I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

diggerop wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The WoodRat and RouterBoss appear to use the same principles - and like
most of the other router based dovetail jigs - appear to have lots of
moving
parts - most of them exposed - to dust and crud cutting dovetail jigs
with a
router generate. What may work just fine in pristine situations may not
work
quite as well in the real world under real world conditions of use.

Then there are the other practical considerations. Working backwards
think about the following:

1. When not in use - where do you keep the sytem? If it remains bolted
to the wall or a bench - have you got that much space available.
2. What do you have to do to use the router for other purposes?
If you have to take parts off that router - parts which the system
requires - how long does it take to get them off - and back on
- and where are you going to keep those parts when not on the
router? Should one or more of those parts be "misplaced" can you
still use the sytem?
3. How sturdy are the parts and should one break, how easy, and how
much does it cost to replace it?

To the functional parts of the jig:

1. Part Registration & Clamping: These jigs require that the part to
be
cut be oriented in a specific way and at specific locations. So is
there built in parts registration or are you going to have to do
that?
And once the part is where it's supposed to be, how easy is it to
secure them there? If you need to hold the part in position with
one hand, will you need two more hands to secure it there?

If the jig requires two clamps to secure the part to be cut, can
you work each clamp with just one hand? Does that hand have
to be just your right hand - or left? If so, will that be a hassle
for
you?

With most jigs, you have to cut "lefts & fronts" with one set up
and another set up for "rights & backs". If the jig has built in
symetry - ie. left and right vertical stops to register the part
vertically or horizontally relative to where the cutting will occur
that's taken care of. If the jig is asymetric - that responsibility
falls to YOU to work out and do.

2. How is the router supported while in operation? Is it supported
by separate parts or rely, at least in part, on being supported by
"guides/fingers"?

3. How is the spacing for the cuts set? If moveable "guides/fingers"
are used - how easily are they set where you want them - and
keep them there - oriented properly? If anything can move once
"set", Murphy's Law says they will move even if just once in a
while.
THAT is not good when cutting dovetails with a router. So if the
part can move, or the guides/fingers can move - even a little left/
right or rotate, even just a little - the resulting dovetails will
show
the effects of that movement. And faults will ALWAYS occur such
that they WILL show (don't know why they always seem to be
on the "show face" - but that's the way things seem to work).

There's a LOT more critical things about these jigs that can make or
break you - some obvious - once you've used them, some not obvious
at all. And in general a tool that "can" do multiple functions usually
won't do them as easily and or as accurately as a dedicate to one
purpose tool (think Swiss Army Pocket Knife).

I've got the AKEDA and I've really studied it - and compared it to
other "systems" out there. You might want to go through the
stuff that starts on the following web page. It'll give you some
generic things to look for in ANY dovetail jig system.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/A...etailJig1.html

Hope this helps.

charlieb

"charlieb" wrote

I've got the AKEDA and I've really studied it - and compared it to
other "systems" out there. You might want to go through the
stuff that starts on the following web page. It'll give you some
generic things to look for in ANY dovetail jig system.

Damn, when Charlie does a review, he does a review. Mere mortals may have
difficulty getting through all that material. But it is complete review,
not like those short puff pieces that the magazines are proud of.

Good work Charlie.

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
diggerop wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda
at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The WoodRat and RouterBoss appear to use the same principles - and like
most of the other router based dovetail jigs - appear to have lots of
moving
parts - most of them exposed - to dust and crud cutting dovetail jigs
with a
router generate. What may work just fine in pristine situations may not
work
quite as well in the real world under real world conditions of use.

Then there are the other practical considerations. Working backwards
think about the following:

1. When not in use - where do you keep the sytem? If it remains bolted
to the wall or a bench - have you got that much space available.
2. What do you have to do to use the router for other purposes?
If you have to take parts off that router - parts which the system
requires - how long does it take to get them off - and back on
- and where are you going to keep those parts when not on the
router? Should one or more of those parts be "misplaced" can you
still use the sytem?
3. How sturdy are the parts and should one break, how easy, and how
much does it cost to replace it?

To the functional parts of the jig:

1. Part Registration & Clamping: These jigs require that the part to
be
cut be oriented in a specific way and at specific locations. So is
there built in parts registration or are you going to have to do
that?
And once the part is where it's supposed to be, how easy is it to
secure them there? If you need to hold the part in position with
one hand, will you need two more hands to secure it there?

If the jig requires two clamps to secure the part to be cut, can
you work each clamp with just one hand? Does that hand have
to be just your right hand - or left? If so, will that be a hassle
for
you?

With most jigs, you have to cut "lefts & fronts" with one set up
and another set up for "rights & backs". If the jig has built in
symetry - ie. left and right vertical stops to register the part
vertically or horizontally relative to where the cutting will occur
that's taken care of. If the jig is asymetric - that responsibility
falls to YOU to work out and do.

2. How is the router supported while in operation? Is it supported
by separate parts or rely, at least in part, on being supported by
"guides/fingers"?

3. How is the spacing for the cuts set? If moveable "guides/fingers"
are used - how easily are they set where you want them - and
keep them there - oriented properly? If anything can move once
"set", Murphy's Law says they will move even if just once in a
while.
THAT is not good when cutting dovetails with a router. So if the
part can move, or the guides/fingers can move - even a little left/
right or rotate, even just a little - the resulting dovetails will
show
the effects of that movement. And faults will ALWAYS occur such
that they WILL show (don't know why they always seem to be
on the "show face" - but that's the way things seem to work).

