(Warning - large rambling post ahead)

One day after watching one too many DIY shows, I decided to get into
woodworking. I built a shop, bought some tools, and can now honestly say
I've experienced the joy of router tear-out. I haven't been at it for
very long, long enough to know you can never have too many clamps, but
not long enough to actually build my own clamp rack. That's going to
take _at least_ two more months.

I have a table saw and a router, plus a variety of portable power tools
(jig saw, sanders etc.). On my list of things to get were a biscuit
joiner and a drill press. The biscuit joiner seems like it would be
really helpful when building furniture - bookcases, cabinets, clamp
racks etc. It would certainly cut down on filling nail- and screw holes.
The drill press would be used for making mortises, among other things.

So I Google for "absolutely the best biscuit joiner for cheap" and
"complete comprehensive review of all biscuit joiners ever made" and
read all 12,235 returned documents. Porter-Cable, DeWalt, all the usual
suspects are there. Emotional arguments about whether PC's Face Frame
biscuits is more important than the DeWalt easy adjustment.

Hours pass.

I then come across this thing called a Domino. It's a bird! It's a
plane! It's....well, green. And expensive. It's a Bijolotemo (biscuit
joiner loose tenon mortiser)!

Ooohhh....shiny.

I was intrigued by a comment in one of the reviews. I didn't bookmark
it, but it basically said "Don't let this tool fall into the hands of
novices, because they can do seriously professional stuff with it". I
like the fact that it's more difficult to mess up the "little things".
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I could make some very creative mistakes
with this tool, but it sounds like you have to worry less about having
to make small adjustments because you mis measured by 1/32".

The question is not whether I want this tool. If it was $99, I'd already
have one (and so would you!). Even if it was $399, I'd already have
ordered it. But the kit, with the accessories, cutters and Domino's is a
thousand dollars. That's close to what I've spent on all my other power
tools combined! For that kind of money I can get a good biscuit joiner,
replacement blade, biscuits, (simple) drill press and mortising set,
_and_ a few clamps.

There was a point to this story....or a question. Yes, a question. Three
questions even:
(1) Given that I'm pretty much a complete beginner (Look what I made
tonight honey! Sawdust!), will I get enough value out of this tool?
(2) Domino owners: are your biscuit joiners and mortising tools
gathering (saw)dust now?
(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.


Bas.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:30:33 -0400, Bas wrote:


I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.

I'd buy the Domino early if I were starting out and didn't have the
other tools.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Bas wrote:

| (3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools
| (MR, drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined
| to get a Domino instead?

Not a chance! I already have a tool that'll do everything the Domino
can do and about 100x more - and it's not even glitzy-looking. I've
already used it to build it's own (more accurate) little brother. I'd
be inclined to use the 'Little Brother' to recreate a new version of
its big brother. (Kinda like Norm's panel cutter evolution.)

:-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

Bas,
I don't own a domino, so I won't weigh in on that part of the
discussion, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of opinions there. (search
the archives here for plenty of reviews,tips,etc. by charlieb and
others, if you haven't already).
Regarding the drill press, if mine broke, I would ABSOLUTELY get
another drill press, no matter how many schnazzy new tools were
available. I'd say that's the one tool that gets used on every single
project (well, maybe the block plane too). But I use my drill press
VERY frequently - whenever I can take work to it, rather than taking a
drill to the work, I do. And not just for mortising - I have a
mortising machine and a plunge router mortising jig, and still use the
DP all the time.
That said, if someone gave me a Domino, I'd probably use that a lot
too. But despite all it's glowing reviews, I can't imagine it would
be a replacement for even a fraction of the things I put under the DP.
That's all - just my opinions,
Andy

In practice I've found the biscuit joiner to get little use relative
to almost any other tool. For one, I can't image how it would "cut
down on filling nail- and screw holes." Maybe you can explain that
one.

I've found biscuits helpful when applying a face frame to a big box to
help with alignment. Even then if I had only one box to do I could
probably do some other method faster than setting up the tool, marking
and cutting the slots. And if they are off alignment then the work was
useless.

They can also be helpful in panel glue up to keep boards in the same
plane or minimize slipping but I've found lots of better\faster ways
to do that. If I need a tennon and mortise then that's what I need. I
wouldn't replace that with a biscuit. I really consider them for
alignment purposes only. I know they add "some" strength but nothing
you should calculate into the the strength you need from a joint.

I HAD to have the tool and hardly ended up using it. For $1,000 for a
fancy floating tennon mortiser I would much rather buy a drill press
and mortising attachment.Heck you can get a Grizzly mortiser on a
stand with mill style table for $1044 delivered! http://grizzly.com/products/G0448

On Jul 12, 1:30 pm, Bas wrote:
(Warning - large rambling post ahead)

One day after watching one too many DIY shows, I decided to get into
woodworking. I built a shop, bought some tools, and can now honestly say
I've experienced the joy of router tear-out. I haven't been at it for
very long, long enough to know you can never have too many clamps, but
not long enough to actually build my own clamp rack. That's going to
take _at least_ two more months.

I have a table saw and a router, plus a variety of portable power tools
(jig saw, sanders etc.). On my list of things to get were a biscuit
joiner and a drill press. The biscuit joiner seems like it would be
really helpful when building furniture - bookcases, cabinets, clamp
racks etc. It would certainly cut down on filling nail- and screw holes.
The drill press would be used for making mortises, among other things.

So I Google for "absolutely the best biscuit joiner for cheap" and
"complete comprehensive review of all biscuit joiners ever made" and
read all 12,235 returned documents. Porter-Cable, DeWalt, all the usual
suspects are there. Emotional arguments about whether PC's Face Frame
biscuits is more important than the DeWalt easy adjustment.

Hours pass.

I then come across this thing called a Domino. It's a bird! It's a
plane! It's....well, green. And expensive. It's a Bijolotemo (biscuit
joiner loose tenon mortiser)!

Ooohhh....shiny.

