Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool 21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables. I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight into
this.

Mike

nope, the table saw sits right in front of it (about 4 feet away). The
jointer is next to the table saw, and is probably the same distance from the
regular access door, but I would think that door provides more insulation.
Honestly, the garage is cold as hell and I doubt there's much variation
within the space. Even when I turn on the heater, you can detect clear
zones for some time until the heat has time to thoroughly do its job. The
bandsaw is actually right up against an outside wall, and I haven't seen a
lick of rust on that table the whole time I've owned it (and I only but a
coat of Topcote on it when I first tuned it up).

Mike


Mike

"MSgeek" wrote in message
...
Is the jointer closer to the uninsulated garage door?
"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
om...
Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I
have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I
live
in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of
a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls
are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights,
and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does
a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about
75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool
21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70
degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw
wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let
it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS
to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of
paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of
the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about
every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount
of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the
jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it
with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw
SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the
tables.
I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on
the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is
suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces
would
be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in
the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does
the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two
when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight
into
this.

Mike

Is the jointer closer to the uninsulated garage door?
"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
om...
Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I
have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live
in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls
are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool
21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw
wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let
it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of
paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of
the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about
every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount
of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables.
I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on
the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would
be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in
the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does
the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two
when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight
into
this.

Mike

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
om...
Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I
have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live
in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls
are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool
21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw
wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let
it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of
paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of
the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about
every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount
of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables.
I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on
the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would
be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in
the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does
the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two
when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight
into
this.

Mike

The only reason that I can think of why your jointer would be worse than the
other tools would be because the cast iron in the jointer is thicker than
the other tools and doesn't heat up at the same rate.

todd

"todd" wrote in message
...

The only reason that I can think of why your jointer would be worse than
the
other tools would be because the cast iron in the jointer is thicker than
the other tools and doesn't heat up at the same rate.

That's what I was thinking. The underside of the jointer table may not get
as much airflow either. The warmth from the heater may be driving moisture
into the air from all over the shop, and the jointer stays cold enough to
start
collecting it. A dehumidifier might be a good idea - start it up as soon as
the heater is turned on, and park it next to the jointer. -Wm

Mike in Mystic wrote:


Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity
of the rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on
just about every cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of
effort to remove it, even though the table saw and jointer had sat
idle about the same amount of time.
Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is
suffering the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer
surfaces would be so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is
the only reason condensation would preferentially occur there. Has
anyone else experienced this kind of thing?
Mike

I think it has more to do with the mass of the castings rather than just the
temperature. The jointer is probably taking longer to heat up. two weeks
ago I turned on the hat and went back to the house to let it warm up. When
I returned, the tablesawy had a coating of ice on top from the condensation.
At that point, I cleaned it up, turned off the heat, and read a book
instead of woodworking. Going from a minus zero to working comfort just is
not happening. I'm not trying tomorrow either. -4 expected tonight.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

When you burn hydrocarbons like propane, what do you get (ideally)? CO2
+ H2O. Unless you are using a vented heater, you are adding humidity.
This is condensed by a cold object in warm air. Advice (free) 1. Use a
vented heater or electric or steam heat. 2. Try to prevent those large
chunks of iron from getting so cold. Some have tried a light bulb near
the saw. I would prefer a small electric heater blowing on it. An old
electric blanket would probably work, but might not be safe unattended.

Mike in Mystic wrote:

Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool 21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables. I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight into
this.

Mike

--

Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA
............................................
My favourite mythical creature? The
honest politician.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Gerald Ross wrote:
2. Try to
prevent those large chunks of iron from getting so cold. Some have
tried a light bulb near the saw. I would prefer a small electric
heater blowing on it. An old electric blanket would probably work,
but might not be safe unattended.

Good advice but not very practical for most of us. The cost of heating a
detached garage for the 6 days and 18 hours that I don't use it in a week
would buy me some nice wood to work on in milder weather. When the
temperature gets to -12 like it did a couple of weeks ago, that light bulb
is not going to help much. .

Electric heat means adding new service to the garage, maybe to the house for
the extra load. Steam heat means keeping the temperature above freezing all
the time and is expensive to install.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Mike in Mystic wrote:

condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced this kind of thing?

You already know about thick castings and increased humidity and stuff. Now
think about a fan. I've had a cheap box fan running 24/7 in my shop,
moving the air around, since last fall. High humidity, low humidity, high
temperatures (up to 120 F inside the shop) and low (down somewhere below
10) I haven't had anything rust except for stuff that's been kept out of
the moving airstream.

