I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.

As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
the shelf below the RAS.

Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that online
orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
$70 and $58!

So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from Sears...

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:22:18 GMT, "Tim" wrote:

I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.

As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
the shelf below the RAS.

Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that online
orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
$70 and $58!

So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from Sears...


Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:22:18 GMT, "Tim" wrote:

I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.

As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room
for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it
on
the shelf below the RAS.

Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that
online
orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
$70 and $58!

So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from
Sears...


Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Is that based on personal experience, or just nonsense you have heard?
I have had a craftsman TS and RAS for years and they are both very decent.
These tool seem alright also. Okay, they are not likely to hold up as well
as $250 tools, but they didn't cost $250.

George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-1...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

brian

brianlanning wrote:
George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


Don't be so sure...

I had that (2) copies of that grinder, one via warranty. It was an
unmitigated piece of crap, barely suitable for lawn mower blades. The
speed control failed with barely 10 hours of use, the shafts had runout,
and the tool rests stunk. About the only useable part was the lamp! 8^(

I finally got a used Baldor, now I can grind tools!

George Max wrote:
As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
the shelf below the RAS.


Ordinarily I'm a proponent of buying tools you can grow into since I've ****ed
away so much money in the past buying what I needed for today, only to find it
wasn't enough tool for tomorrow's project. That being said, if that little
miter saw can cut 2X4s, it'll be quite a bit handier to take to the small jobs
around the house than that great big 12" Dewalt I own. Even with its rolling
stand and work supports, it's a horse. I really end up thinking about whether
it's worth my time to set it up for small jobs. He'll do better with his little
one. If the work is bigger, he's no worse off than before... he still has his
RAS.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-1...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower bottom
speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick the
better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted. Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
George Max wrote:
As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room
for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick
it on
the shelf below the RAS.


Ordinarily I'm a proponent of buying tools you can grow into since I've
****ed away so much money in the past buying what I needed for today, only
to find it wasn't enough tool for tomorrow's project. That being said, if
that little miter saw can cut 2X4s, it'll be quite a bit handier to take
to the small jobs around the house than that great big 12" Dewalt I own.
Even with its rolling stand and work supports, it's a horse. I really end
up thinking about whether it's worth my time to set it up for small jobs.
He'll do better with his little one. If the work is bigger, he's no worse
off than before... he still has his RAS.

It will cut 2". And yes, I wanted it in particular because it weighs 16
pounds.

Tim wrote:
"brianlanning" wrote in message
You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats.

It's not jealousy in this case, just a strong hatred for all things
craftsman. Their large tools (like the new table saws) have been
getting better. But they have had many many years of using their good
name to push junk on people. Just ask around about the random height
adjustment feature. I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman. And
that's saying a lot.

On the other hand, there's that new router that's a clone of the bosch.
I have to wonder if it's different or just a rebadge. iirc, the
craftsman is cheaper. I have to wonder why. It may just be marketing,
or maybe not. I would probably just buy the bosch to be sure unless I
could get a major discount on the craftsman.

brian

B A R R Y wrote:
Don't be so sure...

I'm not at all sure. I just grabbed a link from amazon. :-)

I had that (2) copies of that grinder, one via warranty. It was an
unmitigated piece of crap, barely suitable for lawn mower blades. The
speed control failed with barely 10 hours of use, the shafts had runout,
and the tool rests stunk. About the only useable part was the lamp! 8^(
I finally got a used Baldor, now I can grind tools!

But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)

The small delta tools I've had have been hit or miss. The drill press
I have has been great. So was the lunchbox planer. The benchtop
tablesaw was ok for what it was, which wasn't much. The benchtop
bandsaw and jointer were utter garbage. The delta 10" miter saw has
been ok, but hard to adjust and keep adjusted. It likes to deflect on
miter cuts also. It worked flawlessly when I cut all the 2x4s to
finish my basement though. As mortermer said, it's nice to have a
light-weight one around to carry to job sites if you need it. Having
said all that, the 12" PC miter saw is spectacular. I can actually see
myself cutting miters with it.

brian

"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-1...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

brian

The grinder you mention is a 6 inch. Sears has that one for 69.95. (Not
that I would want one)

Max

"brianlanning" wrote

I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman.

Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.

I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas, B&D,
Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

Not too long ago there was a brouhaha in here about a bunch of (economy) 14"
bandsaws. All had their passionate champions and detractors. Funny thing was
that most of the saws being discussed all came off the same line in China:
The only difference was in the logos on the wheel covers.

Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
in ignorance.

Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're on
sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.

_That_ would be true.

Cheers!

Gary

"George Max" wrote

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?

Would a Delta tool be OK if it was free?

A Ryobi?

How about a Bosch? B&D?Freud?

Cheers!

Gary (shaking my head)

Yeah, what he said.....

Tim wrote:

Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower bottom
speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick the
better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted. Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)

They have a jig saw that is identical (at leat externally) to the Bosch.
I am curious if they are the same internally.


brianlanning wrote:

Tim wrote:

"brianlanning" wrote in message
You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats.


It's not jealousy in this case, just a strong hatred for all things
craftsman. Their large tools (like the new table saws) have been
getting better. But they have had many many years of using their good
name to push junk on people. Just ask around about the random height
adjustment feature. I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman. And
that's saying a lot.

On the other hand, there's that new router that's a clone of the bosch.
I have to wonder if it's different or just a rebadge. iirc, the
craftsman is cheaper. I have to wonder why. It may just be marketing,
or maybe not. I would probably just buy the bosch to be sure unless I
could get a major discount on the craftsman.

brian

Mapdude wrote:
They have a jig saw that is identical (at leat externally) to the Bosch.
I am curious if they are the same internally.



I've always wondered what a manufacturer does with the parts that don't
meet their internal quality control spec's. ;-)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

I had a district manager from Sears explain it to me a long time ago when I
worked there as a salesman and later dept. manager. Some are a straight
re-label which usually are there "professional" or "Sears Best" tools. The
ones that offer little savings over the originals. Next are the
re-specified. Look like the nice competitors tools but are half the cost and
a fraction of the quality. Usually these are the "better" quality (LOL) they
push in the ads. Most of the time they are made with junk or poor quality
parts by the original manufactuer. The last is the entry level tools. These
are mostly their design and are made much the same way as the "better" tools
except by a plant they own. The only difference is the power, weight, size,
etc. These are the "good" tools they advertise all the time. Yes some of the
lower quality can be fine. I actually have one of their RO sanders that I
like better than a PC that I just bought.

My random height adjustment router, automatic diagonal cut circ saw, and
tension free band saw from Sears are hardly worth there weight in mud. But
the biscuit joiner, RO sander, 6" bench grinder, and hand held grinder that
I have from them are actually pretty decent. So I guess it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

"Gary" wrote in message
...
"George Max" wrote

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?

Would a Delta tool be OK if it was free?

A Ryobi?

How about a Bosch? B&D?Freud?

Cheers!

Gary (shaking my head)

In article .com,
brianlanning wrote:
...snipped...
But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)

The small delta tools I've had have been hit or miss. The drill press
I have has been great. So was the lunchbox planer. The benchtop
tablesaw was ok for what it was, which wasn't much. The benchtop
bandsaw and jointer were utter garbage. The delta 10" miter saw has
been ok, but hard to adjust and keep adjusted. It likes to deflect on
miter cuts also. It worked flawlessly when I cut all the 2x4s to
finish my basement though. As mortermer said, it's nice to have a
light-weight one around to carry to job sites if you need it. Having
said all that, the 12" PC miter saw is spectacular. I can actually see
myself cutting miters with it.

brian


I don't believe that you will find a decent benchtop bandsaw or
benchtop jointer frim _any_ manufacturer.
--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

On 26 Oct 2006 13:40:09 -0700, "brianlanning"
wrote:

But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)

The small delta tools I've had have been hit or miss. The drill press
I have has been great. So was the lunchbox planer. The benchtop
tablesaw was ok for what it was, which wasn't much. The benchtop
bandsaw and jointer were utter garbage. The delta 10" miter saw has
been ok, but hard to adjust and keep adjusted. It likes to deflect on
miter cuts also. It worked flawlessly when I cut all the 2x4s to
finish my basement though. As mortermer said, it's nice to have a
light-weight one around to carry to job sites if you need it. Having
said all that, the 12" PC miter saw is spectacular. I can actually see
myself cutting miters with it.

