There's more to this.... I thought I would post a follow up to the Li
battery scheme.

After talking to two reps and th HD guy their marketing schtick goes
like this:

+ You will get almost double the duty cycles from our Li batteries
than you did with NiCad batteries. Double!! That means a savings to
you as a "pro" over the long haul!

- But wait, if I have to charge them 3 - 4 times as much when in
actual use, how did I come out ahead on that? I'll be underwater
since the batteries won't "work" as long between charges...

+ Our new batteries only take 15 minutes to charge!

- In the field: yeah, but they only last about 15% of the time as the
3 Ah batteries.

+ But we give you TWO batteries, so you can always be on the ready!

- In the field: OK, so now I have NEED two batteries that I have to
fiddle with to get to 30% performance of a real battery? If I drill a
bunch of holes, then need the second battery and it isn't finished
charging, then what? (See broken record response above)

+ Well, you could always buy a 3 Ah off the rack over there....
another $100 and you would be in business!

- So let me get this right; I can buy a new tool that doesn't do what
I want it to do, then back it up with an accessory that will let it
perform as it should. And this accessory is almost 50% of the cost of
the tool in question?

+ Well sir, if you buy Ridgid under this promotion and register
properly, you will get lifetime coverage on batteries as well as the
drill under normal use. (Note: Not all batteries on all cordless
tools put out by Ridgid have this warranty; buy carefully)

- Well sir, if I was working in a tight place and had to recharge my
F'in drill every 5 - 6th hole, I would take a hammer and beat it to
pieces.

+ Oh.... well, that wouldn't be covered under warranty, sir.

OK.. seriously guys. What do you do with these pieces of crap? Is a
Li $200 to $275 drill a homeowner drill?

They had a few old DeWalt NiCads left on the shelf. With the XT
batteries, they were pretty hard to beat. There is some talk that
with the unpopularity of the Li (there are some temp problems with
some) that DeWalt will continue on with the NiCad lines. They seem
abundant on Amazon, and even new NiCad models are available.

I guess the reason this ****es me off so much is that I got stung with
the whole NiCad to NiMh battery switch. I still have a Makita that
works well when charged, but I was disappointed that I spent $300 to
upgrade from my favorite old DeWalt, only to find that I didn't get
the performance of my $239 DeWalt compact drill driver. I felt like
Makita burned me good, and since there wasn't anything technically
wrong with the drill, after more than 90 days of wrestling with it, my
vendor wouldn't take it back. So I have a $300 "shop only" drill.
Verrrry practical. And it ****es me off any time I see it.

It is a horse when charged, but will easily discharge (almost
completely) itself in the truck when not used in about 2 weeks. It
forced me to carry a corded drill for backup, which I never did when I
had the DeWalt. DW seemed like it was always ready to go, and it
would hold a good charge in the truck for a month. I don't want to
get to a house to install new hardware and hinges and have to wait on
the drill to charge every time. And I don't want to start carrying a
backup drill for my front line drill again.

OK, rant off. Buy these new "slim lines" or "compacts" at your own
risk. I thought some here might be interested to see just what you
would be getting when these things are on sale, or up at a good price
for the holiday season.

And if you think I was ****y, google around a bit and find posts from
people that have spent their hard earned bucks on these.

Robert

In ,
dropped this bit of wisdom:
There's more to this.... I thought I would post a follow up to the Li
battery scheme.

After talking to two reps and th HD guy their marketing schtick goes
like this:

+ You will get almost double the duty cycles from our Li batteries
than you did with NiCad batteries. Double!! That means a savings to
you as a "pro" over the long haul!

- But wait, if I have to charge them 3 - 4 times as much when in
actual use, how did I come out ahead on that? I'll be underwater
since the batteries won't "work" as long between charges...

+ Our new batteries only take 15 minutes to charge!

- In the field: yeah, but they only last about 15% of the time as the
3 Ah batteries.

+ But we give you TWO batteries, so you can always be on the ready!

- In the field: OK, so now I have NEED two batteries that I have to
fiddle with to get to 30% performance of a real battery? If I drill a
bunch of holes, then need the second battery and it isn't finished
charging, then what? (See broken record response above)

+ Well, you could always buy a 3 Ah off the rack over there....
another $100 and you would be in business!

- So let me get this right; I can buy a new tool that doesn't do what
I want it to do, then back it up with an accessory that will let it
perform as it should. And this accessory is almost 50% of the cost of
the tool in question?

+ Well sir, if you buy Ridgid under this promotion and register
properly, you will get lifetime coverage on batteries as well as the
drill under normal use. (Note: Not all batteries on all cordless
tools put out by Ridgid have this warranty; buy carefully)

- Well sir, if I was working in a tight place and had to recharge my
F'in drill every 5 - 6th hole, I would take a hammer and beat it to
pieces.

+ Oh.... well, that wouldn't be covered under warranty, sir.

OK.. seriously guys. What do you do with these pieces of crap? Is a
Li $200 to $275 drill a homeowner drill?

They had a few old DeWalt NiCads left on the shelf. With the XT
batteries, they were pretty hard to beat. There is some talk that
with the unpopularity of the Li (there are some temp problems with
some) that DeWalt will continue on with the NiCad lines. They seem
abundant on Amazon, and even new NiCad models are available.

I guess the reason this ****es me off so much is that I got stung with
the whole NiCad to NiMh battery switch. I still have a Makita that
works well when charged, but I was disappointed that I spent $300 to
upgrade from my favorite old DeWalt, only to find that I didn't get
the performance of my $239 DeWalt compact drill driver. I felt like
Makita burned me good, and since there wasn't anything technically
wrong with the drill, after more than 90 days of wrestling with it, my
vendor wouldn't take it back. So I have a $300 "shop only" drill.
Verrrry practical. And it ****es me off any time I see it.