Granted, I don't have any big iron in my shop, but I'm still impressed with
the efficacy of this inexpensive prophylactic. I used to have to wax
*everything* frequently. Every chisel, every screwdriver, every saw
blade... Rust was a severe problem.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

I agree with , Ed, although thanks for the suggestions Gerald.

I just can't afford to install much more for heat than what I'm using - a
simple job site (non-vented, as you surmised) propane heater. I understand
about the source of the condensation, I just didn't expect there to be such
a difference in how the different cast iron surfaces in the shop behaved in
that environment.

I haven't seen ice yet, Ed, and my goal is to get about 5 or 6 hours of shop
time in today, but maybe I'm being too optimistic. I never thought I'd say
this, but I'd rather have 2 feet of snow than this cold f&&king temperature.
I don't physically mind it, but interfering with shop time makes me
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Mike

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
Gerald Ross wrote:
2. Try to
prevent those large chunks of iron from getting so cold. Some have
tried a light bulb near the saw. I would prefer a small electric
heater blowing on it. An old electric blanket would probably work,
but might not be safe unattended.

Good advice but not very practical for most of us. The cost of heating a
detached garage for the 6 days and 18 hours that I don't use it in a week
would buy me some nice wood to work on in milder weather. When the
temperature gets to -12 like it did a couple of weeks ago, that light bulb
is not going to help much. .

Electric heat means adding new service to the garage, maybe to the house
for
the extra load. Steam heat means keeping the temperature above freezing
all
the time and is expensive to install.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

I would try that as well. Maybe run it full time.
Tony D.

A dehumidifier might be a good idea - start it up as soon as
the heater is turned on, and park it next to the jointer. -Wm

Mike in Mystic notes:

I haven't seen ice yet, Ed, and my goal is to get about 5 or 6 hours of shop
time in today, but maybe I'm being too optimistic. I never thought I'd say
this, but I'd rather have 2 feet of snow than this cold f&&king temperature.
I don't physically mind it, but interfering with shop time makes me
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

You might want to try a small dehumidifier, running it for a few hours during
heating and after...then shut it down and empty it until the next time.

Charlie Self
"Character is much easier kept than recovered." Thomas Paine

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Mike,.

I was having the same problem - to the point where I would clean and wax
them and a few days later it would warm up and rust would form.

It happened one day and I noticed I corner of hardbard was over the TS - I
moved it and there was no rust under it - the rest of the TS top had rust
all over it.
So I tried a little experiment - I cleaned both my jointer and TS - I took a
peice of HB cut it to the lenght of one of the jointer beds. About a week
later - it got down to about 25 then warmed to about 60 the next day.
Again - the TS and jointer were showing signs of rust (despite the wax i did
the otherday) - I moved the HB and it was still sparking clean. Now I have
3 peices of HB - 1 to fit onthe TS and 2 for the jointer. All marked - DO
NOT USE OR THROW AWAY.

Been using this for about 2 months now w/ great success. I just have to
remember that when im done for the day - to put them back on!

Good luck

-Rob


"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
om...
Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I
have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live
in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls
are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool
21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw
wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let
it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of
paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of
the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about
every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount
of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables.
I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on
the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would
be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in
the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does
the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two
when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight
into
this.

Mike

I'm glad somebody else had this problem.. I thought I was going nuts. Why
only the jointer and not the other tools? BTW, I read the same article and
in it they claim Empire's Topsaver was the best rust removal and second best
preventative. I got some, used it to clean up the badly rusted used jointer
I had purchased after sanding the excess rust away. It worked so well I
sprayed what little I had left on the TS, small bottle...doesn't go far, and
with little effort it removed the stains with ease. 8 days later with high
humidity nary a sign of rust. I might mention I did apply wax afterwards.
Good stuff...

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 03:39:30 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
wrote:

Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

snip
Mike

1. Water is the most common catalyst of rust.
2. Rust requires oxygen.
2. Moisture moves away from warmer temperatures and toward cooler
temperatures.

