Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Peter Kiproff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

There must be a better more automatic way !

I have a lathe, that I love dearly, I have added stepping motors to it so
it's kinda CNC
however one of the tasks I do is to use the dead center & manually drill a
hole so that a boring bar
can be used to bring it out to the required size.

I want to combine both steps into an automatic cycle, that runs without me
turning the wheels.

My thought was to mount the drill bit on the carriage, lets call it a 1/2"
drill bit 6" long.
About 1" down from the cutting end, Tig weld a piece of HSS in the flute,
sticking out maybe .050"
as the drill enters the material " usually 2" aluminum 3 to 5 " long."
After the first inch the HSS will also start cutting & opening up the hole
further. Then pretending this is also a boring bar keep making passes until
the desired ID is reached.

I assume that a drilling or pecking cycle would be used to get the bit
through & keep the chips out.

What method do you use? Is there a tool for this kind of work?

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.

Helpful hints from real machinists are most welcome.

Thanks for listening

Peter


  #2   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:06:31 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

There must be a better more automatic way !

I have a lathe, that I love dearly, I have added stepping motors to it so
it's kinda CNC
however one of the tasks I do is to use the dead center & manually drill a
hole so that a boring bar
can be used to bring it out to the required size.

I want to combine both steps into an automatic cycle, that runs without me
turning the wheels.

My thought was to mount the drill bit on the carriage, lets call it a 1/2"
drill bit 6" long.
About 1" down from the cutting end, Tig weld a piece of HSS in the flute,
sticking out maybe .050"
as the drill enters the material " usually 2" aluminum 3 to 5 " long."
After the first inch the HSS will also start cutting & opening up the hole
further. Then pretending this is also a boring bar keep making passes until
the desired ID is reached.

I assume that a drilling or pecking cycle would be used to get the bit
through & keep the chips out.

What method do you use? Is there a tool for this kind of work?

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.

Helpful hints from real machinists are most welcome.

Thanks for listening

Peter

www.omniturn.com

They make good tools for the job. I sell and service them if you need
one.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
  #3   Report Post  
Backlash
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?Gunner

Gunner, we just bought a used GT 75 and got it set up and wired Wednesday.
Came with a CNC Enhancements Hydro-turn bar feeder. First off, it had a bad
fan in the controller power supply, and would error out the servos randomly
as to X or Z. I took it apart and found the bad fan, replaced the fan, and
it seems to run ok now. I felt right at home in that thing, being it's PC
based. It ran cutting air all day Thursday without missing a beat. We
normally run Brownies and Davenports, so this will be a new adventure for
us. Any hints to stay out of trouble? Other than education?

RJ

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:06:31 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

There must be a better more automatic way !

I have a lathe, that I love dearly, I have added stepping motors to it so
it's kinda CNC
however one of the tasks I do is to use the dead center & manually drill

a
hole so that a boring bar
can be used to bring it out to the required size.

I want to combine both steps into an automatic cycle, that runs without

me
turning the wheels.

My thought was to mount the drill bit on the carriage, lets call it a

1/2"
drill bit 6" long.
About 1" down from the cutting end, Tig weld a piece of HSS in the flute,
sticking out maybe .050"
as the drill enters the material " usually 2" aluminum 3 to 5 " long."
After the first inch the HSS will also start cutting & opening up the

hole
further. Then pretending this is also a boring bar keep making passes

until
the desired ID is reached.

I assume that a drilling or pecking cycle would be used to get the bit
through & keep the chips out.

What method do you use? Is there a tool for this kind of work?

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.

Helpful hints from real machinists are most welcome.

Thanks for listening

Peter

www.omniturn.com

They make good tools for the job. I sell and service them if you need
one.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli



  #4   Report Post  
Peter Kiproff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

Thank you for the link Gunner, nice looking machine.
Is there a standard tool that can be used on a regular lathe?

or should I try to make a combination drill / boreing bar?

Peter

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:06:31 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

There must be a better more automatic way !