It is a horse when charged, but will easily discharge (almost
completely) itself in the truck when not used in about 2 weeks. It
forced me to carry a corded drill for backup, which I never did when I
had the DeWalt. DW seemed like it was always ready to go, and it
would hold a good charge in the truck for a month. I don't want to
get to a house to install new hardware and hinges and have to wait on
the drill to charge every time. And I don't want to start carrying a
backup drill for my front line drill again.

OK, rant off. Buy these new "slim lines" or "compacts" at your own
risk. I thought some here might be interested to see just what you
would be getting when these things are on sale, or up at a good price
for the holiday season.

And if you think I was ****y, google around a bit and find posts from
people that have spent their hard earned bucks on these.

Robert

I missed the first part of this rant so ------

Seems to me I recall that, in days of yore, B&D had a really good name in tools.

The name was so good that it took us a while to realize that B&D had started to sell crap.
When we did, we stopped buying B&D. And, in an effort to regain lost marketshare, B&D bought DeWalt, which had a really good reputation.

Could it be that we are currently seeing a repeat performance with DeWalt?

What you are experiencing is exactly why all my tools are still corded. It is a PITA dragging around a 100 foot cord.

P D Q

On Nov 6, 5:33*pm, "PDQ" wrote:
,
dropped this bit of wisdom:





There's more to this.... I thought I would post a follow up to the Li
battery scheme.

After talking to two reps and th HD guy their marketing schtick goes
like this:

+ You will get almost double the duty cycles from our Li batteries
than you did with NiCad batteries. *Double!! *That means a savings to
you as a "pro" over the long haul!

- But wait, if I have to charge them 3 - 4 times as much when in
actual use, how did I come out ahead on that? *I'll be underwater
since the batteries won't "work" as long between charges...

+ Our new batteries only take 15 minutes to charge!

- In the field: *yeah, but they only last about 15% of the time as the
3 Ah batteries.

+ But we give you TWO batteries, so you can always be on the ready!

- In the field: *OK, so now I have NEED two batteries that I have to
fiddle with to get to 30% performance of a real battery? *If I drill a
bunch of holes, then need the second battery and it isn't finished
charging, then what? *(See broken record response above)

+ Well, you could always buy a 3 Ah off the rack over there....
another $100 and you would be in business!

- So let me get this right; I can buy a new tool that doesn't do what
I want it to do, then back it up with an accessory that will let it
perform as it should. *And this accessory is almost 50% of the cost of
the tool in question?

+ Well sir, if you buy Ridgid under this promotion and register
properly, you will get lifetime coverage on batteries as well as the
drill under normal use. *(Note: *Not all batteries on all cordless
tools put out by Ridgid have this warranty; buy carefully)

- Well sir, if I was working in a tight place and had to recharge my
F'in drill every 5 - 6th hole, I would take a hammer and beat it to
pieces.

+ Oh.... well, that wouldn't be covered under warranty, sir.

OK.. seriously guys. *What do you do with these pieces of crap? *Is a
Li $200 to $275 drill a homeowner drill?

They had a few old DeWalt NiCads left on the shelf. *With the XT
batteries, they were pretty hard to beat. *There is some talk that
with the unpopularity of the Li (there are some temp problems with
some) that DeWalt will continue on with the NiCad lines. *They seem
abundant on Amazon, and even new NiCad models are available.

I guess the reason this ****es me off so much is that I got stung with
the whole NiCad to NiMh battery switch. *I still have a Makita that
works well when charged, but I was disappointed that I spent $300 to
upgrade from my favorite old DeWalt, only to find that I didn't get
the performance of my $239 DeWalt compact drill driver. *I felt like
Makita burned me good, and since there wasn't anything technically
wrong with the drill, after more than 90 days of wrestling with it, my
vendor wouldn't take it back. *So I have a $300 "shop only" drill.
Verrrry practical. *And it ****es me off any time I see it.

It is a horse when charged, but will easily discharge (almost
completely) itself in the truck when not used in about 2 weeks. *It
forced me to carry a corded drill for backup, which I never did when I
had the DeWalt. *DW seemed like it was always ready to go, and it
would hold a good charge in the truck for a month. *I don't want to
get to a house to install new hardware and hinges and have to wait on
the drill to charge every time. *And I don't want to start carrying a
backup drill for my front line drill again.

OK, rant off. *Buy these new "slim lines" or "compacts" at your own
risk. *I thought some here might be interested to see just what you
would be getting when these things are on sale, or up at a good price
for the holiday season.

And if you think I was ****y, google around a bit and find posts from
people that have spent their hard earned bucks on these.

Robert

I missed the first part of this rant so ------

Seems to me I recall that, in days of yore, B&D had a really good name in tools.

The name was so good that it took us a while to realize that B&D had started to sell crap.
When we did, we stopped buying B&D. *And, in an effort to regain lost marketshare, B&D bought DeWalt, which had a really good reputation.

Could it be that we are currently seeing a repeat performance with DeWalt?

What you are experiencing is exactly why all my tools are still corded. *It is a PITA dragging around a 100 foot cord.

P D Q

One of Holmes on Homes sponsors is DeWalt. It was funny to see Mike
Holmes building a suspended deck and the director of the segment doing
a fast edit of Mike and the boys, in rapid succession, calling out for
batteries. "BATTERY!"......BATTERY!"...and so on...
And I'm thinking: "this can't be pleasing the DeWalt people..."

I did buy a Bosch Li 10.x Volt angle driver and I found the same as
Leon. It dies suddenly. All torque and suddenly pfffffft. I really
like that tool though, but it will never be building decks or anything
like that.

In ,
Robatoy dropped this bit of wisdom:
On Nov 6, 5:33 pm, "PDQ" wrote:
,
dropped this bit of
wisdom:





SNIP
What you are experiencing is exactly why all my tools are still
corded. It is a PITA dragging around a 100 foot cord.

