Since that last review went over so well... :-\

I'm breaking this up into sections so that I may assimilate the
backlash in bite-sized nuggets. And for you who missed it - Great!

Agree or disagree, but as Sergeant Friday says, Just the Facts, Ma'am.
If in error, you may call me on it, but it's a report, not brand
debate. I have found other's "real world" assessments of tools very
helpful in selecting a product from the myriad available. I have read
reviews in the rags that, upon viewing the object of their glowing
affection, have provoked the question, "Are we talking about the same
widget here? And just what criteria are they using?" Sarcasm and
humor may (or may not?) accompany this information. This is as much
for entertainment's sake as for information. Benchmarks have long
been a part of my life in the electronics and computer biz, so...

A salesman once told me, "I hate those magazines. I just can't make
their readers happy." And as I pondered his dilemma, I considered
the variabilities between machines, potential mis-interpretation of
the data, and the "Slick Willy" factor and came to the conclusion that
he may or may not be right.

So, here we are...

Came close to just selling it all - too much aggravation and expense.
And there is no point in having this stuff if the primary tool of use
is such a POS that you don't want to use it, or go deaf from trying.

So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
Decided to look around at other brands - I looked at Lobo's,
General's, Jets, Powermatics. I looked in the paper for gnused. And
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. Wasn't about to wait on delivery trucks, freight
damage claims, or shipment of missing and broken parts. I wasn't
going to spend $2200 on a cabinet saw. And like the kid in the candy
store, I wanted it NOW. So please, spare me the web referrals and the
"Here's what I got". I appreciate the gesture, but it's not germane.
Everything in life is a collection of compromises. G

And since the results are being held to a higher standard, I'll
briefly touch upon the methodology used to obtain the sample.

I like simple, durable, uncomplicated machines. No gilmer belt driven
height adjusters, no plastic internals, no off-the-wall imported parts
you can't find replacements for in 3 years. No parts that have been
re-engineered every season in concert with marketing hyperbola.

Just Big, Dumb, and Strong. Like my women. ducking...
And that about sums up the Delta Unisaw - so far.
(And if anyone wants an Old Chicago 16", 3HP for $400, let me know.)

The requirements were :
Left tilt, 2-5 HP, long, sturdy fence with cursor on the right side of
the fence and 36" or greater ripping capacity. Ease of obtaining
replacement parts. Durabil... Oh, we covered that already.

Anyone who has read my other longwinded, bombastic reviews knows that
I generally check a few pertinent characteristics with basic measuring
instruments. In this case, a replacement Delta Unisaw was obtained on
the chance that I simply "got a bad one", and this is my assessment of
that replacement. My critiques of Delta's Q.C. are still applicable,
and I still feel that a multistage Q.C. is a necessity when working
with beings as inconsistent as humans, and that a unit in that
condition should have been caught. It's far too expensive to ship
defective products around the country, especially in light of current
fuel costs, and is simply a good business model. So it costs you a
round of golf. JMHO.

Unit had been demo'd. But the top was apparently re-ground.
You guys should really wash the grinding dust out of the extension
table holes before re-assembling the unit. Grey grit makes an
annoying job, well... annoying. So, boys and girls, clean those
threads and make your life much easier. I used solvent and a rag,
rolled into a point to probe out what I could. An air-nozzle finished
off the rest. It would be much easier to do this before assembling
the table to the base, as the backs of several holes are blocked by
the cabinet and trunnion mounts. FYI.

The foamed in place packing was a real PITA. The guy that did this
was definitely intent on filling this sucker up. I had to cut
portions out with a handheld sheetrock hole saw. But considering the
handling freight can receive, I didn't mind too much. All of the foam
was contained in bags, until I attacked it with a jagged saw blade.

Runout of the arbor - .0005"
(Yes, this is acceptable.)
Cleaned and lightly oiled flange and dial indicator.
(No, it's not from Harbor Freight.)
Average of two points on the flange.

Arbor seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact, big
hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind.

They call it a GPE switch, but that is an acronym for it's vendor, not
it's name. And it's neither, anymore. Now it's an NHD switch, so jot
that down in your acronym handbook for when you go shopping.
And that represents NHD Industrial Co., Ltd. And as you can tell from
their own company description: This is for you, Swingdude!

We are professional manufacturer of magnetic switch.

They are also Taiwanese.

The NHD magnetic/overload switches are classic Taiwanese electronics
items - well made, well spec'd, but slightly on the delicate side.
Tight control over costs is what makes them so competitive.
So kiss off another US company...

Table surface quality is far better than the original unit. The grind
is clean. It's no Powermatic, but if a polish job is worth $900, then
I'm in the wrong business. BFG

However, the table flatness is not as good as the original unit. For
some reason, and I'm no metallurgist, the area around the throat plate
opening is problematic. This is one factor that made my old saw so
irritating. There is a hump on the left side of the throat. Seems to
be a common ailment in cast-iron tables from Delta and others.
Cast-iron table located by it's mounting points on a jig, ground in a
matter of seconds by a huge grinding wheel. Under those conditions,
the malleability of iron is prominent. I hope you guys have a support
under that throat, 'cause it's moving on ya.

Table Flatness:
Within .003 across most of the table.
..035 Front Left to Right Rear
..028 Front Right to Left Rear.
Varying between .006" and .012" across the throat.

If it weren't for the hump around the throat, we'd be there.
It runs in a narrow band along the trailing edge of the grinder,
assuming the setup I envision is used. (It's on the left...)

It's far better than what I've been using, but seems a little lax to
me. The proof of the pudding is in the cuts, however.

Clearance between the miter T-track bottom and the table surface is
..418 in the rear, and .424 in the front - even within .006" and
identical on both sides. Clearance between an "average" miter gauge
and table top is considerably more than the .001" of the last unit at
a more conventional .018-.020".

I'll finish off this sucker next time I sit down to eat a bagel.
So look forward to Part 2 - at an Internet Cafe near you.


Greg G.

Greg,

Just a thought to ponder since you're considering another refurbished unit.
The warranty on a new tablesaw is 2 years (180 days on a refurb) so it is
possible that the refurb you're getting is at least two years old (or older)
and possibly has seen lots of use and abuse. Could be these were factory
rejects also but I rather doubt that.

Since you said that Delta removes the original serial number, then you have
no way of knowing the saw's true vintage. May or may not be helpful to know
that but if an item was made during the period of time a company was in
transition, or having other problems, that particular year may not be a good
choice and you would be better off going with something else.

Your money,

Bob S.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Since that last review went over so well... :-\

I'm breaking this up into sections so that I may assimilate the
backlash in bite-sized nuggets. And for you who missed it - Great!

Agree or disagree, but as Sergeant Friday says, Just the Facts, Ma'am.
If in error, you may call me on it, but it's a report, not brand
debate. I have found other's "real world" assessments of tools very
helpful in selecting a product from the myriad available. I have read
reviews in the rags that, upon viewing the object of their glowing
affection, have provoked the question, "Are we talking about the same
widget here? And just what criteria are they using?" Sarcasm and
humor may (or may not?) accompany this information. This is as much
for entertainment's sake as for information. Benchmarks have long
been a part of my life in the electronics and computer biz, so...

A salesman once told me, "I hate those magazines. I just can't make
their readers happy." And as I pondered his dilemma, I considered
the variabilities between machines, potential mis-interpretation of
the data, and the "Slick Willy" factor and came to the conclusion that
he may or may not be right.

So, here we are...

Came close to just selling it all - too much aggravation and expense.
And there is no point in having this stuff if the primary tool of use
is such a POS that you don't want to use it, or go deaf from trying.

So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
Decided to look around at other brands - I looked at Lobo's,
General's, Jets, Powermatics. I looked in the paper for gnused. And
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. Wasn't about to wait on delivery trucks, freight
damage claims, or shipment of missing and broken parts. I wasn't
going to spend $2200 on a cabinet saw. And like the kid in the candy
store, I wanted it NOW. So please, spare me the web referrals and the
"Here's what I got". I appreciate the gesture, but it's not germane.
Everything in life is a collection of compromises. G

And since the results are being held to a higher standard, I'll
briefly touch upon the methodology used to obtain the sample.

I like simple, durable, uncomplicated machines. No gilmer belt driven
height adjusters, no plastic internals, no off-the-wall imported parts
you can't find replacements for in 3 years. No parts that have been
re-engineered every season in concert with marketing hyperbola.

Just Big, Dumb, and Strong. Like my women. ducking...
And that about sums up the Delta Unisaw - so far.
(And if anyone wants an Old Chicago 16", 3HP for $400, let me know.)

The requirements were :
Left tilt, 2-5 HP, long, sturdy fence with cursor on the right side of
the fence and 36" or greater ripping capacity. Ease of obtaining
replacement parts. Durabil... Oh, we covered that already.