One major rule for buying Delta, learned the hard way. If it says
"Shopmaster", it's just a toy with the Delta logo on it, and you will
outgrow it- usually before it's even out of the box. If it says
"Industrial", it's a tool worth owning. True over 80% of the time on
the Delta stuff you'll find in the store these days- if I'd have known
that earlier, it would have saved me several hundred dollars.

On the bright side, the Delta logo counts for enough that even the
Shopmaster line keeps it's value pretty well if you decide to resell
it.

brianlanning wrote:

But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)



Unfortunately, they may originate from the same Chinese factory, right
next to the Harbor Freight and Grizzly assembly line. 8^( At least
Grizzly will stand behind it.

I like my small(er) Delta drill press too! This also goes for my DJ-20,
miter saw, and 12" disc sander.

The Delta 6" variable speed grinder truly seemed like they took the
cheapest Chinese example they could find, painted it gray, and slapped a
Delta name plate on it.

On the other hand, some Craftsman stuff is rebadged good stuff, like the
Crafstman version of the Bosch 1617EVS router. I'm not much of a
gambler, and the service SUCKS (capital!) at my local Sears entities, so
I personally skip all of it. Why deal with the hassle?

Luckily, when I need a burlfurl, I just go to Coastal Tool, run my
sticky fingers over all of the brands of burlfurl, and take the one that
sticks the best up to Wayne at the counter. G If I change my mind on
the way home, I can still go back and swap for the runner-up. Screw
Sears and guessing games! I can always gamble @ Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun
or on Powerball. G

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tim wrote:
"brianlanning" wrote in message
You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats.

It's not jealousy in this case, just a strong hatred for all things
craftsman. Their large tools (like the new table saws) have been
getting better. But they have had many many years of using their good
name to push junk on people. Just ask around about the random height
adjustment feature. I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman. And
that's saying a lot.

On the other hand, there's that new router that's a clone of the bosch.
I have to wonder if it's different or just a rebadge. iirc, the
craftsman is cheaper. I have to wonder why. It may just be marketing,
or maybe not. I would probably just buy the bosch to be sure unless I
could get a major discount on the craftsman.

If it's a "Craftsman Professional" and looks just like a Bosch except for
the colors and the nameplate then it's almost certainly a Bosch. For a
while they were selling a rebadged Bosch jigsaw too.

Nice thing about Sears is that they buy a ton of parts for whatever they
sell and hold onto them until the use up the stock. I can still get parts
for my old radial arm saw, while Bosch USA doesn't even know that the jigsaw
I got at the same time ever existed.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:05:39 GMT, "Tim" wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Is that based on personal experience, or just nonsense you have heard?
I have had a craftsman TS and RAS for years and they are both very decent.
These tool seem alright also. Okay, they are not likely to hold up as well
as $250 tools, but they didn't cost $250.


Personal experience. Althought the 6" jointer was o.k. but I sold it
(too short for my projects). The TS (with webbed cast iron extension
wings) was about to get tossed for accuracy problems, but I ended up
modifying it with a Biesemeyer fence, link belt and steel pulleys.
The cast pullys at the time I replaced them were worn heavily enough
in the V groove that they were near failure.

All the electric hand helds that received any regular use died an
early death. Armatures up in smoke, bad switches, mechanisms that
were more noise than work and so on.

Allow me to qualify what I mean by use - occassional
hobbyist/homeowner use. Not pro.