P D Q

One of Holmes on Homes sponsors is DeWalt. It was funny to see Mike
Holmes building a suspended deck and the director of the segment doing
a fast edit of Mike and the boys, in rapid succession, calling out for
batteries. "BATTERY!"......BATTERY!"...and so on...
And I'm thinking: "this can't be pleasing the DeWalt people..."

I did buy a Bosch Li 10.x Volt angle driver and I found the same as
Leon. It dies suddenly. All torque and suddenly pfffffft. I really
like that tool though, but it will never be building decks or anything
like that.

Forgot to mention ther is 1 place where the Li seems to excell

My shaver has a Li battery and it is smaller than my old NiCad, a charge lasts 1 month (which is longer than my old one) and it does go pffffffft immediately before it dies. Other than that, I love my new shaver. ;-)

P D Q

On Nov 6, 4:33 pm, "PDQ" wrote:

What you are experiencing is exactly why all my tools are still corded.

You missed the whole point. Let me be brief.

They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.

It is a PITA dragging around a 100 foot cord.

There is no reason to anymore unless you have a high consumption
tool. 100' of cord isn't that big of a deal, but what if it is twice
or three times that, or your cords would wind up in the path of your
client's customers when they want to access his business?

Do you go home? Do you turn down the work?

There is a huge void that quality cordless products fill perfectly.

Robert

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:24:19 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

vendor wouldn't take it back. So I have a $300 "shop only" drill.
Verrrry practical. And it ****es me off any time I see it.

I understand that "****es me off" completely. One solution, beat the
living crap out of the drill and put the video on UTube.

I'm about to do that with a $350 Asus motherboard. It didn't work from
the get go right out of the box. Put if on the shelf and used another
motherboard I had on hand. A few months later, I sent it in under
warranty, received a replacement and believe it or not, that one too
didn't work right out of the box. That's enough for me. I'm going to
get a friend to video tape me beating the thing into little bits and
then post it on Utube. I may have lost some money in the deal and more
importantly, time screwing around with the thing. But, I'll get a
great amount of satisfaction destroying it and letting people see that
destruction.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:28:01 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:

One of Holmes on Homes sponsors is DeWalt. It was funny to see Mike
Holmes building a suspended deck and the director of the segment doing
a fast edit of Mike and the boys, in rapid succession, calling out for
batteries. "BATTERY!"......BATTERY!"...and so on...
And I'm thinking: "this can't be pleasing the DeWalt people..."

Maybe, but considering that his bread and butter is most often the
larger home reno jobs, it's expected that batteries will deplete
fairly often. Considering that wall electricity is usually available,
but not usually used, DeWalt is surely getting their advertising quota
covered.

On 11/06/2009 10:31 PM, wrote:

They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.

All the big names still produce and sell the bigger batteries...it's
probably just that HD doesn't want to carry them because they can sell
far more of the "compact" tools with lower capacity batteries to the
homeowner crowd.

Chris

In article d9e8a140-7133-4a0b-8b61-
,
says...

They had a few old DeWalt NiCads left on the shelf. With the XT
batteries, they were pretty hard to beat. There is some talk that
with the unpopularity of the Li (there are some temp problems with
some) that DeWalt will continue on with the NiCad lines. They seem
abundant on Amazon, and even new NiCad models are available.

I guess the reason this ****es me off so much is that I got stung with
the whole NiCad to NiMh battery switch. I still have a Makita that
works well when charged, but I was disappointed that I spent $300 to
upgrade from my favorite old DeWalt, only to find that I didn't get
the performance of my $239 DeWalt compact drill driver. I felt like
Makita burned me good, and since there wasn't anything technically
wrong with the drill, after more than 90 days of wrestling with it, my
vendor wouldn't take it back. So I have a $300 "shop only" drill.
Verrrry practical. And it ****es me off any time I see it.

It is a horse when charged, but will easily discharge (almost
completely) itself in the truck when not used in about 2 weeks. It
forced me to carry a corded drill for backup, which I never did when I
had the DeWalt. DW seemed like it was always ready to go, and it
would hold a good charge in the truck for a month. I don't want to
get to a house to install new hardware and hinges and have to wait on
the drill to charge every time. And I don't want to start carrying a
backup drill for my front line drill again.

It's always interesting to me how people's experience varies.
I have found that nicd batteries in cordless drills die on me in
relatively short order - counting the hours of use I get out of them.
Why? Because I don't discharge and recharge them often enough. I'm not
using them professionally all the time, they may get an intense burst
for 2 weeks or 2 months, and then sit around unused for a few months.
Nicd don't seem to like that, they die. You come back to the tool some
day and they just won't take more than 2 minutes worth of charge.

Hence I changed to NiMH, and my experience of that technology is
different from yours. Not the fast discharge you're experiencing. Plenty
of power, and not half bad (talking about my 12V panasonic here) if I
come back to the stored-fully-charged drill 2 or 3 months later. 4 Ah.
And these batteries are much more forgiving in terms of not getting used
for a long time. Nor do I have to discharge them all the way before I
top them up for storage ...

My Li experience so far is only limited to a wee Bosch driver. No
discharge noticable over very long time. Alas, I find that it's got less
grunt than the 9.6V Panasonic NiMH, much less. But then, it only weighs
about 1/2 as much and the batteries are tiny in comparison.

I'm not going to go 'all out' on Lithium, but I won't condemn it out of
hand. On the other hand, I know that NiCd doesn't work well for me but I
realize that it works very very well indeed for people who fire theirs
up ever day or so.

f.w.i.w. -P.

"Peter Huebner" wrote in message
t...
In article d9e8a140-7133-4a0b-8b61-
,

says...

They had a few old DeWalt NiCads left on the shelf. With the
XT
batteries, they were pretty hard to beat. There is some talk
that
with the unpopularity of the Li (there are some temp problems
with
some) that DeWalt will continue on with the NiCad lines. They
seem
abundant on Amazon, and even new NiCad models are available.