I have a lathe, that I love dearly, I have added stepping motors to it so
it's kinda CNC
however one of the tasks I do is to use the dead center & manually drill

a
hole so that a boring bar
can be used to bring it out to the required size.

I want to combine both steps into an automatic cycle, that runs without

me
turning the wheels.

My thought was to mount the drill bit on the carriage, lets call it a

1/2"
drill bit 6" long.
About 1" down from the cutting end, Tig weld a piece of HSS in the flute,
sticking out maybe .050"
as the drill enters the material " usually 2" aluminum 3 to 5 " long."
After the first inch the HSS will also start cutting & opening up the

hole
further. Then pretending this is also a boring bar keep making passes

until
the desired ID is reached.

I assume that a drilling or pecking cycle would be used to get the bit
through & keep the chips out.

What method do you use? Is there a tool for this kind of work?

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.

Helpful hints from real machinists are most welcome.

Thanks for listening

Peter

www.omniturn.com

They make good tools for the job. I sell and service them if you need
one.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli



  #5   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

In article , Peter Kiproff says...

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.


The only comment I could make here is, the fastest way
to get fired from a CNC shop is to walk away from a
machine while it's cutting. That was a real no-no
in the place I worked.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



  #6   Report Post  
Joe Way
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

On 1 Feb 2004 10:00:43 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Peter Kiproff says...

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.


The only comment I could make here is, the fastest way
to get fired from a CNC shop is to walk away from a
machine while it's cutting. That was a real no-no
in the place I worked.

Jim

=======================
Things change. These days, *many* CNC shops set up jobs that run all
night unattended.

Joe
  #7   Report Post  
Matweier
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

Since it's Aluminum, you might get away with drilling a pilot hole and then a
2-fluted endmill used as a boring bar. Make sure you mount it so that the
flutes are on center at the cutting edge.
  #8   Report Post  
Matweier
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

There's a tool called a "K" drill or indexable drill. It has carbide inserts in
the face. It requires no c-drill or spot. It also bores. Expensive though. It's
a great tool.
  #9   Report Post  
Peter Kiproff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

Thank you Matweier

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

I think I've seen a flat drilling insert on the end of a holder, If the
insert was wider than the holder
it may just work.

Peter


"Matweier" wrote in message
...
There's a tool called a "K" drill or indexable drill. It has carbide

inserts in
the face. It requires no c-drill or spot. It also bores. Expensive though.

It's
a great tool.



  #10   Report Post  
Chris Cox
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

On 1 Feb 2004 10:00:43 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Peter Kiproff says...

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.


The only comment I could make here is, the fastest way
to get fired from a CNC shop is to walk away from a
machine while it's cutting. That was a real no-no
in the place I worked.

Jim


Huh. What kind of place did you work in? The places I worked (Gear
shop, mold shop) were exactly the other way. Once a program had run
once without crashing, it ran unattended except for part changes, tool
offsets, or whatever. Wasn't uncommon to have one person on two or
three machines.

Chris
The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: "Of course it is none of my
business but--" is to place a period after the word "but." Don't use excessive force
in supplying such moron with a period. Cutting his throat is only a momentary
pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.


  #11   Report Post  
SMuel10363
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

The only comment I could make here is, the fastest way
to get fired from a CNC shop is to walk away from a
machine while it's cutting. That was a real no-no
in the place I work


Nonsense ---I have 23 cnc machine that run nites and week ends with NOBODY in
the shop Ray Mueller
  #12   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

In article , SMuel10363 says...

The only comment I could make here is, the fastest way
to get fired from a CNC shop is to walk away from a
machine while it's cutting. That was a real no-no
in the place I work


Nonsense ---I have 23 cnc machine that run nites and week ends with NOBODY in
the shop Ray Mueller


Never had one of them crash? As I said, in the shop
I worked in, the rule was when you were working one
machine, you did not setup, run, or clean out another.
The consequences of a crash there was devastating,
and an observant operator could and did stop problems
all the time before they became "machine down for
repair, for a week."