Also, all my Craftman electric tools were initially bought around 1980
to 1985.

The TS lasted until this past weekend when I sold it. Curiously, it
went to the same guy that bought the jointer. His projects are
smaller. It also replaces a Craftsman TS that's simply gone cow ****.
I guess he's a masochist.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:22:39 GMT, "Tim" wrote:


"brianlanning" wrote in message
roups.com...
George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-1...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower bottom
speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick the
better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted. Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.


You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)


If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.

You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
supplier.

Good deal on the oak. That's nice.

Exercise machines are like that. I run a silent auction at my church
every summer. Most years people are so eager to donate them I have to
decline most of the ones offered. These are things people buy with
the best intentions and then find excercise *really is* hard work.

But the original point is that Sears isn't/hasn't been the best place
to buy power tools. In addition to shoddy quality on most of them,
their customer service is poor.

I especially hate the extended warranty hard sell. My last shop vac
came from Sears. A $50 unit that they tried pushing a $20 warranty
on. I think they're using the warranty to pump up the profit.
Instead of irritating me, why not sell a better built unit that's not
likely to need repair and sell it for a little more? Quality will win
over the long haul. The good word will spread. Then they won't be a
laughingstock.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:06:32 GMT, Nova wrote:

Mapdude wrote:
They have a jig saw that is identical (at leat externally) to the Bosch.
I am curious if they are the same internally.



I've always wondered what a manufacturer does with the parts that don't
meet their internal quality control spec's. ;-)

They get assembled and then badged to sell at Sears.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:58:16 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

"brianlanning" wrote

I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman.

Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.

I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas, B&D,
Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

Not too long ago there was a brouhaha in here about a bunch of (economy) 14"
bandsaws. All had their passionate champions and detractors. Funny thing was
that most of the saws being discussed all came off the same line in China:
The only difference was in the logos on the wheel covers.

Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
in ignorance.

Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're on
sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.

_That_ would be true.

Cheers!

Gary


Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:08:54 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

George Max wrote:
As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
the shelf below the RAS.


Ordinarily I'm a proponent of buying tools you can grow into since I've ****ed
away so much money in the past buying what I needed for today, only to find it
wasn't enough tool for tomorrow's project. That being said, if that little
miter saw can cut 2X4s, it'll be quite a bit handier to take to the small jobs
around the house than that great big 12" Dewalt I own. Even with its rolling
stand and work supports, it's a horse. I really end up thinking about whether
it's worth my time to set it up for small jobs. He'll do better with his little
one. If the work is bigger, he's no worse off than before... he still has his
RAS.


I didn't write what you've quoted, Tim did.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:

it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
honest quality.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:00:36 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

"George Max" wrote

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?

Since you're clueless, they're the ones sold at Sears.


Would a Delta tool be OK if it was free?

Maybe. Maybe not. If it were a DJ-20, definitely If it were their
14" bandsaw, definitely.


A Ryobi?

How about a Bosch? B&D?Freud?

Cheers!

Gary (shaking my head)


Shake your head until you're dizzy. 30 years of my experience says
avoid Sears for power tools. Or nowadays for almost anything.

Time was when Sears was my first choice for everything. Now they're
not my choice for anything.

Poor quality and bad customer service will do that.

Gary wrote:
"brianlanning" wrote
Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.
I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas, B&D,
Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

This is true. Later, I said that I would consider the router that's a
bosch rebadge, but only for a steep discount. Whenever this topic
comes up, I'm reminded of the "alpine" car stereos that were available
in honda civics and accords back in the late 80s/early 90s. They were
alpine in name only. Honda paid for the name, then alpine built them
to honda's standards which were more about economy and warrantees than
sound quality. So when sears rebadges any tool, I have to wonder if
it's really the *exact* same tool just with a red plastic case instead
of a blue one or whatever. The temptation has to be there to put in
cheaper bearings or weaker motors. It's not a bosch after all, right?
It's a craftsman now. But maybe people will assume that it's the same
as the bosch, thereby leaching some brand trust from bosch when it
isn't deserved. So bosch isn't risking anything by making a cheaper
tool for sears. They have plausible deniability. And sears only
stands to gain.