I guess the reason this ****es me off so much is that I got
stung with
the whole NiCad to NiMh battery switch. I still have a Makita
that
works well when charged, but I was disappointed that I spent
$300 to
upgrade from my favorite old DeWalt, only to find that I didn't
get
the performance of my $239 DeWalt compact drill driver. I felt
like
Makita burned me good, and since there wasn't anything
technically
wrong with the drill, after more than 90 days of wrestling with
it, my
vendor wouldn't take it back. So I have a $300 "shop only"
drill.
Verrrry practical. And it ****es me off any time I see it.

It is a horse when charged, but will easily discharge (almost
completely) itself in the truck when not used in about 2 weeks.
It
forced me to carry a corded drill for backup, which I never did
when I
had the DeWalt. DW seemed like it was always ready to go, and
it
would hold a good charge in the truck for a month. I don't
want to
get to a house to install new hardware and hinges and have to
wait on
the drill to charge every time. And I don't want to start
carrying a
backup drill for my front line drill again.

Long, long ago, my friend had a service van he used to make calls
on homes and business as part of his electrical contracting
business. He was using the Makita long-handled drills (I don't
recall voltage) and would run into dead battery syndrome all too
frequently. His solution was to simply buy a small inverter and
fasten it and a Makita battery recharger to one of the shelves in
his van. He also got a mechanical interval timer and installed it
between his van battery and the inverter, so he could give it a
twist to run the inverter for 4 hours, for instance. It worked
like a charm.

He was on a new construction site when one of the finish
carpenters had a cussing fit: his Paslode airless nailer's battery
was dead. My friend let him recharge it in his service van and
then helped the guy install a similar arrangement in his own
pickup.

FWIW, we drive a Toyota Sienna van, and it comes complete with a
120vac outlet in the back for recharging things, such as my wife's
scooter.

--
Nonny

You cannot make a stupid kid smart by
handing him a diploma. Schools need standards
to measure the amount of education actually
absorbed by children. Don't sacrifice the smart
kids to make the dumb ones feel good about themselves.

In ,
dropped this bit of wisdom:
On Nov 6, 4:33 pm, "PDQ" wrote:

What you are experiencing is exactly why all my tools are still
corded.

You missed the whole point. Let me be brief.

They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.

It is a PITA dragging around a 100 foot cord.

There is no reason to anymore unless you have a high consumption
tool. 100' of cord isn't that big of a deal, but what if it is twice
or three times that, or your cords would wind up in the path of your
client's customers when they want to access his business?

Do you go home? Do you turn down the work?

There is a huge void that quality cordless products fill perfectly.

Robert

Can't say as I missed the point.

Probably the smaller batteries result from user compalints about the size of the bigger ones. Given the cost of the 1.5 Ah, a 3.0 might be cost prohibitive.

Tried some of those cordless years ago,
found them wanting and never went back.

The 100 is only because I use a small, quiet generator onsite. Works for me. :-)

P D Q

Peter Huebner wrote in
t:


It's always interesting to me how people's experience varies.
I have found that nicd batteries in cordless drills die on me in
relatively short order - counting the hours of use I get out of them.
Why? Because I don't discharge and recharge them often enough. I'm not
using them professionally all the time, they may get an intense burst
for 2 weeks or 2 months, and then sit around unused for a few months.
Nicd don't seem to like that, they die. You come back to the tool some
day and they just won't take more than 2 minutes worth of charge.


*snip*

NiCds don't like being over charged. Some of the cheap chargers are
nothing more than a regulated power supply (not a good regulated supply,
either) and can cook your battery if left on and forgotten about.
Seriously, now, what cordless drill owner hasn't forgotten about their
charging battery?

Avoiding the charge/discharge/self discharge cycle would probably also be
a good thing. A decent charger could actually prevent such a thing
(There are conditioning chargers out there that discharge a battery fully
then charge it back up.)

I guess the whole point of this post is not to say the battery
technologies are bad, it's the charging systems. If we had more
universal batteries, I'd be willing to pay $200+ for a smart charger that
stopped charging when the battery was full, conditioned NiCds every so
often (might have to be a manual option), and generally took better care
of the batteries.

Puckdropper
--
I bought a cat toy with an infrared thermometer feature.

On Nov 7, 10:26*pm, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

I guess the whole point of this post is not to say the battery
technologies are bad, it's the charging systems. *

Some battery technologies ARE bad for tools. A battery that powers a
shaver that runs for 3 minutes, or a battery that takes pictures,
sits, takes more pictures, then sits some more isn't necessarily the
right battery for a constant, high drain device like a hard working
drill.

I don't mind nailing, but when you need a screw, or several of them
you need a screw. So running in a few pounds of screws into framing,
screwing off sheet goods, hanging underlay boards, and all the things
I use a drill for (sometimes I even drill holes!) isn't the same as
the intermittent drain of a once a day shaver, or a tourist style
camera that takes a 150 pictures a day.

To even draw the comparison more clearly, take out your cordless saw.
The same batteries that served you well in intermittent use like an
occasional small hole or running up a handful of screws in your drill
will fail miserably after just a few feet of T111 siding, or a few
2X4s.

I am not sure that we have the answer yet, but for toughness and
durability, I would think that NiCad would be my pick. My drill,
charger and batteries rode in the toolbox of my truck when was 100+
degrees for 7 summers before it died. Seven!

My NmHi only had a useful life of about a year, and they were
miserable. They discharged in the truck while riding around, they
were damn quick about it in hot weather, and they worked at peak for
about 90 days.

The jury for me is still out on the usefulness of the Li. I
considered a new bigger driver in Li as I had great luck with my
little 12V Li driver. Holds a charge very well, charges in a few
minutes (15 - 20?) and the little driver has a lot of power and useful
life.

