J. Clarke wrote:
Uh, the regular price from Sears is 219.00, the Coastal Tools price on the
Bosch is 209, and Bosch is including a router guide that's worth about 40
bucks. So Sears is not charging less than Bosch unless you're talking
suggested retail on the Bosch or the sale price on the Sears that is only
good through tomorrow.

The last time I checked (maybe a year ago), sears was about $30 or $40
less than other places.

brian

pe wrote:
These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
years on computer crap and never received..

My favorite one was about seven or eight years ago. Some popular
retail computer site, I can't remember the url now
something-online.com. It was bought out by egghead or someone similar.
So they went on this huge liquidation sale. They used an online
auction to unload everything. But there wasn't enough people who knew
about it. So all sorts of software was going for $1 or $2, things that
should have been a lot more. I ended up buying some server backup
software similar to ghost for $10. When I received it, I discovered a
few things. First, it was novell only, so I couldn't use it. Second,
it normally went for about $1000 retail (i didn't know). Third, there
was a $200 rebate in it. I ended up getting the rebate.

brian

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.

Well, I could use the RAS I mentioned.

You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)


If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.

I am in the middle of 100 acres of oak/maple/cherry. Sure do.

You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
supplier.

I have three jumps, and just thought it was a nice knickknack; never planned
to use it. Selling it for a 2000% profit was serendipidy.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:36:08 -0700, pe wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:06 GMT, "Tim" wrote:

I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then
feed
it to a computer latter on.
Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate.
They
paid me $10 to take it.

Okay, tear that one apart.

Get back to us when you actually receive the rebate...

The best I ever did was back when burnable Cds were just a couple years
old and Fuji offered a rebate on stacks of 50. I managed to 'buy' 10
stacks and I made $20 profit on each stack.
I got 500 cds AND $200.

Sandisk about 2 years ago were offering a $25 rebate on 256 mb cards. I
sent in one rebate form and got 4 checks.

These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
years on computer crap and never received..

I've never not gotten a rebate. Sometimes they were more trouble than they
were worth, but I always get them. I'm funny like that.

pe wrote:
These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
years on computer crap and never received..

My favorite one was about seven or eight years ago. Some popular
retail computer site, I can't remember the url now
something-online.com. It was bought out by egghead or someone similar.
So they went on this huge liquidation sale. They used an online
auction to unload everything. But there wasn't enough people who knew
about it. So all sorts of software was going for $1 or $2, things that
should have been a lot more. I ended up buying some server backup
software similar to ghost for $10. When I received it, I discovered a
few things. First, it was novell only, so I couldn't use it. Second,
it normally went for about $1000 retail (i didn't know). Third, there
was a $200 rebate in it. I ended up getting the rebate.

brian

pe wrote:
These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
years on computer crap and never received..

My favorite one was about seven or eight years ago. Some popular
retail computer site, I can't remember the url now
something-online.com. It was bought out by egghead or someone similar.
So they went on this huge liquidation sale. They used an online
auction to unload everything. But there wasn't enough people who knew
about it. So all sorts of software was going for $1 or $2, things that
should have been a lot more. I ended up buying some server backup
software similar to ghost for $10. When I received it, I discovered a
few things. First, it was novell only, so I couldn't use it. Second,
it normally went for about $1000 retail (i didn't know). Third, there
was a $200 rebate in it. I ended up getting the rebate.

brian

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:09:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message


Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.

The trouble with that notion is that changing the design of mass-produced
products is a huge undertaking--the Sears contract would have to be a major
portion of Bosch's total sales for it to be worthwhile to retool to meet
their price. The Chinese, who seem to be doing just about anything to get
presence in the US market, are another story, but it's hard to imagine the
Chinese finding new corners to cut on their tool manufacture.


Grin

It is hard to image what new corners could be cut if you think of
making the most bottom of the barrel product possible. But that's not
what has to be done. If Craftsman/Sears were to use the illusion of
selling a tool that *looks* like a Bosch/PC/Milwaukee, then one only
need to make one just like it inside and out, except make the
appropriate substitutions.