I was intrigued by a comment in one of the reviews. I didn't bookmark
it, but it basically said "Don't let this tool fall into the hands of
novices, because they can do seriously professional stuff with it". I
like the fact that it's more difficult to mess up the "little things".
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I could make some very creative mistakes
with this tool, but it sounds like you have to worry less about having
to make small adjustments because you mis measured by 1/32".

The question is not whether I want this tool. If it was $99, I'd already
have one (and so would you!). Even if it was $399, I'd already have
ordered it. But the kit, with the accessories, cutters and Domino's is a
thousand dollars. That's close to what I've spent on all my other power
tools combined! For that kind of money I can get a good biscuit joiner,
replacement blade, biscuits, (simple) drill press and mortising set,
_and_ a few clamps.

There was a point to this story....or a question. Yes, a question. Three
questions even:
(1) Given that I'm pretty much a complete beginner (Look what I made
tonight honey! Sawdust!), will I get enough value out of this tool?
(2) Domino owners: are your biscuit joiners and mortising tools
gathering (saw)dust now?
(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.

Bas.

Bas wrote in news:46968f4f$0$4678
:

(Warning - large rambling post ahead)

snip of long, rambling post

Bas.

Two questions:

1) If you spent the grand, would you end up in a van down by the river
with no power or high speed internet?

2) And would the significant other in your life go with you?

You're a hobby woodworker. Why does economics of a tool purchase matter?
It's all fun and vanity. Does it matter that someone here may have spent
$2k on a shiny new tablesaw to make cutting boards? Not to me.

If the money is there, spend it. Then write a long and rambling post on
why it makes a really neat garbage can screen fence, with sapwood matched
fence boards handculled from the stacks at the local Orange Borg.

g

I enjoyed that, charlieb.

Patriarch,
owner of a few such purchases...

Bas wrote:

There was a point to this story....or a question. Yes, a question. Three
questions even:
(1) Given that I'm pretty much a complete beginner (Look what I made
tonight honey! Sawdust!), will I get enough value out of this tool?
(2) Domino owners: are your biscuit joiners and mortising tools
gathering (saw)dust now?
(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.

Bas.

Probably more than you want to know - but here goes.

I've got and have used a Porter Cable biscuit cutter. It
began gathering dust not long after its initial use. The newer
PC 557 (I think that's the newer model) is more refined
and more accurate - but still does just biscuits. Biscuits
are self aligning on only one axis and allow some movement on
one axis - unlike a M&T joint or a loose tenon M&T joint which
fixes 5 of the 6 types of movement a joint can experience.

None of the mortising methods to follow do what a drill press
does - so I've still got and still regularly use the JET floor
model.

First - the value of the mortise and tenon joint (the loose tenon
mortise and tenon joint having the same benefits - and only
slightly less strenght than a M&T joint)

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/MT/MTPrimer0.html

I've used several of the machine methods of cutting mortises

"Mortising Accessory" that came with my drill press. The fence
is a joke as are the hold down/hold ins. The chisels and bits were
ok with some clean up and honing. More trouble than it's worth.

Dedicated chisel and bit mortising machine, with XY table - and
tilting head - acquired to cut blind and through mortises for
my workbench - LOTS of them. The XY table makes setting up
for cutting a mortise a lot easier than messing with a simple
fence and table. The General International 75-750M and the
Powermatic 719 are around $800- $850 - and weigh a couple of
hundred pounds
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/G.../Mortiser.html

TREND M&T JIG which, used with a plunge router and their bits
will do mortise and tenon joints - or loose tenon mortise and
tenon joints (mortises in both parts, a separate piece to fit
in both mortises). Has trouble with cutting some tenons due
to accuracy of the bit diameter, the diameter of the guides
and slop in the jig itself. Runs around $300,
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...endMTjig1.html

Horizontal boring/mortiser with XYZ table - one of the five
functions of the Robland X31 combination machine - powered
by a 3 hp motor. Great for cutting larger, deeper mortises
used for making doors. Also can do mortises for chair - with
a shop made jig. Someone earlier mentioned a Grizzly unit
that works the same way.
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/X31pg3.html
And here's the jig mentinoed
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X.../RaysJIG1.html

Don't have one, nor have I used one, but the Leigh FMT jig
and a plunge router will do mortise and tenon joints of
a wide range of sizes. Very accurate. Basic Unit is around
$800, pushes $1000 "fully loaded".

The MultiRouter is basically a horizontal mortiser - but
unlike a basic horizontal mortiser, it can follow templates
for mortises and tenons. Basic unit is in the $2,400 range
and if you get all the accessories can go over $3000.

And then there's the DOMINO.
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/D...OfContent.html

With all other methods, you need layout lines to set up the
mortising machine / jig - at a minimum, the centerline of
the mortise and the ends of the mortise - and you must
align the tool to the layout lines. And most methods require
a test cut or two. The DOMINO requires - at most - one
layout line - the centerline of the mortise. Unlike all the other
methods of cutting mortises, in most instances it requires
NO CLAMP(s). And unlike the router and jig method, will
let you cut mortises in end grain - with the part laying
on your bench - horizontal. It's also fast - to set up and
to cut mortises with - as fast as a biscuit cutter.

If you've got the money, the DOMINO will get you using
loose tenon mortise and tenon joints with almost no
learning curve for the tool or jig. And you'll find all kinds
of uses for M&T joints.

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

charlie b

"charlieb" wrote in message

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

I do believe you're right. After spending a couple of years looking for an
efficient method to do production joinery in a small shop, I can't help but
view the DOMINO as a revolutionary advance in "mortising tools" for small
shops.

AAMOF, the concept has the potential to do for small shop joinery what the
Japanese digital watch did to the watch making industry.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
ups.com...
In practice I've found the biscuit joiner to get little use relative
to almost any other tool. For one, I can't image how it would "cut
down on filling nail- and screw holes." Maybe you can explain that
one.

That's interesting; I just my biscuit jointer as much as anything in my
shop.
But I guess we all have different styles and preferences.

Sometimes the fact that it only gives alignment in one axis is very helpful.
I am a bit put off the domino because I dislike dowels so; but that might
not be a reasonable comparison.

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
....
...I can't image how it would "cut
down on filling nail- and screw holes." Maybe you can explain that
one.