You can use these facts to protect your equipment. Keep your shop as
dry as possible. Keep your iron surfaces protected with some kind of
coating. Place a 4 watt lightbulb inside or under your cast iron
tables, just enough heat to make the temperature higher than the
surrounding area. Burning kerosene, propane, wood, or combustion of
any kind in the shop produces moisture--Infrared lamps or electric
heat is better at keeping your shop dry.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 06:14:24 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

Gerald Ross wrote:
2. Try to
prevent those large chunks of iron from getting so cold. Some have
tried a light bulb near the saw. I would prefer a small electric
heater blowing on it. An old electric blanket would probably work,
but might not be safe unattended.

Good advice but not very practical for most of us. The cost of heating a
detached garage for the 6 days and 18 hours that I don't use it in a week
would buy me some nice wood to work on in milder weather. When the
temperature gets to -12 like it did a couple of weeks ago, that light bulb
is not going to help much. .

Even a 4 watt bulb will heat the iron to a slightly higher temperature
than the garage itself. It doesn't matter if the temperature is 80 or
minus 10. All you want is a slightly higher temperature on the
rust-prone area to chase away the moisture.

Electric heat means adding new service to the garage, maybe to the house for
the extra load. Steam heat means keeping the temperature above freezing all
the time and is expensive to install.

I fI had a garage shop, I'd spend the money on lots of insulation and
caulking. I know its tough to seal a garage door, but it can be done.

A classmate of mine told me that soaking small rusted items (drill,
mortising bits) in coca cola for about 2 weeks will break the rust free. I
haven't tried it yet. I did acquire about $1,500 worth of tools for $200
last summer from a former workmate who was liquidating his father's old
tools. Many of the small drill bits and metal parts of the larger tools had
rust. We tried navel jelly with no success. Some parts are too small use
steel wool. any suggestions?




"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Mike in Mystic wrote:

condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced this kind of thing?

You already know about thick castings and increased humidity and stuff.
Now
think about a fan. I've had a cheap box fan running 24/7 in my shop,
moving the air around, since last fall. High humidity, low humidity, high
temperatures (up to 120 F inside the shop) and low (down somewhere below
10) I haven't had anything rust except for stuff that's been kept out of
the moving airstream.

Granted, I don't have any big iron in my shop, but I'm still impressed
with
the efficacy of this inexpensive prophylactic. I used to have to wax
*everything* frequently. Every chisel, every screwdriver, every saw
blade... Rust was a severe problem.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Silvan" wrote in message
Mike in Mystic wrote:

You already know about thick castings and increased humidity and stuff.
Now
think about a fan.

A fan might not be the sole solution in every climate, but it can be a big
part of the solution in many. It's just too simple, and cheap, a solution
for most folks to take seriously ... until they try it.

Other than the occasional coat of Topcote, a fan running 24/7 is the only
rust prevention solution I need. I've been in this particular shop, in a
high humidity, rapid change in temperature climate, for over two years. Fan,
mounted high on one wall and blowing across shop, runs 24/7, NO rust on any
tool surface whatsoever.

Just cleaned rust off the tools, for the third time, in a shop for a lady
friend who no longer has a husband. She has the shop and tools rented out,
but the lessee has yet to take possession. The shop is less than two miles
from mine (and drier overall because mine gets water in around the edges
when it rains heavily), and her cast iron surfaces rust constantly ...
difference between her shop and mine: NO fan.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/23/04

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message .com...
I agree with , Ed, although thanks for the suggestions Gerald.

I just can't afford to install much more for heat than what I'm using - a
simple job site (non-vented, as you surmised) propane heater. I understand
about the source of the condensation, I just didn't expect there to be such
a difference in how the different cast iron surfaces in the shop behaved in
that environment.

The propane burner requires about 10 cuft air for each 1000 btu
generated. Each 10 cuft of air burned generates about 1.6 cuft of
water vapor. That's a LOT of water.

To prevent moisture buildup in the room you must get rid of the water
generated by providing an easy exit for it; the exhaust gases from the
burner should go out a stack & not directly into the room.

Also try spraying a thin coating of a non-wetting agent like a
silicone onto the cold cast iron surfaces. That will slow down the
condensation of the water.

Wilson wrote:
A classmate of mine told me that soaking small rusted items (drill,
mortising bits) in coca cola for about 2 weeks will break the rust
free. I haven't tried it yet. I did acquire about $1,500 worth of
tools for $200 last summer from a former workmate who was liquidating
his father's old tools. Many of the small drill bits and metal parts
of the larger tools had rust. We tried navel jelly with no success.
Some parts are too small use steel wool. any suggestions?


Sure, try the Coke on the small parts. It is acid and will break down the
rust.

