On Nov 18, 11:00 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
[snip]

PS Yes, I do have a degree in engineering. You?Georgia Tech '79. Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
counters for a living?

I retired in 2003 at age 54. I sold my business, which as part of the
services included the fabrication of solid surface countertops. Mostly
in commercial application such as Burger king, McDonalds etc.
To keep myself in turbo chargers for my other hobby, I decided to make
a few tops here and there for people (*cueing up some angelic choir
music*) who otherwise couldn't have afforded them.
Turns out I got busier than I wanted to be, but somehow I'll control
that in the near future. For now I am raking in the megabucks and
buying my town, city block by city block. Ordered a new Bentley and a
Gulfstream IV jet as well.
I'm going to paint great big ****ing Corian logos all over them too.


As if.

r

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Happens every day.

Lew

J. Clarke wrote:

Georgia Tech '79.

Rookie.

Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
counters for a living?

My guess is the freedom to screw up and just maybe make a $ while
doing it.

Lew Hodgett, PE

On Nov 18, 11:52 pm, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Somebody wrote: Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Happens every day.

Well said, Lew. However, this town of 70,000 with a total population if
you include the whole county, of maybe 125,000 people, will not support
two fabricating shops. In that respect, the manyfacturers look at me as
if I am a franchise.
Anybody who would gear up to make the neccessary investments, would
know that there wouldn't be room for two.
If somebody from the next town over (London) called me for a quote, I'd
refer them to a fabricator I know who will do a good job at a good
price.... in London. He paid to play, he ante'd up, he spend the time
to learn the ins and outs, he's every bit as good at it as I am (maybe
better).

We have one Honda dealer here and I can't for the life of me imagine
two.

r

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:38:14 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

On Nov 18, 10:36 pm, "CW" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in messagenews:

Now, let's quote the entire statement, shall we?

Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things
from another perspective.
If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new,
unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask

myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my
pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the

point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business. I

am not some phylantropical institution no matter how much the likes of
Mr. Clarke would like me to be.

Huh? Who has asked you to be a "phylantropical institution"?

Look, moron, I don't want to compete with you, and it will be a cold day
in Hell before I buy anything from you. What I want is to be able to buy
a product at a fair price. That's all. But since the stuff is so
delicate and fragile and likely to burst into flames at the drop of a hat,
I don't want anything to do with it at this point. You've turned me off
of it entirely by pointing out at length what utter crap it is.

Next thing you know, I stop ordering from that distributor. Meanwhile,
the new fabricator's bills are due...he's not making enough money to
operate a business, so he goes under..

So you cut off your nose to spite your face and now you're whining
about it.

Then you, CW wrote this:
So you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep
the
tight little "club" going to ensure high prices and lack of
competition.

So where am I saying that? Nowhere did I mention that we ensure high
prices and lack of competition. In fact, the opposite is true. because I
get to operate by myself, I can cut my prices because I know I will have
enough business to maintain my business model.

In other words you benefit from lack of competition.

There simply isn't any
room for me to cut my prices further. Which is why I know that if
anybody tried to sell for less than I do, they wouldn't be able to stay
in business, because they would be operating at a loss.

And this is a problem for you because?

And www.issfa.org is an outfit which shares all the best techniques to
produce a better product with less labour so that we can make it even
more affordable to the consumers.

You, sir, are barking up the wrong tree.

It is a combination of my low prices and quality craftsmanship that
keeps my shop going, fuelled by the best advertizing ever: word of
mouth.

Uh huh. Sure.


--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?




--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:56:15 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Georgia Tech '79.

Rookie.

plonkee


Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
counters for a living?

My guess is the freedom to screw up and just maybe make a $ while
doing it.

Lew Hodgett, PE



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0700, Willi
wrote:

I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
for the DIY.


Any products available for the DIY?

Hey Willi-

I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
competing with Granite, I know you can get a granite slab for DIY
applications. Found a place a while back (though I don't have the
link anymore) that will ship you a rough slab (with a finished top)
complete with instructions for machining it using woodworking tools.
(IIRC, it required a circular saw with an abrasive blade installed,
and some masonry bits) Still too expensive for my budget, but it
might be just the ticket for you. Probably find it locally if you've
got a headstone carver near you as well.

Probably have to use a top-mount sink if you go that route, but at
least it's available- and it's really nice.

J. Clarke gurgled:
Look, moron, I don't want to compete with you, [snipped more drivel]

You couldn't compete with me. You don't have the parts. (Double
entendre there, Mr. Clarke.)



In other words you benefit from lack of competition.

Holy cow! He gets it! People benefit from lack of competition. Real or
imagined.


It is a combination of my low prices and quality craftsmanship that
keeps my shop going, fuelled by the best advertizing ever: word of
mouth.

Uh huh. Sure.