....

One way is if doing face frames and has been nailing them. As in
anything else, all depends on a given type of work and work practice...

--

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
In practice I've found the biscuit joiner to get little use relative
to almost any other tool. For one, I can't image how it would "cut
down on filling nail- and screw holes." Maybe you can explain that
one.

I had to attach some pieces of trim to a bookcase. Glue is sufficient to
hold it under normal circumstances, there is no stress on it. But, if
someone ever decides to pick it up by the trim to move the bookcase, it
could easily break off. A few biscuits would have provided the necessary
strength, but lacking a biscuit joiner I put in some finish nails.

A face frame is another good example.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:07:02 -0700, "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:

My b-jointer got LOTS of use for a month or so... *g*


In practice I've found the biscuit joiner to get little use relative
to almost any other tool. For one, I can't image how it would "cut
down on filling nail- and screw holes." Maybe you can explain that
one.

I've found biscuits helpful when applying a face frame to a big box to
help with alignment. Even then if I had only one box to do I could
probably do some other method faster than setting up the tool, marking
and cutting the slots. And if they are off alignment then the work was
useless.

They can also be helpful in panel glue up to keep boards in the same
plane or minimize slipping but I've found lots of better\faster ways
to do that. If I need a tennon and mortise then that's what I need. I
wouldn't replace that with a biscuit. I really consider them for
alignment purposes only. I know they add "some" strength but nothing
you should calculate into the the strength you need from a joint.

I HAD to have the tool and hardly ended up using it. For $1,000 for a
fancy floating tennon mortiser I would much rather buy a drill press
and mortising attachment.Heck you can get a Grizzly mortiser on a
stand with mill style table for $1044 delivered! http://grizzly.com/products/G0448

On Jul 12, 1:30 pm, Bas wrote:
(Warning - large rambling post ahead)

One day after watching one too many DIY shows, I decided to get into
woodworking. I built a shop, bought some tools, and can now honestly say
I've experienced the joy of router tear-out. I haven't been at it for
very long, long enough to know you can never have too many clamps, but
not long enough to actually build my own clamp rack. That's going to
take _at least_ two more months.

I have a table saw and a router, plus a variety of portable power tools
(jig saw, sanders etc.). On my list of things to get were a biscuit
joiner and a drill press. The biscuit joiner seems like it would be
really helpful when building furniture - bookcases, cabinets, clamp
racks etc. It would certainly cut down on filling nail- and screw holes.
The drill press would be used for making mortises, among other things.

So I Google for "absolutely the best biscuit joiner for cheap" and
"complete comprehensive review of all biscuit joiners ever made" and
read all 12,235 returned documents. Porter-Cable, DeWalt, all the usual
suspects are there. Emotional arguments about whether PC's Face Frame
biscuits is more important than the DeWalt easy adjustment.

Hours pass.

I then come across this thing called a Domino. It's a bird! It's a
plane! It's....well, green. And expensive. It's a Bijolotemo (biscuit
joiner loose tenon mortiser)!

Ooohhh....shiny.

I was intrigued by a comment in one of the reviews. I didn't bookmark
it, but it basically said "Don't let this tool fall into the hands of
novices, because they can do seriously professional stuff with it". I
like the fact that it's more difficult to mess up the "little things".
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I could make some very creative mistakes
with this tool, but it sounds like you have to worry less about having
to make small adjustments because you mis measured by 1/32".

The question is not whether I want this tool. If it was $99, I'd already
have one (and so would you!). Even if it was $399, I'd already have
ordered it. But the kit, with the accessories, cutters and Domino's is a
thousand dollars. That's close to what I've spent on all my other power
tools combined! For that kind of money I can get a good biscuit joiner,
replacement blade, biscuits, (simple) drill press and mortising set,
_and_ a few clamps.

There was a point to this story....or a question. Yes, a question. Three
questions even:
(1) Given that I'm pretty much a complete beginner (Look what I made
tonight honey! Sawdust!), will I get enough value out of this tool?
(2) Domino owners: are your biscuit joiners and mortising tools
gathering (saw)dust now?
(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.

Bas.



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:42:30 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

I do believe you're right. After spending a couple of years looking for an
efficient method to do production joinery in a small shop, I can't help but
view the DOMINO as a revolutionary advance in "mortising tools" for small
shops.

AAMOF, the concept has the potential to do for small shop joinery what the
Japanese digital watch did to the watch making industry.

And hopefully, the pricing will become more reasonable with demand, as the
digital watch did...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Toller wrote:

( biscuits providing alignment on only one axis - and preventing
rotation about one axis)

Sometimes the fact that it only gives alignment in one axis is very helpful.

Having a little room for parts movement can be handy - edge joining
bookmatched boards for a panel and you want the grain to align as
closely as possible. Or a mitered corners edging for a ply door
would
be another place where a little sliding slop could come in handy.
The
DOMINO permits you to "dial in" either 6 or 10 mm (about 1/4" to
almost 0.4") - or just shift it left and or right while cutting a
mortise.

I am a bit put off the domino because I dislike dowels so; but that might
not be a reasonable comparison.

Because the DOMINO looks a lot like a biscuit cutter, and the loose
tenons
appear in photos like fat dowels - and because the brain works with
associations - it's natural that folks will think of the DOMINO in
terms
of something they already are familiar with - biscuit cutters and
biscuits and/or dowel jigs and dowels. And those associations are
useful - to a point. If you've used a biscuit cutter you know that
they
don't require a lot of layout lines - actually only one layout line.
And
you know they're fast and pretty easy to use. Both of those pre-
conceived notions are true with the DOMINO. And if you've used a
horizontal boring machine or a doweling jig, drill bit and drill, you
understand that in addition to their joining end grain to side grain
they also align the two parts on two axis. You also know that you
need TWO dowels if you want to prevent rotation. And dowels were
used to edge join boards for panels long before the arrival of
Lamello's
biscuit cutter/joiner.

The problem with "if it looks like a duck and/or sounds like a duck -
then it's probably a duck" may be the DOMINO's biggest obstacle
because people will see it and make assumptions which are not
true. There's a reason there's an old adage ' "Assume" can make
an ASS out of U and ME.'