Wood magazine just had an article about rust removal and prevention. Worth a
peek. --
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

dave martin wrote:

The propane burner requires about 10 cuft air for each 1000 btu
generated. Each 10 cuft of air burned generates about 1.6 cuft of
water vapor. That's a LOT of water.

How much water is in the water vapor? I'm not doubing the statistics, but
you are saying that 10 cu. ft of air reduces to 16% of vapor by volume.
What else is included here in the 1.6 cubic feet? That means that the
original atmosphere contain 16 percent vapor, but that must be reduced to a
given amount of liquid. How do we calculate the liquid content?

--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

In article ,
says...
Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount of
time.

I guess I must be extremely lucky - I'm doing something right. I've got
a small shop in an unheated outbuilding and I live where the humidity is
low in summer and high in winter. So the tools sit unused for a lot of
the winter in a cold and damp shop.

The only time I've seen rust on either the jointer or the tablesaw was
right after I bought them. And, to be truthful, the time I set a bunch
of green wood on the tablesaw for 24 hours or more :-).

When I first saw the rust shortly after purchase, I started waxing the
tops with Johnsons Floor Wax. I do it two or three times a year. It
works, and I suspect any similar wax would also work.

If you use your cast iron tools every day, you might have to wax more
often. I'm not sure about that, as I suspect the wax gets down into the
pores of the cast iron and resists rubbing off. So that's just a guess.

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

You may want to warm up the shop SLOWER next time, the cast iron is
heating up slower than the air and the temp difference is causign the
condensation.

As to why it is being seen the most on the jointer is a puzzle

John

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 03:39:30 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
wrote:

Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool 21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables. I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight into
this.

Mike

Mike,

Tom Watson had an interesting post on this not too long ago, wherein
he reported on using shellac as a coating that was more effective than
all the standard ones at preventing rust. Have a look at it at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...com%26rnum%3D1

Sorry for the long link. If you have trouble with it, just look up an
advanced GS using the delimiters: recent date/rec.woodworking/subject:
shellac/author: tom watson.

Regards,
H.

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message . com...
Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool 21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables. I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else experienced
this kind of thing?

I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight into
this.

Mike

"Anthony Diodati" wrote in message ...
I would try that as well. Maybe run it full time.
Tony D.

A dehumidifier might be a good idea - start it up as soon as
the heater is turned on, and park it next to the jointer. -Wm

A dehumidifier will also help to heat the garage, just as much as
any electric resistance heater with the same power consumption.
(Probably not much compared to that propane heater.)

--

FF

I read somewhere that when propanes burns it increases the amopunt of
water vapor by 4X (four times). That seems to be true because the
amount of humidity jumps when I run propane in my shop.

On 25 Jan 2004 13:11:32 -0800, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

"Anthony Diodati" wrote in message ...
I would try that as well. Maybe run it full time.
Tony D.

A dehumidifier might be a good idea - start it up as soon as
the heater is turned on, and park it next to the jointer. -Wm

A dehumidifier will also help to heat the garage, just as much as
any electric resistance heater with the same power consumption.
(Probably not much compared to that propane heater.)

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 03:39:30 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
wrote:


Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables. I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else experienced
this kind of thing?


I've been trying to beat the rust problem for years and finally feel
like I have it under control. Here's a few of the things I think I've
learned.

Atmospheric Moisture is a byproduct of combustion. The RH of the shop
air may not change that much as you run the heater, because the
increasingly warm air can handle the increasing amount of moisture
generated by the combustion process, but the absolute moisture content
is driven way up.

The RH of the shop air is not the problem. It is the RH of the
microclimate right next to the cast iron surfaces that is the problem.
The cast iron, having a great deal of thermal mass, cannot react to
temperature changes fast enough and stays cold enough so that, with
the temperature/humidity level rising quickly in the shop's air - the
cast winds up being below the dew point - and rust begins to form.

The jointer, having greater thermal mass than the other machinery, due
to the thickness of the castings, shows the rust first.

The solution that I finally came to was to put my kero fired
salamander on a timed thermostat. The thermostat is a plug in style
from Grainger and the timer is one of those cheap things that you can
use to turn lights on and off with.