But there is something going on with Li in the larger tools, and not
just the no smaller batteries. I have read some treatises on the
useful life of these batteries in machines over 12 volts, and it isn't
good. Why 12 volts as a limiter? I don't know and don't have the
expertise to understand it all anyway. But according to one of the
battery design web sites I went to, the Li tool batteries were
intended to be the battery for low drain tools such as small drivers
and the newer lines of impact drivers. Although in the end the larger
batteries may work out fine, the Li batteries weren't designed for
high drain devices of that order.

If we had more
universal batteries, I'd be willing to pay $200+ for a smart charger that
stopped charging when the battery was full, conditioned NiCds every so
often (might have to be a manual option), and generally took better care
of the batteries.

Now you have something. I couldn't agree more. And the proof is in
the putting.

The drill I have that has had the longest useful life, and the longest
battery life was a Sears "Professional" line drill. One of the things
they touted about the drill was the charger/battery system. If the
battery was discharged to a certain point, the charger would drain the
battery completely before charging. I usually use the batteries until
dead, but not always, so a neat feature. So the battery was drawn
down before charging no matter when you put it in the charger.

The other item they were proud of was that the battery wouldn't be
over charged. So one the battery was fully charged, the charger
clicked the power off. Now... if you raised up the battery out of the
charger and changed your mind and put it back in, then it would draw
it down and recharge. Not good. But with a little careful
management, I could use the batteries and leave them in the charger on
the job until I needed them.

NiMh and Li batteries don't need such devices as they are like filling
a bucket with water. You simply fill or top off the battery as needed
with no fear of memory or shortening battery life.

But how stupid is it that both NiMh and Li batteries can be damaged by
leaving them in the charger. What if you (or a helper) forget and
leave them on a job in the charger over a weekend. How about a
holiday weekend? At $100 a pop for the batteries you would think
(OK... maybe not) that they would be considerate enough to put an off
switch in the charger that would not continue to feed power to the
batteries after they are charged.

Seriously, after reading more and going to several open forums that
are discussing/cussing the Li batteried tools, I will probably go back
to NiCad. They work in the summer, stand the heat very well, they
work fine in the cold, they have a long life (if they are quality to
begin with) and they just work.

I seem Amazon has my old DeWalt 18v NiCad compact driver for $200
delivered to the door. I think it might be worth it to me to put this
issue to bed!

Robert

In article , Puckdropper
says...

Avoiding the charge/discharge/self discharge cycle would probably also be
a good thing. A decent charger could actually prevent such a thing
(There are conditioning chargers out there that discharge a battery fully
then charge it back up.)

I guess the whole point of this post is not to say the battery
technologies are bad, it's the charging systems. If we had more
universal batteries, I'd be willing to pay $200+ for a smart charger that
stopped charging when the battery was full, conditioned NiCds every so
often (might have to be a manual option), and generally took better care
of the batteries.

Puckdropper



Considering that I've used the top-of-the-line universal charger from
Panasonic that handles both nicd and nimh and several different voltages
automatically; and I've always removed my nicd batteries within a
quarter hour of their showing up as fully charged, I'd be surprised if
the charger was to blame. Still using it with my batteries that have
been rebuilt with NiMH technology since, and it works a treat. I top up
the NiMH every few months when I'm not using them, and they've lasted
much longer so far (I'm on the 2nd NiMH rebuild by now, b.t.w.).

The only other brand I've had experience of was my 7.2 Makita, a long
long time ago, and that battery (with a slow non-intelligent charger)
didn't last for too many cycles for me either before a disasterous
capacity collapse occurred.

My NiCD powered toothbrushes and D-cells on the other hand just keep
going and going and going for years because they get that regular
workout.

Well, that's the way I figure it, and it more or less coincides with
what I've read experts in the field saying. I'm certainly no expert in
accumulator chemistry myself.

-P.

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:24:14 +1300, Peter Huebner
wrote:

In article , Puckdropper
says...

Avoiding the charge/discharge/self discharge cycle would probably also be
a good thing. A decent charger could actually prevent such a thing
(There are conditioning chargers out there that discharge a battery fully
then charge it back up.)

I guess the whole point of this post is not to say the battery
technologies are bad, it's the charging systems. If we had more
universal batteries, I'd be willing to pay $200+ for a smart charger that
stopped charging when the battery was full, conditioned NiCds every so
often (might have to be a manual option), and generally took better care
of the batteries.

Puckdropper



Considering that I've used the top-of-the-line universal charger from
Panasonic that handles both nicd and nimh and several different voltages
automatically; and I've always removed my nicd batteries within a
quarter hour of their showing up as fully charged, I'd be surprised if
the charger was to blame. Still using it with my batteries that have
been rebuilt with NiMH technology since, and it works a treat. I top up
the NiMH every few months when I'm not using them, and they've lasted
much longer so far (I'm on the 2nd NiMH rebuild by now, b.t.w.).

The chemistry of NiCd and NiMH is very similar so the chargers are
very similar. The main difference is that NiCd shows a pronounced
drop in voltage as it completes charging (NiMH far less so). If this
phenomenon is used as a signal to terminate charging the charger will
over-charge and ruin NiMH batteries.

The other main charge termination method is temperature. Once a
battery reaches full charge, all of the electrical energy that was
used for charging turns into heat. If the charger uses this
temperature rise to detect charge termination it'll work well for both
battery technologies.

With either NiCd or NiMH you're better off not "topping up". These
batteries have a pretty substantial self-discharge and really want to
be stored flat (self-discharge is a safe way to get there). That's
not good for a tool that's only used occasionally and immediately,
obviously. NiCD or NiMH isn't the right technology for this
application either. It's a very poor choice for flashlights and
emergency lights and not used in UPSs for this reason.

The only other brand I've had experience of was my 7.2 Makita, a long
long time ago, and that battery (with a slow non-intelligent charger)
didn't last for too many cycles for me either before a disasterous
capacity collapse occurred.