There's a LOT more critical things about these jigs that can make or
break you - some obvious - once you've used them, some not obvious
at all. And in general a tool that "can" do multiple functions usually
won't do them as easily and or as accurately as a dedicate to one
purpose tool (think Swiss Army Pocket Knife).

I've got the AKEDA and I've really studied it - and compared it to
other "systems" out there. You might want to go through the
stuff that starts on the following web page. It'll give you some
generic things to look for in ANY dovetail jig system.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/A...etailJig1.html

Hope this helps.

charlieb



Charlie, - my sincere thanks for taking the time and trouble to write such a
comprehensive reply. To quote Lee Michaels, "Damn, when Charlie does a
review, he does a review."

It will take me some time to digest all that you have written, including the
contents of your website, however you have already given me cause to think
about a number of things that up to this point in time,
had not occurred to me. Notwithstanding that, the Akeda certainly looks to
be a front runner.

Now I have a heap of reading to do on your excellent website.

Once again, - thank you. : )


Diggerop

Lee Michaels wrote:

Damn, when Charlie does a review, he does a review. Mere mortals may have
difficulty getting through all that material. But it is complete review,
not like those short puff pieces that the magazines are proud of.

There's only so much that can fit in a thousand to fifteen hundred
words and four pictures magazine article - and that's what they
often have to work within. And they do make their money from ads,
not from the subscriptions.

But even the stuff I do probably has an "I bought it so it must be
good" bias. Let's face it, when you plonk down a chunk of change
it's easy to overlook shortcomings of the thing we were sure was
the best product to fill an existing - or imagined - "need".

To eliminated the Owner Bias, I've been loaning tools to other folks
who know their way around furniture making as well as to folks
who don't know squat about furniture making. I show and tell them
how the thing works and send them on their way to try it. In return
I ask for either a written evaluation based on their experience, or
that I get to interview them and write up their responses. Since
they have "no dog in the fight" they are more apt to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth - as they know it and
have experienced it.

Good work Charlie.

Thanks - I think.

The Silver Tongued Devils at woodworking shows (demonstrators/
salesmen) make it look so quick and easy to make a (fill in the joint).
That's their job - and it ain't to inform you of the strengths AND
weakness of their product - or to tell you all the things YOU must
do exactly right - for the product to perform as the demonstration
implies. And most demonstrations of a joinery making tool is usually
of just ONE joint. In the real world, it's only after you've made the
joinery
on the OTHER END - or on all the rest of the parts - and dry fit them
that you probably will discover that IT AIN'T THAT SIMPLE, even with
their super tool.

I'd like to see the demonstrator make a couple of drawers - to fit
the drawer openings in an existing piece - like we're gonna have to do
in the real world. (OK, so you could build the piece to fit the drawers
-but that would be kind of "unusual".

The reviews I have trouble with is for a tool that isn't like anything
out
there before it. Case in point, the Festool DOMINO. It has the
additional
problem of looking like a biscuit joiner/cutter - at three or four times
the price. And because it does it's job in a way like no other method
it takes more words and illustrations to explain why it's so
revolutionary.
It puts loose tenon mortise and tenon joinery capabilities in an
absolute
novices hands.

If you want to see what I mean about the DOMINO - go through THIS stuff

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/D...OfContent.html

Wish I could condense the reviews - but brevity has never been my
strong point. The hope is that it provides objective information to
a woodworking needing info for a purchasing decision in an
understandable

Diggerop:

Don't mean to add to your list of things to check out
but consider your "needs". The WoodRat and it's
pseudo clone probably do a lot more things than the
AKEDA. And if it's dovetails - through and half blind
- AND all the other things a router table with a
precision positionable fence - with replaceable Zero
Clearance Inserts IN the fence- can also do - have a
look at the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System (which,
coincidently I got before getting the AKEDA for just
dovetails. If you want cope and stick / rail and stile
with raised panels in your project list - it will do those
and then some. But for dovetails and box/finger
joints it'll be a bit more hassle to do than with the
AKEDA.

Lee Michaels wrote:
"charlieb" wrote
I've got the AKEDA and I've really studied it - and compared it to
other "systems" out there. You might want to go through the
stuff that starts on the following web page. It'll give you some
generic things to look for in ANY dovetail jig system.

Damn, when Charlie does a review, he does a review. Mere mortals may have
difficulty getting through all that material. But it is complete review,
not like those short puff pieces that the magazines are proud of.

Good work Charlie.



Amen to that.

T

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Diggerop:

Don't mean to add to your list of things to check out
but consider your "needs". The WoodRat and it's
pseudo clone probably do a lot more things than the
AKEDA. And if it's dovetails - through and half blind
- AND all the other things a router table with a
precision positionable fence - with replaceable Zero
Clearance Inserts IN the fence- can also do - have a
look at the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System (which,
coincidently I got before getting the AKEDA for just
dovetails. If you want cope and stick / rail and stile
with raised panels in your project list - it will do those
and then some. But for dovetails and box/finger
joints it'll be a bit more hassle to do than with the
AKEDA.


Thanks for that Charlie, - more food for thought

......sigh ........ so many toys ...... so little time : )

On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com. I have a worn out standard guide bushing. Not
listed on the website to buy separately. I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.


-Kevin

Kevin wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com.