I set the timer to turn the heater on to about fifty degrees for an
hour or so before I go out to the shop. This allows the shop to warm
up more gradually and thus avoid the air becoming too warm/moist too
quickly. I had to fool around with where to put the thermostat in
relation to where the hot air shot out of the salamander. If you put
it entirely out of the warm air stream it will call for heat for too
long and the air will heat too quickly. It's better to have the
thermostat close enough to the air stream that the heater cycles on
and off more than you would want for normal operation. When you come
into the shop in the morning you can move the thermostat to a more
normal position.

The other thing that I found out about rust is that wax doesn't work
in my shop and neither does TopCote. Boeshield will work if applied
heavy and left to dry without wiping but the result is too waxy for a
daily use tool.

A few months ago I decided to try dewaxed shellac. It works better
than anything I've ever tried. It goes on fast. There's no concern
about introducing bad stuff onto the wood surface. It's cheap. It's
easy to reapply. It provides a slick surface. . .(and it makes the
tools look great).

Good luck.

(tom - rustless at last)



Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

In article ,
Mike in Mystic wrote:
Hi again,

Well, I just posted about my pleasant table saw tuning experience, so I have
to offset that with a bit of a frustration.

Before I tuned the saw, I cleaned the surface of some light rust. I live in
CT and this winter has been VERY cold. My shop is in a dedicated bay of a
two-car garage, but there's a stud wall separating the two bays (a door
gives access between them). The "shop" is about 6 feet wider and deeper
than a "typical" garage bay, which puts it at about 16'x24'. The walls are
all insulated, but there are two fairly large windows, two sky lights, and
the garage door isn't insulated.

I heat the shop with an 80,000 BTU propane heater, which generally does a
pretty good job. A few weeks ago when the outside temperature was about
35-40 deg. F, I was able to get the shop from about 40 degrees to about 75
degrees in maybe 20-30 minutes. Today, the shop was at a nice and cool 21.5
degrees F and it took a LOT longer (about 1.5 hours) to get to 70 degrees.

Now to the rust question, the light rust that I found on my table saw wasn't
too big a deal. I just sprayed the surface liberally with WD-40 and let it
sit for maybe 10 minutes, then used a green scotch brite pad and my ROS to
buff it off. Then I sprayed it with some Topcote and a good layer of paste
wax.

Last week I had to do the same thing to my jointer (the 6" Delta
professional). The only thing different was the amount and severity of the
rust. The jointer had some pretty thick rust and it was on just about every
cast iron surface on the tool. It took me a LOT of effort to remove it,
even though the table saw and jointer had sat idle about the same amount of
time.

Tonight, when I started to work on the tablesaw and as the garage/shop
heated up (using a 80,000 BTU propane heater), I noticed that the jointer
surfaces already had signs of light rust again (pretty faint, but still
there, and after only about a week since I cleaned it, and coated it with
Topcote (no wax on the jointer)). As the room became warmer, I saw SEVERE
condensation on the jointer. It was literally puddling up on the tables. I
was mystified. I checked the tablesaw surfaces - no condensation. I
checked the bandsaw table - nothing. I even looked at a few of my
handplanes, etc. and no sign of condensation - it was just happening on the
jointer.

Does this make any sense?? It sure explains why the jointer is suffering
the most from rust, but I don't really get why the jointer surfaces would be
so much colder than the rest of the tools, which is the only reason
condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else experienced
this kind of thing?

The reason you get the 'preferential condensation' is that the jointer isn't
warming up _as_fast_ as the other stuff.

This can occur for several reasons:

1) mass of the metal, relative to exposed areas.
The more mass, per unit of 'exposed area', the _slower_ it warms up.
The larger the temperature differential, the more condensation. (all
else being equal)

2) _location_ in the space,
a) poor air circulation around it, means slower warming.
b) absent something to 'keep the air stirred up', temperatures are not
likely to be uniform throughout the space.

3) The heater is a non-trivial source of humidity. *anything* that burns
hydrocarbons is such a source. The reason:
C(many)H(some) + {many+some/4}O(2) = {many}CO(2) + {some/2}H(2)O

Propane is "C(3)H(8)", thus you get 4 cu. ft. of water vapor for every
cu. ft. of propane you burn. Or about 35 fl. oz of water, per pound of
propane.

4) Humidity _will_ migrate into colder air, faster than heat does.
The 'why' is involved. but the result is that the colder spots tend
to have higher relative humidity, which contributes to the condensation.


I read the interesting review of rust removal and preventative agents in the
latest Wood magazine and I have some Boeshield on order. I hope it does the
trick, because I don't want to have to deal with this every week or two when
I need to use the jointer.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but hopefully someone has some insight into
this.