Hehehehehe.... gawd, you're easy....

r

Prometheus wrote:


I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
competing with Granite, [snip]

Granite and eStone are more money. The 'direct' competition is in terms
of space.
Something is going to end up on those kitchen and bathroom cabinets.
Being it custom laminate or semiprecious stone, real butcher-block or
stainless steel.
I do not consider post-formed laminate, by the blank, competition; I
don't go there.

The competition is for space and if you look at my web-site, you'll see
that I have those bases covered too. Solid surface is a nice stepping
stone between custom laminate and granite/eStone.

When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.

Maybe Mr, Clarke should look at concrete. That he can buy anywhere,
assuming he doesn't open his mouth first.

r

Can't you feel the love?

On Nov 19, 3:00 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:


Look, moron,

Ohhhhweee.. name calling..John, John, John... what a nasty thing to
do. I normally let that immature behaviour roll off me, but then I
discovered that you are a hypocrite.
Here are two direct quotes from you, John Clarke, on the topic of name
calling:

I see. So you really don't have a clue what the relevance of your
observation might be and so you attempt to mask that ignorance with name
calling. Care to try again?

About what? Expecting people to defend their arguments with reason and
logic rather than simply asserting over and over again "you're wrong" and
when that doesn't work following up with name calling?

That was from May 2004. That also was from a discussion about solid
surface.
What surprises me, is that you didn't learn a single ****ing thing in
these 2 1/2 years. Zip, zilch, nada.

What annoys me most, is that I wasted my time on a troll like you, John
Clarke. Maybe that's all you really wanted, a little attention.

plonk

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ups.com...

For now I am raking in the megabucks and
buying my town, city block by city block. Ordered a new Bentley and a
Gulfstream IV jet as well.
I'm going to paint great big ****ing Corian logos all over them too.


Care to sub out painting those logos? I'm still trying to pay off the kid's
college tuition before I can move on to buying up my town. Can you get the
wings off them Gulfstreams so they'll fit in my garage?

--

-Mike-

On 19 Nov 2006 09:04:05 -0800, "Robatoy" wrote:


Prometheus wrote:


I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
competing with Granite, [snip]

Granite and eStone are more money. The 'direct' competition is in terms
of space.
Something is going to end up on those kitchen and bathroom cabinets.
Being it custom laminate or semiprecious stone, real butcher-block or
stainless steel.
I do not consider post-formed laminate, by the blank, competition; I
don't go there.

Well sure, Rob- but he doesn't want to buy the services of an
installer, and can't buy the product. Looking at a different product
might be the way to go, even if it costs more- I know that if it were
me, I wouldn't hire someone for a DIY job, no matter how much better
that pro may be- so I hope you're not taking it as an attempt to lose
you business.

The competition is for space and if you look at my web-site, you'll see
that I have those bases covered too. Solid surface is a nice stepping
stone between custom laminate and granite/eStone.

When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.

Well, that's good advice, and something I didn't know. But will they
hang it for you to do a test like that?

Maybe Mr, Clarke should look at concrete. That he can buy anywhere,
assuming he doesn't open his mouth first.

r

Can't you feel the love?

Prometheus wrote:
[snip]
When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.

Well, that's good advice, and something I didn't know. But will they
hang it for you to do a test like that?

I suppose. They want you to see the slab before they cut it for you
anyway..soooo.
I have learned to trust my supplier. He doesn't buy bad sheets.
The granite supplier I use, moves all his slabs by grabbing the top
edge with a gripper clamp and overhead crane. A whack of a rubber
mallet gives them a bit of idea what to expect when they
put it down on the beam saw. That transition from vertical to
horizontal always makes them nervous.
So does the thought of a slab coming apart inside the bay of the CNC.
(That thing operates practically under water.)

Willi wrote:
I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
for the DIY.


Any products available for the DIY?

I bought and installed a Swanstone countertop for my bathroom vanity
about 4 years ago. They were willing to sell to anybody, at least at
the time. The material resembles Corian in appearance. I think it has
quartz in it and may be tougher. I didn't have to do any seams or
anything fancy for a bathroom, though I did get the integral sink with
backsplash and I did have to cut it to fit. I cut it with a jigsaw but
a regular jigsaw blade would have no teeth left after cutting about 5
inches. (It would still cut even with rounded over nubs on the blade,
but really slowly.) Note also that the sheet is only 1/4 inch thick
with a thicker edge in front and occasional ribbing. I guess it's
stronger than Corian and doesn't need to be 1/2 inch thick. I'm happy
with the result.

You might also consider installing soapstone which is supposed to be
easily worked with woodworking tools but is less porous than granite.
(No personal experience.)

(I wouldn't put Corian in a kitchen that I was planning to use. It's
too sensitive to heat. My mother-in-law's Corian has a huge crack in
it where a hot pan was set. I heard that the instructions tell you not
to put boiling water in your Corian sink---so how do you drain your
pasta?)