Just to pile on here, for those in the US, thejigstore.com is an offshore
business. Check your credit card terms and conditions -- I wound up
getting hit with a $20 "currency conversion" charge on my Citibank
MasterCard when I ordered from them. toolking.com in Colorado is also a
dealer, but may or may not have what you want in stock.

One other thing, the C kit from thejigstore was supposed to ship the parts
that were missing at a later date. Thus far, I haven't received them.

I really like the Akeda, I just wish they had a broader distribution
system.


I have a worn out standard guide bushing. Not
listed on the website to buy separately. I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.


-Kevin

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On Oct 13, 5:39 pm, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote:

Thanks for that Charlie, - more food for thought

.....sigh ........ so many toys ...... so little time : )

You don't need to think too much about it if you know what you will be
using the jig to build and what kind of joints you want to make.

I actually bought the Akeda jig and bit set based on Charlie's
excellent, comprehensive review. I was looking to buy a jig for
project that would require a lot of half blind dovetails, and it
looked all too easy with the Akeda.

Although I haven't gotten around to using mine since my big project
fell through, my amigos (again.... Charlie should be getting a
commission for the sales!) have used theirs and absolutely love them.

It is a really nice, heavy duty, well made piece of machinery. I have
a new project coming up that I will be using it for and after the
performance of my fellow professionals, I have no doubt it will fill
the bill quite nicely.

In case I never said "thanks" Charlie,

THANKS A MILLION!

Robert
Thanks for that Charlie, - more food for thought

.....sigh ........ so many toys ...... so little time * *: )

On Oct 12, 11:24*am, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote:
I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. *I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

My experience is #13 in this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...light=dovetail

Listen to what CharliB has to say. I spoke with Kevan at Akeda many
times before I purchased and he has a lot of respect for Charlie
although he has never met him(me neither). Go to the Akeda website
and read the reviews. CharlieB has one there. http://www.akeda.com/

Here is a video also of the smaller, older version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfcDus-l-pU

Here is a review by Woodshop Demos http://www.woodshopdemos.com/aked-1.htm

Enjoy your dovetail jig search.

Jim Eller
Kodak, TN

On Oct 13, 11:54*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
Kevin wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. *I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. *You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com.

* Just to pile on here, for those in the US, thejigstore.com is an offshore
business. *Check your credit card terms and conditions -- I wound up
getting hit with a $20 "currency conversion" charge on my Citibank
MasterCard when I ordered from them. *toolking.com in Colorado is also a
dealer, but may or may not have what you want in stock. *

* One other thing, the C kit from thejigstore was supposed to ship the parts
that were missing at a later date. Thus far, I haven't received them.

* I really like the Akeda, I just wish they had a broader distribution
system.

I have a worn out standard guide bushing. *Not
listed on the website to buy separately. *I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. *It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. *Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.

-Kevin

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

It sounds like the problem is with the Citibank Mastercard. I use
American Express in all my dealings with the jig store and have never
been charged such an outrageous fee for currency conversion. I don't
think it is fair to blast the jig store for something that Citibank is
doing to you.

I have been buying parts from both the jig store and tool king with no
issues. In an emergency, Whiteside makes both collars and router bits
that fit a standard PC base. Check them out if you need one and they
are out of stock at your current supplier.

On Oct 14, 10:51*am, romanf wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:54*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:



Kevin wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. *I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. *You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com.

* Just to pile on here, for those in the US, thejigstore.com is an offshore
business. *Check your credit card terms and conditions -- I wound up
getting hit with a $20 "currency conversion" charge on my Citibank
MasterCard when I ordered from them. *toolking.com in Colorado is also a
dealer, but may or may not have what you want in stock. *

* One other thing, the C kit from thejigstore was supposed to ship the parts
that were missing at a later date. Thus far, I haven't received them.

* I really like the Akeda, I just wish they had a broader distribution
system.

I have a worn out standard guide bushing. *Not
listed on the website to buy separately. *I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. *It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. *Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.

-Kevin

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

It sounds like the problem is with the Citibank Mastercard. I use
American Express in all my dealings with the jig store and have never
been charged such an outrageous fee for currency conversion. *I don't
think it is fair to blast the jig store for something that Citibank is
doing to you.

Didn't sound like a blast at The Jig Store, rather a blast at Citi.
Others often get caught in the bank's crossfire. That's life with
CCs. :-( The (very welcomed) point being, watch your CC's T&Cs.

I have been buying parts from both the jig store and tool king with no
issues. In an emergency, Whiteside makes both collars and router bits
that fit a standard PC base. Check them out if you need one and they
are out of stock at your current supplier.

BTW, thanks all. I'll be in the market for a dovetail jig sometime in
the near future[*], so this discussion is quite interesting.
[*] I really should get a shop built. The garage just isn't cuttin'
it.

On Oct 14, 12:42*pm, " wrote:
On Oct 14, 10:51*am, romanf wrote:





On Oct 13, 11:54*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Kevin wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. *I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. *You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com.

* Just to pile on here, for those in the US, thejigstore.com is an offshore
business. *Check your credit card terms and conditions -- I wound up
getting hit with a $20 "currency conversion" charge on my Citibank
MasterCard when I ordered from them. *toolking.com in Colorado is also a
dealer, but may or may not have what you want in stock. *

* One other thing, the C kit from thejigstore was supposed to ship the parts
that were missing at a later date. Thus far, I haven't received them.

* I really like the Akeda, I just wish they had a broader distribution
system.

I have a worn out standard guide bushing. *Not
listed on the website to buy separately. *I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. *It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. *Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.