Mike

In article ,
Wilson wrote:
A classmate of mine told me that soaking small rusted items (drill,
mortising bits) in coca cola for about 2 weeks will break the rust free.

The active component in Coca Cola, or any other "cola" flavor for that
matter, is _phosphoric_acid_. The operative word is "acid" -- it =will=
'eat things'.

I
haven't tried it yet. I did acquire about $1,500 worth of tools for $200
last summer from a former workmate who was liquidating his father's old
tools. Many of the small drill bits and metal parts of the larger tools had
rust. We tried navel jelly with no success. Some parts are too small use
steel wool. any suggestions?

Navel jelly is *bad*news*(tm) for tools/tooling.

For iron parts, electrolysis is the best method. it _restores_ the iron
surface.




"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Mike in Mystic wrote:

condensation would preferentially occur there. Has anyone else
experienced this kind of thing?

You already know about thick castings and increased humidity and stuff.
Now
think about a fan. I've had a cheap box fan running 24/7 in my shop,
moving the air around, since last fall. High humidity, low humidity, high
temperatures (up to 120 F inside the shop) and low (down somewhere below
10) I haven't had anything rust except for stuff that's been kept out of
the moving airstream.

Granted, I don't have any big iron in my shop, but I'm still impressed
with
the efficacy of this inexpensive prophylactic. I used to have to wax
*everything* frequently. Every chisel, every screwdriver, every saw
blade... Rust was a severe problem.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

In article ,
Lawrence A. Ramsey wrote:
I read somewhere that when propanes burns it increases the amopunt of
water vapor by 4X (four times). That seems to be true because the
amount of humidity jumps when I run propane in my shop.

It's all in how you measure things --

One cu.ft. of propane, when burned, creates approximately 4 cu.ft. of water
vapor.

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of water
(in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.


On 25 Jan 2004 13:11:32 -0800, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

"Anthony Diodati" wrote in message
...
I would try that as well. Maybe run it full time.
Tony D.

A dehumidifier might be a good idea - start it up as soon as
the heater is turned on, and park it next to the jointer. -Wm

A dehumidifier will also help to heat the garage, just as much as
any electric resistance heater with the same power consumption.
(Probably not much compared to that propane heater.)

In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
dave martin wrote:

The propane burner requires about 10 cuft air for each 1000 btu
generated. Each 10 cuft of air burned generates about 1.6 cuft of
water vapor. That's a LOT of water.

How much water is in the water vapor? I'm not doubing the statistics, but
you are saying that 10 cu. ft of air reduces to 16% of vapor by volume.
What else is included here in the 1.6 cubic feet? That means that the
original atmosphere contain 16 percent vapor, but that must be reduced to a
given amount of liquid. How do we calculate the liquid content?

The answer to your last question is "absolute humidity". the math gets
somewhat messy. Google for a write-up.

Air consists partly of oxygen. the oxygen is the only part that is
involved in combustion.

The amount of oxygen in 10 cu. ft. of air will combine with a 'fuel' to
"make" about 1.6 cu. ft. of water vapor.

If you want to go through the actual numbers --
You start with the percentage of 'air' that is oxygen. the oxygen
molecule ("O2") has a molecular weight of 32 (roughly). thus 22.4 liters
of O2 will weight 32 grams.

Propane (C3H8, molecular weight 32) provides the hydrogen.

1 C3H8 + 5 O2 = 3 CO2 + 4 H20 + {heat}

CO2 weighs in at 40, and H20 at 18

In gaseous form (at standard temperature and pressure), 22.4 liters of
-anything- weighs, in grams, what the molecular weight of an individual
molecule is.

Have fun with the math. grin

One lb of propane, when burned, generates about 2-1/4 lbs of water. or about
35 fl. oz.

A dehumidifier will add MORE heat than a electric resistance heater
with the same power consumption.

It's obvious that all watts consumed by the dehumidifier will stay in
the garage as heat. What is not so obvious is that when water vapor
condenses into a liquid it gives up heat (just the opposite of what
happens when it evaporates). There is also the heat pump effect of
removing heat energy from the cold condensate if it is piped down
a drain.

Art

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message

A dehumidifier will also help to heat the garage, just as much as
any electric resistance heater with the same power consumption.

Robert Bonomi wrote:
It's all in how you measure things --

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of
water (in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.

