Chip Buchholtz wrote:
Bill wrote:

Thank you for your reply Pat. Barry's explanation explained how
subtle things could go wrong. I definitely did not realize how many
factors came into play. I may have to get by with my smoothing
plane for a while...

You can joint an edge using a router in a router table, or a table
saw.

http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/2005/01/28/wb/

http://www.newwoodworker.com/tsjointjig.html

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/rtrplnr.htm

As far as I know you can't joint (flatten) a face without a jointer.
I think I understand why you can't flatten a face on a planer, but
I
don't understand why they don't make planers that can also flatten a
face.

Actually you can flatten a face with a planer, you just need to
support the stock on a sled that is stiff enough to keep it from
flexing and that doesn't let it flatten out.

And they do make planers that can also joint--the trouble is that they
need to have beds as long as any other jointer in order to do it
effectively, and to do it full width they need to have beds like
jointers of that width and that means a big, heavy, expensive tool.

There's more than one solution to any problem, but the purpose-made
tool is usually the most convenient.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"ROYNEU" wrote in message
...

Hi Andy,

If you buy your wood finished 2 sides and straight lined you will
probably not need a planer or jointer to soon. As soon as need to edge
glue boards you really need a jointer.

Actually if you have a straight piece of plywood to use as a reference you
can straighten rough cut boards on a TS plenty good enough for glueing the
edges.
I typically don't use the jointer at all as I find that for larger boards
the jointer is overwhelmed. I can much more easily flatten a 10" wide and
8' long board with a jig and my stationary planer and much more quickly and
easily straighten boards edges with the TS and my jig.

Snip


The other part of this is when you start doing this stuff for money
the more of the money you keep for yourself the better off you will
be. If you are paying the mill to do most of the work it may or may
not be financially benefitting.

IMHO and my experience with probably 85% of my work being for pay I find
that buying S4S is more expensive but not as expensive as my time.
Basically I would rather pay the mill and extra $200 than spend the day
millng rough cut or S2S myself. If I do the milling it costs me between
$200 and $320 per day. If I am building something for myself I am more
likely to do the milling myself.

I am not being contrary to prove you wrong, just adding another point of
view. Your view is certainly valid.

Leon wrote:

: "Chip Buchholtz" wrote in message

: As far as I know you can't joint (flatten) a face without a jointer.
: I think I understand why you can't flatten a face on a planer, but I
: don't understand why they don't make planers that can also flatten a
: face.

: With the proper jig, you absolutely can flatten a face with a planer.

Thanks, Leon.

So I just make a flat, stiff, and parallel surface, attach the wood to
be flattened to one side, and use shims so that the rollers don't flex
the wood as it goes through. Then send that through the planer and
the face opposite the jig becomes flat and parallel to the jig.

Do I have it right?

What's a good way to fasten the work to the jig? Double sided tape?

Thanks again,

--- Chip

"Chip Buchholtz" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Leon.

So I just make a flat, stiff, and parallel surface, attach the wood to
be flattened to one side, and use shims so that the rollers don't flex
the wood as it goes through. Then send that through the planer and
the face opposite the jig becomes flat and parallel to the jig.

Do I have it right?

You are very close Chip.


What's a good way to fasten the work to the jig? Double sided tape?

Actually if you attach anti-slip sand paper to the wedges the wood stays in
place very well without being fastened down.

IIRC FWW had an article with plans on building that jig and I built one
myself. I can probably did up the plans in .pdf if you would like a copy.
I would be glad to e-mail you a copy.
I was able to flatten rough cut 4/4 oak 8-13" wide and 8' long with the jig
and my stationary planer. That would be pretty tough to do with most any
jointer unless you start getting into the 12" and larger jointers.

Keep in mind that the boards need to pretty straight and flat to be able to
joint a board that wide and long and have at leas 3/4 left when you are
done. If the board have much bow or warp you would be better off ripping
with a BS and or shortening the board to begin with to minimize the bow or
warp.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:43:29 -0500, Andy H wrote:

Hi Larry,
What did it cost you to build this air cleaner? Ive been looking at
building one of them for some time. Where do you get the squirrel cage
blower?

