"Upscale" wrote

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Very ****y. I pay for that right. And ****y does not equal
unreasonable.

I guess that all depends on whether you're the ****er or the ****ee.

Well, technically speaking, Robatoy would be both!

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Upscale" wrote

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Very ****y. I pay for that right. And ****y does not equal
unreasonable.

I guess that all depends on whether you're the ****er or the ****ee.

Well, technically speaking, Robatoy would be both!

That "Depends" ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 26, 5:55*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Upscale" wrote

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Very ****y. I pay for that right. And ****y does not equal
unreasonable.

I guess that all depends on whether you're the ****er or the ****ee.

Well, technically speaking, Robatoy would be both!

I'd rather be ****ed off than ****ed on.

On Dec 26, 6:12*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message

...



"Upscale" wrote

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Very ****y. I pay for that right. And ****y does not equal
unreasonable.

I guess that all depends on whether you're the ****er or the ****ee.

Well, technically speaking, Robatoy would be both!

That "Depends" ...


On what?

Last time I cleaned my shop, I couldn't find a darn thing. :-)


Cleaning (verb): (a) Removing the dust from something, such as your short
term memory. (b) Hiding things from yourself. (c) The act of moving things
in order to destroy one's short to medium term memories of item location.

See also: Organization

Puckdropper


Excellent.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 26, 6:12 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message

...



"Upscale" wrote

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Very ****y. I pay for that right. And ****y does not equal
unreasonable.

I guess that all depends on whether you're the ****er or the ****ee.

Well, technically speaking, Robatoy would be both!

That "Depends" ...


On what?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As in Depends Adult Diapers.

On Dec 26, 5:51*pm, wrote:
On Dec 26, 3:54 pm, Robatoy wrote:

When I pick up a screw from the floor, it goes into the garbage....
NOT back into the screw box. My guys are instructed in no uncertain
term to do the same.

I measure them against one from the bin before putting them back.

I do the same thing, sort of. My screw bins have a little measuring
gauge on the front edge of each of them. I file a little notch on one
end, into which the edge of the head slips, and then there is a line
at the end that shows how long the screw should be for that particular
bin. I've also got a "Random Screw" bin that I'll use if length isn't
vital, and which will occasionally get cleaned out and reorganized if
I'm feeling ambitious and not particularly concerned about how much
time is (or isn't!) worth.

JP

Am I the only one who reuses screws?
Not for important stuff, but certain for jigs and other insignificant stuff.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Not only the normal stuff in Imperial but in metric is starting for me -
as I scrap out old stuff...

I have a lot of custom designed nuts and bolts and rods collected over
60 years or so myself and some from Dad.

I had a nice stack of army trunks (three Air force!) and hated to move and
pickup some being heavy.

So those are now stacked 3 high 3 wide and back to back (doubling a side)
with them on their sides - lids open outwards. Lids keep dust out...

I have added blocks that spread the weight and downwards. Handy storage now.

I have 3 33 drawer file cabinets that each drawer holds a ream of paper. One
legal. One is sorted well. The other two need time.


A local hardwood store had a 5 foot tall stack of bins - across the back -
if I had known - it was penny on several dollars sale when they went out.

Rats!

Martin

B A R R Y wrote:
Upscale wrote:
"Nova" wrote in message
I've just spent four hours putting away and organizing the top of my
workbench. I can now use the bench. I'm going to have to come up with
a better storage system as I've run out of room to put thing.

My most enduring problem is the myriad of nuts, bolts and screws that
hide
in little pill bottles all over the place.

I gotta' admit...

I gave a bunch of that stuff away. What nobody wanted got recycled.

-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?
Not for important stuff, but certain for jigs and other
insignificant
stuff.

Depends on the screws. Machine screws that aren't buggered up yes.
But I've spun the heads off of enough good quality screws on the
second use to not want the hassle--it's not the putting them in that's
the issue, it's getting the thing apart later.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?

I often toss them during cleanup, unless the bin is already out.