Anyone who has read my other longwinded, bombastic reviews knows that
I generally check a few pertinent characteristics with basic measuring
instruments. In this case, a replacement Delta Unisaw was obtained on
the chance that I simply "got a bad one", and this is my assessment of
that replacement. My critiques of Delta's Q.C. are still applicable,
and I still feel that a multistage Q.C. is a necessity when working
with beings as inconsistent as humans, and that a unit in that
condition should have been caught. It's far too expensive to ship
defective products around the country, especially in light of current
fuel costs, and is simply a good business model. So it costs you a
round of golf. JMHO.

Unit had been demo'd. But the top was apparently re-ground.
You guys should really wash the grinding dust out of the extension
table holes before re-assembling the unit. Grey grit makes an
annoying job, well... annoying. So, boys and girls, clean those
threads and make your life much easier. I used solvent and a rag,
rolled into a point to probe out what I could. An air-nozzle finished
off the rest. It would be much easier to do this before assembling
the table to the base, as the backs of several holes are blocked by
the cabinet and trunnion mounts. FYI.

The foamed in place packing was a real PITA. The guy that did this
was definitely intent on filling this sucker up. I had to cut
portions out with a handheld sheetrock hole saw. But considering the
handling freight can receive, I didn't mind too much. All of the foam
was contained in bags, until I attacked it with a jagged saw blade.

Runout of the arbor - .0005"
(Yes, this is acceptable.)
Cleaned and lightly oiled flange and dial indicator.
(No, it's not from Harbor Freight.)
Average of two points on the flange.

Arbor seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact, big
hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind.

They call it a GPE switch, but that is an acronym for it's vendor, not
it's name. And it's neither, anymore. Now it's an NHD switch, so jot
that down in your acronym handbook for when you go shopping.
And that represents NHD Industrial Co., Ltd. And as you can tell from
their own company description: This is for you, Swingdude!

We are professional manufacturer of magnetic switch.

They are also Taiwanese.

The NHD magnetic/overload switches are classic Taiwanese electronics
items - well made, well spec'd, but slightly on the delicate side.
Tight control over costs is what makes them so competitive.
So kiss off another US company...

Table surface quality is far better than the original unit. The grind
is clean. It's no Powermatic, but if a polish job is worth $900, then
I'm in the wrong business. BFG

However, the table flatness is not as good as the original unit. For
some reason, and I'm no metallurgist, the area around the throat plate
opening is problematic. This is one factor that made my old saw so
irritating. There is a hump on the left side of the throat. Seems to
be a common ailment in cast-iron tables from Delta and others.
Cast-iron table located by it's mounting points on a jig, ground in a
matter of seconds by a huge grinding wheel. Under those conditions,
the malleability of iron is prominent. I hope you guys have a support
under that throat, 'cause it's moving on ya.

Table Flatness:
Within .003 across most of the table.
.035 Front Left to Right Rear
.028 Front Right to Left Rear.
Varying between .006" and .012" across the throat.

If it weren't for the hump around the throat, we'd be there.
It runs in a narrow band along the trailing edge of the grinder,
assuming the setup I envision is used. (It's on the left...)

It's far better than what I've been using, but seems a little lax to
me. The proof of the pudding is in the cuts, however.

Clearance between the miter T-track bottom and the table surface is
.418 in the rear, and .424 in the front - even within .006" and
identical on both sides. Clearance between an "average" miter gauge
and table top is considerably more than the .001" of the last unit at
a more conventional .018-.020".

I'll finish off this sucker next time I sit down to eat a bagel.
So look forward to Part 2 - at an Internet Cafe near you.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote:

....
So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
....
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. ...

So, if you're bound and determined, what's the point of coming here?

(Not saying the decision is necessarily a bad one, but if you've already
made it, what else is there but to follow through? Nothing you do here
is going to change anything or provide any useful data that you can use
as near as I can tell.)

Duane Bozarth wrote:
"Greg G." wrote:

came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. ...

So, if you're bound and determined, what's the point of coming here?

(Not saying the decision is necessarily a bad one, but if you've already
made it, what else is there but to follow through? Nothing you do here
is going to change anything or provide any useful data that you can use
as near as I can tell.)

While the OP may not gain any benefit from documenting his analysis, it
will certainly provide useful data that some of the rest of us can use.

Greg, I'm enjoying reading about your experiences, as I'm sure I'll be
in a similar situation at some point.

Chris

BobS said:

Greg,

Just a thought to ponder since you're considering another refurbished unit.
The warranty on a new tablesaw is 2 years (180 days on a refurb) so it is
possible that the refurb you're getting is at least two years old (or older)
and possibly has seen lots of use and abuse. Could be these were factory
rejects also but I rather doubt that.

This is true, but I inspected this one briefly before delivery - which
is what I should have insisted on the first time.
I don't believe any of these are 5 year old units run hard and then
swapped out by customers. In fact, this one was only manufactured in
Oct of 2004, and the refurb was done March of 2005. It sat in a box
till now. The ones I have seen are not beat up, and come with all new
accessories. Fence, tables, legs, etc. The motor on this unit looks
like new - inside and out. It HAS cut a few pieces of wood, but in
all fairness, it looks like a demo unit. It is a current production
DeltaX model. I don't believe Delta is trying to dump a bunch of old
crap, but stuff does happen. Cabinet look new, less a scratch or two.
Doesn't bother me. I'm more worried about hammered up mechs...

As for as the warranty, I have learned through years of service work
that things usually break early on. Most complaints come within a few
months of purchase. But caveat emptor. I do my own repair work, so
most of this is non problematic.

My only real concern is getting a 'live' piece of live cast-iron - one
that distorts continually, or has a sub-dermal crack. Compared to the
course, grainy crap that flows from China, these are almost like
forgings - if they make it through a few months, they should be fine.

And as I mentioned, I was born under the FUBAR star - if there is one
out there, I'll get it. G

Since you said that Delta removes the original serial number, then you have
no way of knowing the saw's true vintage. May or may not be helpful to know
that but if an item was made during the period of time a company was in
transition, or having other problems, that particular year may not be a good
choice and you would be better off going with something else.

Apparently, not all have the serial removed. According to the Rep, it
fell upon the individual that did the work to remove the proper data.
Mine has one. Some may have gotten a little carried away...


Greg G.

Chris Friesen wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
"Greg G." wrote:

came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. ...

So, if you're bound and determined, what's the point of coming here?

(Not saying the decision is necessarily a bad one, but if you've already
made it, what else is there but to follow through? Nothing you do here
is going to change anything or provide any useful data that you can use
as near as I can tell.)

While the OP may not gain any benefit from documenting his analysis, it
will certainly provide useful data that some of the rest of us can use.
....

I guess I misinterpreted--I thought he was going on again before and
reposting the old saw data other on the table...not a different unit.

That in a _short_ post w/o so much editorializing would have made for a
more precise reading on my part rather than the thought "been there,
done that" reaction I got...

Well.... I think if he will take the time to read, measure and
assimilate the data into a coherent form, I can stand to read it. Who
knows, maybe the first saw was a POS, and now we find that Frank was
right in defending his old company so vigorously.

I for one and glad to see something pertinent to woodworking posted.
And think about it this way; at least it is actually ON TOPIC
information, unlike the dearth of political/religious fanatical
diatribes that are so common here.

How I long for the days when all we did on off days was whine about
Home Depot, Lowes, and Norm. We all seemed so innocent then...

Robert

Chris Friesen said:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
"Greg G." wrote:

came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. ...

So, if you're bound and determined, what's the point of coming here?

(Not saying the decision is necessarily a bad one, but if you've already
made it, what else is there but to follow through? Nothing you do here
is going to change anything or provide any useful data that you can use
as near as I can tell.)

Duane, I don't only come here to bask in your revelations. g
A lot of people lurk, and might find it interesting.

And it's always your choice to drop me or the thread into your ignore
list. I figure most already have... g

While the OP may not gain any benefit from documenting his analysis, it
will certainly provide useful data that some of the rest of us can use.

Greg, I'm enjoying reading about your experiences, as I'm sure I'll be
in a similar situation at some point.

Chris, Thanks.
I hope it was at least mildly entertaining - that is why people visit
here - to hear and talk about wooddorking and tools.


Greg G.

Duane Bozarth said:

Chris Friesen wrote:

While the OP may not gain any benefit from documenting his analysis, it
will certainly provide useful data that some of the rest of us can use.

I guess I misinterpreted--I thought he was going on again before and
reposting the old saw data other on the table...not a different unit.

That's why it's a ReReview. Not a Review.

That in a _short_ post w/o so much editorializing would have made for a
more precise reading on my part rather than the thought "been there,
done that" reaction I got...

As stated in the first real paragraph, it's partially for amusement.
And that's why it says LONG in the header...
But I guess you're not really amused - hard to tell when you can't see
the audience Seriously, though, how many riveting stories can you
tell about a chunk of cast-iron?

I'll post a concise list of specs when I'm through. (seriously)
Feel better now? g


Greg G.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:13:26 -0500, Greg wrote:

Oh, No! Why didn't he get a General...or a Jet...or anything but a
Delta.........