J. Clarke wrote:
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:21:59 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
[snip].
If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a
protected market.

That is *if* you assume that the protection is because of profits and
price.
It is not.
The manufacturers' warranties include fabrication and installation. If
something goes wrong during 10 years (and often beyond), it is covered.
In many cases when the home-owner screws up (a red-hot cast iron frying
pan, for instance) the warranty is still covered as a matter of
courtesy. I have repaired, at no cost to the home-owner, screw ups made
by OTHER bad fabricators who allowed unqualified workers do stupid
things, like cutting out cook-tops with a jigsaw. The manufacturer and
I, collectively, sign up for a decade with the customer.

That's your story. My story is that it's because of profits and price.
If it was because of warranty issues then the manufacturers could easily
sell the product without warranty.

You may not want to accept it, but manufacturers and distributors are
perfectly within their rights to choose their desired method of going
to market. Sure, sure, they are protecting their profits to a degree,
but they are also steering clear of high risk customers. If the product
requires special skills to use/install they avoid a great deal of
trouble (read COST) by restricting sales to a network of professionals.

The typical wrecker is way above average as a do-it-yourselfer and you
have to remember that most people are not like most of us. These
manufacturers are considering the mainstream do-it-yourselfer, whose
skills and experience are way below yours, and worse, way below what he
thinks they are.

So here's the scenario: Jimbo talks Robatoy into selling him a
countertop uninstalled, no warranty. Jimbo gets his countertop home
(probably asked Rob to deliver it because he doesn't have truck) and
starts the install. He exercises Rob's telephone and patience for three
days with questions, requests to borrow tools and finally to come over
and help on Sunday afternoon during the game. Finally, because his
homemade cabinets aren't level the countertop breaks. Jimbo calls Rob
and says "the countertop was defective, it broke". Rob says, "That's
unheard of, they don't break for no reason, and besides, you pestered
me for weeks until I agreed to sell the thing to you with NO WARRANTY".
Jimbo says " You're a liar and a cheat, and I'm going to tell everyone
I know that you're a dishonest businessman". Jimbo then proceeds to use
the power of the internet to unjustly slander Rob's business and the
manufacturer as well. That kind of press could put a small business
under.

This happens all the time in every industry. As a do-it-yourselfer, I
try very hard to learn and use the methods and tools a qualified pro
would use, and I suspect you are the same way. But for every one of us,
there are ten Jimbo's out there.

I'll bet the pros on this board could relate a hundred or more stories
very similar to this one.

wrote:


You may not want to accept it, but manufacturers and distributors are
perfectly within their rights to choose their desired method of going
to market. Sure, sure, they are protecting their profits to a degree,
but they are also steering clear of high risk customers. If the product
requires special skills to use/install they avoid a great deal of
trouble (read COST) by restricting sales to a network of professionals.

The typical wrecker is way above average as a do-it-yourselfer and you
have to remember that most people are not like most of us. These
manufacturers are considering the mainstream do-it-yourselfer, whose
skills and experience are way below yours, and worse, way below what he
thinks they are.

So here's the scenario: Jimbo talks Robatoy into selling him a
countertop uninstalled, no warranty. Jimbo gets his countertop home
(probably asked Rob to deliver it because he doesn't have truck) and
starts the install. He exercises Rob's telephone and patience for three
days with questions, requests to borrow tools and finally to come over
and help on Sunday afternoon during the game. Finally, because his
homemade cabinets aren't level the countertop breaks. Jimbo calls Rob
and says "the countertop was defective, it broke". Rob says, "That's
unheard of, they don't break for no reason, and besides, you pestered
me for weeks until I agreed to sell the thing to you with NO WARRANTY".
Jimbo says " You're a liar and a cheat, and I'm going to tell everyone
I know that you're a dishonest businessman". Jimbo then proceeds to use
the power of the internet to unjustly slander Rob's business and the
manufacturer as well. That kind of press could put a small business
under.

This happens all the time in every industry. As a do-it-yourselfer, I
try very hard to learn and use the methods and tools a qualified pro
would use, and I suspect you are the same way. But for every one of us,
there are ten Jimbo's out there.

I'll bet the pros on this board could relate a hundred or more stories
very similar to this one.

Well put, Tom. Excellent.

Thanks for that.

Rob

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:13:04 -0800, adrian wrote:

Willi wrote:
I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
for the DIY.


Any products available for the DIY?