-Kevin

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

It sounds like the problem is with the Citibank Mastercard. I use
American Express in all my dealings with the jig store and have never
been charged such an outrageous fee for currency conversion. *I don't
think it is fair to blast the jig store for something that Citibank is
doing to you.

Didn't sound like a blast at The Jig Store, rather a blast at Citi.
Others often get caught in the bank's crossfire. *That's life with
CCs. *:-( *The (very welcomed) point being, watch your CC's T&Cs.

I have been buying parts from both the jig store and tool king with no
issues. In an emergency, Whiteside makes both collars and router bits
that fit a standard PC base. Check them out if you need one and they
are out of stock at your current supplier.

BTW, thanks all. *I'll be in the market for a dovetail jig sometime in
the near future[*], so this discussion is quite interesting.

[*] I really should get a shop built. *The garage just isn't cuttin'
it.

My bad then, if I misinterpreted the comment. I have had such good
service from the Jig Store that I guess I am a little defensive of
them. I placed an order for some bits and other parts with them and
they did not show. So I emailed them asking if they had a tracking
number. JS said they sent it air mail so there was none, but they
would check into it. Got an email a couple of days later saying they
were sending out a replacement package. Total order was around $55, so
it was not chump change. Can't say enough about their service.

Parts outages though are usually not their fault, they indicated that
some parts are on back order from the manufacturer. That
happens.....Whiteside is a authorized alternative. I have used their
collars and bits with great success as well.

romanf wrote:

On Oct 13, 11:54Â*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
Kevin wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. Â*I'm inclined toward Akeda
at present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat
or Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely
versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. Â*You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com.

Just to pile on here, for those in the US, thejigstore.com is an offshore
business. Â*Check your credit card terms and conditions -- I wound up
getting hit with a $20 "currency conversion" charge on my Citibank
MasterCard when I ordered from them. Â*toolking.com in Colorado is also a
dealer, but may or may not have what you want in stock.

One other thing, the C kit from thejigstore was supposed to ship the
parts that were missing at a later date. Thus far, I haven't received
them.

I really like the Akeda, I just wish they had a broader distribution
system.

I have a worn out standard guide bushing. Â*Not
listed on the website to buy separately. Â*I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. Â*It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. Â*Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.

-Kevin

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

It sounds like the problem is with the Citibank Mastercard. I use
American Express in all my dealings with the jig store and have never
been charged such an outrageous fee for currency conversion. I don't
think it is fair to blast the jig store for something that Citibank is
doing to you.


That wasn't meant to blast the jig store but to warn people to make sure
that they know what could happen using their own cards. I have a bit of an
issue since their website also gives a Wisconsin location, so I do feel
they have a bit of culpability there also in not being straight up about
business with them being a foreign exchange.


I have been buying parts from both the jig store and tool king with no
issues. In an emergency, Whiteside makes both collars and router bits
that fit a standard PC base. Check them out if you need one and they
are out of stock at your current supplier.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:24:06 +0800, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment
wrote:

I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

The only thing I can say negative about the Akeda is the availability
of some things, at least at the moment. You can only get them it at
thejigstore.com. I have a worn out standard guide bushing. Not
listed on the website to buy separately. I'm using the oversize
bushing for the tails now which doesn't really affect the joint fit,
but still. It's about time to get new 11 and 14 degree bits, the two
I use the most, but the 14 isn't available. Whiteside does make Akeda
bits, but they are 1/4" shank instead of 8mm, which I suppose would be
fine for the 14 degree bit.


-Kevin

Uh - oh the other shoe drops, but good to know. I have the Leigh D4 and
the finger joint template. After hearing all the recent reviews and
especially the comments made by charlieb I was beginning to think that the
Akeda might be easier to remember how to use. ;~) For me the Leigh works
fine and the finger joint template is a no brainer but I always find myself
refering back to the owners manual for a refreser on how to set the jig up.
Personally I thought the Akeda had too many loose pieces to keep up with but
then I recently built two towers with about 250 pieces. It can be done.
LOL.
BUT as you pointed out and apparently Woodcraft no longer carries the Akeda,
key replacement parts need to be quickly available. something to consider.

"romanf" wrote in message
...


It sounds like the problem is with the Citibank Mastercard. I use
American Express in all my dealings with the jig store and have never
been charged such an outrageous fee for currency conversion. I don't
think it is fair to blast the jig store for something that Citibank is
doing to you.

Hard to say, I have a Citibank Mastercard and recently made an Australian
purchase for $206 IIRC the conversion rate was $6. If Mark's conversion
was $20, did he spend $686 for his Akeda, I hope not.


I have been buying parts from both the jig store and tool king with no
issues. In an emergency, Whiteside makes both collars and router bits
that fit a standard PC base. Check them out if you need one and they
are out of stock at your current supplier.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 5:39 pm, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote:

Thanks for that Charlie, - more food for thought

.....sigh ........ so many toys ...... so little time : )

You don't need to think too much about it if you know what you will be
using the jig to build and what kind of joints you want to make.

I actually bought the Akeda jig and bit set based on Charlie's
excellent, comprehensive review. I was looking to buy a jig for
project that would require a lot of half blind dovetails, and it
looked all too easy with the Akeda.

Although I haven't gotten around to using mine since my big project
fell through, my amigos (again.... Charlie should be getting a
commission for the sales!) have used theirs and absolutely love them.