Yes, the DOMINO cuts a slot. But unlike a biscuit slot, which has
parallel sides, but curved ends and bottom, the DOMINO cuts a
"slot" with parallel sides, parallel ends AND a flat bottom.

Yes, the DOMINO cuts a hole. But unlike a dowel hole, the hole
is rectangular, not round.

Let me use another old adage - A camel is a horse designed by
a committee.. That normally has a negative connotation. But
what if you were designing a horse that would be used in a
dessert environment - where food and water, along with good
footing, are hard to come by - and flies weren't something
that needed to be swatted - with a long haired tail? (I've got
to wonder if the folks in dessert environments have an
equivalent adage - "A horse is a camel designed by a committee."?)

Though I've been accused of being a shill for Festool and their
DOMINO, I'll keep saying that the DOMINO is a revolutionary new
woodworking tool which can bring loose tenon mortise and tenon
joinery to both the amateur / hobbyist AND small production
shops. I'll add - I have NO connection with Festool or any dealers
of Festool equiptment/machines/tools - other than owning some
- which I paid the going price for - out of my own pocket. My
opinions are my own - based on MY experience with tools, machines
and jigs that cut mortises. Your mileage may vary.

charlie b

Inaccurate analogy.

The tools used to make digital watches haven't dropped in price appreciably,
only the end products, the digital watches have.

The Domino won't necessarily drop in price, but the cost of making things
with a Domino could, at least in theory. More likely, prices will remain
level or rise and the those using the Domino or it's off-brand equivalent
will make a little bit more money by saving a little bit of time.

When was the last time you paid less for something cause it was produced by
a less expensive tool?

That was the theory expounded by those who claimed that the age of the
computer would make the 40 work week a thing of the past, that paperless
offices would be the norm, they were right in one regard, people are now
expected to do more in less time since they've been given those amazing
labor saving devices...they're still working 40 plus hour weeks, they're
just making less money doing so.

John E.

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:42:30 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

I do believe you're right. After spending a couple of years looking for
an
efficient method to do production joinery in a small shop, I can't help
but
view the DOMINO as a revolutionary advance in "mortising tools" for small
shops.

AAMOF, the concept has the potential to do for small shop joinery what
the
Japanese digital watch did to the watch making industry.

And hopefully, the pricing will become more reasonable with demand, as the
digital watch did...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

OK, I can see that but if I wanted strength I would use something more
substantial like a real spline or add a dado or modify the joint
somehow. But I guess a few biscuits can add some strength but I don't
think much.

On Jul 13, 8:22 am, Bas wrote:
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
In practice I've found the biscuit joiner to get little use relative
to almost any other tool. For one, I can't image how it would "cut
down on filling nail- and screw holes." Maybe you can explain that
one.

I had to attach some pieces of trim to a bookcase. Glue is sufficient to
hold it under normal circumstances, there is no stress on it. But, if
someone ever decides to pick it up by the trim to move the bookcase, it
could easily break off. A few biscuits would have provided the necessary
strength, but lacking a biscuit joiner I put in some finish nails.

A face frame is another good example.

Nicely put.

However, now I'll probably feel crappy when I finally get up the cash
to get my long dreamed over Multi-router (in a Homer Simpson voice
"ohhhh ... shiney") and I'll always wonder if I should have bought 2
Dominos. However, the domino won't do box joints, dovetails (including
sliding), round and rectangular tennons.

My only real question about how much I'll love my Mulit-router is if I
can pull off making through tennons by squaring the tennons by hand
and undercutting the mortises and squaring them by hand too.

On Jul 13, 2:45 am, charlieb wrote:
Bas wrote:
There was a point to this story....or a question. Yes, a question. Three
questions even:
(1) Given that I'm pretty much a complete beginner (Look what I made
tonight honey! Sawdust!), will I get enough value out of this tool?
(2) Domino owners: are your biscuit joiners and mortising tools
gathering (saw)dust now?
(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.

Bas.

Probably more than you want to know - but here goes.

I've got and have used a Porter Cable biscuit cutter. It
began gathering dust not long after its initial use. The newer
PC 557 (I think that's the newer model) is more refined
and more accurate - but still does just biscuits. Biscuits
are self aligning on only one axis and allow some movement on
one axis - unlike a M&T joint or a loose tenon M&T joint which
fixes 5 of the 6 types of movement a joint can experience.

None of the mortising methods to follow do what a drill press
does - so I've still got and still regularly use the JET floor
model.

First - the value of the mortise and tenon joint (the loose tenon
mortise and tenon joint having the same benefits - and only
slightly less strenght than a M&T joint)

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/MT/MTPrimer0.html

I've used several of the machine methods of cutting mortises

"Mortising Accessory" that came with my drill press. The fence
is a joke as are the hold down/hold ins. The chisels and bits were
ok with some clean up and honing. More trouble than it's worth.

Dedicated chisel and bit mortising machine, with XY table - and
tilting head - acquired to cut blind and through mortises for
my workbench - LOTS of them. The XY table makes setting up
for cutting a mortise a lot easier than messing with a simple
fence and table. The General International 75-750M and the
Powermatic 719 are around $800- $850 - and weigh a couple of
hundred poundshttp://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/GeneralMortiser/Mortiser.html

TREND M&T JIG which, used with a plunge router and their bits
will do mortise and tenon joints - or loose tenon mortise and
tenon joints (mortises in both parts, a separate piece to fit
in both mortises). Has trouble with cutting some tenons due
to accuracy of the bit diameter, the diameter of the guides
and slop in the jig itself. Runs around $300,http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...endMTjig1.html

Horizontal boring/mortiser with XYZ table - one of the five
functions of the Robland X31 combination machine - powered
by a 3 hp motor. Great for cutting larger, deeper mortises
used for making doors. Also can do mortises for chair - with
a shop made jig. Someone earlier mentioned a Grizzly unit
that works the same way.http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/X31pg3.html
And here's the jig mentinoedhttp://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/RaysMortiser1/RaysJIG1.html

Don't have one, nor have I used one, but the Leigh FMT jig
and a plunge router will do mortise and tenon joints of
a wide range of sizes. Very accurate. Basic Unit is around
$800, pushes $1000 "fully loaded".