I bought and installed a Swanstone countertop for my bathroom vanity
about 4 years ago. They were willing to sell to anybody, at least at
the time. The material resembles Corian in appearance. I think it has
quartz in it and may be tougher. I didn't have to do any seams or
anything fancy for a bathroom, though I did get the integral sink with
backsplash and I did have to cut it to fit. I cut it with a jigsaw but
a regular jigsaw blade would have no teeth left after cutting about 5
inches. (It would still cut even with rounded over nubs on the blade,
but really slowly.) Note also that the sheet is only 1/4 inch thick
with a thicker edge in front and occasional ribbing. I guess it's
stronger than Corian and doesn't need to be 1/2 inch thick. I'm happy
with the result.

You might also consider installing soapstone which is supposed to be
easily worked with woodworking tools but is less porous than granite.
(No personal experience.)

(I wouldn't put Corian in a kitchen that I was planning to use. It's
too sensitive to heat. My mother-in-law's Corian has a huge crack in
it where a hot pan was set. I heard that the instructions tell you not
to put boiling water in your Corian sink---so how do you drain your
pasta?)

And considering all the hoops that the authorized installers seem to be
saying that you have to jump through just to keep it from falling apart as
it sits there it must be unbelievably fragile.





--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On 20 Nov 2006 09:53:45 -0800, "Robatoy" wrote:


wrote:


You may not want to accept it, but manufacturers and distributors are
perfectly within their rights to choose their desired method of going
to market. Sure, sure, they are protecting their profits to a degree,
but they are also steering clear of high risk customers. If the product
requires special skills to use/install they avoid a great deal of
trouble (read COST) by restricting sales to a network of professionals.

The typical wrecker is way above average as a do-it-yourselfer and you
have to remember that most people are not like most of us. These
manufacturers are considering the mainstream do-it-yourselfer, whose
skills and experience are way below yours, and worse, way below what he
thinks they are.

So here's the scenario: Jimbo talks Robatoy into selling him a
countertop uninstalled, no warranty. Jimbo gets his countertop home
(probably asked Rob to deliver it because he doesn't have truck) and
starts the install. He exercises Rob's telephone and patience for three
days with questions, requests to borrow tools and finally to come over
and help on Sunday afternoon during the game. Finally, because his
homemade cabinets aren't level the countertop breaks. Jimbo calls Rob
and says "the countertop was defective, it broke". Rob says, "That's
unheard of, they don't break for no reason, and besides, you pestered
me for weeks until I agreed to sell the thing to you with NO WARRANTY".
Jimbo says " You're a liar and a cheat, and I'm going to tell everyone
I know that you're a dishonest businessman". Jimbo then proceeds to use
the power of the internet to unjustly slander Rob's business and the
manufacturer as well. That kind of press could put a small business
under.

This happens all the time in every industry. As a do-it-yourselfer, I
try very hard to learn and use the methods and tools a qualified pro
would use, and I suspect you are the same way. But for every one of us,
there are ten Jimbo's out there.

I'll bet the pros on this board could relate a hundred or more stories
very similar to this one.

Well put, Tom. Excellent.

Thanks for that.

Rob


You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.

Now if I screw it up, how is that going to affect the reputation of
the material? If anything it would improve the status of the pro as a
source for installed countertops. Others would see that the "amateur"
messed up the job in his house, so they better go with a pro. Of
course, I don't see that happening, but whatever.

We are not talking about selling to those that are in the business and
too cheap to go through the liscencing process. We are talking about
people who want to use the stuff in their own homes. So discount to
the liscenced pro and sell at a higher price to the amateur. That's
what everybody else does.

I can walk into the electrical supply house, buy a hundred amp
subpanel, install a feeder breaker in my main, wire to and install
the subpanel, wire as many circuits from it as the code allows, and
the only requirement is that I do it to all to code. How I learn the
code is my business, I don't have to pay Square D a fee for that.
A lot more riding on my doing that right than installing a countertop.

My original contention is the same, they do it to keep the prices up.
Just like Sony refused to allow Beta, a superior format, to be used by
other VCR manufacturers. And when VHS came along, an inferior format,
but available, Beta was history.

Frank

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?


How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
pressure laminate, even mahogany?

bowing back out...

Patriarch

You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.

Now if I screw it up, how is that going to affect the reputation of
the material?

Uhuh... I can hear it now: "it is wonderful material, but because I
overlooked a few small details, I made a mess of my installation. I
really must learn not to be so overconfident of my abilities." " I
suggest you buy a countertop just like the one I screwed up, but have
Rob build it for you this time.
..
..
..
That's a likely scenario, eh?

If anything it would improve the status of the pro as a
source for installed countertops. Others would see that the "amateur"
messed up the job in his house, so they better go with a pro. Of
course, I don't see that happening, but whatever.

*I* DO see that happening. I see that happening to guys who are in the
business. There is always somebody who thinks they know it better/all
and will take a shortcut "because how important can it be." Some of
those work for some of the fabricators. Not for long, mind you, but
they do.