It also depends on the quantity. Just a few go into the metal recycling
bin. A decent number is worth putting back.

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote

I have 3 33 drawer file cabinets that each drawer holds a ream of paper.
One legal. One is sorted well. The other two need time.

I've taken to keeping all my routers (6), corded drills (3) and circle saws
(2) in a large two drawer legal sized filing cabinet I've set on a shop made
wooden, mobile base with those big neoprene casters. Metal, sturdy, easily
locked, it's really come in handy the last two moves. Also keeps the easily
stolen tools out of view from the occasional visitor from the construction
business, many of whom are less than savory characters.

You can see it, tucked out of the way under the wall bench, just behind the
clamp rack:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/TempShop3.jpg

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?

Just not worth it, especially when you buy fastners by the full box.

Lew

Swingman wrote:
clamp rack:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/TempShop3.jpg



Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's clamps.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Am I the only one who reuses screws?

Just not worth it, especially when you buy fastners by the full box.

Lew


I hear you.

I have a bunch of those little gray hanging containers from HF. I guy
the 24 pack, just about every time it's on sale for 6 bucks. I've
gotten into the habit of pulling a few for any project/process and
having them there for misc pieces/parts. I always have a half dozen or
so at the top of the rack, just for used fasteners. Whenever I'm
throwing something together, I always scan those bins first, before
moving to the new ones.

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote:

I hear you.

I have a bunch of those little gray hanging containers from HF. I
guy the 24 pack, just about every time it's on sale for 6 bucks.
I've gotten into the habit of pulling a few for any project/process
and having them there for misc pieces/parts. I always have a half
dozen or so at the top of the rack, just for used fasteners.
Whenever I'm throwing something together, I always scan those bins
first, before moving to the new ones.

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by re-using
old screws, and that doesn't include the space required for storage or
the time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin


Lew

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by re-using
old screws, and that doesn't include the space required for storage or
the time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin


Lew


Guilty as charged!
You're right. I'm dumping then, next time I'm out there.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by re-using old
screws, and that doesn't include the space required for storage or the
time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find what I
need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the hardware store ...
and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the middle of doing something in
the shop than to stop and make an unplanned trip to the hardware store.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote:

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find
what I need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the
hardware store ... and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the
middle of doing something in the shop than to stop and make an
unplanned trip to the hardware store.

Understand; however, does that old saying that goes something like,
"Your lack of planning is not my problem", come to mind?grin

Seriously, have been in once of those "Ah ****" moments a few times,
but have found that standardizing on a few faatners and then making
sure they are in stock gooes a long way.

I sometimes find myself working in metal, fiberglass, and/or wood, a
lot of it for a boat.

As a result, have standardized on stainless seel. coarse thread, self
tapping, sheet metal screws in both pan head and flat head.

Purchasing standard box quantities keeps costs in line.

Stock 3/4", 1-1/4", 1-1/2" and 2" lengths.

Surprising how few times I don't find something thast works for the
job at hand.

YMMV

And yes, also have a mason jar full of odd ball left overs, just in
casegrin, but NO steel..

Lew

Swingman wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by re-using old
screws, and that doesn't include the space required for storage or the
time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find what I
need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the hardware store ...
and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the middle of doing something in
the shop than to stop and make an unplanned trip to the hardware store.


I've built entire things out of the bucket 'o crap.

Stop it, though, you're turning me back to the dark side. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
Swingman wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by re-using old
screws, and that doesn't include the space required for storage or the
time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find what
I need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the hardware store
... and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the middle of doing
something in the shop than to stop and make an unplanned trip to the
hardware store.


I've built entire things out of the bucket 'o crap.

Stop it, though, you're turning me back to the dark side. :-)

About once every 20 years I chunk the GB'oC and start over. When I moved the
shop back in October I took the opportunity to chunk the old and start
growing the new ... it's not bucket size yet, only Glad, throwaway plastic
container size, but it's growing.