I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:39:17 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message

I especially hate the extended warranty hard sell. My last shop vac
came from Sears. A $50 unit that they tried pushing a $20 warranty
on. I think they're using the warranty to pump up the profit.
Instead of irritating me, why not sell a better built unit that's not
likely to need repair and sell it for a little more? Quality will win
over the long haul. The good word will spread. Then they won't be a
laughingstock.

Asking if you want an extended warranty isn't "hard sell". If you think it
is you haven't ever _seen_ "hard sell". The last time I encountered "hard
sell" the salesmen didn't back off until Sam Colt became a party to the
negotiation.


Sam Colt as a negotiation tool. Funny.

We're talking Sears, not Guido & Co. with the truckload of hot washing
machines.

In my experience they're doing a little more than asking. Maybe
that's initiative on the part of the droid operating the cash
register.

Craftsman bashing is the in thing here. Some have had experience, most are
just "me too" types.

"Tim" wrote in message
...
Is that based on personal experience, or just nonsense you have heard?
I have had a craftsman TS and RAS for years and they are both very decent.
These tool seem alright also. Okay, they are not likely to hold up as
well
as $250 tools, but they didn't cost $250.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:36:58 GMT, "Tim" wrote:


The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.

Well, I could use the RAS I mentioned.

Yes


You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)


If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.

I am in the middle of 100 acres of oak/maple/cherry. Sure do.

That's nice. Any plans on converting any of that to lumber?


You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
supplier.

I have three jumps, and just thought it was a nice knickknack; never planned
to use it. Selling it for a 2000% profit was serendipidy.


I'll say that's good luck for you. I really hope the buyer knows what
he's doing and inspects it thoroughly before using.

I used to scuba dive. Skydiving is just too much. If my tank ran out
of air, I could still make it to the surface. Probably. If my
parachute didn't open, well, I can't get back on the plane. Houston,
I have a problem.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:

it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
honest quality.


Hence why I said some....

I had a recip saw from Makita that broke 2 inches into the first cut.
Fustrated, I took it back and exchanged it. It lasted about 6 months of use
(light duty) then came time for some heavy use when the end of it exploded
in my hand. A trip to the ER and OR fixed my hand but for some reason they
were quick to settle before it turned into a lawsuit. And yes it was the
same thing that broke the second time taking more of the saw with it this
time.

Then to boot I had an older Makita drill that lasted through a lot of
heavy use. Broke the day the doctor let me back into the shop and all I was
doing was drilling a 1/4" hole through some pine.

But my dad swears by there circ saws.

Allen

"Tim" writes:

I've never not gotten a rebate. Sometimes they were more trouble than they
were worth, but I always get them. I'm funny like that.

I once bought a can of compressed air (for cleaning keyboards) from
CompUSA. I had to send them the UPC symbol can to get the
rebate.

It was printed on the metal of the can itself.

I made a copy, and told them in a note that I'd have to cut the metal
from the can (making the compressed air useless) to get the real UPC.

They rejected my rebate. I was pssssssssssssssssssssst.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:45:09 -0500, George Max wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:22:18 GMT, "Tim" wrote:

I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.

As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
the shelf below the RAS.

Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that online
orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
$70 and $58!

So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from Sears...


Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

Not exactly true, that. I've got some really nice tools from Sears in
the past. They're all hand tools, but I wouldn't trade the chisels I
bought there for anything else. Ditto for the dovetail saw, and a few
other smaller items.

All of them have Craftsman logos, and they're all very nice. Couldn't
say about the power tools, as there has always been a more attractive
option elsewhere.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:04:19 -0500, George Max wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:

it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
honest quality.

Makita belt-sanders are awfully nice as well. Tried one head-to-head
against a Porter Cable, and the Makita was the better tool by far.
Same guy who had the sander swore by the 2.6amp cordless drill as
well.

"CW" wrote

Craftsman bashing is the in thing here. Some have had
experience, most are just "me too" types.

It would seem so

I honestly don't give a crappe one way or the other... I guess my problem is
with predjudice in any form (shrug)

I have Craftsman, DeWalt, Delta, Freud, Ridgid, and Ryobi power tools. Oh,
and a B&D belt sander.... I buy whatever goes on sale (big-time sale, I
mean) because I know that, by and large, there isn't much difference:
They're either made in a place with good Quality Control and are expensive,
or made in a place with poor Quality Control and are cheap. The rest is
pretty much fluff.