Already a couple of statements of fact based on assumptions or
opinions that are not accurate, however, not terribly relevant either
and I plan to only react to the important if at all

Frank.


Since that last review went over so well... :-\

I'm breaking this up into sections so that I may assimilate the
backlash in bite-sized nuggets. And for you who missed it - Great!

Agree or disagree, but as Sergeant Friday says, Just the Facts, Ma'am.
If in error, you may call me on it, but it's a report, not brand
debate. I have found other's "real world" assessments of tools very
helpful in selecting a product from the myriad available. I have read
reviews in the rags that, upon viewing the object of their glowing
affection, have provoked the question, "Are we talking about the same
widget here? And just what criteria are they using?" Sarcasm and
humor may (or may not?) accompany this information. This is as much
for entertainment's sake as for information. Benchmarks have long
been a part of my life in the electronics and computer biz, so...

A salesman once told me, "I hate those magazines. I just can't make
their readers happy." And as I pondered his dilemma, I considered
the variabilities between machines, potential mis-interpretation of
the data, and the "Slick Willy" factor and came to the conclusion that
he may or may not be right.

So, here we are...

Came close to just selling it all - too much aggravation and expense.
And there is no point in having this stuff if the primary tool of use
is such a POS that you don't want to use it, or go deaf from trying.

So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
Decided to look around at other brands - I looked at Lobo's,
General's, Jets, Powermatics. I looked in the paper for gnused. And
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. Wasn't about to wait on delivery trucks, freight
damage claims, or shipment of missing and broken parts. I wasn't
going to spend $2200 on a cabinet saw. And like the kid in the candy
store, I wanted it NOW. So please, spare me the web referrals and the
"Here's what I got". I appreciate the gesture, but it's not germane.
Everything in life is a collection of compromises. G

And since the results are being held to a higher standard, I'll
briefly touch upon the methodology used to obtain the sample.

I like simple, durable, uncomplicated machines. No gilmer belt driven
height adjusters, no plastic internals, no off-the-wall imported parts
you can't find replacements for in 3 years. No parts that have been
re-engineered every season in concert with marketing hyperbola.

Just Big, Dumb, and Strong. Like my women. ducking...
And that about sums up the Delta Unisaw - so far.
(And if anyone wants an Old Chicago 16", 3HP for $400, let me know.)

The requirements were :
Left tilt, 2-5 HP, long, sturdy fence with cursor on the right side of
the fence and 36" or greater ripping capacity. Ease of obtaining
replacement parts. Durabil... Oh, we covered that already.

Anyone who has read my other longwinded, bombastic reviews knows that
I generally check a few pertinent characteristics with basic measuring
instruments. In this case, a replacement Delta Unisaw was obtained on
the chance that I simply "got a bad one", and this is my assessment of
that replacement. My critiques of Delta's Q.C. are still applicable,
and I still feel that a multistage Q.C. is a necessity when working
with beings as inconsistent as humans, and that a unit in that
condition should have been caught. It's far too expensive to ship
defective products around the country, especially in light of current
fuel costs, and is simply a good business model. So it costs you a
round of golf. JMHO.

Unit had been demo'd. But the top was apparently re-ground.
You guys should really wash the grinding dust out of the extension
table holes before re-assembling the unit. Grey grit makes an
annoying job, well... annoying. So, boys and girls, clean those
threads and make your life much easier. I used solvent and a rag,
rolled into a point to probe out what I could. An air-nozzle finished
off the rest. It would be much easier to do this before assembling
the table to the base, as the backs of several holes are blocked by
the cabinet and trunnion mounts. FYI.

The foamed in place packing was a real PITA. The guy that did this
was definitely intent on filling this sucker up. I had to cut
portions out with a handheld sheetrock hole saw. But considering the
handling freight can receive, I didn't mind too much. All of the foam
was contained in bags, until I attacked it with a jagged saw blade.

Runout of the arbor - .0005"
(Yes, this is acceptable.)
Cleaned and lightly oiled flange and dial indicator.
(No, it's not from Harbor Freight.)
Average of two points on the flange.

Arbor seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact, big
hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind.

They call it a GPE switch, but that is an acronym for it's vendor, not
it's name. And it's neither, anymore. Now it's an NHD switch, so jot
that down in your acronym handbook for when you go shopping.
And that represents NHD Industrial Co., Ltd. And as you can tell from
their own company description: This is for you, Swingdude!

We are professional manufacturer of magnetic switch.

They are also Taiwanese.

The NHD magnetic/overload switches are classic Taiwanese electronics
items - well made, well spec'd, but slightly on the delicate side.
Tight control over costs is what makes them so competitive.
So kiss off another US company...

Table surface quality is far better than the original unit. The grind
is clean. It's no Powermatic, but if a polish job is worth $900, then
I'm in the wrong business. BFG

However, the table flatness is not as good as the original unit. For
some reason, and I'm no metallurgist, the area around the throat plate
opening is problematic. This is one factor that made my old saw so
irritating. There is a hump on the left side of the throat. Seems to
be a common ailment in cast-iron tables from Delta and others.
Cast-iron table located by it's mounting points on a jig, ground in a
matter of seconds by a huge grinding wheel. Under those conditions,
the malleability of iron is prominent. I hope you guys have a support
under that throat, 'cause it's moving on ya.

Table Flatness:
Within .003 across most of the table.
.035 Front Left to Right Rear
.028 Front Right to Left Rear.
Varying between .006" and .012" across the throat.

If it weren't for the hump around the throat, we'd be there.
It runs in a narrow band along the trailing edge of the grinder,
assuming the setup I envision is used. (It's on the left...)

It's far better than what I've been using, but seems a little lax to
me. The proof of the pudding is in the cuts, however.

Clearance between the miter T-track bottom and the table surface is
.418 in the rear, and .424 in the front - even within .006" and
identical on both sides. Clearance between an "average" miter gauge
and table top is considerably more than the .001" of the last unit at
a more conventional .018-.020".

I'll finish off this sucker next time I sit down to eat a bagel.
So look forward to Part 2 - at an Internet Cafe near you.


Greg G.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:10:55 -0500, Greg wrote:

[top posted for your convenience]

Thanks for posting this. You're a good writer and I enjoy reading well
written material, even though I have no dog in this hunt, having
bought a new Unisaw last year.

By the way you said (in one of your other responses) this was an X5.
Seems to me the X5s have only been around about three years or
thereabouts, so it can't be too old.

Duane Bozarth said:

Chris Friesen wrote:

While the OP may not gain any benefit from documenting his analysis, it
will certainly provide useful data that some of the rest of us can use.

I guess I misinterpreted--I thought he was going on again before and
reposting the old saw data other on the table...not a different unit.

That's why it's a ReReview. Not a Review.

That in a _short_ post w/o so much editorializing would have made for a
more precise reading on my part rather than the thought "been there,
done that" reaction I got...

As stated in the first real paragraph, it's partially for amusement.
And that's why it says LONG in the header...
But I guess you're not really amused - hard to tell when you can't see
the audience Seriously, though, how many riveting stories can you
tell about a chunk of cast-iron?

I'll post a concise list of specs when I'm through. (seriously)
Feel better now? g


Greg G.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:58:18 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

"Greg G." wrote:

...
So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
...
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. ...

So, if you're bound and determined, what's the point of coming here?

(Not saying the decision is necessarily a bad one, but if you've already
made it, what else is there but to follow through? Nothing you do here
is going to change anything or provide any useful data that you can use
as near as I can tell.)

Geez, a guy posts a well written, ON TOPIC, review of his experiences
in setting up a new acquisition and you're complaining?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Frank,

I for one think your input is and has been very valuable. It provides the
technical expertise as well as the sense of the corporate culture behind
what Delta does and why. There's some good information being provided
here - from both points of view and it's been meaningful and I hope to read
your counter-points as well as Greg's findings. Yep, he's biased....it's his
money but he's made the decision to give Delta another try.

You may not like some of his assumptions (how it was damaged and when, etc.)
but the fact remains, he ended up with a damaged tablesaw which indicated it
was not assembled correctly to begin with. You, pointed out a thing or two
out that shows it takes more than a gorilla with a hammer to align the inner
workings of one of these Uni's and some of the rationale behind Delta's
design decisions (UL approvals, etc.).

This is one of the better threads - real information, in almost real time
from knowledgeable individuals.....it doesn't get any better than
this......;-)

Bob S.


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:13:26 -0500, Greg wrote:

Oh, No! Why didn't he get a General...or a Jet...or anything but a
Delta.........

Already a couple of statements of fact based on assumptions or
opinions that are not accurate, however, not terribly relevant either
and I plan to only react to the important if at all

Frank.


Since that last review went over so well... :-\

I'm breaking this up into sections so that I may assimilate the
backlash in bite-sized nuggets. And for you who missed it - Great!