It is a really nice, heavy duty, well made piece of machinery. I have
a new project coming up that I will be using it for and after the
performance of my fellow professionals, I have no doubt it will fill
the bill quite nicely.

In case I never said "thanks" Charlie,

THANKS A MILLION!

Robert


Thanks for the reply, Robert. From the testimonials of yourself, Charlie and
others I'm in no doubt that the Akeda is the best of its type. Still
investigating ther Woodrat and others, however, Charlie's "Swiss Army Knife"
analogy is undoubtedly correct.

Diggerop

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
romanf wrote:
Snip



That wasn't meant to blast the jig store but to warn people to make sure
that they know what could happen using their own cards. I have a bit of
an
issue since their website also gives a Wisconsin location, so I do feel
they have a bit of culpability there also in not being straight up about
business with them being a foreign exchange.

Agreed, and something to think about, I was under the impression that the
Akeda was American, US. Have they already sold out to a foreign
manufacturer?

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:35:01 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:

Agreed, and something to think about, I was under the impression that the
Akeda was American, US. Have they already sold out to a foreign
manufacturer?

Think so, at least a little bit.

AKEDA The Jig Company
PO Box 700
Brackendale BC, V0N 1H0
Canada

"blackemmons" wrote in message
...
On Oct 12, 11:24 am, "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote:
I'm looking at purchasing a dovetailing jig. I'm inclined toward Akeda at
present but would like to hear opinions on alternatives.
I'd be particularly interested in hearing of experiences with Woodrat or
Router Boss machines, both of which appear to be extremely versatile.

My experience is #13 in this thread
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...light=dovetail

Listen to what CharliB has to say. I spoke with Kevan at Akeda many
times before I purchased and he has a lot of respect for Charlie
although he has never met him(me neither). Go to the Akeda website
and read the reviews. CharlieB has one there. http://www.akeda.com/

Here is a video also of the smaller, older version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfcDus-l-pU

Here is a review by Woodshop Demos http://www.woodshopdemos.com/aked-1.htm

Enjoy your dovetail jig search.

Jim Eller
Kodak, TN



Thanks for the links Jim, very informative. Having now trawled various forum
discussions on a variety of different systems I have no doubt that the Akeda
is a really good piece of gear.
One thing I do have reservations about, is the maximum width of 24 inches.
With that in mind, I need to make some decisions as to what I intend to
build in the forseeable future.
If the available width of the system will do what I need, then the Akeda
will be my choice.

Diggerop

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:35:01 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:

Agreed, and something to think about, I was under the impression that the
Akeda was American, US. Have they already sold out to a foreign
manufacturer?

Think so, at least a little bit.

AKEDA The Jig Company
PO Box 700
Brackendale BC, V0N 1H0
Canada

Well, that woud be better. Wouldn't it.

On Oct 15, 9:19*am, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:35:01 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:

Agreed, and something to think about, I was under the impression that the
Akeda was American, US. *Have they already sold out to a foreign
manufacturer?

Think so, at least a little bit. *

AKEDA The Jig Company
PO Box 700
Brackendale BC, V0N 1H0
Canada

Well, * that woud be better. *Wouldn't it.

As far as I know Akeda has always been a Canadian Company. In fact so
is Leigh. I think they are both in the same town. If I remember
correctly the guy who runs Akeda did the design work on the original
Leigh Jig.....

Firstly, thanks again to all who replied with advice and information. It was
much appreciated.

I have decided that for my main intended purpose, - (through dovetails on
large boards,) the maximum width capacity of the Akeda would be a limiting
factor. In all other respects, it would do all I required and more.

I've decided on a "first generation" jig, primarily to accommodate wider and
longer boards. Similar to the one at this URL.

http://www.gifkins.com.au/

These are the pro's and cons as I see them at this stage:

Pro: Can handle wider and longer boards than many systems. Gifkens gives
a standard width/length dimension of 1m x 300mm, but states that
this can be extended considerably with care. I believe one
option would be to route with a hand-held for larger dimensions.
Can be used on a router table. (I have two, - can use one for
pins, one for tails.)
No bushes or adaptors required on router. (Router bits have
bearings.)
Excellent visibility.
Can do variable spaced dovetails (with spacer shims)
Simple device and intuitive setup and operation.
Australian manufacturer. Spares should be easier to source.
Templates have tail and pin on opposite sides. Once the tails
are indexed, the pins are automatically indexed
as well.
Can do finger joints.

Con: More expensive.The Akeda would cost me almost $1000 landed here in
Australia. The Gifkens package with everything will cost me
around $1300 delivered.
Does not do half-blind dovetails.

Time will tell if I've made a good decision or not : )

Diggerop

"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message
...
Firstly, thanks again to all who replied with advice and information. It
was much appreciated.

I have decided that for my main intended purpose, - (through dovetails on
large boards,) the maximum width capacity of the Akeda would be a limiting
factor. In all other respects, it would do all I required and more.

I've decided on a "first generation" jig, primarily to accommodate wider
and longer boards. Similar to the one at this URL.

http://www.gifkins.com.au/

These are the pro's and cons as I see them at this stage:

Pro: Can handle wider and longer boards than many systems. Gifkens
gives a standard width/length dimension of 1m x 300mm, but
states that this can be extended considerably with care. I believe
one option would be to route with a hand-held for larger dimensions.
Can be used on a router table. (I have two, - can use one for
pins, one for tails.)
No bushes or adaptors required on router. (Router bits have
bearings.)
Excellent visibility.
Can do variable spaced dovetails (with spacer shims)
Simple device and intuitive setup and operation.
Australian manufacturer. Spares should be easier to source.
Templates have tail and pin on opposite sides. Once the tails
are indexed, the pins are automatically
indexed as well.
Can do finger joints.