As for hand tools, I used to be a Snap-On snob, but I fortunately grew out
of that. In these days of no-questions-asked lifetime guarantees and most of
the stuff coming from the same couple of manufactures anyway, paying for the
Big Name is plain stoopit. Er, IMHO

Cheers!

Gary

A number of people I know have bought used parachutes. The first thing they
do is to have it inspected by a licensed rigger. In any case, if it fails,
they do have a reserve. The skydiving crowd tends to be a little crazy
though. They do jump with some strange stuff at times.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
I'll say that's good luck for you. I really hope the buyer knows what
he's doing and inspects it thoroughly before using.

I used to scuba dive. Skydiving is just too much. If my tank ran out
of air, I could still make it to the surface. Probably. If my
parachute didn't open, well, I can't get back on the plane. Houston,
I have a problem.

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...

The last time I checked (maybe a year ago), sears was about $30 or $40
less than other places.

I caught it (Bosch/Craftsman router) on sale about a year ago for $179, then
got a Craftsman club 10% off of that, then another (Sears retiree) 10% off
of that.

PS, No! I did not get the extended warranty.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:09:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message


Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.

The trouble with that notion is that changing the design of mass-produced
products is a huge undertaking--the Sears contract would have to be a
major
portion of Bosch's total sales for it to be worthwhile to retool to meet
their price. The Chinese, who seem to be doing just about anything to get
presence in the US market, are another story, but it's hard to imagine the
Chinese finding new corners to cut on their tool manufacture.


Grin

It is hard to image what new corners could be cut if you think of
making the most bottom of the barrel product possible. But that's not
what has to be done. If Craftsman/Sears were to use the illusion of
selling a tool that *looks* like a Bosch/PC/Milwaukee, then one only
need to make one just like it inside and out, except make the
appropriate substitutions.

I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by the
retooling.

It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular production.

Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design changes
in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has very
significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about anything
is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.

"CW" wrote in message
link.net...

most are just "me too" types.

That's the most intelligent statement I've seen in this thread. RM~

most are just "me too" types.

That's the most intelligent statement I've seen in this thread. RM~

Me too.


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:32:13 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

"CW" wrote

Craftsman bashing is the in thing here. Some have had
experience, most are just "me too" types.

It would seem so

I honestly don't give a crappe one way or the other... I guess my problem is
with predjudice in any form (shrug)

I have Craftsman, DeWalt, Delta, Freud, Ridgid, and Ryobi power tools. Oh,
and a B&D belt sander.... I buy whatever goes on sale (big-time sale, I
mean) because I know that, by and large, there isn't much difference:
They're either made in a place with good Quality Control and are expensive,
or made in a place with poor Quality Control and are cheap. The rest is
pretty much fluff.

As for hand tools, I used to be a Snap-On snob, but I fortunately grew out
of that. In these days of no-questions-asked lifetime guarantees and most of
the stuff coming from the same couple of manufactures anyway, paying for the
Big Name is plain stoopit. Er, IMHO

Cheers!

Gary


Buying solely on price doesn't make much sense either. There really
is a reason a Big Name became a big name. And I don't mean hype. I
mean they perform well.

There are many reasons for buying one thing instead of another but
lets face facts - some brands/tools that cost more are that way
because they really are a superior product.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:13:46 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by the
retooling.

It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular production.

Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design changes
in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has very
significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about anything
is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.


You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:43:28 GMT, "CW" wrote:

A number of people I know have bought used parachutes. The first thing they
do is to have it inspected by a licensed rigger. In any case, if it fails,
they do have a reserve. The skydiving crowd tends to be a little crazy
though. They do jump with some strange stuff at times.


That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they take
more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is it even
possible to take 3?

And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
from perfectly good airplanes.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:43:02 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:

it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
honest quality.


Hence why I said some....

I had a recip saw from Makita that broke 2 inches into the first cut.
Fustrated, I took it back and exchanged it. It lasted about 6 months of use
(light duty) then came time for some heavy use when the end of it exploded
in my hand. A trip to the ER and OR fixed my hand but for some reason they
were quick to settle before it turned into a lawsuit. And yes it was the
same thing that broke the second time taking more of the saw with it this
time.

