995, and was bought by Dassault in 1997. Cripes it's hard to keep up
with them all. SolidEdge, Pro/Engineer, SolidWorks, Catia, AutoDesk
Inventor, Siemens NX, TurboCAD, I-DEAS, Unigraphics, etc.
Not too long ago you had AutoCAD, then entry level programs like
Generic CADD and TurboCAD, and IMSI something or another.

You forgot CADAM. Both were IBM's at one time (CADAM from Lockheed,
IIRC), though it looks like CADAM is completely Dassault's now and
there is some sort of partnership between Dassault and IBM on Catia.
There is also IBM CAD, which was OK on the desktop but went pretty
much the way of OS/2.

said:

Greg G. said:

Actually, Catia is the IBM line, Dassault Systems is SolidWorks Corp.

D'oh! *We're both right. *I was wrong about IBM, although they
apparently have some input and employ a team in India - perhaps it is
for the IBM AIX port of Catia 5. *BOTH are now products of the French
based Dassault Systems. SolidWorks was originated in Massachusetts in
1995, and was bought by Dassault in 1997. Cripes it's hard to keep up
with them all. SolidEdge, Pro/Engineer, SolidWorks, Catia, AutoDesk
Inventor, Siemens NX, TurboCAD, I-DEAS, Unigraphics, etc.
Not too long ago you had AutoCAD, then entry level programs like
Generic CADD and TurboCAD, and IMSI something or another.

You forgot CADAM. Both were IBM's at one time (CADAM from Lockheed,
IIRC), though it looks like CADAM is completely Dassault's now and
there is some sort of partnership between Dassault and IBM on Catia.
There is also IBM CAD, which was OK on the desktop but went pretty
much the way of OS/2.

Microstation, Bricscad, BRL-CAD, form-Z are a few others. The market
is saturated with CAD/CAM software. I've used quite a few different
solutions, but not in depth. Pro/Engineer was probably the first
"affordable" parametric 3D CAD program that gained quite a bit of
popularity against AutoCAD but was a bit slow - I'm thinking that some
versions actually ran under the Java JITC.

SolidWorks built upon some of the basic work flow premises of Pro/E
and is the one (besides AutoCAD and 3DStudioMax) that I am most
familiar with. Transitioning from a 2D drafting program is a bit
intimidating, so it's best to forget all that you know and start from
scratch. The methodology used in Solidworks fit my mindset best and is
an amazing program for the cost. There are plug-ins for quickly
modeling gear-sets (worm, rack and pinion, helical), finite, thermal,
mass and loading/stress analysis, CAM plug-ins for plotting tool paths
and generating G-code for milling, basic PCB and schematic, wire and
pipe routing, sheet metal folding, etc. Being a long time fan of MA
based AutoDesk I would have leaned towards Inventor but there wasn't
as much support although it has been gaining momentum since version 9.

And yes, it can be used to design Woodworking projects, although the
$5k price tag kinda rules that out for most of us... :-o

Anyone interested in free 3D modeling/CAD might check out FreeCAD:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page
(Work in progress, helps to know Python...)

And for $125 there is TurboCAD 16 Deluxe 2D/3D which is pretty good:
http://www.turbocad.com/TurboCAD/Tur...5/Default.aspx


Anyone expending a modicum of effort can convert this:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...rCabinet7l.jpg

Into this:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...rCabinet1l.jpg
(It's a router table, BTW...)

Or this:
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...W3AxisMill.jpg

FWIW,



Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Bill said:

... FAR too argumentative for me. I was just passing by, and I'll be
by-passing this topic.
Ya'll enjoy yourselves.

Well, Bill. Some of us old curmudgeons can be rather abrasive, don't
let it get to you. A thick skin helps when hanging around the wreck's
virtual water cooler.

I do find it interesting that in a group dedicated to woodworking, an
on-topic post garners 1 to 20 replies and yet the much maligned OT
posts frequently number 150 posts.


Might be because everything is so finite in woodworking vs., in this case,
party politics which should cause extreme cognitive dissonance if folks
stopped to think about the inconsistencies in their positions. ;~)

John