Con: More expensive.The Akeda would cost me almost $1000 landed here in
Australia. The Gifkens package with everything will cost me
around $1300 delivered.
Does not do half-blind dovetails.

Time will tell if I've made a good decision or not : )

Diggerop

$1300 delivered? Gulp, from the guy that buys Festool. I wonder if a good
$350 jig would do 98% of what you want to do. I wonder if the attitional 2%
is worthe the extra $950.
Seriousely for the ability to cut wider joints, a 24" jig does not limit you
to 24" joints. You can easily cut joints on a 24' panel and on another
panel for the remainder of the distance needed, and glue the 2 pieces
together.
If you can see doing that, you might want to also consider a similar jig to
what you have chose but lots cheaper and apparently many more templades for
different designs.
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops...nt_system.html


More food for thought.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:25:28 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


Uh - oh the other shoe drops, but good to know. I have the Leigh D4 and
the finger joint template. After hearing all the recent reviews and
especially the comments made by charlieb I was beginning to think that the
Akeda might be easier to remember how to use. ;~) For me the Leigh works
fine and the finger joint template is a no brainer but I always find myself
refering back to the owners manual for a refreser on how to set the jig up.

I used a Leigh Super before and I would say they are pretty similar as
far as steps involved. I have a little note written on the board the
jig is attached to remind me which way the boards should be facing,
though I don't really need it anymore but that was the part I would
always freeze on if I hadn't used it in a while, for both jigs.

I would say the Akeda is faster to set up though because you don't
have to fuss with getting everything spaced evenly and the fingers all
locked properly and even. I find the 1/8" increments instead of the
infinite spacing to actually be a benefit even though most people who
haven't used the Akeda would list that as a con.

And it's definitely nice to be able to go back and make a replacement
part(s) if you screw something up later, whereas with the Leigh if
you've moved the guides you're pretty much going to have to replace
the entire assembly rather than one part.

Personally I thought the Akeda had too many loose pieces to keep up with but
then I recently built two towers with about 250 pieces. It can be done.

It's a nonissue, really. Sure there's a bunch of pieces but you never
use more than a few at the same time. You make a box with
compartments to keep them sorted in. Mine is cardboard and took under
10 minutes, but you can of course be fancy about it too. It's kind of
like saying a full set of drill bits is too much to keep up with

BUT as you pointed out and apparently Woodcraft no longer carries the Akeda,
key replacement parts need to be quickly available. something to consider.

In my case I can still get everything I need, I would just have to
source it out from a couple different places if I really needed it
right now. The common bits are all in stock at the jig store, I'm
just an oddball in that I'm almost always using it on thin stock where
it really is hands down the best jig on the market. There is
something to be said for having the industry standard model though.
But I have talked to Kevan of Akeda and there is something also to be
said for having the guy who invented the thing and runs the company be
the one who directly answers all your questions and problems.


-Kevin

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:25:28 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


If I ever decide to get a new jig, I will certainly consider the Akeda.

"Leon" wrote in message
...


$1300 delivered? Gulp, from the guy that buys Festool. I wonder if a
good $350 jig would do 98% of what you want to do. I wonder if the
attitional 2% is worthe the extra $950.
Seriousely for the ability to cut wider joints, a 24" jig does not limit
you to 24" joints. You can easily cut joints on a 24' panel and on
another panel for the remainder of the distance needed, and glue the 2
pieces together.
If you can see doing that, you might want to also consider a similar jig
to what you have chose but lots cheaper and apparently many more templades
for different designs.
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops...nt_system.html


More food for thought.



Thanks for the thought Leon. I did come across a discussion in another forum
on the MLCS system, - didn't seem to be much enthusiasm for it. There are a
few cheaper similar types in retail outlets locally, but anything I've
looked at didn't inspire me. It seems you get what you pay for at that end
of the market.
I'm confident that what I have in mind to buy, will suit my purpose and will
last for many years.

My problem in being from down under, is that I have to be absolutely certain
anything I buy from overseas is bulletproof. I would rather pay whatever is
necessary to secure something I have total confidence in. (I'd happily
import an Akeda or Leigh if they suited my purpose.) Anything produced
locally suffers from high manufacturing and transport costs and small
market. (Australia has only 22 million people.) So Australia at retail level
is expensive. However, it's not all bad .......

I balance the above with the fact I have been able to source a lot of my
tools and materials from auctions for next to nothing. e.g. sliding
compound mitre saw - $35. I have seven metal handplanes, old Stanleys
mostly, from No. 8 to No. 4 - average cost $40. I haven't bought wood for
years, - about 5 years ago I picked up several tons of 10" x 2" pine planks,
plus a ton of Jarrah boards, - cost about $300 for the lot. Still got about
one and a half tons to be broken down. My workbench cost me $100 to build
about 9 years ago - all salvage materials, including the vise. One of my
makita routers, still in the box, came with a router table thrown in - $80
the lot. ....... swings and roundabouts. : )

Diggerop

Leon wrote:


"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
romanf wrote:
Snip



That wasn't meant to blast the jig store but to warn people to make sure
that they know what could happen using their own cards. I have a bit of
an
issue since their website also gives a Wisconsin location, so I do feel
they have a bit of culpability there also in not being straight up about
business with them being a foreign exchange.