... and the unplanned trips to the hardware store are getting noticeable
fewer as the "Buy 10 to get 4, Rule of Hardware Purchase" kicks in.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I've built entire things out of the bucket 'o crap.

The thing about the bucket of crap is that it's usally crap.

A few years back I standardized in square drive. By comparrison the recyled
pile (oh yes I have one ) is, yes, crap. Not to sound like an advertisement
but it's true. Given the choice of a (even pre-used) Mc Feeley's
square-drive screw and a "lord knows what phillips/slotted"... I'll take the
screw from the proper inventory.

I have been riduculed by my dad for my crappy "spares" collection..... but
I got him using square-drive too :-).

I guess that I fall into the "keep a decent inventory of qaulity fasteners
and the problem becomes moot" camp.

-Steve

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:09:41 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by re-using old
screws, and that doesn't include the space required for storage or the
time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find what I
need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the hardware store ...
and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the middle of doing something in
the shop than to stop and make an unplanned trip to the hardware store.

At 7 miles one way to the hardware store and a vehicle that gets about
15 MPG it amounts to one gallon of gas to run to the HW store. Add
that price to the two screws that are all I need and they end up
costing about 2 buck each. I'm pretty brutal about tossing any
fastener that looks even slightly corroded or otherwise munged, but my
random collection of total crap has frequently saved a trip and often
saved a project because I'm working on it at 11:00 PM and the store
doesn't open for another 7 hours.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

C & S wrote:


I've built entire things out of the bucket 'o crap.

The thing about the bucket of crap is that it's usally crap.


Growing up, we had a couple of buckets o' crap. You are absolutely
correct, those buckets had exactly two sizes when you were looking for a
bolt to fix some piece of machinery: too big and too small. When I look
back at all the afternoons spent sifting through the BofC and PofC (pan of
crap), the money saved in time wasted by having had a good inventory of
fasteners on hand would have been significant.


A few years back I standardized in square drive. By comparrison the
recyled
pile (oh yes I have one ) is, yes, crap. Not to sound like an
advertisement
but it's true. Given the choice of a (even pre-used) Mc Feeley's
square-drive screw and a "lord knows what phillips/slotted"... I'll take
the screw from the proper inventory.

I have been riduculed by my dad for my crappy "spares" collection.....
but I got him using square-drive too :-).

I guess that I fall into the "keep a decent inventory of qaulity fasteners
and the problem becomes moot" camp.

-Steve

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

-MIKE- wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by
re-using old screws, and that doesn't include the space required
for storage or the time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find
what I need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the
hardware store ... and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the
middle of doing something in the shop than to stop and make an
unplanned trip to the hardware store.


I've built entire things out of the bucket 'o crap.

Stop it, though, you're turning me back to the dark side. :-)

My problem is that I can't _find_ the golden bucket 'o crap. I know
it's here somewhere, in the golden shelves 'o crap or the golden attic
'o crap or the golden garage 'o crap or the golden SUV 'o crap. Oh,
and the golden pile 'o crap behind the garage.

I GOTTA dump some 'o crap.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

B A R R Y wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?

I often toss them during cleanup, unless the bin is already out.

It also depends on the quantity.

....and the quality. I have about a gallon each of assorted
aircraft-grade bolts, nuts, and washers in the shop that my neighbors
occasionally pick through.

I generally buy fasteners in 500 or 1000 quantities and dump the boxes
(and the box label) into big rectangular plastic jars (Parmesan cheese
containers from Sams) and carry the whole container to where I'm
working. If I take out a handful they go into the jar lid, and leftovers
get dumped back when I finish.

Screws I didn't buy go into the trash can.

After fighting the Allen wrench battle for too many years, I bought
T-handled wrench sets with bright yellow handles (marked with the size),
which seems to help.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

I still have the GBoC. Haven't quite worked up to Dad's GBoC (Golden Barrel
of Crap). His started during the depression when materials were a lot more
expensive that labor.

I understand the rational of tossing GBoC, but its such an instilled
habit that I can't break it.