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #13   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:27:01 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

Thank you for the link Gunner, nice looking machine.
Is there a standard tool that can be used on a regular lathe?

or should I try to make a combination drill / boreing bar?

Peter


No. For what you want..you need the whole machine. G

Thats why CNC is so popular. You program the cycle and load the part and
press Start. It does all the cutting and pecking and turning and
whatnot without touching a thing during the cycle.

The closest tool to what you want that can run on a regular lathe is a
CNC retrofit attachment.

Of course this can be done with air logic, or punched tape drives or
microswitches or even cams and clockwork.
But there is no easy way to do it yourself.

Hardinge AHCs are around a $1000 if you want to start out cheap.

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:06:31 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

There must be a better more automatic way !

I have a lathe, that I love dearly, I have added stepping motors to it so
it's kinda CNC
however one of the tasks I do is to use the dead center & manually drill

a
hole so that a boring bar
can be used to bring it out to the required size.

I want to combine both steps into an automatic cycle, that runs without

me
turning the wheels.

My thought was to mount the drill bit on the carriage, lets call it a

1/2"
drill bit 6" long.
About 1" down from the cutting end, Tig weld a piece of HSS in the flute,
sticking out maybe .050"
as the drill enters the material " usually 2" aluminum 3 to 5 " long."
After the first inch the HSS will also start cutting & opening up the

hole
further. Then pretending this is also a boring bar keep making passes

until
the desired ID is reached.

I assume that a drilling or pecking cycle would be used to get the bit
through & keep the chips out.

What method do you use? Is there a tool for this kind of work?

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.

Helpful hints from real machinists are most welcome.

Thanks for listening

Peter

www.omniturn.com

They make good tools for the job. I sell and service them if you need
one.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli



Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
  #14   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

On 1 Feb 2004 10:00:43 -0800, jim rozen wrote:

In article , Peter Kiproff says...

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.


The only comment I could make here is, the fastest way
to get fired from a CNC shop is to walk away from a
machine while it's cutting. That was a real no-no
in the place I worked.

Jim


Unless you are tending the other 3 machines in the cell. Or its a
'lights out" operation, or you are bar feeding, or...

Depends on the shop, the job, etc etc. Most places the folks dont leave
the machines simply because cycle times are so short that they have to
keep feeding the machine to keep production up.

Chuckle..lots of shops I work in..have a card table in the middle of the
shop. They play cards, etc etc. But they always are listening.....

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
  #15   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?Gunner

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:25:41 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:

Gunner, we just bought a used GT 75 and got it set up and wired Wednesday.
Came with a CNC Enhancements Hydro-turn bar feeder. First off, it had a bad
fan in the controller power supply, and would error out the servos randomly
as to X or Z. I took it apart and found the bad fan, replaced the fan, and
it seems to run ok now. I felt right at home in that thing, being it's PC
based. It ran cutting air all day Thursday without missing a beat. We
normally run Brownies and Davenports, so this will be a new adventure for
us. Any hints to stay out of trouble? Other than education?

RJ


Lots of them. First of all is my cell phone number. 24/7 feel free to
call.
805-732-5308. Ive got free incoming so call as long or as often as you
like.

where are you located and when do you have your training scheduled for?

Hardware stuff...hummm make sure your encoder belt is in good
condition. If you are going to be doing a lot of threading, get a spare
belt. Call me or the factory. If the belt breaks..it wont thread.
Period. They are like $12 or so. Inspect the pulley on the encoder and
the spindle. If the encoder pulley is plastic and the machine is over 3
yrs old, order another pulley. Get the aluminum replacement. Its about
$32 or so. And dont wear out.

Is this a C axis machine or a regular 5hp analog machine?

First big thing to remember about the OmniTurn..is it uses 'closest
moves" Unlike a turret lathe, this gang tooled machine will make a move
at a straight line. from one location to another. There is no pulling
back, moving over. then back in with the next tool. If the next move
happens to be though the next tool sticking out...your gonna bust a tool
G. Unless you program it to move out, and around.