The MultiRouter is basically a horizontal mortiser - but
unlike a basic horizontal mortiser, it can follow templates
for mortises and tenons. Basic unit is in the $2,400 range
and if you get all the accessories can go over $3000.

And then there's the DOMINO.http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/D...OfContent.html

With all other methods, you need layout lines to set up the
mortising machine / jig - at a minimum, the centerline of
the mortise and the ends of the mortise - and you must
align the tool to the layout lines. And most methods require
a test cut or two. The DOMINO requires - at most - one
layout line - the centerline of the mortise. Unlike all the other
methods of cutting mortises, in most instances it requires
NO CLAMP(s). And unlike the router and jig method, will
let you cut mortises in end grain - with the part laying
on your bench - horizontal. It's also fast - to set up and
to cut mortises with - as fast as a biscuit cutter.

If you've got the money, the DOMINO will get you using
loose tenon mortise and tenon joints with almost no
learning curve for the tool or jig. And you'll find all kinds
of uses for M&T joints.

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

charlie b- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Plus we generate way more paper now than ever before.


On Jul 13, 11:07 am, "John E." wrote:
Inaccurate analogy.

The tools used to make digital watches haven't dropped in price appreciably,
only the end products, the digital watches have.

The Domino won't necessarily drop in price, but the cost of making things
with a Domino could, at least in theory. More likely, prices will remain
level or rise and the those using the Domino or it's off-brand equivalent
will make a little bit more money by saving a little bit of time.

When was the last time you paid less for something cause it was produced by
a less expensive tool?

That was the theory expounded by those who claimed that the age of the
computer would make the 40 work week a thing of the past, that paperless
offices would be the norm, they were right in one regard, people are now
expected to do more in less time since they've been given those amazing
labor saving devices...they're still working 40 plus hour weeks, they're
just making less money doing so.

John E.

"mac davis" wrote in message

...



On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:42:30 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

I do believe you're right. After spending a couple of years looking for
an
efficient method to do production joinery in a small shop, I can't help
but
view the DOMINO as a revolutionary advance in "mortising tools" for small
shops.

AAMOF, the concept has the potential to do for small shop joinery what
the
Japanese digital watch did to the watch making industry.

And hopefully, the pricing will become more reasonable with demand, as the
digital watch did...

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

charlieb wrote:
Probably more than you want to know - but here goes.
extremely informative and very detailed information snipped
If you've got the money, the DOMINO will get you using
loose tenon mortise and tenon joints with almost no
learning curve for the tool or jig. And you'll find all kinds
of uses for M&T joints.

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

charlie b

This is absolutely terrific information - thanks! I've been wanting to
get into M&T joinery, but found it a little intimidating. The Domino
makes it look so simple in comparison. My biggest concern was getting
the right mileage out of the tool. Sounds like the Domino is good for
both beginners and pros.

Bas.

"John E." wrote in message
Inaccurate analogy.

The tools used to make digital watches haven't dropped in price
appreciably,
only the end products, the digital watches have.

Shallow thinking.

The cost of knowing the correct time has dropped dramatically, as will the
cost of making the type of joints the DOMINO does.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Patriarch wrote:
If the money is there, spend it. Then write a long and rambling post on
why it makes a really neat garbage can screen fence, with sapwood matched
fence boards handculled from the stacks at the local Orange Borg.

You know, that's a very good point. Apart from all the technical
considerations (which Charlie B did a fantastic job of describing), this
_is_ a hobby. Sometimes, I just need to turn off the rational side of my
brain.

So, I think I'm going to get a Domino. AND a drill press. And a few
other items....

Bas.

"Bas" wrote in message

This is absolutely terrific information - thanks! I've been wanting to get
into M&T joinery, but found it a little intimidating. The Domino makes it
look so simple in comparison. My biggest concern was getting the right
mileage out of the tool. Sounds like the Domino is good for both beginners
and pros.

Go for it ...

The need for more complicated joinery is something most woodworkers face if
they stick with it long enough, and they generally come face to face with Mt
Everest when the need for accurate and repeatable compound angle joinery
rears its head in projects like chair making.

"Loose or Floating" tenon joinery is a big step toward solving the problem,
as it is comparable in strength with traditional M&T joinery and in many
case stronger, particularly with compounnd angle joints where the tenon may
have to be cut in an unfavorable grain or direction that actually weakens
the traditional joint.

In short, the necessity to quickly and effectively do repeatable compound
angle M&T joinery is a must have for production runs in a small shop. Both
the M-R and Domino, as well as other solutions like the Leigh FMT,
facilitate loose tenon joinery.

Both excel at compound angle mortising, with the Domino making the accuracy
and repeatability factor _much_ more affordable for the home shop.

Besides doing a lot of cabinetry, I always have a furniture project of some
type going in the shop ... if I didn't already own a Multi-Router, I would
invest in a Domino in a heartbeat.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jul 12, 3:30 pm, Bas wrote:
(Warning - large rambling post ahead)

One day after watching one too many DIY shows, I decided to get into
woodworking. I built a shop, bought some tools, and can now honestly say
I've experienced the joy of router tear-out. I haven't been at it for
very long, long enough to know you can never have too many clamps, but
not long enough to actually build my own clamp rack. That's going to
take _at least_ two more months.

I have a table saw and a router, plus a variety of portable power tools
(jig saw, sanders etc.). On my list of things to get were a biscuit
joiner and a drill press. The biscuit joiner seems like it would be
really helpful when building furniture - bookcases, cabinets, clamp
racks etc. It would certainly cut down on filling nail- and screw holes.
The drill press would be used for making mortises, among other things.

So I Google for "absolutely the best biscuit joiner for cheap" and
"complete comprehensive review of all biscuit joiners ever made" and
read all 12,235 returned documents. Porter-Cable, DeWalt, all the usual
suspects are there. Emotional arguments about whether PC's Face Frame
biscuits is more important than the DeWalt easy adjustment.