Not much. The box was made from some plywood I already had. I got the
squirrel cage blower from American Science and Surplus but I can't
remember the cost - something under $20 is my best guess. I use one
ordinary fiberglass furnace filter (16x20) backed up with an allergy
filter. When they get dirty I vacuum them. Every 3 or 4 years I replace
them.

But I don't get out in the shop as much as some, and I don't run the air
cleaner when using hand tools. Maybe 4-6 hours a week.

Leon wrote:

: IIRC FWW had an article with plans on building that jig and I built one
: myself. I can probably did up the plans in .pdf if you would like a copy.

Thanks, but I'm mostly just curious and saving up ideas for later. I
don't have an immediate need. I'm thinking that I'll buy a planer
before a jointer, when I have an immediate need.

: I was able to flatten rough cut 4/4 oak 8-13" wide and 8' long with the jig
: and my stationary planer. That would be pretty tough to do with most any
: jointer unless you start getting into the 12" and larger jointers.

: Keep in mind that the boards need to pretty straight and flat to be able to
: joint a board that wide and long and have at leas 3/4 left when you are
: done. If the board have much bow or warp you would be better off ripping
: with a BS and or shortening the board to begin with to minimize the bow or
: warp.

Great info - thanks!

--- Chip

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:43:29 -0500, Andy H wrote:

Hi Larry,
What did it cost you to build this air cleaner? Ive been looking at
building one of them for some time. Where do you get the squirrel cage
blower?

Not much. The box was made from some plywood I already had. I got the
squirrel cage blower from American Science and Surplus but I can't
remember the cost - something under $20 is my best guess. I use one
ordinary fiberglass furnace filter (16x20) backed up with an allergy
filter. When they get dirty I vacuum them. Every 3 or 4 years I replace
them.

But I don't get out in the shop as much as some, and I don't run the air
cleaner when using hand tools. Maybe 4-6 hours a week.

WOW, $20! I need to go shopping
thanks Larry!

--
:: Clever Sig here ::

ROYNEU wrote:
Hi Andy,

If you buy your wood finished 2 sides and straight lined you will
probably not need a planer or jointer to soon.

Snip

Roy
Thanks Roy,
Maybe I forgot to mention that my dad has a stockpile of rough black
walnut boards that has been drying for 50+ years. All I have to do is
make one cool thing and I can get the rest. The planer might pay for it
self just doing that alone.
I hope that the Forrest blade and a jig will help me joint these
boards. Thats my plan. I placed the order last night for the Dewalt
Planer, Forrest WWII, Triton Router, Kreg Pocket Rocket, and the PC 3
nailer kit. Im more than a little excited! Its gonna be an early
Christmas for me!

BadAndy
--
:: Clever Sig here ::

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:10:33 -0500, Andy H
wrote:

ROYNEU wrote:
Hi Andy,

If you buy your wood finished 2 sides and straight lined you will
probably not need a planer or jointer to soon.

Snip

Roy
Thanks Roy,
Maybe I forgot to mention that my dad has a stockpile of rough black
walnut boards that has been drying for 50+ years. All I have to do is
make one cool thing and I can get the rest. The planer might pay for it
self just doing that alone.
I hope that the Forrest blade and a jig will help me joint these
boards. Thats my plan. I placed the order last night for the Dewalt
Planer, Forrest WWII, Triton Router, Kreg Pocket Rocket, and the PC 3
nailer kit. Im more than a little excited! Its gonna be an early
Christmas for me!

BadAndy

I'm sure the boards dried 48+ years ago. Walnut dust is known to be a
hazard--buy a dust mask that has a good seal and a DC will be a wise
health investment.

Phisherman wrote:


I'm sure the boards dried 48+ years ago. Walnut dust is known to be a
hazard--buy a dust mask that has a good seal and a DC will be a wise
health investment.