Likely cooked the batteries. SOme of these "slow" chargers were
*really* bad.

My NiCD powered toothbrushes and D-cells on the other hand just keep
going and going and going for years because they get that regular
workout.

That's what NiCDs like. If you're going to charge them, let them
(self) discharge fully.

Well, that's the way I figure it, and it more or less coincides with
what I've read experts in the field saying. I'm certainly no expert in
accumulator chemistry myself.

I studied NiCd/NiMH and SLACs some time back because I needed them for
a product (and they guy before me blew it).

On Nov 6, 4:24*pm, "
wrote:
There's more to this.... I thought I would post a follow up to the Li
battery scheme.

After talking to two reps and th HD guy their marketing schtick goes
like this:

+ You will get almost double the duty cycles from our Li batteries
than you did with NiCad batteries. *Double!! *That means a savings to
you as a "pro" over the long haul!

- But wait, if I have to charge them 3 - 4 times as much when in
actual use, how did I come out ahead on that? *I'll be underwater
since the batteries won't "work" as long between charges...

+ Our new batteries only take 15 minutes to charge!

- In the field: *yeah, but they only last about 15% of the time as the
3 Ah batteries.

+ But we give you TWO batteries, so you can always be on the ready!

- In the field: *OK, so now I have NEED two batteries that I have to
fiddle with to get to 30% performance of a real battery? *If I drill a
bunch of holes, then need the second battery and it isn't finished
charging, then what? *(See broken record response above)

+ Well, you could always buy a 3 Ah off the rack over there....
another $100 and you would be in business!

- So let me get this right; I can buy a new tool that doesn't do what
I want it to do, then back it up with an accessory that will let it
perform as it should. *And this accessory is almost 50% of the cost of
the tool in question?

+ Well sir, if you buy Ridgid under this promotion and register
properly, you will get lifetime coverage on batteries as well as the
drill under normal use. *(Note: *Not all batteries on all cordless
tools put out by Ridgid have this warranty; buy carefully)

- Well sir, if I was working in a tight place and had to recharge my
F'in drill every 5 - 6th hole, I would take a hammer and beat it to
pieces.

+ Oh.... well, that wouldn't be covered under warranty, sir.

OK.. seriously guys. *What do you do with these pieces of crap? *Is a
Li $200 to $275 drill a homeowner drill?

They had a few old DeWalt NiCads left on the shelf. *With the XT
batteries, they were pretty hard to beat. *There is some talk that
with the unpopularity of the Li (there are some temp problems with
some) that DeWalt will continue on with the NiCad lines. *They seem
abundant on Amazon, and even new NiCad models are available.

I guess the reason this ****es me off so much is that I got stung with
the whole NiCad to NiMh battery switch. *I still have a Makita that
works well when charged, but I was disappointed that I spent $300 to
upgrade from my favorite old DeWalt, only to find that I didn't get
the performance of my $239 DeWalt compact drill driver. *I felt like
Makita burned me good, and since there wasn't anything technically
wrong with the drill, after more than 90 days of wrestling with it, my
vendor wouldn't take it back. *So I have a $300 "shop only" drill.
Verrrry practical. *And it ****es me off any time I see it.

It is a horse when charged, but will easily discharge (almost
completely) itself in the truck when not used in about 2 weeks. *It
forced me to carry a corded drill for backup, which I never did when I
had the DeWalt. *DW seemed like it was always ready to go, and it
would hold a good charge in the truck for a month. *I don't want to
get to a house to install new hardware and hinges and have to wait on
the drill to charge every time. *And I don't want to start carrying a
backup drill for my front line drill again.

OK, rant off. *Buy these new "slim lines" or "compacts" at your own
risk. *I thought some here might be interested to see just what you
would be getting when these things are on sale, or up at a good price
for the holiday season.

And if you think I was ****y, google around a bit and find posts from
people that have spent their hard earned bucks on these.

Robert

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

The same MBAs and marketeers go to the same schools...and are taught
the same approaches to separate us from our money.

TMT

On Nov 6, 10:31*pm, "
wrote:
On Nov 6, 4:33 pm, "PDQ" wrote:

What you are experiencing is exactly why all my tools are still corded.

You missed the whole point. *Let me be brief.

They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. *There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. *They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.

It is a PITA dragging around a 100 foot cord.

There is no reason to anymore unless you have a high consumption
tool. *100' of cord isn't that big of a deal, but what if it is twice
or three times that, or your cords would wind up in the path of your
client's customers when they want to access his business?

Do you go home? *Do you turn down the work?

There is a huge void that quality cordless products fill perfectly.

Robert

Same marketing ploy as selling 8oz. of coffee in a 10 oz. can and hope
the consumer doesn't figure it out.

TMT

On Nov 9, 12:19*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

The same MBAs and marketeers go to the same schools...and are taught
the same approaches to separate us from our money.

All too true. And likening it to putting less coffee in the can was
the perfect simile, too.

Over the years I have become used to the cheapening of the whole tool
package. When one of us gets a new tool, we often say things like
"remember when these used to come with a really nice case?" or "that
tool used to come with a great blade on it (or a bit set) when you
bought it" or "yup, I remember when the rip guide came with one of
these".

I am used to the marketers leaving out the niceties, and in some cases
useful parts and pieces to make sure they get what they want on their
end.

But to chop down the actual usefulness of the tool so badly was a huge
surprise.

And as noted somewhere else here recently, I truly believe that it is
all about selling the batteries now. Once again, the reference to
inkjet printers if completely spot on.

Robert

On 11/09/2009 12:19 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

I switched to laser. My printer came with a toner cartridge good for
6000 standard pages. After 4 years I finally had to replace the
cartridge, and the extra-large replacement (which cost around $160 or
so) is good for 12000 pages. That's about 1.3 cents/page.