Agree or disagree, but as Sergeant Friday says, Just the Facts, Ma'am.
If in error, you may call me on it, but it's a report, not brand
debate. I have found other's "real world" assessments of tools very
helpful in selecting a product from the myriad available. I have read
reviews in the rags that, upon viewing the object of their glowing
affection, have provoked the question, "Are we talking about the same
widget here? And just what criteria are they using?" Sarcasm and
humor may (or may not?) accompany this information. This is as much
for entertainment's sake as for information. Benchmarks have long
been a part of my life in the electronics and computer biz, so...

A salesman once told me, "I hate those magazines. I just can't make
their readers happy." And as I pondered his dilemma, I considered
the variabilities between machines, potential mis-interpretation of
the data, and the "Slick Willy" factor and came to the conclusion that
he may or may not be right.

So, here we are...

Came close to just selling it all - too much aggravation and expense.
And there is no point in having this stuff if the primary tool of use
is such a POS that you don't want to use it, or go deaf from trying.

So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
Decided to look around at other brands - I looked at Lobo's,
General's, Jets, Powermatics. I looked in the paper for gnused. And
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. Wasn't about to wait on delivery trucks, freight
damage claims, or shipment of missing and broken parts. I wasn't
going to spend $2200 on a cabinet saw. And like the kid in the candy
store, I wanted it NOW. So please, spare me the web referrals and the
"Here's what I got". I appreciate the gesture, but it's not germane.
Everything in life is a collection of compromises. G

And since the results are being held to a higher standard, I'll
briefly touch upon the methodology used to obtain the sample.

I like simple, durable, uncomplicated machines. No gilmer belt driven
height adjusters, no plastic internals, no off-the-wall imported parts
you can't find replacements for in 3 years. No parts that have been
re-engineered every season in concert with marketing hyperbola.

Just Big, Dumb, and Strong. Like my women. ducking...
And that about sums up the Delta Unisaw - so far.
(And if anyone wants an Old Chicago 16", 3HP for $400, let me know.)

The requirements were :
Left tilt, 2-5 HP, long, sturdy fence with cursor on the right side of
the fence and 36" or greater ripping capacity. Ease of obtaining
replacement parts. Durabil... Oh, we covered that already.

Anyone who has read my other longwinded, bombastic reviews knows that
I generally check a few pertinent characteristics with basic measuring
instruments. In this case, a replacement Delta Unisaw was obtained on
the chance that I simply "got a bad one", and this is my assessment of
that replacement. My critiques of Delta's Q.C. are still applicable,
and I still feel that a multistage Q.C. is a necessity when working
with beings as inconsistent as humans, and that a unit in that
condition should have been caught. It's far too expensive to ship
defective products around the country, especially in light of current
fuel costs, and is simply a good business model. So it costs you a
round of golf. JMHO.

Unit had been demo'd. But the top was apparently re-ground.
You guys should really wash the grinding dust out of the extension
table holes before re-assembling the unit. Grey grit makes an
annoying job, well... annoying. So, boys and girls, clean those
threads and make your life much easier. I used solvent and a rag,
rolled into a point to probe out what I could. An air-nozzle finished
off the rest. It would be much easier to do this before assembling
the table to the base, as the backs of several holes are blocked by
the cabinet and trunnion mounts. FYI.

The foamed in place packing was a real PITA. The guy that did this
was definitely intent on filling this sucker up. I had to cut
portions out with a handheld sheetrock hole saw. But considering the
handling freight can receive, I didn't mind too much. All of the foam
was contained in bags, until I attacked it with a jagged saw blade.

Runout of the arbor - .0005"
(Yes, this is acceptable.)
Cleaned and lightly oiled flange and dial indicator.
(No, it's not from Harbor Freight.)
Average of two points on the flange.

Arbor seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact, big
hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind.

They call it a GPE switch, but that is an acronym for it's vendor, not
it's name. And it's neither, anymore. Now it's an NHD switch, so jot
that down in your acronym handbook for when you go shopping.
And that represents NHD Industrial Co., Ltd. And as you can tell from
their own company description: This is for you, Swingdude!

We are professional manufacturer of magnetic switch.

They are also Taiwanese.

The NHD magnetic/overload switches are classic Taiwanese electronics
items - well made, well spec'd, but slightly on the delicate side.
Tight control over costs is what makes them so competitive.
So kiss off another US company...

Table surface quality is far better than the original unit. The grind
is clean. It's no Powermatic, but if a polish job is worth $900, then
I'm in the wrong business. BFG

However, the table flatness is not as good as the original unit. For
some reason, and I'm no metallurgist, the area around the throat plate
opening is problematic. This is one factor that made my old saw so
irritating. There is a hump on the left side of the throat. Seems to
be a common ailment in cast-iron tables from Delta and others.
Cast-iron table located by it's mounting points on a jig, ground in a
matter of seconds by a huge grinding wheel. Under those conditions,
the malleability of iron is prominent. I hope you guys have a support
under that throat, 'cause it's moving on ya.

Table Flatness:
Within .003 across most of the table.
.035 Front Left to Right Rear
.028 Front Right to Left Rear.
Varying between .006" and .012" across the throat.

If it weren't for the hump around the throat, we'd be there.
It runs in a narrow band along the trailing edge of the grinder,
assuming the setup I envision is used. (It's on the left...)

It's far better than what I've been using, but seems a little lax to
me. The proof of the pudding is in the cuts, however.

Clearance between the miter T-track bottom and the table surface is
.418 in the rear, and .424 in the front - even within .006" and
identical on both sides. Clearance between an "average" miter gauge
and table top is considerably more than the .001" of the last unit at
a more conventional .018-.020".

I'll finish off this sucker next time I sit down to eat a bagel.
So look forward to Part 2 - at an Internet Cafe near you.


Greg G.

LRod wrote:


....
Geez, a guy posts a well written, ON TOPIC, review of his experiences
in setting up a new acquisition and you're complaining?

I already noted in another followup I misread the post as essentially a
re-visiting of the previous thread, not another saw (yet)...

I'd like to second your opinion on Greg's assesment. I seriously doubt
that magazine reviews of tools are not biased in some way. I am
impressed by his seeming patients with the situation, I would have
flipped out by now.

Don

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:43:57 GMT, "BobS" wrote:


Thanks Bob S.

my post was tongue in cheek. I'm glad Greg is trying again. I was
upset that he was not going to give Delta and the dealer a chance to
make it right. And I know they will.

I only ask for facts without assumptions stated as facts and no
exaggerations. For instance, on an earlier post there was a comment
about the original saw having " wobble of almost an inch" on the tilt
wheel. Now I don't know if he was talking about radial or axial, or
a combination but I do know that it is geometrically impossible.
Either the mechanism would not turn at all or the two front trunion
bracket cast bored bushings would have broken off. I also know it
would be impossible to assemble in that manner. Was it bent at all?
I don't know, certainly could have been, however credibility is lost
with the exaggeration. I saw the picture and it had a curl at the end
of the keyway from the back bevel. So do both of mine and they come
out of the cabinet at about the same orientation in the clearance
hole.

Another post indicated he was willing to try again as long as the
"Corporation that did this (closed plants, outsourced, etc.) didn't
profit by it. Easy to do, just buy. The corporation that initiated
the failed strategy is long out of the picture. Once they began to
realize what they had done they were smart enough to sell the tool
group to B & D. B & D seems to be excited by finally having a
stationary industrial line and has a much better plan, and I hope they
understand the value of the Delta tradition.

I will continue to post what I know and challenge posts that I know
are not true. Delta has many competitors and many of them are worthy.
Delta is also not perfect, far from it. Individuals make their buying
decisions based on many factors and I would never question those
individual decisions. I do think that everyone should get as much
good accurate information as possible when making those decisions.

And I remain sincere in my offer to help Greg or anyone else with what
I know about the machinery and the company that makes it.

Frank


Frank,

I for one think your input is and has been very valuable. It provides the
technical expertise as well as the sense of the corporate culture behind
what Delta does and why. There's some good information being provided
here - from both points of view and it's been meaningful and I hope to read
your counter-points as well as Greg's findings. Yep, he's biased....it's his
money but he's made the decision to give Delta another try.

You may not like some of his assumptions (how it was damaged and when, etc.)
but the fact remains, he ended up with a damaged tablesaw which indicated it
was not assembled correctly to begin with. You, pointed out a thing or two
out that shows it takes more than a gorilla with a hammer to align the inner
workings of one of these Uni's and some of the rationale behind Delta's
design decisions (UL approvals, etc.).

This is one of the better threads - real information, in almost real time
from knowledgeable individuals.....it doesn't get any better than
this......;-)

Bob S.


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:13:26 -0500, Greg wrote:

Oh, No! Why didn't he get a General...or a Jet...or anything but a
Delta.........

Already a couple of statements of fact based on assumptions or
opinions that are not accurate, however, not terribly relevant either
and I plan to only react to the important if at all

Frank.


Since that last review went over so well... :-\

I'm breaking this up into sections so that I may assimilate the
backlash in bite-sized nuggets. And for you who missed it - Great!