So discount to
the liscenced pro and sell at a higher price to the amateur. That's
what everybody else does.

You got it. I buy a sheet for $ 1000.00 and sell it for $
2000.00...installation is free. PLUS you get the warranty thrown in.



My original contention is the same, they do it to keep the prices up.

In the big urban centres, many fabricators overlap. Competition is
fierce. They're paying big rent, big wages, they need to make a healthy
profit to stay alive. All they need now, is to start talking to some
yokel who doesn't want to pay a fair price, "because he can do it
cheaper himself." And when you tell him to go take a hike, it is called
price-fixing. What I call it, is an unwillingness to spend my time
having to deal with a schmuck who doesn't think I deserve to make a
****ing living. Did you get THAT?

I am pretty passionate about this issue. This doesn't live on the same
plane as woodworking, when a guy can create his own interpretation of
art... a hobby... We're talking about a guy who wants to own a quality
product, but is too cheap to allow a fabricator to send his kid to
camp. Ohhhh... I support that...right.. remove the product from the
cycle that allows a hardworking, loyal qualified fabricator to make a
living. Ya nuts??

It is becoming obvious that everybody wants it, but nobody wants to
pay. Front row seats at an Eagles concert for 25 cents.

If you can't afford an Audi... buy a Volkwagen. Live within your means.

r--- who's pretty much had enough of this thread as it has become
obvious that Voltaire was right.

On 20 Nov 2006 12:34:22 -0800, "Robatoy" wrote:




You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.

Now if I screw it up, how is that going to affect the reputation of
the material?

Uhuh... I can hear it now: "it is wonderful material, but because I
overlooked a few small details, I made a mess of my installation. I
really must learn not to be so overconfident of my abilities." " I
suggest you buy a countertop just like the one I screwed up, but have
Rob build it for you this time.
.
Not hardly. If Rob were in the business and was good at it, he would
be out installing countertops all day instead of posting on
rec.woodworking. After all, he is protected by his supplier so he
should have plenty of business.

Frank

.snipped the rest
.

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:56:41 -0600, Frank Boettcher
wrote:


You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.

No, you are missing the point.

Dupont is interested in the reputation of their installed product.
Dupont is seeking to protect the viability of their brand. You can
buy other solid surfaces, with more or less the same chemistry, but
Dupont doesn't want their brand to get trashed in the market by bozos.

You are asking Coca Cola to sell you the syrup and let you mix it
yourself.

You are asking Rolex to sell you the parts that make up their watch
(including the "Rolex" insignia) and allow you to assemble them
yourself and call it a Rolex.

You are asking Delta to sell you all the parts for a Unisaw (including
the "Unisaw" insignia) so that you can assemble them yourself and call
it a Unisaw.


You do not have the wherewithal to enter into an independent agreement
with Dupont absolving them of any responsibility for your actions.
That won't mean jack **** in the marketplace. What they are selling is
an installed product.


General Residential Warranty Guidelines:

The following warranty applies to you, the owner of a permanent
installation of Corian®, when installed by a DuPont authorized
fabricator/installer and purchased after November 1, 2004 in the
United States and Canada. DuPont, at its option, will repair or
replace, without charge, Corian® product if it fails due to any
manufacturing defect (as determined by an authorized warranty service
agent) during the first 10 years after initial installation, except
for damage caused by physical, chemical or other abuse, damage from
excessive heat, use in certain applications, or acts of nature.


The easiest course of relief is to become a certified fabricator. It
really doesn't cost that much money, or time.

You will be exposed to the knowledge that is absolutely needed to
fabricate and install the product properly.



Dupont does have a commercial warranty that differs from the above.

I'm reasonably sure that you would not qualify for that.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Nov 20, 4:09 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
[snip] " I
suggest you buy a countertop just like the one I screwed up, but have
Rob build it for you this time.
.Not hardly.

If Rob were in the business and was good at it, he would
be out installing countertops all day instead of posting on
rec.woodworking. After all, he is protected by his supplier so he
should have plenty of business.

WTF??? Now I can't have a coffee and spend a few moments on line
rattling your cage?...or Clarke's?

You are running out of ideas here, bro'. And yes, I am very busy. And
no, I won't sell you any material.

It is 7;30 PM.. I just finished my supper, and I am off to the shop
again to get some things ready for tomorrow. I'll check back with you
in 2 1/2 hours when I have my milk and cookies.

btw.. I have to build the countertops before I can install them. I'll
be installing 2 of them Thursday and Firday. IF that's okay with you
Frank.

LOL

r

In article , Tom Watson wrote:

The easiest course of relief is to become a certified fabricator. It
really doesn't cost that much money, or time.