Hours pass.

I then come across this thing called a Domino. It's a bird! It's a
plane! It's....well, green. And expensive. It's a Bijolotemo (biscuit
joiner loose tenon mortiser)!

Ooohhh....shiny.

I was intrigued by a comment in one of the reviews. I didn't bookmark
it, but it basically said "Don't let this tool fall into the hands of
novices, because they can do seriously professional stuff with it". I
like the fact that it's more difficult to mess up the "little things".
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I could make some very creative mistakes
with this tool, but it sounds like you have to worry less about having
to make small adjustments because you mis measured by 1/32".

The question is not whether I want this tool. If it was $99, I'd already
have one (and so would you!). Even if it was $399, I'd already have
ordered it. But the kit, with the accessories, cutters and Domino's is a
thousand dollars. That's close to what I've spent on all my other power
tools combined! For that kind of money I can get a good biscuit joiner,
replacement blade, biscuits, (simple) drill press and mortising set,
_and_ a few clamps.

There was a point to this story....or a question. Yes, a question. Three
questions even:
(1) Given that I'm pretty much a complete beginner (Look what I made
tonight honey! Sawdust!), will I get enough value out of this tool?

I've played with the Domino in the woodworking store. I liked it.
Have not bought it yet because I have other uses for $1000 in the next
couple months and won't have any time for woodworking. I see value in
the Domino for the beginner, amateur woodworker because it will allow
him/her to complete a project quicker, easier. You will be more
productive. Yes the journey, process is important. But actually
making something is darn nice too. The Domino allows you to make
nice, good, quality mortise and tenon joints on normal sized pieces of
furniture in a minimum of time. Little to no setup or layout time
required. Just make a good mortise and tenon joint on your furniture
and move on to completing, finishing the project. Making something is
darn nice.




(2) Domino owners: are your biscuit joiners and mortising tools
gathering (saw)dust now?

I do not use my DeWalt biscuit jointer much. I think of its biscuits
as a cheap joint not suitable for real woodworking. Unlike the Domino
loose tenon and mortise joints which I consider very acceptable joints
for good furniture. Biscuit jionter is mainly, only used for edge
jointing boards. And then the biscuits are just for alignment
purposes, not adding any strength. Despite Norm using the biscuit
jionter on every project it seems, I hardly use mine.


(3) Non-domino owners: If your biscuit joiner and mortising tools (MR,
drill press etc.) broke tomorrow, would you be more inclined to get a
Domino instead?

Drill press is a completely different tool. Useful for much more than
drilling mortises. You probably need a drill press with or without a
Domino or biscuit jointer. I use a U shaped jig and plunge router to
make mortises. And table saw and dado blade for tenons. Lots of
setup and time for a joint you never see. Domino would do the same,
similar joint so much faster. And if I needed really big tenons and
mortises, I could still do it with the plunge router and table saw for
that once a year or decade project. Domino would likely be used 99%
of the time on normal sized furniture. If I had to do it again, I
would not buy a biscuit jointer.





I know, I know, these questions are like throwing a grenade into a dust
collection system. Or a homeowner asking a question in alt.hvac. But I
_want_ the Domino, I just need some people to tell me it's the right
thing to do.

Bas.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:07:37 GMT, "John E." wrote:


Inaccurate analogy.

Whatever...
What I was trying to say is that IMO, when a new tool comes out, especially if
it's only distributed by a high end company, it's going to be expensive..

However, since success breeds ruinous competition, there will be other machines
like it on the market as soon as the demand is there... very much like the early
biscuit jointers and plunge routers..


The tools used to make digital watches haven't dropped in price appreciably,
only the end products, the digital watches have.

Umm... I think that was MY point...
I don't care if it costs them $9 or $999 to make, I'm a consumer, not an
engineer..
I also don't care how much it costs to make a plasma TV... but I'm glad I didn't
buy on of the first couple.. *g*


The Domino won't necessarily drop in price, but the cost of making things
with a Domino could, at least in theory. More likely, prices will remain
level or rise and the those using the Domino or it's off-brand equivalent
will make a little bit more money by saving a little bit of time.

When was the last time you paid less for something cause it was produced by
a less expensive tool?

That was the theory expounded by those who claimed that the age of the
computer would make the 40 work week a thing of the past, that paperless
offices would be the norm, they were right in one regard, people are now
expected to do more in less time since they've been given those amazing
labor saving devices...they're still working 40 plus hour weeks, they're
just making less money doing so.

John E.

"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:42:30 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

I do believe you're right. After spending a couple of years looking for
an
efficient method to do production joinery in a small shop, I can't help
but
view the DOMINO as a revolutionary advance in "mortising tools" for small
shops.

AAMOF, the concept has the potential to do for small shop joinery what
the
Japanese digital watch did to the watch making industry.

And hopefully, the pricing will become more reasonable with demand, as the
digital watch did...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Swingman" wrote in message

Besides doing a lot of cabinetry, I always have a furniture project of
some
type going in the shop ... if I didn't already own a Multi-Router, I would
invest in a Domino in a heartbeat.

If I owned a Multi-Router and felt the same way you feel about the Domino,
I'd think about selling the Multi-Router now before the Domino became too
popular, lowering what I could get for the M-R.

"Upscale" wrote in message

If I owned a Multi-Router and felt the same way you feel about the Domino,
I'd think about selling the Multi-Router now before the Domino became too
popular, lowering what I could get for the M-R.

Nice try, but it's not for sale!

The M-R can do everything the Domino can, and very many things it can't.
That said, I like to think I've been around long enough to recognize a good
thing when I see it, and the Domino is a good thing for the small shop
woodworker.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message

I'd think about selling the Multi-Router now before the Domino became
too
popular, lowering what I could get for the M-R.

Nice try, but it's not for sale!

Hey, I had to try. g

the Domino is a good thing for the small shop woodworker.

I agree, it does appear to be a very competent tool for the little shop.
And, considering the amount of setup and usage time that it could save, the
cost consideration is not all that relevant.

Not shallow at all, in fact you agreed with what I wrote.