Agree or disagree, but as Sergeant Friday says, Just the Facts, Ma'am.
If in error, you may call me on it, but it's a report, not brand
debate. I have found other's "real world" assessments of tools very
helpful in selecting a product from the myriad available. I have read
reviews in the rags that, upon viewing the object of their glowing
affection, have provoked the question, "Are we talking about the same
widget here? And just what criteria are they using?" Sarcasm and
humor may (or may not?) accompany this information. This is as much
for entertainment's sake as for information. Benchmarks have long
been a part of my life in the electronics and computer biz, so...

A salesman once told me, "I hate those magazines. I just can't make
their readers happy." And as I pondered his dilemma, I considered
the variabilities between machines, potential mis-interpretation of
the data, and the "Slick Willy" factor and came to the conclusion that
he may or may not be right.

So, here we are...

Came close to just selling it all - too much aggravation and expense.
And there is no point in having this stuff if the primary tool of use
is such a POS that you don't want to use it, or go deaf from trying.

So, I again went in quest of the "Ultimate Affordable Cabinet Saw."
Decided to look around at other brands - I looked at Lobo's,
General's, Jets, Powermatics. I looked in the paper for gnused. And
came to the conclusion that, for me, the Delta Unisaw refurb unit was
worth another shot. Wasn't about to wait on delivery trucks, freight
damage claims, or shipment of missing and broken parts. I wasn't
going to spend $2200 on a cabinet saw. And like the kid in the candy
store, I wanted it NOW. So please, spare me the web referrals and the
"Here's what I got". I appreciate the gesture, but it's not germane.
Everything in life is a collection of compromises. G

And since the results are being held to a higher standard, I'll
briefly touch upon the methodology used to obtain the sample.

I like simple, durable, uncomplicated machines. No gilmer belt driven
height adjusters, no plastic internals, no off-the-wall imported parts
you can't find replacements for in 3 years. No parts that have been
re-engineered every season in concert with marketing hyperbola.

Just Big, Dumb, and Strong. Like my women. ducking...
And that about sums up the Delta Unisaw - so far.
(And if anyone wants an Old Chicago 16", 3HP for $400, let me know.)

The requirements were :
Left tilt, 2-5 HP, long, sturdy fence with cursor on the right side of
the fence and 36" or greater ripping capacity. Ease of obtaining
replacement parts. Durabil... Oh, we covered that already.

Anyone who has read my other longwinded, bombastic reviews knows that
I generally check a few pertinent characteristics with basic measuring
instruments. In this case, a replacement Delta Unisaw was obtained on
the chance that I simply "got a bad one", and this is my assessment of
that replacement. My critiques of Delta's Q.C. are still applicable,
and I still feel that a multistage Q.C. is a necessity when working
with beings as inconsistent as humans, and that a unit in that
condition should have been caught. It's far too expensive to ship
defective products around the country, especially in light of current
fuel costs, and is simply a good business model. So it costs you a
round of golf. JMHO.

Unit had been demo'd. But the top was apparently re-ground.
You guys should really wash the grinding dust out of the extension
table holes before re-assembling the unit. Grey grit makes an
annoying job, well... annoying. So, boys and girls, clean those
threads and make your life much easier. I used solvent and a rag,
rolled into a point to probe out what I could. An air-nozzle finished
off the rest. It would be much easier to do this before assembling
the table to the base, as the backs of several holes are blocked by
the cabinet and trunnion mounts. FYI.

The foamed in place packing was a real PITA. The guy that did this
was definitely intent on filling this sucker up. I had to cut
portions out with a handheld sheetrock hole saw. But considering the
handling freight can receive, I didn't mind too much. All of the foam
was contained in bags, until I attacked it with a jagged saw blade.

Runout of the arbor - .0005"
(Yes, this is acceptable.)
Cleaned and lightly oiled flange and dial indicator.
(No, it's not from Harbor Freight.)
Average of two points on the flange.

Arbor seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact, big
hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind.

They call it a GPE switch, but that is an acronym for it's vendor, not
it's name. And it's neither, anymore. Now it's an NHD switch, so jot
that down in your acronym handbook for when you go shopping.
And that represents NHD Industrial Co., Ltd. And as you can tell from
their own company description: This is for you, Swingdude!

We are professional manufacturer of magnetic switch.

They are also Taiwanese.

The NHD magnetic/overload switches are classic Taiwanese electronics
items - well made, well spec'd, but slightly on the delicate side.
Tight control over costs is what makes them so competitive.
So kiss off another US company...

Table surface quality is far better than the original unit. The grind
is clean. It's no Powermatic, but if a polish job is worth $900, then
I'm in the wrong business. BFG

However, the table flatness is not as good as the original unit. For
some reason, and I'm no metallurgist, the area around the throat plate
opening is problematic. This is one factor that made my old saw so
irritating. There is a hump on the left side of the throat. Seems to
be a common ailment in cast-iron tables from Delta and others.
Cast-iron table located by it's mounting points on a jig, ground in a
matter of seconds by a huge grinding wheel. Under those conditions,
the malleability of iron is prominent. I hope you guys have a support
under that throat, 'cause it's moving on ya.

Table Flatness:
Within .003 across most of the table.
.035 Front Left to Right Rear
.028 Front Right to Left Rear.
Varying between .006" and .012" across the throat.

If it weren't for the hump around the throat, we'd be there.
It runs in a narrow band along the trailing edge of the grinder,
assuming the setup I envision is used. (It's on the left...)

It's far better than what I've been using, but seems a little lax to
me. The proof of the pudding is in the cuts, however.

Clearance between the miter T-track bottom and the table surface is
.418 in the rear, and .424 in the front - even within .006" and
identical on both sides. Clearance between an "average" miter gauge
and table top is considerably more than the .001" of the last unit at
a more conventional .018-.020".

I'll finish off this sucker next time I sit down to eat a bagel.
So look forward to Part 2 - at an Internet Cafe near you.


Greg G.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

I will continue to post what I know and challenge posts that I know
are not true.

IMO, your participation here in that particular context is invaluable,
Frank. Keep it up ... and thanks.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

Frank Boettcher said:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:13:26 -0500, Greg wrote:

Oh, No! Why didn't he get a General...or a Jet...or anything but a
Delta.........

Dude, they were out of Generals, Bummer! Yeah, I'm disappointed too.

But here you have responded directly to my post, yet refer to me in
the third person. What was it you said about the trained monkeys?

And for the record, most of my observations thus far have been in a
fairly positive light - so whatcha whining about? It's better than
the first review. I have seen tablesaw throat problems on Delta, Jet,
Rockwell, General, Delta, and, oh yeah, Delta. It's a manufacturing
problem that has appeared on numerous other brands, and is not
exclusive to Delta. Or Delta. g

[Editor's Note: This is where you develop a sense of humor...]

I have posted product reviews on a myriad of products over the years,
and several times, manufacturers have responded by implementing the
changes based on observations I have made. Whether they came to these
conclusions based upon my reports or through independent research is
moot as long as things get better. I have no agenda other than to
possibly elicit a grin and participate in the free disclosure of
information. Nor will I be anyone's sock puppet. Not an accusation.

Like the DP350 review hearkening from the winter of 2002/2003 - and
the Reeves pulley which was subsequently modified. Let's jump into
the WayBack machine...

--------------------------------QUOTE ON

Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Local: Thurs, Feb 27 2003 12:49 am
Subject: Delta DP350 Drill Press Failure - Review addendum...

Posted a review of the Delta DP350 variable speed drill press a month
ago and now it is time for a follow-up on it's reliability.

Tonight, while using it, it began to rumble in a strange way.
Immediately shut it off, and pulled the top cover. The Reeves pulley
on the drive side had failed.

Apparently Delta has not learned about the differing thermal expansion
characteristics of aluminum and steel. The pulleys are Aluminum and
have a steel press-fit bushing in the center which is keyed to the
motor shaft by a large woodruff key. The top pulley half expanded due
to heat from belt friction, and slipped off the steel bushing. No
setscrews, no splines and no snap-rings are used to hold it in place -
just a poorly designed press fit.

----------------------[QUOTE OFF]

The replacement pulley I obtained through customer service had a
running change implemented - A grub screw - Imagine that. Not the
best solution, but it works. While you may hold my opinions and
observations to be flawed, apparently Delta didn't in this case.

Already a couple of statements of fact based on assumptions or
opinions that are not accurate, however, not terribly relevant either

Or possibly your inference of fact where there was none claimed?
Pot... kettle... black? Comprehension?

Words like 'seems' and 'appears' do not imply declarations of fact,
but of conclusion drawn from observation. Perhaps editorial license
has been pressed into the fringe, but there is nothing dryer to my
mind than a boring factual discourse. I am simply trying to inject
some color into an otherwise dreary discussion. I would hope most
readers could differentiate between expression and cold fact.

The only ambiguous facets of my current discourse involve the
surfacing methods, the surfacing wheel used to do so, and the 'GPE'
switch. So, I'll connect the dots and clarify.