To make matters worse, quality is just a dial that the chinese
factories turn. The saws may all be coming from the same factory, but
they're definitly not built to the same quality. Bearings, paint
thickness, paint job quality, tolerances, whether things are balanced
or not before being put on, de-flashing on the castings. There's a
huge number of steps that can be skipped, corners cut. So not all
brands are created equal, even when coming from the same assembly line.

So it all comes down to trust. Do you trust the store/brand to live up
to an expected level of quality? then do you trust the store to stand
behind the tools when there's a problem?

I would buy a ryobi before a craftsman. Mainly because I wouldn't have
to deal with sears with the ryobi.


Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
in ignorance.

....or maybe experience. And they're changing for the better these days
which makes the situation even cloudier. Since some of the tools are
turing out to be great, while others are still junk. How can you know
which this new tool is?


Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're on
sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.
_That_ would be true.

They're charging less than bosch for what looks like the exact same
router. Is bosch charging even more than too much? Is sears charging
the right amount while bosch is too high? Is it even the exact same
router? It's priced where it will sell. It doesn't matter what we
think. So if the price is too high, that means that the craftsman name
still (unjustifiably) carries a premium, possibly from people
remembering them from 30 years ago.

brian

Luckily, when I need a burlfurl, I just go to Coastal Tool, run my
sticky fingers over all of the brands of burlfurl, and take the one that
sticks the best up to Wayne at the counter. G If I change my mind on
the way home, I can still go back and swap for the runner-up. Screw
Sears and guessing games! I can always gamble @ Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun
or on Powerball. G

This week's Powerball jackpot os $83,000,000. DAMHIKT.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:58:16 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

"brianlanning" wrote

I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman.

Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.

I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas,
B&D,
Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

Not too long ago there was a brouhaha in here about a bunch of (economy)
14"
bandsaws. All had their passionate champions and detractors. Funny thing
was
that most of the saws being discussed all came off the same line in China:
The only difference was in the logos on the wheel covers.

Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
in ignorance.

Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're
on
sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.

_That_ would be true.

Cheers!

Gary


Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.

The trouble with that notion is that changing the design of mass-produced
products is a huge undertaking--the Sears contract would have to be a major
portion of Bosch's total sales for it to be worthwhile to retool to meet
their price. The Chinese, who seem to be doing just about anything to get
presence in the US market, are another story, but it's hard to imagine the
Chinese finding new corners to cut on their tool manufacture.

I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
it to a computer latter on.
Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
paid me $10 to take it.

Okay, tear that one apart.

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...
Gary wrote:
"brianlanning" wrote
Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.
I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas,
B&D,
Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

This is true. Later, I said that I would consider the router that's a
bosch rebadge, but only for a steep discount. Whenever this topic
comes up, I'm reminded of the "alpine" car stereos that were available
in honda civics and accords back in the late 80s/early 90s. They were
alpine in name only. Honda paid for the name, then alpine built them
to honda's standards which were more about economy and warrantees than
sound quality. So when sears rebadges any tool, I have to wonder if
it's really the *exact* same tool just with a red plastic case instead
of a blue one or whatever. The temptation has to be there to put in
cheaper bearings or weaker motors. It's not a bosch after all, right?
It's a craftsman now. But maybe people will assume that it's the same
as the bosch, thereby leaching some brand trust from bosch when it
isn't deserved. So bosch isn't risking anything by making a cheaper
tool for sears. They have plausible deniability. And sears only
stands to gain.

To make matters worse, quality is just a dial that the chinese
factories turn. The saws may all be coming from the same factory, but
they're definitly not built to the same quality. Bearings, paint
thickness, paint job quality, tolerances, whether things are balanced
or not before being put on, de-flashing on the castings. There's a
huge number of steps that can be skipped, corners cut. So not all
brands are created equal, even when coming from the same assembly line.