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know Ill
have a huge mess with the planer. I do the best I can with a shop vac.
I have a couple paper masks, Ill probably get a respirator when I start
doing the planing.

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple days
for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Do I have to worry about this with wood this old?

thanks!
Andy
--
:: Clever Sig here ::

Andy H wrote:
Phisherman wrote:


I'm sure the boards dried 48+ years ago. Walnut dust is known to
be
a hazard--buy a dust mask that has a good seal and a DC will be a
wise health investment.

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know
Ill have a huge mess with the planer. I do the best I can with a
shop vac. I have a couple paper masks, Ill probably get a respirator
when I start doing the planing.

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple
days for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Do I have to worry about this with wood this old?

If you're taking about the same amount off each side and just enough
to clean it up then I wouldn't worry about it. If you're taking a
heavy cut on one side to reduce the thickness significantly then yeah,
it's a good idea to let it rest for a bit after planing--the moisture
content doesn't react instantly to humidity changes, so there will
likely be a gradient across the thickness. Not much of one but enough
to possibly cause a little bit of cupping.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Andy H" wrote

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know Ill
have a huge mess with the planer. I do the best I can with a shop vac.
I have a couple paper masks,

Planer's don't usually make lots of "dust", they make more chip sized
particles, so unless you have health/alergy problems already, the paper
masks will most likely be fine, and a respirator overkill.

No shop vac I know of will keep up with most planers with a medium cut, but
if you make light cuts you can certainly keep the cleanup time down with
one.

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple days
for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Exact opposite, IME.

Do I have to worry about this with wood this old?

I always make at least one planing pass on both sides ... different strokes.

Fact: freshly planed wood really needs to be stored where the air
circulation is the same on both sides, otherwise you will likely wake up to
bowed wood the next morning.

While it is not necessary to "stack and sticker", some do so.

What I do ( and what most hardwood lumber yards do with "SxS" stock) is to
store the freshly planed boards on end, as vertically upright as possible,
with a support point (in the shop, a shelf edge, cabinet top etc.) about mid
way or higher, so that air can circulate to both sides while its waiting to
be used.

Then again, not all wood, even of the same species, will act the same way
(mainly due to the way it was cut from the log, or from internal stresses
when growing that are released when cut).

No matter the precautions, it's always a crap shoot, and why you should
always order at least 20% more project stock than you need, or more.

YMMV ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple days
for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Exact opposite, IME.


The opposite actually makes more sense to me too. If you are only
revealing the "fresh" cells on one face then they could expand more than
the non planed face making an expensive potato chip.

That sound right?

thanks for your input.
Andy

--
:: Clever Sig here ::

J. Clarke wrote:
Andy H wrote:
Phisherman wrote:

I'm sure the boards dried 48+ years ago. Walnut dust is known to
be
a hazard--buy a dust mask that has a good seal and a DC will be a
wise health investment.
Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know
Ill have a huge mess with the planer. I do the best I can with a
shop vac. I have a couple paper masks, Ill probably get a respirator
when I start doing the planing.

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple
days for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Do I have to worry about this with wood this old?

If you're taking about the same amount off each side and just enough
to clean it up then I wouldn't worry about it. If you're taking a
heavy cut on one side to reduce the thickness significantly then yeah,
it's a good idea to let it rest for a bit after planing--the moisture
content doesn't react instantly to humidity changes, so there will
likely be a gradient across the thickness. Not much of one but enough
to possibly cause a little bit of cupping.

Even on 50+ year old wood? I dont have a meter but its pretty dry. Its
was cut about an inch thick I suppose. Now its closer to 3/4.

Andy

--
:: Clever Sig here ::

"Andy H" wrote in message
...
Swingman wrote:

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple days
for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Exact opposite, IME.


The opposite actually makes more sense to me too. If you are only
revealing the "fresh" cells on one face then they could expand more than
the non planed face making an expensive potato chip.

That sound right?

Actually, and IME, the newly planed cells eventually contract due to
drying/loss of moisture, causing that side of the board to become concave.