Grey grit in the threaded table mounting holes _implies_ that the
table re-surfacing process put it there. For all I know, Delta throws
freshly surfaced tables into their aluminum oxide mosh pit and goes at
it to the beat of Nine Inch Nails. But it's not likely.

But the grit isn't present on new saws, and has never been on any
other new product I purchased from Delta. But since they were all
carefully crafted in Taiwan, that would make it irrelevant.

Since the gist of the matter was that some bean counting fainéant
allowed grit that is difficult to remove to remain in ALL the threads,
this is irrelevant as well. Perhaps it's my pedantic nature, but
chasing an SAE bolt home through threads loaded with grit is not my
nature of doing things - the grit must go.

Another possible ambiguity involves the method used to affix the table
for surfacing. Concluding from the depths of cuts, thicknesses around
the blank, and the machined mounting points, one would assume that the
table was registered to the bed by these mounting points, as well as
with some ancillary support. This could be inferred as a
misrepresentation, but only if that isn't what happens. But the end
result of whatever methodology they use to machine these surfaces is
that there is a re-occurring problem with surfacing cast-iron.

And simply because a vendor places foreign NHD components into a black
resin box and sells it to Delta doesn't mean that is was manufactured
by XYZ company. It makes them a vendor of sub-assemblies, not the
manufacturer of the relevant electrical parts - that high-priced resin
box is mostly unimportant in contrast to the active components inside.

and I plan to only react to the important if at all

Oh, my God! My miserable life just isn't worth living! G
And here I type this up especially for you, ignoring the couple of
OTHER people out there, and you belittle my efforts. Like a flower
bequeathed to a fraudulent lover - a triviality cast to the winds.

This post contributed nothing but a desire to inflame, and that makes
this comment, quite frankly, a troll. An attempt to polarize a group
of sleepy listeners and avoid meaningful disclosure.

May I also then conclude by the absence of any material follow up that
there was nothing of substance in error of fact and that provocation
was your only motivation for responding?

You are doing both yourself and Delta/B&D a disservice responding in
this manner - IMHO. I am striving to present a fair and reasonable
review of a product that I, as a consumer, have purchased. I've been
complimentary towards you and your attitude is bewildering. And after
many years of posting, is truly a first among non-political subjects.
It's not personal, Dude.

I've worked with these (sorry, you) "Factory Guys" for 28 years.
And most wear the same shade of sunglasses - deep, dark, rose.
They hold themselves and their company high on a pedestal.
No other manufacturer is as well intentioned, as well learned, or as
perfect as your own. And my limited knowledge of mathematics
indicates that all but ONE of them is full of it.

I've repaired and compared products from this country, and then Japan,
Korea, and Taiwan for my entire life - side by side, brand by brand.
The inconsistency of US products is what makes them pale in the face
of the Japanese and Taiwanese products - and it's becoming so with
Korean and Chinese products as well. And let's not even mention the
Canadian, Australian, French, Italian, and German manufacturers, as
I'm sure they appreciate not being included in this petty colloquy.
(I know, I left some of you guys out, but consider it a favor.)

I'm not angry - more likely amused - but neither will I stand here and
suffer circuitous remarks concerning my faint voice in the crowd.
And from what I gather from my acquaintance in Bradenton, refurbishing
is now done in Texas, not TN. Could it be that you're now so far out
of the loop there's a clanking bell around your neck. g
But this is not first hand knowledge, so what do I know?

And if the general consensus here in the wREC is that I should stop
providing these assessments, then I'll be more than happy to desist.

Have a Nice Day, Seriously. :-)


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:43:57 GMT, "BobS" wrote:

my post was tongue in cheek. I'm glad Greg is trying again. I was
upset that he was not going to give Delta and the dealer a chance to
make it right. And I know they will.

It was difficult to tell, but certainly implied otherwise.
The dealer was never the problem, I never claimed they were a problem,
and I certainly don't hold them responsible for the conditions that
subsequently unfolded. This is one reason I refused to divulge the
dealer's name.

I only ask for facts without assumptions stated as facts and no
exaggerations. For instance, on an earlier post there was a comment
about the original saw having " wobble of almost an inch" on the tilt
wheel. Now I don't know if he was talking about radial or axial, or
a combination but I do know that it is geometrically impossible.

The statement stands. As stated in the post, from the backside of the
handle, facing the cabinet and TO the cabinet, the distance varied
almost an inch over it's plane of rotation. I did not pull the shaft
to measure it, and from the looks of things, it would be almost
impossible to remove without destroying the casting or cutting the
shaft. It freaking wobbled - the rim of the wheel moved radially left
to right when facing the machine. I'm sure there was a certain amount
of axial movement as well, due to the bend, but that wasn't the point.

Either the mechanism would not turn at all or the two front trunion
bracket cast bored bushings would have broken off. I also know it
would be impossible to assemble in that manner. Was it bent at all?

The implication that I would intentionally lie about such a thing is
incredulous. And as for the bushings, I guess that would depend on
their clearances, now wouldn't it. I know that when I saw the
wobbling shaft held by that bored in cast-iron arm, I was shocked as
well that such a thing could happen. And no one EVER claimed that it
was originally assembled that way, only that is was refurbed that way,
and was in that condition when I received it. And it was certainly
not easy to turn. The replacement is straight and exhibits no
problems. Why would I fabricate a lie about that? And your clouded
denial doesn't alter it's existence.

I don't know, certainly could have been, however credibility is lost
with the exaggeration. I saw the picture and it had a curl at the end
of the keyway from the back bevel. So do both of mine and they come
out of the cabinet at about the same orientation in the clearance
hole.

No, you don't know. But if you would like to inspect it, it's at the
Dealer's - they aren't going to fix it either. Like you could tell
such a thing from a 2 dimensional picture, anyway. Again, it is a
limitation of the medium. But video demonstrates it clearly.

Another post indicated he was willing to try again as long as the
"Corporation that did this (closed plants, outsourced, etc.) didn't
profit by it. Easy to do, just buy. The corporation that initiated
the failed strategy is long out of the picture. Once they began to
realize what they had done they were smart enough to sell the tool
group to B & D. B & D seems to be excited by finally having a
stationary industrial line and has a much better plan, and I hope they
understand the value of the Delta tradition.

This I agree with. But why the hard sell? My critiques are directed
towards those who make decisions and rectify such conditions - and
that is not you - or is it? The assertions may be rhetorical, but
they are of concern to me, and to potential customers. And these
units were shipped while B&D owned the company, and that makes it
relevant to them as well.

I will continue to post what I know and challenge posts that I know
are not true. Delta has many competitors and many of them are worthy.
Delta is also not perfect, far from it. Individuals make their buying
decisions based on many factors and I would never question those
individual decisions. I do think that everyone should get as much
good accurate information as possible when making those decisions.

This I agree with as well, and is why I posted my re-review.
Besides, I couldn't leave one negative review as sole representation.
But attacking a poster although you have not seen the product or it's
defects, reeks of an intense desire to quell any negative press. And
the implication that I would fabricate faults to smear Delta or B&D is
outrageous.

And I remain sincere in my offer to help Greg or anyone else with what
I know about the machinery and the company that makes it.

Well, that would past tense, but I appreciate that - Really!


Greg G.

Greg G. said:

Frank Boettcher said:

and I plan to only react to the important if at all

Greg G. wrote:

And simply because a vendor places foreign NHD components into a black
resin box and sells it to Delta doesn't mean that is was manufactured
by XYZ company. It makes them a vendor of sub-assemblies, not the
manufacturer of the relevant electrical parts - that high-priced resin
box is mostly unimportant in contrast to the active components inside.

And actually, after viewing a catalog of this manufacturer's available
components (I have a bookshelf shelf full of OEM electronic catalogs),
it is, in fact, an OEM spec'd NHD magnetic switch. Right down to the
knobs, case and internals.
http://www.magnetic-switch.com.tw/Index3-1.htm

What I can't figure is why they included a spring loaded, rotating
collar on the STOP/OFF knob. They could have saved .06 by omitting
that part and substituting a plain sleeve. MFG's start-up delay, I
assume. It does absolutely nothing but sit there, mocking me. ;-)

FWIW,

Greg G.

LRod said:

Thanks for posting this. You're a good writer and I enjoy reading well
written material, even though I have no dog in this hunt, having
bought a new Unisaw last year.

Thanks - You're my hero!
It sounded funny to me, but I'm biased. :-\
I always like to leave'm laughing...

But where were you when I inquired about Unisaws to begin with - I was
soliciting opinions as to usability, etc. g

By the way you said (in one of your other responses) this was an X5.
Seems to me the X5s have only been around about three years or
thereabouts, so it can't be too old.

See my response to BobS, earlier in this thread, where I define the
characteristics of the saws. DeltaX5 models, 36-L31XBC50, new
accessories, etc. Manufactured in 2004.


Greg G.

Greg G. said:

Arbor seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact, big
hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind.

And I totally FUBAR'd this paragraph.
Too much cast-iron on the brain...
A cast-iron arbor _shaft_ would probably last about 20 minutes... g

It should read...