A good thing to do, when writing your first program, is put on paper,
the order in which each tool is gonna be called up. Then put them on the
tool plate in that order. At first, keep them apart a bit, and as you
start getting comfortable with the machine..then you can close them up.
300 IPM rapids dont leave you much time to hit the E stop if you missed
a decimal point. G

Atter writing your first program..or even on a turn key program, :

in Automatic mode:
Load your program
Press F4 (verify program)
it will then give you estimated cycle time, then a menu choice of how to
display the tool path. single step though the program, watching each
move on the command line, and the tool path on the graphics. If you see
a tool path move through the centerline of the part without being away
from the end of the part..thats called a crash. G Fix that. Continue
till all booboos are fixed.

Remember..the machine will program in radius or diameter mode. Diameter
mode is easiest, and you can program directly from the keyboard with a
print in your hand.

First line is ALWAYS G90G72G94F300
G90 (absolute mode)
G72 (diamter programing)
G94(inches per minute) Feed Rate of 300 IPM

Dont try to cram as much stuff on a single line as you can. That way is
madness when trying to debug a program.

Most modes are Modal. When you turn them on..they stay on until you
either change it, or turn it off. Our first line set all rapids at 300
Ipm..they stay that way until you make another G94F100 (example) Fast is
good. Fast up close to a part is bad. Dont make a 300ipm move to .001
from the part. The machine will handle it. It makes a difference if your
part is long or short or out of size. Often this means a new insert.

G95 is inches per Revolution. This is good when you are up close and of
course this is your cutting feed rate. Come up to .01 in rapid, then
change to a G95F.006 (example for most steels) and make your cut. Pull
out a couple thous, change to G94Fxxx and move to the next tool, or stay
in G95 if you are making another feature with the same tool. You can
change the feed rate at anytime..by simply calling G95F.xxx

When making a tool call T2 (example), remember that the NEXT line has
to be a x or z move. It will error out and warn you as it prechecks the
program before running. Usually. Almost always. 99% of the time.

There are lots of short cuts you can do..but when you are first starting
out...dont get in the habit of using them as the next poor ******* who
has to edit your program may not be as sharp as you and will take twice
as long to figure out what went wrong.

Using a line per statement will not make the part run any slower and
makes the editing go easier. Notice..there are no line numbers used.

Avoid long comment lines (Drill .045 at #3% for ABC Company 1-23-2004)
NO punctuation in comment lines! It may run fine for months then go
bonkers. If its on the top row of your keyboard..dont use them! G
decimal points and numbers and letters only!
I make money on people who forget this and suddenly the machine nuts
up. Usually will not break anything..but sizes get bigger and smaller,
etc. It Will drive you nuts G

Before running your first program..insert G10 z-3 in the second line of
your program. This is called Work Shift. This means you run the whole
program, but the tools are all offset 3" away from the part in Z axis.
This allows you to watch where everything is going, without busting
anything G You can change that 3" to anything your little heart
desires..just as long as its longer than the longest tool you have
sticking out .

Before hitting the Start button on that first part...in automatic mode,
with your program loaded..hit F10. This pops up a menu. Press F2 for
20% feed rate override. Hit escape.

You will now notice your feed rate is showing 20% up in the u pper
right side of your screen. Every thing moves nice and slow from the very
start of the program rather than the full 300 IPM. During a cycle..those
F keys also work as feed rate override..F8=80% etc...EXCEPT during a
canned cycle. So start slow.
Hit S for single block, then with your tounge clamped firmly in the
proper corner of your mouth, press the Green Start button, with your
hand close to the Red Motion stop button. This is the final check of
your program. It will slowly move through each line, with you hitting
the cycle start button for each new line. With that work shift..you will
not hit anything before you can kill it. If something looks like its
gonna hit, hit motion stop, escape, and then go in and edit your
program.