Agreed, and something to think about, I was under the impression that the
Akeda was American, US. Have they already sold out to a foreign
manufacturer?

Just to be clear, I think Akeda is Canadian, but they don't distribute
directly. Right now, there are two distributors. One is thejigstore.com,
a company that shows as Milwaukee on the Akeda site link, but an Illinois
address and Mauritius address on The Jig Store's site. The second is
toolking.com, located in Colorado. When I was looking for mine, I checked
with both companies. Toolking didn't have the C kit,something that was
essential for my purposes and it would have been 3 to 6 weeks before it
became available. The Jig Store had the C kit but with a couple pieces
missing. They were willing to ship the C kit with the missing pieces and
to drop ship the missing parts when they became available (I need to follow
up on that) and to sell the one cutter I needed individually (I will get
another with the missing jig kit parts). That was why I went with the Jig
Store.

Like I mentioned, I really, really like the Akeda jig and I'm not knocking
the service I received from the Jig Store. I am not pleased that the jig
store lists a US presence but banks off-shore. Had I known that, I would
have used Amex instead of Master Card.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

diggerop wrote:

snip

I have decided that for my main intended purpose, - (through dovetails on
large boards,) the maximum width capacity of the Akeda would be a limiting
factor. In all other respects, it would do all I required and more.

You've got access to, and can afford boards that are over 16" wide -
or
over 24" wide - and will be working with boards of these widths
regularly
in the future? If that's the case, the price of your stock will far
outweigh
the price of whatever dovetail jig you decide on.

If, on the other hand, you will glue up panels wider than 16" or 24",
made up of edge joined boards - you CAN cut the dovetails on the
boards BEFORE glue up. If you save a cut off from the first pieces
you can use them as spacers for doing the second boards and so
on.

I've decided on a "first generation" jig, primarily to accommodate wider and
longer boards. Similar to the one at this URL.

http://www.gifkins.com.au/

There are two earlier versions of this type of router table based
dovetail jig - the Katie Jig and the Keller Jig. All of them require
an Above the Cutter Guide Bearing - which makes the bits - the
consumables of routed dovetail and finger joint jigs - more
expensive.

These are the pro's and cons as I see them at this stage:

Pro: Can handle wider and longer boards than many systems. Gifkens gives
a standard width/length dimension of 1m x 300mm, but states that
this can be extended considerably with care.

Just for the non-metric folks 1m x 300 mm is about
39 3/8" by a bit over 11 3/4". I'm gonna guess that
they've got the length and width reversed and the
1m (39 3/8"I is the Length of the board. So the WIDTH
of the board jig capacity is under 12" - less than even
the 12" dovetail jigs out there in the U.S. market, most
of which are 16" and 24" width capacity.

Note the qualifier "can" in the "can be extended considerably with
care."
Also note the qualifier "with care". I'd want to know what I'd HAVE
TO DO
in order to meet the "can" and "with care" qualifiers.

I'd also be concerned with holding 12" or wider boards in this router
table and guides dovetail jig type. If the board being routed moves
- AT ALL - you're joint fit will suffer.

I believe one option would be to route with a hand-held for larger dimensions.

I have to ask. Are you intending to use this jig to cut dovetails
for the sides of TALL blanket chests? Why is width capacity
over 25" so important?

Can be used on a router table. (I have two, - can use one for
pins, one for tails.)

Regardless of which jig you use, having two routers is almost
essential since the two bits' depth of cut will determine how
well the dovetails fit. Once you get each bit set correctly
for the thickness of the stock you're working with (more about
THAT in a minute) - you DO NOT want to be swapping bits out.

No bushes or adaptors required on router. (Router bits have
bearings.)

Those are inexpensive relative to router bits with bearings
ABOVE the cutting edges. And the guides don't wear out
nearly as fast as router bits dull.


Excellent visibility.

The bit is following the guides - so seeing where the
bit is cutting doesn't make any difference.

Can do variable spaced dovetails (with spacer shims)

Not sure how the shimming works, but in general, having
to shim is a PITA - and more little things to keep track
of.

Simple device and intuitive setup and operation.

I'm certain you believe that NOW. Check back with us
AFTER you've used the jig - successfully.

Australian manufacturer. Spares should be easier to source.

THAT can be a significant point. Stuff shipped between
the US and Oz can involve a month or more - and shipping
costs ain't cheap either.

Templates have tail and pin on opposite sides. Once the tails
are indexed, the pins are automatically indexed as well.

I suspect that "automatically" is actually qualified -
probably
that "can" and "with care" implied if not stated.

Can do finger joints.

Don't know about the LEIGH, but the AKEDA will do through
and half blind dovetails AND finger/box joints.

Con: More expensive.
The Akeda would cost me almost $1000 landed here in
Australia. The Gifkens package with everything will cost me
around $1300 delivered.

From looking at the Gifkens, it's a much simpler jig so the
extra cost is a mystery to me.

Does not do half-blind dovetails.

If you're going to do drawers, half blinds are a must -
unless
you're going to add an overlayed front to the drawers,
which
kind of negates the value of dovetails.

Now about Set Up. The depth of cut of the two bits is the THICKNESS
of your parts - plus a smidge (it's better to cut the dovetails too
deep
and have some excess to take off on the ends of the pins and the
tails
- than to have them too shallow and have to plane down the faces of
the front and sides of the "box" (assuming it's a drawer. If it
isn't,
add planing down the face of the back as well).