How does this happen? You mean that propane (or any other fuel) can create
more mass that what is was before being burned? If this is true, why don't
we ship propane to drought stricken regions and burn it to make water?
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Hi Ed,

The oxygen in the water isn't coming from the propane, it's coming from the
air. 2 of the mass units in water are from propane, but 16 (the oxygen) are
from air. If you work it out stochiometrically it makes sense.

I'm starting to wonder if it would be cheaper to get a highly insulated
garage door, and maybe put R-30 in the walls and get rid of the windows in
the garage. I've had to de-rust my jointer the last 3 times i used it.
Today I could almost literally watch the rust form on it. From the time I
went it until I left (about 3 hours) the rust probably doubled in quantity -
from a light coating, to a pretty moderate to large amount.

I think i'm going to try Tom's dewaxed shellac idea. It's the cheapest and
most direct. I don't have any idea how I'd rig up the thermostat/timer
thing. The problem being, I usually only get out there on weekends, and
lately only 3-4 hours at a time.

Oh well, I guess this is life.

Mike

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. com...
Robert Bonomi wrote:
It's all in how you measure things --

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of
water (in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.

How does this happen? You mean that propane (or any other fuel) can
create
more mass that what is was before being burned? If this is true, why
don't
we ship propane to drought stricken regions and burn it to make water?
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Mike in Mystic wrote:
Hi Ed,

The oxygen in the water isn't coming from the propane, it's coming
from the air. 2 of the mass units in water are from propane, but 16
(the oxygen) are from air. If you work it out stochiometrically it
makes sense.
Mike

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. com...
Robert Bonomi wrote:
It's all in how you measure things --

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of
water (in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.

OK, but Robert says it "creates" water in vapor form. If it is in the air,
it is vapor and does not have to be created. Raising the temperature changes
the relative humidity and the dew point and thus the condensation. If there
is water in the propane it can be released to the air in the form of vapor.
Or a chemcial reaction can change one physical item to another, such as milk
into cheese. I just don't know of any mass that can be changed to another
form and make a greater mass though.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:
It's all in how you measure things --

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of
water (in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.

How does this happen? You mean that propane (or any other fuel) can create
more mass that what is was before being burned? If this is true, why don't
we ship propane to drought stricken regions and burn it to make water?

to burn 1 pound of propane, takes _5_ pounds of Oxygen in the air.

From which, you get approximately 2-1/4 pounds of water, and 2-3/4 pounds
of carbon-dioxide.

In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Mike in Mystic wrote:
Hi Ed,

The oxygen in the water isn't coming from the propane, it's coming
from the air. 2 of the mass units in water are from propane, but 16
(the oxygen) are from air. If you work it out stochiometrically it
makes sense.
Mike

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. com...
Robert Bonomi wrote:
It's all in how you measure things --

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of
water (in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.

OK, but Robert says it "creates" water in vapor form. If it is in the air,
it is vapor and does not have to be created. Raising the temperature changes
the relative humidity and the dew point and thus the condensation. If there
is water in the propane it can be released to the air in the form of vapor.
Or a chemcial reaction can change one physical item to another, such as milk
into cheese. I just don't know of any mass that can be changed to another
form and make a greater mass though.

Robert knows _generally_ knows what he's talking about.

I'm sure of that -- he's me. grin

In this case, I _do_ have the theory right, but was giving propane credit for
being about 30% lighter than it actually is -- correct figures below.


This is "Basic Chemistry". What's going on is the 'chemical reaction' you
alluded to.

"Created" _is_ the correct term.

Propane *doesn't* burn "all by itself".

One has to have oxygen present as well. Whether there is _any_ water vapor
present in the 'air' is _irrelevant_. OXYGEN, on the other hand, is critical.

The chemical reaction:

(1) C3H8 + (5) O2 = (3) CO2 + (4) H2O(gas) + (1996.04 BTU/mole){heat}
or
"one molecule of propane, together with five molecules of oxygen produces
three molecules of carbon-dioxide and four molecules of water and liberates
'1996.04/(6.022*10^23) BTU' heat in the process"
{ Note: 1.552 oz (44 grams) by weight, of propane when burned completely,
gives off approx 1996.04 BTUs of heat -- an additional 4752 BTUs can be
liberated if all the created water vapor is reduced to liquid.)


Due to the differing atomic weights, things work out (by *mass*) as:

1-3/8 lb propane + 5 lb oxygen = 4-1/8 lb CO2 + 2-1/4 lb water

As should be obvious,this is "6-3/8 lbs in" and "6-3/8 lbs out".