Arbor _mount_ seems cast, but the grain structure looks tight. (The
arbor shaft is machined steel - don't know the exact alloy.) Canadian
General claims a forged arbor (and the only forge in the business) on
their better saws, but to be honest, I've never heard of a broken
arbor shaft that wasn't accompanied by abuse. Bent blades, impact,
big hammers, and bad bearings all come to mind. ...yadda... yadda...

FWIW,

Greg G.

I apologise for top posting a summary. and I may be answering several
posts, I just can't wade through all of this.


"Agree or disagree, but as Sergeant Friday says, Just the Facts,
Ma'am.
If in error, you may call me on it, but it's a report, not brand
debate."

Your words.

You state a fact that I can accept. with whatever method you are
using (other than a Profilimeter) the table seems to be better
finished. But it is gritty and has grit in some of the fastener
holes. Then you go into a diatrobe of assumptions. The table was
apparantly reground and you describe the method that was used to
regrind it. as if you are an authority. as if you know.

table was not reground. Sanded? Maybe, but again not likely.

Grind process as described. Table located on a fixture with three
mounting locaters, not the mounting bosses. ( you machinists know all
planes established by three points all related features must come off
of those locating points). Multiple jacks provide support but are not
locators. Table starts to reciprocate back and forth slowly at
approximately ten strokes per minute. Vertical shaft wheel with grind
segments starts to feed down very slowly. Whole process is
continually flooded with massive amounts of coolant pumped at high
velocity (without which table would warp and scorch) which also
cleans it of previously ground sludge. Feed continues for
approximately five minutes (not seconds), recip is slowed for spark
out and table is flushed, removed, deburred, checked for flatness
(third of four times), moves to double t-slot mill to establish bottom
of slot in relation to the new plane of the top (abandon locators for
this, new plane of the top more functionally important.)

But as I mentioned, it is not important. What is relevant is that
there was grit on the table and you're right, that should not be. And
I don't know how it got that way. Have some ideas but that would be
speculating and offering assumptions.

You are right, area around insert opening most difficult to hold flat.
and numbers on the table while not terrible are not that great

Other stuff (below) when inaccurate, equally not important, and I'm
not going to wade through it.

And yes, I do know the refurb being moved to TX. All prior references
in my posts to Jackson, Tn doing refurb were after it stopped in
Tupelo and before B & D closed on the business and decided at a later
date to move the process to their facility in Texas. And that doesn't
matter either.

And I'm not whining, hope you finally get through all this and
actually start using your stuff. You know woodworking is very
relaxing. And I want you relaxed and in a good mood. Cause I have a
plan. All regular posters stay at your house during IWF next summer.
and maybe a couple of dozen lurkers. Your wife won't mind will she?

Just kidding Greg

Frank



On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 02:21:39 -0500, Greg wrote:

Frank Boettcher said:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:13:26 -0500, Greg wrote:

Oh, No! Why didn't he get a General...or a Jet...or anything but a
Delta.........

Dude, they were out of Generals, Bummer! Yeah, I'm disappointed too.

But here you have responded directly to my post, yet refer to me in
the third person. What was it you said about the trained monkeys?

And for the record, most of my observations thus far have been in a
fairly positive light - so whatcha whining about? It's better than
the first review. I have seen tablesaw throat problems on Delta, Jet,
Rockwell, General, Delta, and, oh yeah, Delta. It's a manufacturing
problem that has appeared on numerous other brands, and is not
exclusive to Delta. Or Delta. g

[Editor's Note: This is where you develop a sense of humor...]

I have posted product reviews on a myriad of products over the years,
and several times, manufacturers have responded by implementing the
changes based on observations I have made. Whether they came to these
conclusions based upon my reports or through independent research is
moot as long as things get better. I have no agenda other than to
possibly elicit a grin and participate in the free disclosure of
information. Nor will I be anyone's sock puppet. Not an accusation.

Like the DP350 review hearkening from the winter of 2002/2003 - and
the Reeves pulley which was subsequently modified. Let's jump into
the WayBack machine...

--------------------------------QUOTE ON

Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Local: Thurs, Feb 27 2003 12:49 am
Subject: Delta DP350 Drill Press Failure - Review addendum...

Posted a review of the Delta DP350 variable speed drill press a month
ago and now it is time for a follow-up on it's reliability.

Tonight, while using it, it began to rumble in a strange way.
Immediately shut it off, and pulled the top cover. The Reeves pulley
on the drive side had failed.

Apparently Delta has not learned about the differing thermal expansion
characteristics of aluminum and steel. The pulleys are Aluminum and
have a steel press-fit bushing in the center which is keyed to the
motor shaft by a large woodruff key. The top pulley half expanded due
to heat from belt friction, and slipped off the steel bushing. No
setscrews, no splines and no snap-rings are used to hold it in place -
just a poorly designed press fit.

----------------------[QUOTE OFF]

The replacement pulley I obtained through customer service had a
running change implemented - A grub screw - Imagine that. Not the
best solution, but it works. While you may hold my opinions and
observations to be flawed, apparently Delta didn't in this case.

Already a couple of statements of fact based on assumptions or
opinions that are not accurate, however, not terribly relevant either

Or possibly your inference of fact where there was none claimed?
Pot... kettle... black? Comprehension?

Words like 'seems' and 'appears' do not imply declarations of fact,
but of conclusion drawn from observation. Perhaps editorial license
has been pressed into the fringe, but there is nothing dryer to my
mind than a boring factual discourse. I am simply trying to inject
some color into an otherwise dreary discussion. I would hope most
readers could differentiate between expression and cold fact.

The only ambiguous facets of my current discourse involve the
surfacing methods, the surfacing wheel used to do so, and the 'GPE'
switch. So, I'll connect the dots and clarify.

Grey grit in the threaded table mounting holes _implies_ that the
table re-surfacing process put it there. For all I know, Delta throws
freshly surfaced tables into their aluminum oxide mosh pit and goes at
it to the beat of Nine Inch Nails. But it's not likely.

But the grit isn't present on new saws, and has never been on any
other new product I purchased from Delta. But since they were all
carefully crafted in Taiwan, that would make it irrelevant.

Since the gist of the matter was that some bean counting fainéant
allowed grit that is difficult to remove to remain in ALL the threads,
this is irrelevant as well. Perhaps it's my pedantic nature, but
chasing an SAE bolt home through threads loaded with grit is not my
nature of doing things - the grit must go.

Another possible ambiguity involves the method used to affix the table
for surfacing. Concluding from the depths of cuts, thicknesses around
the blank, and the machined mounting points, one would assume that the
table was registered to the bed by these mounting points, as well as
with some ancillary support. This could be inferred as a
misrepresentation, but only if that isn't what happens. But the end
result of whatever methodology they use to machine these surfaces is
that there is a re-occurring problem with surfacing cast-iron.

And simply because a vendor places foreign NHD components into a black
resin box and sells it to Delta doesn't mean that is was manufactured
by XYZ company. It makes them a vendor of sub-assemblies, not the
manufacturer of the relevant electrical parts - that high-priced resin
box is mostly unimportant in contrast to the active components inside.

and I plan to only react to the important if at all

Oh, my God! My miserable life just isn't worth living! G
And here I type this up especially for you, ignoring the couple of
OTHER people out there, and you belittle my efforts. Like a flower
bequeathed to a fraudulent lover - a triviality cast to the winds.

This post contributed nothing but a desire to inflame, and that makes
this comment, quite frankly, a troll. An attempt to polarize a group
of sleepy listeners and avoid meaningful disclosure.

May I also then conclude by the absence of any material follow up that
there was nothing of substance in error of fact and that provocation
was your only motivation for responding?

You are doing both yourself and Delta/B&D a disservice responding in
this manner - IMHO. I am striving to present a fair and reasonable
review of a product that I, as a consumer, have purchased. I've been
complimentary towards you and your attitude is bewildering. And after
many years of posting, is truly a first among non-political subjects.
It's not personal, Dude.

I've worked with these (sorry, you) "Factory Guys" for 28 years.
And most wear the same shade of sunglasses - deep, dark, rose.
They hold themselves and their company high on a pedestal.
No other manufacturer is as well intentioned, as well learned, or as
perfect as your own. And my limited knowledge of mathematics
indicates that all but ONE of them is full of it.

I've repaired and compared products from this country, and then Japan,
Korea, and Taiwan for my entire life - side by side, brand by brand.
The inconsistency of US products is what makes them pale in the face
of the Japanese and Taiwanese products - and it's becoming so with
Korean and Chinese products as well. And let's not even mention the
Canadian, Australian, French, Italian, and German manufacturers, as
I'm sure they appreciate not being included in this petty colloquy.
(I know, I left some of you guys out, but consider it a favor.)

I'm not angry - more likely amused - but neither will I stand here and
suffer circuitous remarks concerning my faint voice in the crowd.
And from what I gather from my acquaintance in Bradenton, refurbishing
is now done in Texas, not TN. Could it be that you're now so far out
of the loop there's a clanking bell around your neck. g
But this is not first hand knowledge, so what do I know?