I was told several years ago that DuPont limits the availability of their
certification program to only those fabricators who can guarantee that they
will do so many thousands of dollars worth of solid-surface business per year.
[I don't remember the exact figure, but it had five digits left of the
decimal.] Was I told a story, or is that actually the case?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:53:36 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson wrote:

The easiest course of relief is to become a certified fabricator. It
really doesn't cost that much money, or time.

I was told several years ago that DuPont limits the availability of their
certification program to only those fabricators who can guarantee that they
will do so many thousands of dollars worth of solid-surface business per year.
[I don't remember the exact figure, but it had five digits left of the
decimal.] Was I told a story, or is that actually the case?


I can't speak to the truth of that, Doug.

I got my certification in the early 80's through the regional supply
house.

We went to a seminar for a day, listened to some boring stuff that was
replicated in the printed matter, watched some dude show us the sleds
and such, and then we had lunch.

I have gotten updates ever since but have not gone back to "school".

I was interested in buying a sheet a couple of years ago and the
supplier said that I was still on the buy list, even though I hadn't
done any Corian or Avonite bidness in a long time.

The real deal is, an independent fabricator buys the goods at retail
and he can get the same goods, already fabricated - and installed -
for less money.

Once the guys who were then laminate shops got into the solid surface
stuff, the independent was knocked out because he could not buy the
material at decent prices.

What is interesting to me is that the guys who used to be lam shops
have now become solid surface and granite shops.

Solid surface is way more like granite than it is like lam.

There are still pure lam shops but they are usually devoted to bottom
feeder work. the more interesting lam work is kicked up to the solid
surface/granite shops, because they have the horses.




Rob is way more current than me on this and I would not be unhappy to
have him correct me.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Nov 20, 9:10 pm, Tom Watson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:53:36 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson wrote:

The easiest course of relief is to become a certified fabricator. It
really doesn't cost that much money, or time.

I was told several years ago that DuPont limits the availability of their
certification program to only those fabricators who can guarantee that they
will do so many thousands of dollars worth of solid-surface business per year.
[I don't remember the exact figure, but it had five digits left of the
decimal.] Was I told a story, or is that actually the case?

I can't speak to the truth of that, Doug.

I got my certification in the early 80's through the regional supply
house.

I went to DuPont 'school' for 3 days in Brandywine. Thermoforming etc.
Quite informative. The Canadian distributor sponsored my trip. 4
Colours in both 3/4" and 1/2". I wanted the product to build
loudspeaker boxes.

[snipped for brevity]

Once the guys who were then laminate shops got into the solid surface
stuff, the independent was knocked out because he could not buy the
material at decent prices.

I paid too much for DuPont for a few years, but architects were
starting to spec it, so I kept my 'qualification' current. Then
Wilsonart came upon the scene with a polyester product, soon to it was
replaced by Gibraltar...an acrylic based product. Doing a lot of retail
store interiors, I was always playing with glass, neon, plastics,
laminates, ceramics etc. It was a fit. Many kitchen dealers wanted to
sell those types of countertops. I thought it was an honourable way to
make a buck, so it grew and grew.

What is interesting to me is that the guys who used to be lam shops
have now become solid surface and granite shops.

Same here. But I still do lam.

Solid surface is way more like granite than it is like lam.

Agreed

There are still pure lam shops but they are usually devoted to bottom
feeder work. the more interesting lam work is kicked up to the solid
surface/granite shops, because they have the horses.

Indeed. I don't do post-formed crap either

Rob is way more current than me on this and I would not be unhappy to
have him correct me.

You're still current. I will sell you material..EG

Rob

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?


How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
pressure laminate, even mahogany?

bowing back out...

All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?

My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
purpose other than countertops.

Patriarch



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

In article ,
Frank Boettcher wrote:
...snipped...

You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.



There ARE such sources. Just put "DIY solid surface countertop" in a
google search and you'll find some on the first page returned.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

J. Clarke wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?


How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
pressure laminate, even mahogany?

bowing back out...

All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?

My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
purpose other than countertops.

Patriarch



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

If you need something less than a full sheet, why not visit your local
fabrication shop? I found one locally who sold me a 3' x 5' "scrap"
piece of Corian for $50. It's enough to get me through 2 largeish
projects (router table and kitchen island). At that price, if I need
another piece, I know I'll be going back for more when I need to build
something else. I've been working with my piece for a couple weeks now,
and it's really neat stuff. I still can't get over how heavy it is.

Seriously, if you don't need to finish all your countertops, just call
your local fabrication shop. If you don't know one offhand, call any
kitchen counter shop and ask them who does their countertops for them.
That's what I did, and the scrap I bought was only one of a large
number of pieces just sitting outside in the elements waiting for
someone to buy it up.

Incidentally, for those of you interested in this stuff for turning,
what size is the smallest useful piece for you to use? I may have some
scraps I can give away when I'm done with these projects. I have the
1/2" kind, it's white with greyish specks in it.