Chris

On Nov 9, 2:02*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 11/09/2009 12:19 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

I switched to laser. *My printer came with a toner cartridge good for
6000 standard pages. After 4 years I finally had to replace the
cartridge, and the extra-large replacement (which cost around $160 or
so) is good for 12000 pages. *That's about 1.3 cents/page.

Chris

I did the same. After two years I replaced the toner cartridge with
an aftermarket cartridge (inkjetsupersore.com, IIRC) that's supposed
to be good for 7000 copies; $35. Works fine, if not better than the
original.

On Nov 9, 2:02*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 11/09/2009 12:19 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

I switched to laser. *My printer came with a toner cartridge good for
6000 standard pages. After 4 years I finally had to replace the
cartridge, and the extra-large replacement (which cost around $160 or
so) is good for 12000 pages. *That's about 1.3 cents/page.

Chris

They play the damn games with laser printers too.

Compare the cartridge that comes with the printer to the next one you
buy.

TMT

On Nov 9, 11:53*am, "
wrote:
On Nov 9, 12:19*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

The same MBAs and marketeers go to the same schools...and are taught
the same approaches to separate us from our money.

All too true. *And likening it to putting less coffee in the can was
the perfect simile, too.

Over the years I have become used to the cheapening of the whole tool
package. *When one of us gets a new tool, we often say things like
"remember when these used to come with a really nice case?" or "that
tool used to come with a great blade on it (or a bit set) *when you
bought it" or "yup, *I remember when the rip guide came with one of
these".

I am used to the marketers leaving out the niceties, and in some cases
useful parts and pieces to make sure they get what they want on their
end.

But to chop down the actual usefulness of the tool so badly was a huge
surprise.

And as noted somewhere else here recently, I truly believe that it is
all about selling the batteries now. *Once again, the reference to
inkjet printers if completely spot on.

Robert

The games will continue to be played as the companies continue to
squeeze the Golden Goose for that next golden egg. When the public
finally votes with their wallet elsewhere, then the companies will
readd what was taken out and trumpet it loudly as a new
innovation....and charge more.

The game that I am seeing played most often now is to remove cost from
the item in question and still charge the same price...or more. It
basically results in a hidden inflation to the consumer.

The absolutely last thing a company wants to do is to lower the price
of a product.

TMT

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Nov 9, 2:02 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 11/09/2009 12:19 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

I switched to laser. My printer came with a toner cartridge good for
6000 standard pages. After 4 years I finally had to replace the
cartridge, and the extra-large replacement (which cost around $160 or
so) is good for 12000 pages. That's about 1.3 cents/page.

Chris

They play the damn games with laser printers too.

Compare the cartridge that comes with the printer to the next one you
buy.

TMT



I bought a HP 1022 Laser printer a few years ago, realizing that the color
ink
(in an ink jet) was evaporating faster than I was using it. It was one of
the few printers that came with a full toner cartridge. I use off-brand
("Rosewell", I think)
toner cartridges from newegg.com. I'm pretty sure I've already saved
several
hundred dollars by switching to the laser. And what drove me to it? --
When
I was looking at the HP printers I noticed that the ink-jet cartridges that
came with the
new HP-printers had the same price, but LESS INK. The salesman explained
that
the new printers used the ink more efficiently (HA, HA, HA!)... I'm very
happy with the laser.
I probably print 100-150 pages a month.

Bill

"Bill" writes:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Nov 9, 2:02 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 11/09/2009 12:19 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

I switched to laser. My printer came with a toner cartridge good for
6000 standard pages. After 4 years I finally had to replace the
cartridge, and the extra-large replacement (which cost around $160 or
so) is good for 12000 pages. That's about 1.3 cents/page.

Chris

They play the damn games with laser printers too.

Compare the cartridge that comes with the printer to the next one you
buy.

TMT


Amazon sells a HP Q7553X compatible cartridge for the HP2015 printer
for $33. And that's the high yield one (7000 pages)

The HP branded 3000-page catridge goes for $78.

On Nov 9, 11:53*am, "
wrote:
On Nov 9, 12:19*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Robert...ever buy an inkjet printer with a cartridge that would only
print a few pages?

And then the next cartridge you buy is full...and damn expensive.

The same MBAs and marketeers go to the same schools...and are taught
the same approaches to separate us from our money.

All too true. *And likening it to putting less coffee in the can was
the perfect simile, too.

Over the years I have become used to the cheapening of the whole tool
package. *When one of us gets a new tool, we often say things like
"remember when these used to come with a really nice case?" or "that
tool used to come with a great blade on it (or a bit set) *when you
bought it" or "yup, *I remember when the rip guide came with one of
these".

I am used to the marketers leaving out the niceties, and in some cases
useful parts and pieces to make sure they get what they want on their
end.

But to chop down the actual usefulness of the tool so badly was a huge
surprise.

And as noted somewhere else here recently, I truly believe that it is
all about selling the batteries now. *Once again, the reference to
inkjet printers if completely spot on.

Robert

You will see this game played with any "consumable" product...one that
you need to buy again and again.

Food items, razors, drill batteries. ;)

If you recall the old style gas pumps with the glass cylinder, the
glass cylinder was used so a consumer actually saw how much they were
getting.

Wanna bet it came about because someone was playing games?

TMT

wrote in message
...


They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.


Hey Robert - how's it goin? I missed the opener of this thread. So -
you're saying that HD and like vendors are now halving the battery in their
tools? Is this just Rigid, or other manufacturers as well?

--

-Mike-

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
On 11/06/2009 10:31 PM, wrote:

They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.

All the big names still produce and sell the bigger batteries...it's
probably just that HD doesn't want to carry them because they can sell
far more of the "compact" tools with lower capacity batteries to the
homeowner crowd.


That would make no sense. Home Depot counts on their contractor business,
heavily.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...