The original poster was talking about the price of the TOOL dropping in
price, not the price of the products made with the tool. I only brought that
part up to illustrate my accurate analogy. Sorry you missed the point.

John E.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"John E." wrote in message
Inaccurate analogy.

The tools used to make digital watches haven't dropped in price
appreciably,
only the end products, the digital watches have.

Shallow thinking.

The cost of knowing the correct time has dropped dramatically, as will the
cost of making the type of joints the DOMINO does.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the price of the actual
Domino will be dropping any time soon.

The tools to make plasma screens aren't any cheaper now, it's just become
less expensive to buy one now that there are more manufacturers in the game
and the market size has increased.

Put it this way, if a handsaw drops in price, do the prices of the things
made with a handsaw also drop in price?

I have no doubt that Harbor Freight is already hard at work copying the
technology behind the Domino. That doesn't mean that Festool is gonna drop
the price on a real Domino.

John E.

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:07:37 GMT, "John E."
wrote:


Inaccurate analogy.

Whatever...
What I was trying to say is that IMO, when a new tool comes out,
especially if
it's only distributed by a high end company, it's going to be expensive..

However, since success breeds ruinous competition, there will be other
machines
like it on the market as soon as the demand is there... very much like the
early
biscuit jointers and plunge routers..


The tools used to make digital watches haven't dropped in price
appreciably,
only the end products, the digital watches have.

Umm... I think that was MY point...
I don't care if it costs them $9 or $999 to make, I'm a consumer, not an
engineer..
I also don't care how much it costs to make a plasma TV... but I'm glad I
didn't
buy on of the first couple.. *g*


The Domino won't necessarily drop in price, but the cost of making things
with a Domino could, at least in theory. More likely, prices will remain
level or rise and the those using the Domino or it's off-brand equivalent
will make a little bit more money by saving a little bit of time.

When was the last time you paid less for something cause it was produced
by
a less expensive tool?

That was the theory expounded by those who claimed that the age of the
computer would make the 40 work week a thing of the past, that paperless
offices would be the norm, they were right in one regard, people are now
expected to do more in less time since they've been given those amazing
labor saving devices...they're still working 40 plus hour weeks, they're
just making less money doing so.

John E.

"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:42:30 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message

I believe the DOMINO will change how many make furniture
sized pieces because of its speed, accuracy and ease of
use.

I do believe you're right. After spending a couple of years looking
for
an
efficient method to do production joinery in a small shop, I can't
help
but
view the DOMINO as a revolutionary advance in "mortising tools" for
small
shops.

AAMOF, the concept has the potential to do for small shop joinery what
the
Japanese digital watch did to the watch making industry.

And hopefully, the pricing will become more reasonable with demand, as
the
digital watch did...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"John E." wrote in message ...

The original poster was talking about the price of the TOOL dropping in
price, not the price of the products made with the tool. I only brought
that
part up to illustrate my accurate analogy. Sorry you missed the point.

And for good reason ... your diatribe was "pointless" and uninformative,
except that it showed your ass.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"mac davis" wrote in message
...


And hopefully, the pricing will become more reasonable with demand, as the
digital watch did...


Well, probably not. I strongly suspect that there is a pantent on the
Domino. The Fein Multimaster has not had any real competition until
relatively reccently when their patent expired. I have never seen any
Festool prices drop and because they have a strict priving policy you
probably will not see a drop in price. And like the Lamelllo plate joiner
the Domino will probably remain at higher prices even after the patent runs
out, if there is one.


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"John E." wrote in message
...
I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the price of the actual
Domino will be dropping any time soon.

The tools to make plasma screens aren't any cheaper now, it's just become
less expensive to buy one now that there are more manufacturers in the
game
and the market size has increased.


Having been watching the plasma screen for many many years now. I suspect
that the real reason that they are finally coming down in price is because
the LCD screens which have no glare and are preferred in most cases over the
plasma have been dropping to reasonable prices. I have noticed that when
the LCD's reached the plasma prices that the plasma screens started dropping
in price at the same pace as the LCD's. I strongly suspect that the plasma
screen TV's will be obsolete sooner than later much like the old CRT
computer screens have become obsolete.

On Jul 14, 11:19 am, "Leon" wrote:

I have never seen any Festool prices drop and because they have a strict priving policy you
probably will not see a drop in price. And like the Lamelllo plate joiner the Domino will probably remain at higher prices even after the patent runs
out, if there is one.

I am with you 100% on that. Fein has even patented their blades
design and construction, and every time someone decides to start
making knockoffs they are served. A machine shop guy I met on the
'net that was selling them for about half the Fein models told me
that. He only made two models, a piece of bent sheet tool steel snap
welded onto a nub to fit the tool, one wide and one narrow toothed
blade, but that was close enough for Fein.

And who knows how much money went into designing a reliable sturdy
tool like the Domino, as well as designing the tooling for
manufacture? Literally millions, I have no doubt. So I suspect not
only vigorous defense of their designs and patents, but for any aspect
of that tool that would be considered their property.

I am willing to bet it NEVER goes down in price.

As you said, the Fein Multimaster is an excellent example of a
comparable situation.

Robert

"Leon" wrote in message \

"John E." wrote in message

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the price of the
actual
Domino will be dropping any time soon.

The tools to make plasma screens aren't any cheaper now, it's just become
less expensive to buy one now that there are more manufacturers in the
game
and the market size has increased.


Having been watching the plasma screen for many many years now. I suspect
that the real reason that they are finally coming down in price is because
the LCD screens which have no glare and are preferred in most cases over
the plasma have been dropping to reasonable prices. I have noticed that
when the LCD's reached the plasma prices that the plasma screens started
dropping in price at the same pace as the LCD's. I strongly suspect that
the plasma screen TV's will be obsolete sooner than later much like the
old CRT computer screens have become obsolete.

LOL ... Johneboy's still running irrelevant rabbit trails.