-Nathan

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:34:47 -0600, ()
wrote:

In article ,
Frank Boettcher wrote:
...snipped...

You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.



There ARE such sources. Just put "DIY solid surface countertop" in a
google search and you'll find some on the first page returned.

Thanks for the info.

Frank

N Hurst wrote:

If you need something less than a full sheet, why not visit your local
fabrication shop?

Now we're talking. I give away blanks all the time. I sell left-over
vanity-size pieces all the time. Cheap too. Last weekend.. 23" x 38"
Meganite acrylic..wasn't her favourite colour, but for $150.00? I even
glued an edge on for her.... free. Then explained to the husband how to
install it.

If anybody in here wants a blank for a router table, and doesn't care
about the colour... e-mail me.
I'll see what I can do. Shipping may take a while, because I am
spending all my free time needling Frank.

r

On 20 Nov 2006 16:48:08 -0800, "Robatoy" wrote:



On Nov 20, 4:09 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
[snip] " I
suggest you buy a countertop just like the one I screwed up, but have
Rob build it for you this time.
.Not hardly.

If Rob were in the business and was good at it, he would
be out installing countertops all day instead of posting on
rec.woodworking. After all, he is protected by his supplier so he
should have plenty of business.

WTF??? Now I can't have a coffee and spend a few moments on line
rattling your cage?...or Clarke's?

You can do whatever you want.

You are running out of ideas here, bro'. And yes, I am very busy. And
no, I won't sell you any material.

Not running out of ideas. this is a simple disagreement. Nothing I
can add would change your mind, and nothing you could add would change
mine.

And I didn't ask and won't.

It is 7;30 PM.. I just finished my supper, and I am off to the shop
again to get some things ready for tomorrow. I'll check back with you
in 2 1/2 hours when I have my milk and cookies.

btw.. I have to build the countertops before I can install them. I'll
be installing 2 of them Thursday and Firday. IF that's okay with you
Frank.

Good for you, and I don't care what you do.

LOL

r

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:21:44 -0800, N Hurst wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?


How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
pressure laminate, even mahogany?

bowing back out...

All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?

My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
purpose other than countertops.

Patriarch



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

If you need something less than a full sheet, why not visit your local
fabrication shop? I found one locally who sold me a 3' x 5' "scrap"
piece of Corian for $50. It's enough to get me through 2 largeish
projects (router table and kitchen island). At that price, if I need
another piece, I know I'll be going back for more when I need to build
something else. I've been working with my piece for a couple weeks now,
and it's really neat stuff. I still can't get over how heavy it is.

Because now I'm in the position of having to settle for whatever scrap he
has on hand instead of buying what I want.

If you want to make something else that matches your kitchen island and he
doesn't have another scrap of that same stuff available, then what?

Seriously, if you don't need to finish all your countertops, just call
your local fabrication shop. If you don't know one offhand, call any
kitchen counter shop and ask them who does their countertops for them.
That's what I did, and the scrap I bought was only one of a large number
of pieces just sitting outside in the elements waiting for someone to
buy it up.

Incidentally, for those of you interested in this stuff for turning,
what size is the smallest useful piece for you to use? I may have some
scraps I can give away when I'm done with these projects. I have the
1/2" kind, it's white with greyish specks in it.

-Nathan



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:34:47 -0600, lwasserm wrote:

In article ,
Frank Boettcher wrote:
...snipped...

You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced
the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for
those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the
seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the
manufacturer or to any local installers. None.



There ARE such sources. Just put "DIY solid surface countertop" in a
google search and you'll find some on the first page returned.

There are?

Then please provide a link to just one of those suppliers of acrylic solid
surface. There's plenty of polyester available but that's not what we're
talking about.



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

J. Clarke wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:21:44 -0800, N Hurst wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Somebody wrote:

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?


How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
pressure laminate, even mahogany?

bowing back out...

All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?

My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
purpose other than countertops.

Patriarch



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

If you need something less than a full sheet, why not visit your local
fabrication shop? I found one locally who sold me a 3' x 5' "scrap"
piece of Corian for $50. It's enough to get me through 2 largeish
projects (router table and kitchen island). At that price, if I need
another piece, I know I'll be going back for more when I need to build
something else. I've been working with my piece for a couple weeks now,
and it's really neat stuff. I still can't get over how heavy it is.

Because now I'm in the position of having to settle for whatever scrap he
has on hand instead of buying what I want.

If you want to make something else that matches your kitchen island and he
doesn't have another scrap of that same stuff available, then what?

Seriously, if you don't need to finish all your countertops, just call
your local fabrication shop. If you don't know one offhand, call any
kitchen counter shop and ask them who does their countertops for them.
That's what I did, and the scrap I bought was only one of a large number
of pieces just sitting outside in the elements waiting for someone to
buy it up.