As far as the "plane one side only, let it rest before doing the other"
theory:

_Most_ of the time a planer is used in conjunction with a jointer, one
surface is "jointed" flat, and then the opposite surface is planed parallel
to the jointed surface and for thickness ...

.... therefore, the operations usually following one another, that sorta
blows the "let it rest between planing sides" theory completely out of the
water.

Just my tuppence ... I do what I do because it works for me in my shop
environment, and in my climate. YMMV

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , badandy001@gmaildotcom wrote:
Phisherman wrote:


I'm sure the boards dried 48+ years ago. Walnut dust is known to be a
hazard--buy a dust mask that has a good seal and a DC will be a wise
health investment.

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know Ill
have a huge mess with the planer.

Yes, you will. IMO, you should re-think that plan.

I do the best I can with a shop vac.
I have a couple paper masks, Ill probably get a respirator when I start
doing the planing.

Planers don't make too much dust (so a respirator isn't all that important),
but they sure make a lot of chips, and they'll go *everywhere*. If you're
planning to collect them as they're produced, with a hose connected to the
shop vac, I think you'll be disappointed in the results, as the planer will
produce shavings at a rate probably too fast for the shop vac to keep up. And
if you're planning to just sweep up afterward... I think you'll be
disappointed in the results there, too.

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple days
for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

That's incorrect. You want to remove approximately the same amount from each
side at the same time, so that each side of the board has approximately the
same moisture content.

Do I have to worry about this with wood this old?

Not if you do it the right way (same amount off each side, at the same time).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know Ill
have a huge mess with the planer.

Yes, you will. IMO, you should re-think that plan.


Well, Once SWMBO sees the huge mess, maybe then I can justify a Dust
collector. I love it when a plan comes together!

Without the planer I couldnt really justify a DC, So I bought the planer!
Genius!

Andy
--
:: Clever Sig here ::

On Dec 5, 10:39 am, Andy H wrote:
Phisherman wrote:

I'm sure the boards dried 48+ years ago. Walnut dust is known to be a
hazard--buy a dust mask that has a good seal and a DC will be a wise
health investment.

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know Ill
have a huge mess with the planer. I do the best I can with a shop vac.
I have a couple paper masks, Ill probably get a respirator when I start
doing the planing.

Ive always heard to on plane one side of a board and wait a couple days
for it to acclimate before doing the other side.

Do I have to worry about this with wood this old?

thanks!
Andy
--
:: Clever Sig here ::

Andy,

The Dewalt 735 has a blower in the chip chute and it will fire them a
long distance. You may want to get at least a 4" hose and direct into
a trash can. The blower is so strong that it inflates my dust
collector bags to the point of looking like it is on.

Dave

In article , badandy001@gmaildotcom wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Well, I elected to forego the Dust Collector for the moment. I know Ill
have a huge mess with the planer.

Yes, you will. IMO, you should re-think that plan.


Well, Once SWMBO sees the huge mess, maybe then I can justify a Dust
collector. I love it when a plan comes together!

Without the planer I couldnt really justify a DC, So I bought the planer!
Genius!

Ahh, I see you're a step ahead of me. Sounds like a good plan.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

DLB wrote:


Andy,

The Dewalt 735 has a blower in the chip chute and it will fire them a
long distance. You may want to get at least a 4" hose and direct into
a trash can. The blower is so strong that it inflates my dust
collector bags to the point of looking like it is on.

Dave

I purchased the 734. I dont think it has the fancy blower, but I dont
know. Sounds cool though!

Andy
--
:: Clever Sig here ::

On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:09:13 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Renata" wrote in message
.. .

Have you tried the Freud Glue-Line blade?

No, no need to.

Except half the $.

Renata



Renata

I purchased the 734. I dont think it has the fancy blower, but I dont
know. Sounds cool though!