The other concern I have with the Gifkin, after watching the video
is that the Show Face is always facing OUT. And that means you're
clamping against the Show Face. I'm not sure I'd cant to use a
C-clamp pressing on the show face of my box.

And speaking of clamping - how are you going to clamp a part
that's 24" wide - or wider? Wide boards tend to cup. Sure you
can clamp near the edges - but that won't be near as good as
clamping acrossed the entire width.

Time will tell if I've made a good decision or not : )

Take good notes - and report back after you've used the jig
for a couple of projects. And have fun!

charlie b

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
diggerop wrote:

snip


Charlie, thanks for once again sharing your thoughts, it's very much
appreciated.
I have answers to some of the points you raised, although in reality, it's
no more than conjecture on my part at this stage.

If, on the other hand, you will glue up panels wider than 16" or 24",
made up of edge joined boards - you CAN cut the dovetails on the
boards BEFORE glue up. If you save a cut off from the first pieces
you can use them as spacers for doing the second boards and so
on.

Certainly possible with any jig I would imagine. My personal preference has
always been to edge join, dress, then cut the joints. I'd like to continue
that where possible. My logic in doing that may not be unassailable, however
it is what I prefer.


There are two earlier versions of this type of router table based
dovetail jig - the Katie Jig and the Keller Jig. All of them require
an Above the Cutter Guide Bearing - which makes the bits - the
consumables of routed dovetail and finger joint jigs - more
expensive.

Not prohibitively so. I normally use CMT, which are similarly priced to
Gifkins. (Here at least, you may have a more competitive market in the U.S).
The difference is about $10 between bits that have bearings and those
without. (About the same price as an Akeda guide bush.) So, if I wear out
two bits per year, I'll be spending $20 more than I otherwise would. Not
going to lose sleep over that.



Note the qualifier "can" in the "can be extended considerably with
care."
Also note the qualifier "with care". I'd want to know what I'd HAVE
TO DO
in order to meet the "can" and "with care" qualifiers.

One method, - Attach the template to a wooden block, clamp the block to the
workpiece, route from the top. (As some other similar types do.)

I have to ask. Are you intending to use this jig to cut dovetails
for the sides of TALL blanket chests? Why is width capacity
over 25" so important?

One of the things I've long thought about doing, is building large a tool
chest to replace the one I have at present. I would like to use dovetails
for every joint. It's dimensions will be in the region of 80 x 50 x 40, -
(in inches.)
One of my considerations with any device, is can I make it do what I wish to
do, or am I constrained by that which the design allows me to do. I prefer
the former, where possible.

No bushes or adaptors required on router. (Router bits have
bearings.)

Those are inexpensive relative to router bits with bearings
ABOVE the cutting edges. And the guides don't wear out
nearly as fast as router bits dull.

True, but then the router bits dull at the same rate, bearing or not. I
would anticipate getting at least one sharpening before I replaced it. As
I said above, the difference in net cost to me, is minimal.


Can do variable spaced dovetails (with spacer shims)

Not sure how the shimming works, but in general, having
to shim is a PITA - and more little things to keep track
of.


Same principle as you suggested at the beginning of your post, - (using an
offcut to index.) Shims do the same thing, different combinations giving
various offsets.

Templates have tail and pin on opposite sides. Once the tails
are indexed, the pins are automatically indexed as well.

I suspect that "automatically" is actually qualified -
probably
that "can" and "with care" implied if not stated.

After studying the design, watching the video and reading a number of
reviews, I am confident that
the indexing will work exactly as stated. As with any cutting operation,
care certainly needs to be taken in setup and execution.

The Akeda would cost me almost $1000 landed here in
Australia. The Gifkens package with everything will cost me
around $1300 delivered.

From looking at the Gifkens, it's a much simpler jig so the
extra cost is a mystery to me.

Gifkens appears to me to be what I believe is referred to in your country as
a "Mom & Pop" operation. Relatively small operation, no economies of scale.
He has patented his device here and the US, which I imagine means he has
significant costs to defray on a relatively small turnover.I sincerely doubt
that he is becoming rich from selling these jigs, expensive as they are.
Perhaps he could do with a different business model and increase volume to
reduce costs, which may benefit customers, but on the other hand , may not
ultimately do much for his bottom line.
For me, the value in the Gifkens is in what I perceive it will do for me,
rather than the percieved dollar value of the jig materials and
construction.

Does not do half-blind dovetails.
If you're going to do drawers, half blinds are a must -
unless
you're going to add an overlayed front to the drawers,
which
kind of negates the value of dovetails.

Every drawer I've built, including remodelling the kitchen, has had a false
front. I don't feel that the inability of this jig to do half blinds will
concern me, whereas it might be a major concern for others.


The other concern I have with the Gifkin, after watching the video
is that the Show Face is always facing OUT. And that means you're
clamping against the Show Face. I'm not sure I'd cant to use a
C-clamp pressing on the show face of my box.

The Jig in the video has now been superseded by a new model, which is
functionally the same but is slightly more sophisticated overall.
He is now also supplying a pair of Bessey clamps which appear to have
relatively soft faces. If marking was to be a concern, I would use a thin
softwood scrap as a buffer, which is my normal practice when clamping
finished surfaces.


Time will tell if I've made a good decision or not : )

Take good notes - and report back after you've used the jig
for a couple of projects. And have fun!


I certainly will : )


Diggerop