On the other hand, I did finally break one of Dads other habits:
straightening and re-using bent nails. Took a while, though.

--
Frank Stutzman

On 12/27/08 5:13 PMDec 27, "J. Clarke" wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by
re-using old screws, and that doesn't include the space required
for storage or the time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find
what I need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the
hardware store ... and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the
middle of doing something in the shop than to stop and make an
unplanned trip to the hardware store.



My problem is that I can't _find_ the golden bucket 'o crap. I know
it's here somewhere, in the golden shelves 'o crap or the golden attic
'o crap or the golden garage 'o crap or the golden SUV 'o crap. Oh,
and the golden pile 'o crap behind the garage.

My problem is which golden bucket of crap? I grew up on a farm, which meant
a long trip if we needed something that wasn't at hand and a STRONG
propensity to improvise and make do.

But I have come to realize that for me today, sorting through the
miscellaneous crap is just not worth it. If I have some extra parts that are
standardize sizes, I through them into the appropriate bin. But it is a few
left over pieces parts, I keep them for a few days just to make sure I
didn't forget something and then discard.

"Frank Stutzman" wrote:

On the other hand, I did finally break one of Dads other habits:
straightening and re-using bent nails. Took a while, though.

Can tell you stories about Bernie and the electrical conduit he would
clean, straighten then reuse.

He also carried a tattoo on his left arm.

Truly an amazing guy.

Lew

"Frank Stutzman" wrote

On the other hand, I did finally break one of Dads other habits:
straightening and re-using bent nails. Took a while, though.

BTDT ... you might want to teach your next generation, if you have one, that
skill/trick, it looks like they may need it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:38:41 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Frank Stutzman" wrote

On the other hand, I did finally break one of Dads other habits:
straightening and re-using bent nails. Took a while, though.

BTDT ... you might want to teach your next generation, if you have one, that
skill/trick, it looks like they may need it.


When I was a kid and we were into building "Forts" I remember gazing
at the nail bins full of virgin 16d commons with something approaching
lust.

We only had benders for our use.

I think that's why it ****ed me off so much in later years when I
would run the magnetic broom over the jobsite and find POUNDS of
wasted nails from the framing crews.


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?

Just not worth it, especially when you buy fastners by the full box.

At 4 cents to 10 cents a piece for just zinc plated steel, I have a
difficult time just throwing them away when nothing at all is wrong with
them. It depends what you took them out of, of course.

"MikeWhy" wrote:

At 4 cents to 10 cents a piece for just zinc plated steel, I have a
difficult time just throwing them away when nothing at all is wrong
with them. It depends what you took them out of, of course.

Buy in full box quantities and then check your pricing.

Lew

I'd put them in a scrap box. Then the crew can take them home.
It keeps some handy for them who can sort it in their time.

One of the electricians here does that - old this and that goes into
a trunk. From time to time he goes in and finds an antique whatnot
that saves a customer in a tight. A certain part of his life is
helping others.



Martin

Lew Hodgett wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?

Just not worth it, especially when you buy fastners by the full box.

Lew

Bob Haar wrote:

On 12/27/08 5:13 PMDec 27, "J. Clarke" wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote

My money says you spend more on containers than you save by
re-using old screws, and that doesn't include the space required
for storage or the time spent trying to reclaim them.

Does the term "pack rat" or "I might need that someday" come to
mind?grin

Tom Watson's "Golden Bucket of Crap", in which I can generally find
what I need in a pinch, has saved many an unplanned trip to the
hardware store ... and there is NOTHING more aggravating in the
middle of doing something in the shop than to stop and make an
unplanned trip to the hardware store.



My problem is that I can't _find_ the golden bucket 'o crap. I know
it's here somewhere, in the golden shelves 'o crap or the golden attic
'o crap or the golden garage 'o crap or the golden SUV 'o crap. Oh,
and the golden pile 'o crap behind the garage.