Andy

I bought the Dewalt 733 a few years ago. I think the only difference
between it and the 734 is that the 734 uses three blades and mine only
has two. But having said that, I have tried using my shop vac with my
733 and it is a complete waste of time on boards wider than about shop
vac hose width (2 1/4"). The shroud that comes with the machine has the
4" fitting and I had to get a reducer to the shop vac. That reducer
clogs in about 3 seconds (or less) and then the chips all go . . .where
ever the hell they want. Now I have the additional task of cleaning out
the the reducer too.

Wayne

NoOne N Particular wrote:


I purchased the 734. I dont think it has the fancy blower, but I dont
know. Sounds cool though!

Andy

I bought the Dewalt 733 a few years ago. I think the only difference
between it and the 734 is that the 734 uses three blades and mine only
has two. But having said that, I have tried using my shop vac with my
733 and it is a complete waste of time on boards wider than about shop
vac hose width (2 1/4"). The shroud that comes with the machine has the
4" fitting and I had to get a reducer to the shop vac. That reducer
clogs in about 3 seconds (or less) and then the chips all go . . .where
ever the hell they want. Now I have the additional task of cleaning out
the the reducer too.

Wayne
So your saying dont bother with the shop vac? Just sweep up afterwards.
Ill be squirreling away pennies for my DC.

Thanks

Andy

--
:: Clever Sig here ::

"Andy H" wrote:

So your saying dont bother with the shop vac? Just sweep up
afterwards.
Ill be squirreling away pennies for my DC.

A push broom, a flat blade shovel, and a couple of 30 gal garbage cans
takes care of my 733 very nicely.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Andy H" wrote:

So your saying dont bother with the shop vac? Just sweep up
afterwards.
Ill be squirreling away pennies for my DC.

A push broom, a flat blade shovel, and a couple of 30 gal garbage cans
takes care of my 733 very nicely.

Lew


In my experience, if I am planing boards wider that about 2 1/2" in
width then yes, the shop vac is a COMPLETE waste of time. However, I
have found that a garage-blower-outter (aka leaf blower) does a fine and
quick job of removing the shavings from my garage. :-) (Or a foxtail,
push broom, large dust pan, and 30 gal garbage can does just fine too.)

Wayne

Mon, Dec 3, 2007, 12:17pm (Andy*H)
snip i dont have a jointer or planer but I dont have much need for
them at this moment. snip

You'd be surprised.



JOAT
Even Popeye didn't eat his spinach until he had to.

Im open to other suggestions. Help me spend my money!

BadAndy

ONE OF EACH!!

Andy H wrote:
Hi Gang,
Heres some background. I work in my garage(SHOP!!) and I have a
nice 50" Jet TS and an old Dewalt RAS and crappy ryobi router.
Lately I have had delusions of grandeur, thinking about doing some
more serious side work. I have a commission to do 7 small carts and
another to do an entertainment center. These are from the same client.
I am in a position to invest in the shop a bit and I can justify
about $5-$600. Im thinking of getting a 2hp Dust collector (Shop Fox),
a Triton 2-1/4 HP Router, and a forrest WWII blade.



I would put a good router at the top of the list followed by the dust
collector. In my shop the most used tools in order are roughly:

Dust collector (because I use it with everything)
Table saw
Router
Drill press
Band saw
Jointer
Planer

Forrest blades are indeed terrific, but there are some other excellent
saw blades which are slightly less costly.

Honestly I wouldn't want to do much woodworking without a pretty full
complement of equipment. I don't put many hours on the jointer and
planer, but I wouldn't want to try and work without flat and squared
stock. I've never seen store bought "S4S" stock which is actually flat
and square.

John

I have a small shop in my garage and I use a shop vac for my dust
collection and have adapters to hook up to different tools.I have two
routers,one for hand use and a more powerful one for the router table.I
like a router that has a soft start feature and variable speed control
and both bases for the one I use by hand.The more you use routers the
more uses you will find they can do.Buy or make your router table but
your fence needs multiple ajustments which are not available on all
products for sale.Use a dust collector on your fence,and make a small
cabinet for your table and you can put a dust port on it as well.Routers
produce a lot of dust but this method greatly reduces the mess.