Incidentally, for those of you interested in this stuff for turning,
what size is the smallest useful piece for you to use? I may have some
scraps I can give away when I'm done with these projects. I have the
1/2" kind, it's white with greyish specks in it.

-Nathan



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

I'd go down the street to another one and ask them, and so on. If none
of the locals had it, and none of the locals where I have family had
it, I'd try to find something that complemented it. If I knew the guy
well enough, I'd ask for him to let me know when someone else is
getting some counters done in that color and ask to piggyback on their
order or something.

Maybe I'm more easygoing about this kind of stuff than other people,
but I just don't see this as that big a deal.

Anyways, I was just sharing my experience in buying the stuff as an
"outsider." It wasn't difficult, the guy I worked with was friendly and
we both walked away from the deal happier than when we'd entered it. If
it's not the way you want to work, that's fine, but I'm pretty sure
that you'll be able to find something you're content with from a large
enough fab shop.

-Nathan

Frank Boettcher wrote:

Not running out of ideas. this is a simple disagreement. Nothing I
can add would change your mind, and nothing you could add would change
mine.

This is where you're dead wrong. I thrive on other people's points of
view. It is healthy to look at new (to me) ideas. I change my mind all
the time as further info becomes available and conditions change.

Try it, it might work for you too.

r

Robatoy wrote:


I went to DuPont 'school' for 3 days in Brandywine. Thermoforming etc.
Quite informative. The Canadian distributor sponsored my trip. 4
Colours in both 3/4" and 1/2". I wanted the product to build
loudspeaker boxes.

They must have had two different training tracks; one for installers
and one for fabricators.

My one day course must have been for installers only, because I don't
recall any discussion of thermoforming.

My recollection is that we learned how to cut it and join it and do
edge treatments. We were warned about color variations between
batches. We were told how to prep the substrate, openings,
penetrations, etc.

I was prolly using the terms fabricator and installer interchangeably
and incorrectly.

Sorry about that.

So, did you guys just drink for the other two days, or did you learn
something cool?


BTW - by Brandywine, do you mean the DuPont facility in Delaware?
That's about half an hour from where I grew up. So where did I go to
Corian school? New Jersey - about an hour and a half away - go figger.

J. Clarke wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:34:47 -0600, lwasserm wrote:
There ARE such sources. Just put "DIY solid surface countertop" in a
google search and you'll find some on the first page returned.


There are?

Then please provide a link to just one of those suppliers of acrylic solid
surface. There's plenty of polyester available but that's not what we're
talking about.




Lowes, LG-HIMACS:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...brandpage=lghi

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Tom Watson wrote:


They must have had two different training tracks; one for installers
and one for fabricators.

I was in the second group to go through that new training program. It
was located on the property of one of the DuPonts family members. Quite
a spread. Along a river. They fed us royally, as well they should
have-the course was $1500.00. They later split it up into
fabricating/install and MasterCraftsman. I think the latter now deals
with thermoforming, but it was all in one package then.

The other training we received, later, was somewhere on an island. We
were flown there blindfolded. Topics covered were full-contact
competition, price-fixing, intimidation, false advertising and creative
accounting. The Master Marketing Certification included assassination,
arson and explosives. That was taught by Habib Bin Korian himself. The
DSTA (Don't Sell To Assholes) certificate was offered to but a chosen
few. But, as I was Canadian, they quickly realized that with that
certificate, I wouldn't be able to sell to anybody up here. Nothing
like a bit of self-defacating humour here.

I was prolly using the terms fabricator and installer interchangeably
and incorrectly.

AFAIK, the fabricator installs. The big guns have that split up with
shop and road crews, but they all should be able to do the same work.

So, did you guys just drink for the other two days, or did you learn
something cool?

We did some testing on some of the proposals made by some of us who had
a bit of experience.
The TruMatch bit was discussed in great detail and was found to be
considerably stronger than a standard butt-joint. Coved backsplashes
were in vogue at the time, so we wasted a lot of time on those. The
thermoforming was vary basic, making kidney-shaped islands etc.

Suffice it to say, that I wasn't the only scotch drinker in the group.
G


BTW - by Brandywine, do you mean the DuPont facility in Delaware?

The facility was in PA.. close to the border.

That's about half an hour from where I grew up. So where did I go to
Corian school? New Jersey - about an hour and a half away - go figger.

I think I like Brandywine better...I have been to Jersey...LOL
Brandywine is so full of history... stuff that as a Canadian Dutchman I
simply wasn't aware of. I have some knowledge of The Ardennes, Dunkirk,
Somme, Dieppe and European battles like that, but did not know how huge
the American Civil war was. I did visit a few touristy spots, as I am a
culture junky.
That was 20 years ago..I'd like to go back with more time to spend
there. Lovely country down there.

r