They are screwing the tool users by selling an ++NEEDLESSLY++
inferior tools at a high price. There sold these same drills last
year wtih 3 Ah batteries, but replaced them with crap.
On purpose. They replaced a 3 Ah battery with a1.5 Ah battery.


Hey Robert - how's it goin? I missed the opener of this thread. So -
you're saying that HD and like vendors are now halving the battery in
their tools? Is this just Rigid, or other manufacturers as well?


Nix on this Robert - I see the genesis of this thread, as another thread.


--

-Mike-

On Nov 20, 12:06 pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


Hey Robert - how's it goin? I missed the opener of this thread. So -
you're saying that HD and like vendors are now halving the battery in their
tools? Is this just Rigid, or other manufacturers as well?

Hey Mike! Good to see you around.

No, it isn't just HD. Almost all of them started with the 3ah
battery, or offered it as a choice. But they changed them batteries
on the drills to a less powerful one, almost across the board. I
believe that DeWalt and Makita still have the 3ah battery as standard
batts on their hammer drill models, but that is it.

Don't get me wrong, you can still buy a 3ah battery for any of these
drills. But they no longer come as standard equipment on these
drills.

And the more I read and talk to guys about the longevity of the Li
batteries, the less I like them. I have spoken with two national
battery rebuilders and they have told me the same thing. Stay away
from the Li batteries as they don't have the stamina needed for daily
professional use.

But... the big plan is for ALL tools to be converted to Li in another
12 months. The Milwaukee/Ridgid rep is a great guy, and he told me
they were told that in one of their meetings. There simply won't be
anymore NiCad tools, and they will be phasing out NiMh as well.

It will be interesting to see of the folks that like their Li tools
will still love them later. I don't care about the weekend guys - Li
sounds great for them. But when the batteries are $85 each, I want
them to stand hard DAILY use like my old NiCads.

The rebuilders I talked to said they would be surprised if the Li
batteries that were used daily to the point of discharge would be
worth putting in the tool after a couple of years.

It seems to me that we will now be subsidizing the prices of the
drills by buying more expensive batteries on a more frequent basis.

Robertt

wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:06 pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


Hey Robert - how's it goin? I missed the opener of this thread. So
- you're saying that HD and like vendors are now halving the battery
in their tools? Is this just Rigid, or other manufacturers as well?

Hey Mike! Good to see you around.

No, it isn't just HD. Almost all of them started with the 3ah
battery, or offered it as a choice. But they changed them batteries
on the drills to a less powerful one, almost across the board. I
believe that DeWalt and Makita still have the 3ah battery as standard
batts on their hammer drill models, but that is it.

Don't get me wrong, you can still buy a 3ah battery for any of these
drills. But they no longer come as standard equipment on these
drills.

And the more I read and talk to guys about the longevity of the Li
batteries, the less I like them. I have spoken with two national
battery rebuilders and they have told me the same thing. Stay away
from the Li batteries as they don't have the stamina needed for daily
professional use.

But... the big plan is for ALL tools to be converted to Li in another
12 months. The Milwaukee/Ridgid rep is a great guy, and he told me
they were told that in one of their meetings. There simply won't be
anymore NiCad tools, and they will be phasing out NiMh as well.

It will be interesting to see of the folks that like their Li tools
will still love them later. I don't care about the weekend guys - Li
sounds great for them. But when the batteries are $85 each, I want
them to stand hard DAILY use like my old NiCads.

The rebuilders I talked to said they would be surprised if the Li
batteries that were used daily to the point of discharge would be
worth putting in the tool after a couple of years.

It seems to me that we will now be subsidizing the prices of the
drills by buying more expensive batteries on a more frequent basis.

I don't know about the other manufacturers, but deWalt lithium ion batteries
are interchangeable in their tools with NiMH, so even if they stop selling
the NiMH batteries there are lots of them around that can be rebuilt.

On Nov 21, 12:05 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

I don't know about the other manufacturers, but deWalt lithium ion batteries
are interchangeable in their tools with NiMH, so even if they stop selling
the NiMH batteries there are lots of them around that can be rebuilt.

Absolutely true. And as a matter of fact, the cordless tools don't
care what kind of battery they get their power from as long as it is
within the correct voltage variances they can handle.

After a lot of looking around, I decided to have my old NiMh batteries
rebuilt as NiCads.

The NiMh batteries discharged in the truck too fast, and in the summer
they would stay charged in the tool box for more than 2 - 3 days in
the 100+ days we have here.

While I knew that both heat and cold had a very bad effect on all
types of batteries, I had used my NiCad drills for so long I just took
them for granted. I thought the NiMh drill would be OK in the work
truck, like the old NiCad. We don't have much cold weather down here,
an occasional freeze or so, but I guess 140 degrees F in the cab and
tool boxes were way too much for them over the summer months.

In the end, BOTH NiMh batteries only lasted a little over a year.
There is a LOT of information about battery life and usability in
regards to heat and cold. I didn't know there was a difference a few
years ago when I go the NiMh powered drill. I just didn't know there
was that much difference in performance with the batteries, or I
wouldn't have bought NiMh.

I should have been great..... 2.6ma rated, one hour charger, no memory
effect (real or perceived), all metal planetary gears, clutch lockout,
excellent chuck, lots of torque.... I was sold.

Worse drill I ever bought, due to the batteries.

I carved up one battery pretty badly with my Dremel to get it open to
see how it was assembled. I got the second one open (these were not
screwed together) after finding the contact/glue points of the battery
casing.

I cross referenced the old battery type and size and bought a new
Makita NiCad that fits my drill from Amazon. After I sliced the case
open, the "Battery Techs" company here rebuilt the good case for $38
including tax.

Back in the saddle with a great drill that works fine for $90.

One of the keys that made this work though, was the fact that the
Makita charge is a "smart charger" and can detect the difference
between NiCad and NiMh. Changing over the batteries to NiCad didn't
mean I had to buy a new $75 charger as well.

Robert