Mass *is* preserved; you just have to account for _everything_ in the reaction.


Of the 2-1/4 lbs of water 'created', only 1/4 lb of that total weight comes
from components of the propane. The other 2 lbs comes from the oxygen in
the air. The remaining 1-1/8 lb of the weight of the propane, in conjunction
with 3 lbs of oxygen in the air, turns into 4-1/8 lbs of carbon-dioxide.

Regardless of however much water vapor _was_ in the air before you lit the
fire, after burning 1-3/8 pounds of propane, there is an *additional* 2-1/4
lbs of water "somewhere", either in the air as water vapor, or having
'condensed out' on something. (like the tables of a cold jointer




A final note: "This material _will_ be on the exam on Friday!"

"OOPS", says I.

In article rs.com,
Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:
It's all in how you measure things --

One lb of propane, when burned, creates approximately 2-1/4 lbs of
water (in vapor form, of course.) This is roughly 35 fl.oz.

How does this happen? You mean that propane (or any other fuel) can create
more mass that what is was before being burned? If this is true, why don't
we ship propane to drought stricken regions and burn it to make water?

to burn 1 pound of propane, takes _5_ pounds of Oxygen in the air.

That's actually 1-3/8 pounds of propane. not one pound. I was using the
wrong weight for propane.


From which, you get approximately 2-1/4 pounds of water, and 2-3/4 pounds
of carbon-dioxide.

Correction: 3-1/8 lbs of carbon-dioxide.

In article 0CZQb.121066$nt4.532531@attbi_s51,
Wood Butcher wrote:
A dehumidifier will add MORE heat than a electric resistance heater
with the same power consumption.

It's obvious that all watts consumed by the dehumidifier will stay in
the garage as heat. What is not so obvious is that when water vapor
condenses into a liquid it gives up heat (just the opposite of what
happens when it evaporates).

Yawp. *lots* of heat.

Approximately 970 BTUs _per_pound_ of water condensed. That's enough
heat to raise the temperature of 10 lbs of water by nearly 100 F.

Or, 8,200 BTUs per gallon of condensate.

For the metric crowd, 540 calories per gram. Enough to raise 10 grams
of water by 54 C.

There is also the heat pump effect of
removing heat energy from the cold condensate if it is piped down
a drain.

The effect of this is _trivial_ in comparison to the condensation.

If the water is at 20F below 'room temperature', that's a whopping
TWENTY BTUs per pound of water that goes down the drain. About 1/5
of 1% of the energy released by condensation. Hardly worth mentioning.


Art

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message

A dehumidifier will also help to heat the garage, just as much as
any electric resistance heater with the same power consumption.

In article rs.com,
Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
dave martin wrote:

The propane burner requires about 10 cuft air for each 1000 btu
generated. Each 10 cuft of air burned generates about 1.6 cuft of
water vapor. That's a LOT of water.

How much water is in the water vapor? I'm not doubing the statistics, but
you are saying that 10 cu. ft of air reduces to 16% of vapor by volume.
What else is included here in the 1.6 cubic feet? That means that the
original atmosphere contain 16 percent vapor, but that must be reduced to a
given amount of liquid. How do we calculate the liquid content?

The answer to your last question is "absolute humidity". the math gets
somewhat messy. Google for a write-up.

Air consists partly of oxygen. the oxygen is the only part that is
involved in combustion.

The amount of oxygen in 10 cu. ft. of air will combine with a 'fuel' to
"make" about 1.6 cu. ft. of water vapor.

If you want to go through the actual numbers --
You start with the percentage of 'air' that is oxygen. the oxygen
molecule ("O2") has a molecular weight of 32 (roughly). thus 22.4 liters
of O2 will weight 32 grams.

Propane (C3H8, molecular weight 32) provides the hydrogen.

OOPS! propane is actually molecular weight 44


1 C3H8 + 5 O2 = 3 CO2 + 4 H20 + {heat}

CO2 weighs in at 40, and H20 at 18

In gaseous form (at standard temperature and pressure), 22.4 liters of
-anything- weighs, in grams, what the molecular weight of an individual
molecule is.

Have fun with the math. grin

One lb of propane, when burned, generates about 2-1/4 lbs of water. or about
35 fl. oz.


With the above-mentioned correction, that's 1-3/8 lbs of propane.