As you well know as a Domino owner, the _cost_ of the Domino is irrelevant
to the woodworker who actually needs the tool to boost productivity because,
like most investments that increase productivity, it will either pay for
itself, or you didn't need it in the first place ... and with the Domino,
most likely sooner rather than later.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bas wrote:

I've been wanting to
get into M&T joinery, but found it a little intimidating. The Domino
makes it look so simple in comparison. My biggest concern was getting
the right mileage out of the tool. Sounds like the Domino is good for
both beginners and pros.

I suspect beginners wouldn't normally spring for a grand when they've
got the basics to purchase first
- decent table saw, preferably a cabinet saw - with a good fence
- joiner with infeed and outfeed tables long enough to deal
with 4' long boards - and wide enough to deal with AT LEAST
8" wide boards
- planer that'll handle 12" wide boards
and maybe
- a bandsaw
- a miter saw or compound miter saw or sliding compound
miter saw - with infeed and outfeed tables - and flip stops
- a router table with a good fence system (see JoinTech/Incra)
and an assortment of router bits
- a drill press and drill bits
- a decent plunge router for free handing/template following
then there's the hand tools
- block plane
- smoother (#4)
- jack plane (#5)
- joiner (#6, 7 and/or 8)
- maybe a shoulder plane
- perhaps a router plane
- a decent set of chisels (the blue handled Marples maybe?)
- a dovetail saw
- a tenon saw
- card and cabinet scrapers
And then there's the various sanders
:
:
:

Any type of woodworking is a slippery slope - a hole in the
gar - make that "shop" - into which money flows and
scraps and piles of sawdust float out - with an occassionaly
piece of furniture actually leaving. On the other hand,
the non-monatarized value - can be priceless.

Swingman's answer gets to the interesting question
I asked earlier "Can a tool change What you make AND
How you make it?" and the subsequent question "Can
joinery change What you make and How you make it?"

Adding mortise and tenon - or loose tenon mortise and
tenon - joinery to your woodworking capabilities will
certainly change your Project List. And if you have
the disposable income to purchase the Leigh FMT, the
DOMINO or the MultiRouter you're more apt to get to
M&T sooner and use them more often than you would
otherwise.

But - if you skip over doing some M&T joints using more
traditional hand tool methods - you'll miss a wonderful,
though occassionally frustrating, experience in your
woodworking journey. The use of handtools gives you
a better understanding of the woods you use, providing
feed back which you seldom get from power tools. And
the satisfaction obtained can make the "making" part
of the journey as valued - by you - as the finished piece.
And often, a hand tool will do the job faster and easier
than breaking out a power tool, setting it up, making
test cuts etc..

And Swingman wrote"

If I owned a Multi-Router and felt the same way you feel about the Domino,
I'd think about selling the Multi-Router now before the Domino became too
popular, lowering what I could get for the M-R.

If you owned a MutiRouter I'd bet you wouldn't part with it
no matter what new tool came along. The Leigh FMT and
the DOMINO do mortise and tenons and loose tenon mortises.
The MultiRouter does all that AND a lot more. Probably
should add the WoodRat to the list as well.

But he does get points for trying to pick up a used
MultiRouter at a discounted price. Nice try ; ).

charlie b

ps

there's a Festools Owners Group you might want
to look into

http://festoolownersgroup.com

"charlieb" wrote in message

But - if you skip over doing some M&T joints using more
traditional hand tool methods - you'll miss a wonderful,
though occassionally frustrating, experience in your
woodworking journey. The use of handtools gives you
a better understanding of the woods you use, providing
feed back which you seldom get from power tools. And
the satisfaction obtained can make the "making" part
of the journey as valued - by you - as the finished piece.
And often, a hand tool will do the job faster and easier
than breaking out a power tool, setting it up, making
test cuts etc..

FWIW, you will note that I have purposely limited my remarks/comments about
the Domino to those who have a specific need for increasing *productivity*
in a small shop environment, and with a very specific type of joinery ...
one you rarely see practised by hand (floating/loose tenon).

And Swingman wrote"

If I owned a Multi-Router and felt the same way you feel about the
Domino,
I'd think about selling the Multi-Router now before the Domino became too
popular, lowering what I could get for the M-R.

Not me ... actually, I think that was Upscale? But my reply to him was
almost verbatim what you said.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

First let me say I do plan to purchase a dominio but dont think you
should. As charlieb pointed out theres too many items too purchase
before a Dominio. When you are ready to purchase a dominio dont forget
a vac. The dominio will not work correctly without a vac. I could use
my noisy shop vac but instead will purchase a festool CT22 vac. I do
have a central DC system but that wont cut it.You have to decide if
you want the Norm approach and have everything under power, or mix in
card scrapers, hand cut dovetails,, block plane etc. with the power
equip. A drill press wont make a mortise at the end of a long board so
you have to learn to make a tenon with TS,Router, hand cut , etc.The
festool stuff wont come down in price I agree, but the competitor
products, Multi-router,FMT etc allready are coming down in price I
suspect because of the dominio . Learn to make a tenon with more than
one way and make a morise with drill press, router, hand. A complete
woodworker knows different methods and does not rely on one.

"henry" wrote in message

festool stuff wont come down in price I agree, but the competitor
products, Multi-router,FMT etc allready are coming down in price I
suspect because of the dominio .

You got a source for that? The M-R has not budged in price for years and a
check with the only retail outlet authorized to publish a price for the M-R
shows your statement to be suspect.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...S&Category=320

---
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 02:39:21 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


You got a source for that? The M-R has not budged in price for years and a
check with the only retail outlet authorized to publish a price for the M-R
shows your statement to be suspect.

I can see MR owners adding a Domino to the quiver, not replacing one
with the other.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 02:39:21 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


You got a source for that? The M-R has not budged in price for years and
a
check with the only retail outlet authorized to publish a price for the
M-R
shows your statement to be suspect.

I can see MR owners adding a Domino to the quiver, not replacing one
with the other.

You're right ... but strange things happen, and it would likely be someone
who used the M-R strictly for mortising. Even then I think it would be hard
to give up the variable/increased mortise depth and size.

I'm a BIG fan of the Domino, but, like it's first cousin the biscuit
jointer, it's plainly a one-trick-pony ... although one hell of a useful
trick.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)