My problem is which golden bucket of crap? I grew up on a farm, which
meant a long trip if we needed something that wasn't at hand and a STRONG
propensity to improvise and make do.


Yep, that's why we had one. I'm guessing it had bolts from the 1920's
and '30s as well. Problem was, by the time you found something that sort
of worked, you could have made the trip to town and back with the right
thing. OTOH, growing up being raised by depression-era parents made a
definite impression on me. It just feels *wrong* to throw anything out.
The only exception I've found for that was, after discovering McFeeley's
screws, throwing away the big-box store screws (brand new) that would break
even when being driven into a pilot hole and/or cam-out so bad you couldn't
use them. I've never been more happy throwing something away.

But I have come to realize that for me today, sorting through the
miscellaneous crap is just not worth it. If I have some extra parts that
are standardize sizes, I through them into the appropriate bin. But it is
a few left over pieces parts, I keep them for a few days just to make sure
I didn't forget something and then discard.

Same here. One of the redeeming graces to throwing that stuff away is
that it is usually such cheap, poorly made crap, I wouldn't trust it for
any kind of mission critical application other that it's original intended
use (and sometimes that's questionable)


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Robatoy" wrote
On Dec 27, 5:27 pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

-MIKE- wrote:
Am I the only one who reuses screws?

I often toss them during cleanup, unless the bin is already out.

It also depends on the quantity.

...and the quality. I have about a gallon each of assorted
aircraft-grade bolts, nuts, and washers in the shop that my neighbors
occasionally pick through.

I generally buy fasteners in 500 or 1000 quantities and dump the boxes
(and the box label) into big rectangular plastic jars (Parmesan cheese
containers from Sams) and carry the whole container to where I'm
working. If I take out a handful they go into the jar lid, and leftovers
get dumped back when I finish.

Screws I didn't buy go into the trash can.

After fighting the Allen wrench battle for too many years, I bought
T-handled wrench sets with bright yellow handles (marked with the size),
which seems to help.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Yup. Ditto on the screws. and ditto on the t-handled allen keys, Both
metric and SAE.
A few that I used often are duplicated in other places. A couple are
extra long with ball ends.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to put together dumbells for commercial gyms many years ago. The
allen wrench provided for the dumbells were chap junk that twisted and died
in short order. Iused to buy the most expensive allen wrenches I could find
at an industrial tool supply house.

I then had a handle welded onto them and had them hardened at a blacksmith.
That with some locktite did the trick. Modern dumbell design has moved
beyound the allen head screw.

Morris Dovey wrote:

....and the quality. I have about a gallon each of assorted
aircraft-grade bolts, nuts, and washers in the shop that my neighbors
occasionally pick through.

I hear that!

For non-critical, common-sense uses, there are rumors of an
"FAA-Approved Hardware and Bulb Department" at Home Depot and Acme Auto.

Lee Michaels wrote:

I used to put together dumbells for commercial gyms many years ago. The
allen wrench provided for the dumbells were chap junk that twisted and died
in short order. Iused to buy the most expensive allen wrenches I could find
at an industrial tool supply house.


From my r/c racing days, I have a set of smaller sizes ground from
hardened drill blanks. It's amazing how bad a typical allen wrench can
be...

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ditto on the t-handled allen keys, Both metric and SAE.
A couple are extra long with ball ends.

A couple of questions about them. Of what use are the ball ends? Seems to me
a ball end would be less grab of the screw. Are some of the hex slot bottoms
not flat necessitating ball ends? Or perhaps, a ball end enables use of a
allen key on an angle in tight places?

A number of the allen keys I've used twist and sometimes strip. Maybe the
ones I've bought are cheap. I've been considering some of the t-handled
allen keys which are longer and in the event of a strip, I could just cut
that part off and have a new fresh tip.

Upscale wrote:
Or perhaps, a ball end enables use of a
allen key on an angle in tight places?

Right! Once the screw bottoms, you'd switch to a standard version.
Ball end allens are for spinning, not tightening, and save lots of
effort repositioning the tool.