And if the general consensus here in the wREC is that I should stop
providing these assessments, then I'll be more than happy to desist.

Have a Nice Day, Seriously. :-)


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

I apologise for top posting a summary. and I may be answering several
posts, I just can't wade through all of this.

Yeah, it's getting deep... g
I'll try to be brief, but it's hard... oh, so hard...

You state a fact that I can accept. with whatever method you are
using (other than a Profilimeter) the table seems to be better
finished. But it is gritty and has grit in some of the fastener
holes. Then you go into a diatrobe of assumptions. The table was
apparantly reground and you describe the method that was used to
regrind it. as if you are an authority. as if you know.

Uhh, that's diatribe. And it implies a bitter, resentful, possibly
angry, denunciation within a lengthy discourse. I thought my approach
was pretty light hearted. Nothing bitter or angry about it. Lengthy
perhaps - and some enjoy hearing more than the standard 200 words.

Perhaps the use of the term grinding 'dust' is what misled you.
Slurry and waste remaining after the lube/coolant used during the
surfacing process has evaporated equates to 'dust' in my mind, and is
far more succinct.

I never implied that they threw in on a table, attacked it with a
grinding wheel dry, sparked it until it was pitted and turned blue.
You inferred this ignorance on your own.

And it wasn't some of the holes - it was all of them.
All the way through/to the bottom.
But none on the table's skin.
They DID wash it down - just not the holes.

as if you are an authority. as if you know.

Another demeaning, backhanded comment, perhaps?

Hmm... I've done automotive machine work in my younger days, and
unless they've come up with a new sub-molecular surfacing machine, I
have a pretty good idea. And yes, that is an assumption.

I had to build a crude device to surface the side housings on
cast-iron rotary engine parts because no shops were set up to handle
this 'non-conventional' item - and they didn't want to mess with it.
And a homemade lapping machine based on alternating A-B-C-D patterns
was used to smooth the final surface.

So I have a vague idea of what's going on here...
I wouldn't own machinist's tools if I had no inkling.

table was not reground. Sanded? Maybe, but again not likely.

_This_ table was resurfaced. Not the original table to the saw.
Swapped as part of the refurb. Saw has had minor usage - all evidence
supports this. Table blank has seen much more use than the saw
itself. The pads for the insert have been used for so long there are
divots well worn into the iron. That hue iron gets from age. But
there's not one scratch from the miter gauge, no spots from moisture,
no finger prints, no coffee mug rings. Just a freshly cut surface
smeared with cosmoline (assumption - or whatever they put on them).

It was not sanded, the milling marks are clear, clean, but rough.

Stains that have been ground from the surface, but have left behind
the tell-tale signs of their existence. I've worked with cast-iron
and aluminum for many years. Not as a manufacturer, but in the field.
I've seen the before, during, and after appearance of a machined
cast-iron surface.

Forensic determination of a chain of events extracted from an
inanimate object is something I'm fairly good at. opinion

This table is used, and was remachined. - My experienced opinion.

Grind process as described. Table located on a fixture with three
...
snip

Interesting overview of the machinery. But my assumption wasn't far
off either. Different mounting points, speed, and a quick gloss-over
concerning the exact procedure. Never claimed anything about the
machinery itself. And the grey grit suggests aluminum oxide abrasives
of some sort. Looks just like the dried slurry that comes from Al2O3.

And I believe that even the most insulated home handyman knows about
machining lubricants, coolants, surface flushing, slurry, overheating,
etc. Anyone who has sharpened a chisel has some limited experience.
Didn't include a lengthy diatrobe sic about it because....

But as I mentioned, it is not important. What is relevant is that
there was grit on the table and you're right, that should not be. And
I don't know how it got that way. Have some ideas but that would be
speculating and offering assumptions.

Exactly! It wasn't germane to my point.

It's wasn't that big a deal - to me- just a suggestion to make for
happier customers. After some of the stories I've heard here from the
less mechanically inclined folks trying to mount extension tables, it
seemed to be something that should AT LEAST be pointed out in the
manual. Clean out the crap from the threaded holes.

Grinding that bolt into that hole with a wrench whilst trying to hold
a table vs. whipping it in there by hand. And perhaps I'm just an
anal perfectionist, but the though of it all makes my skin crawl. I
pointed it out because the manual neglected to point out this
seemingly obvious fact.

Fastener torque values, longevity, potential stress points and cracks,
ease of assembly and disassembly are all affected by a failure to
remove grit from threads and then forcing a fastener into place.

You are right, area around insert opening most difficult to hold flat.
and numbers on the table while not terrible are not that great

Thanks, we agree on something... g

Other stuff (below) when inaccurate, equally not important, and I'm
not going to wade through it.

This isn't a scientific treatise. It isn't intended to be held to the
highest standards of jurisprudence. It's a freaking book report. g
I didn't know I needed to hire a proofreader.

If only our government was able to be so precise...

Frank, it's not your opinions, your knowledge, your useful input into
problems people may have - what grates on me is the smug attitude.
Perhaps I read too much into the way things are said, but that's how
it seems to me. And believe me, I can be a real asshole myself.
I only have to look down to see the feet of clay. Size 11. g

And yes, I do know the refurb being moved to TX. All prior references
in my posts to Jackson, Tn doing refurb were after it stopped in
Tupelo and before B & D closed on the business and decided at a later
date to move the process to their facility in Texas. And that doesn't
matter either.

Perhaps they'll expedite things and dig a tunnel under the border?
Yeah, that new(ish) Friendship Freedom Bridge in Brownsville is sure
gonna help out there... comedic assumption

And I'm not whining, hope you finally get through all this and
actually start using your stuff. You know woodworking is very
relaxing.

Really? I've heard that - but you couldn't prove it by me. g

But I'm working on it - as I have time. After bolting on the table
extensions, however, I'm having a bit of trouble getting the ridges in
the table joints down to an acceptable level. Tried flexing the
tables slightly during assembly and bolting them down, but after a few
hours, the ridges are back. They really are not flat. The first
table was far flatter, just a lot rougher. I'm still working on it.

The fence doesn't want to clear the ridges in the table joints without
hanging up either. The gauge that they apparently custom cut for each
fence isn't even of any use. If I use that to align the fence L-rail,
the fence just slides on the table surface, and slams into the ridges
and hangs. It would tear the fibers out of the "hand fitted, Finnish
birch plywood facings" if I didn't fudge it. These are things that I
may work around, but some could not. That means a potential
dissatisfied customer and a returned product.

And I want you relaxed and in a good mood. Cause I have a
plan. All regular posters stay at your house during IWF next summer.
and maybe a couple of dozen lurkers. Your wife won't mind will she?

Actually, that would be pretty cool. If'n I had a big'ole barn and a
bunch of cots, I'd say, "Bring 'em on". As it is, I wouldn't have
room for more than a couple...

And SWMBO wouldn't mind a bit - she wants to run a bed and breakfast.
I'm the introvert in the family. Well, me and a few of the animals...

But I'm not certain I want to host a public flophouse for the
International Wrestling Federation. Someone might get hurt by a big
belt buckle...

I didn't even know they were holding it in Atlanta this summer.
COMDEX '93(?) was enough for me...

Just kidding Greg

G


Greg G.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:38:29 -0500, Greg wrote:

Frank Boettcher said:



Uhh, that's diatribe.

You are correct, thank you for the vocabulary lesson. However I meant
it in the archaic , second meaning of lengthy discourse. I certainly
saw nothing violent or bitter either and I apologise if it offended
you. Some would say archaic meanings would be appropriate for a guy
like me.

As mentioned, I don't know how it (dust) got there, just know it
wasn't reground. Or let me qualify that. In one post you gave the
dates of manufacture and the date of refurb. During that period of
time the machinery that does the grinding, t-slotting, milling,
drilling, etc. was out of service. The saw was assembled in Jackson,
Tn, and the refurb was probably also done in Jackson. Jackson did not
have any equipment to regrind. The equipment was being moved from
Tupelo to a subcontractor in north Alabama and was not up and running
until after that time frame.

Additionally, finished tables are not reground because they have to be
remachined in some or all of the other features. t-slots, insert
depth, hole location on skirt and the approach to minimum thickness
allowable in the table body. If a table is bad, they just grab
another table from stock and assemble it to the unit.

Now is there a chance that someone sent this particular table out to a
custom machine shop and paid four times its cost to resurface it?
Well, anything is possible.

If telling the truth about what you know is smugness then I'm guilty.
I think it could be more closely defined as "here is what I observed
or measured, and here is what apparently happened and how it happened
without having enough information to draw the conclusion.

As I post this I notice that chapter two has been added. Do I even
dare to open it? It is such nice day and the sun is out, maybe I'll
wait.

Have a nice day Greg. Put your saw together and use it. Line the
cots up in the garage.

Frank

all the other stuff snipped because of exhaustion