So it all comes down to trust. Do you trust the store/brand to live up
to an expected level of quality? then do you trust the store to stand
behind the tools when there's a problem?

I would buy a ryobi before a craftsman. Mainly because I wouldn't have
to deal with sears with the ryobi.


Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is
born
in ignorance.

...or maybe experience. And they're changing for the better these days
which makes the situation even cloudier. Since some of the tools are
turing out to be great, while others are still junk. How can you know
which this new tool is?


Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're
on
sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.
_That_ would be true.

They're charging less than bosch for what looks like the exact same
router. Is bosch charging even more than too much? Is sears charging
the right amount while bosch is too high? Is it even the exact same
router? It's priced where it will sell. It doesn't matter what we
think. So if the price is too high, that means that the craftsman name
still (unjustifiably) carries a premium, possibly from people
remembering them from 30 years ago.

Uh, the regular price from Sears is 219.00, the Coastal Tools price on the
Bosch is 209, and Bosch is including a router guide that's worth about 40
bucks. So Sears is not charging less than Bosch unless you're talking
suggested retail on the Bosch or the sale price on the Sears that is only
good through tomorrow.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:08:34 -0500, George Max wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:00:36 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

"George Max" wrote

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?

Since you're clueless, they're the ones sold at Sears.

....or K-Mart....

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:06 GMT, "Tim" wrote:

I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
it to a computer latter on.
Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
paid me $10 to take it.

Okay, tear that one apart.

Get back to us when you actually receive the rebate...

"Tim" wrote in message
...

"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-1...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower
bottom speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I
pick the better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
Hmm. I think I chose correctly.

You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
the first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)


BURRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:22:39 GMT, "Tim" wrote:


"brianlanning" wrote in message
groups.com...
George Max wrote:
Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Va...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-1...6?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower
bottom
speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick
the
better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.


You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)


If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.

You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
supplier.

Good deal on the oak. That's nice.

Exercise machines are like that. I run a silent auction at my church
every summer. Most years people are so eager to donate them I have to
decline most of the ones offered. These are things people buy with
the best intentions and then find excercise *really is* hard work.

But the original point is that Sears isn't/hasn't been the best place
to buy power tools. In addition to shoddy quality on most of them,
their customer service is poor.

I especially hate the extended warranty hard sell. My last shop vac
came from Sears. A $50 unit that they tried pushing a $20 warranty
on. I think they're using the warranty to pump up the profit.
Instead of irritating me, why not sell a better built unit that's not
likely to need repair and sell it for a little more? Quality will win
over the long haul. The good word will spread. Then they won't be a
laughingstock.

Asking if you want an extended warranty isn't "hard sell". If you think it
is you haven't ever _seen_ "hard sell". The last time I encountered "hard
sell" the salesmen didn't back off until Sam Colt became a party to the
negotiation.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:36:08 -0700, pe wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:06 GMT, "Tim" wrote:

I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
it to a computer latter on.
Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
paid me $10 to take it.

Okay, tear that one apart.

Get back to us when you actually receive the rebate...

The best I ever did was back when burnable Cds were just a couple years
old and Fuji offered a rebate on stacks of 50. I managed to 'buy' 10
stacks and I made $20 profit on each stack.
I got 500 cds AND $200.

Sandisk about 2 years ago were offering a $25 rebate on 256 mb cards. I
sent in one rebate form and got 4 checks.

These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
years on computer crap and never received..

Lee Gordon wrote:

This week's Powerball jackpot os $83,000,000. DAMHIKT.

Lee


My wife is in charge of that. The problem is that she only remembers
when the news is covering someone else's winning ticket. G

J. Clarke wrote:

Uh, the regular price from Sears is 219.00, the Coastal Tools price on the
Bosch is 209, and Bosch is including a router guide that's worth about 40
bucks. So Sears is not charging less than Bosch unless you're talking
suggested retail on the Bosch or the sale price on the Sears that is only
good through tomorrow.

Not to mention that Coastal is way more fun to visit than any Sears I've
ever seen.