When every thing looks hunky dory, F10, F10 (full 300 IPM) and escape,
Hit A for automatic, and hit the green button.

Yeehaw!!! Full bore, balls to the wall. If it still looks good, edit
your program, remove the G10 work shift and run a part.

Measure each feature carefuly. If its too big or too small, look at
which tool is making that feature, then go into F2 (offsets) and inter
the amount its off. If its .003 too big in X, enter -.003. If its too
small, enter .003. then hit enter or change the Z +/- and go on to the
next feature/tool. Remember..tool 3 is offset #3, etc. You have 32
offsets to work with. Each phyical tool can have more than one tool
number (more on that later ( chuckle)

Another thing to remember..if you are working on the back side of the
part..or the far side of the centerline..lets say with a grooving tool,
your x moves are in - numbers. This is REALLY important when you set
your tools initially. I assume you have the manual? Read the section on
touching off your tools carefuly. Then again until you are sure you
know how it works.

OmniTurn has some really super tooling that allow two tools to be on
the same holder, just opposite sides of the bar..really saves space and
time. But they can screw you up if you use one on the far side of the
centerline if Id boring if you didnt touch them off right from the
start.

Hell..I can teach the class..but suspect my fingers will cramp before we
get to constant surface feed LOL.

If you need any questions answered, feel free to call me

And good move. The GT75 is a good machine.

Im in So. California btw and service most of California, Aridzona and
where ever you will pay me to fly. G

Another good site is one I wrote much of, before going independent is
www.omni-turn.com

Drop me an email with any questions about who/what/when/how or why.

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:06:31 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

There must be a better more automatic way !

I have a lathe, that I love dearly, I have added stepping motors to it so
it's kinda CNC
however one of the tasks I do is to use the dead center & manually drill

a
hole so that a boring bar
can be used to bring it out to the required size.

I want to combine both steps into an automatic cycle, that runs without

me
turning the wheels.

My thought was to mount the drill bit on the carriage, lets call it a

1/2"
drill bit 6" long.
About 1" down from the cutting end, Tig weld a piece of HSS in the flute,
sticking out maybe .050"
as the drill enters the material " usually 2" aluminum 3 to 5 " long."
After the first inch the HSS will also start cutting & opening up the

hole
further. Then pretending this is also a boring bar keep making passes

until
the desired ID is reached.

I assume that a drilling or pecking cycle would be used to get the bit
through & keep the chips out.

What method do you use? Is there a tool for this kind of work?

I'm not concerned about speed, even .010" cuts as long as I can walk away
are fine.

Helpful hints from real machinists are most welcome.

Thanks for listening

Peter

www.omniturn.com

They make good tools for the job. I sell and service them if you need
one.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli



Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli


  #16   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:05:34 -0500, "Peter Kiproff"
wrote:

Thank you Matweier

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

I think I've seen a flat drilling insert on the end of a holder, If the
insert was wider than the holder
it may just work.

Peter


They are generally not adjustable in diameter (some very expensive ones
are) and require a pretty rigid machine to run one.

Gunner



"Matweier" wrote in message
...
There's a tool called a "K" drill or indexable drill. It has carbide

inserts in
the face. It requires no c-drill or spot. It also bores. Expensive though.

It's
a great tool.



Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
  #17   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Boreing Holes ?

In article , Chris Cox says...

Huh. What kind of place did you work in? The places I worked (Gear
shop, mold shop) were exactly the other way. Once a program had run
once without crashing, it ran unattended except for part changes, tool
offsets, or whatever. Wasn't uncommon to have one person on two or
three machines.


There were a *lot* of part changes, and the parts
were pretty oversized for teh machines. Part ripouts
from the chucks were not uncommon and could trash a
machine in moments. [1] So the rule was that operators
had to stand by watching at all times. The cycle
times were quite short as well. These were not
bar feeder operations.

[1] typical part: ten inch diameter, 14 inch long
chunk of nylon, being turned at 3000 rpm.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

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