Then to boot I had an older Makita drill that lasted through a lot of
heavy use. Broke the day the doctor let me back into the shop and all I was
doing was drilling a 1/4" hole through some pine.

But my dad swears by there circ saws.

Allen


Wow. an exploding reciprocating saw.

I hope your injuries weren't permanent.

It seems a flat out honest thing to say that no manufacturer makes the
best in each category of tool.

Hence the endless posts about is this blurfl any good?

It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must be
inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the main
"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been carried by
jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more likely to
be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving. Modern
designs are quite reliable.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:43:28 GMT, "CW" wrote:
That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they take
more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is it even
possible to take 3?

And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
from perfectly good airplanes.

If the jumper_intends_ to cut away his main parachute(and that is
fun!), then they are required to wear a third parachute per FAA
regulations. The container/harness system is modified or built with "D"
rings on the front to accept the third deployment system. Tom
George Max wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:43:28 GMT, "CW" wrote:

A number of people I know have bought used parachutes. The first thing they
do is to have it inspected by a licensed rigger. In any case, if it fails,
they do have a reserve. The skydiving crowd tends to be a little crazy
though. They do jump with some strange stuff at times.


That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they take
more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is it even
possible to take 3?

And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
from perfectly good airplanes.

George Max (in ) said:

| That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they
| take more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is
| it even possible to take 3?

It's possible - but the question is really: Once you've determined
that the current chute is not going to do the job, how much time is
available to deploy the next? From "Beautiful Streamer" (US
paratrooper's lullabye): "Time is elapsing - and here is the ground."

There's always the inclination to attempt to correct any problem with
the currently deployed canopy before releasing it and trying the
reserve...

| And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
| from perfectly good airplanes.

Ok.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

They are permanent. I get to look at the scars everyday...and not be able to
make a complete fist as well...

Allen


"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:43:02 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy"
wrote:

it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
honest quality.


Hence why I said some....

I had a recip saw from Makita that broke 2 inches into the first cut.
Fustrated, I took it back and exchanged it. It lasted about 6 months of
use
(light duty) then came time for some heavy use when the end of it exploded
in my hand. A trip to the ER and OR fixed my hand but for some reason they
were quick to settle before it turned into a lawsuit. And yes it was the
same thing that broke the second time taking more of the saw with it this
time.

Then to boot I had an older Makita drill that lasted through a lot of
heavy use. Broke the day the doctor let me back into the shop and all I
was
doing was drilling a 1/4" hole through some pine.

But my dad swears by there circ saws.

Allen


Wow. an exploding reciprocating saw.

I hope your injuries weren't permanent.

It seems a flat out honest thing to say that no manufacturer makes the
best in each category of tool.

Hence the endless posts about is this blurfl any good?

"George Max" wrote

You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If I may, I think you have to put what he said in context.

Consider a factory in China pumping out billions of identical tools:
Everything is pretty much the same except for the colour of the plastic and
the badge they stick on them before they're boxed.

I agree that it would be far more expensive to retool the line in order to
"cheapen" something for (in this example) Sears, than it would be to just
keep the line going.

We're talking mass production here, and the *real* savings are in the "mass"
part: It make no sense to create a different product to make it cheaper:
They're already smokin' them out the door as cheaply as possible.

Cheers!

Gary

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:13:46 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by
the
retooling.

It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular
production.

Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design
changes
in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has
very
significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about
anything
is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.


You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If your company makes "thousands" you're probably using NC machines. That's
semicustom manufacture. Get to real high volume and you'll find that
purpose-made tooling is used, the changing of which isn't cheap.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:24:53 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

"George Max" wrote

You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If I may, I think you have to put what he said in context.

Consider a factory in China pumping out billions of identical tools:
Everything is pretty much the same except for the colour of the plastic and
the badge they stick on them before they're boxed.

I agree that it would be far more expensive to retool the line in order to
"cheapen" something for (in this example) Sears, than it would be to just
keep the line going.

We're talking mass production here, and the *real* savings are in the "mass"
part: It make no sense to create a different product to make it cheaper:
They're already smokin' them out the door as cheaply as possible.

Cheers!

Gary


The changes I mean are not in changing the form of a housing for
example, that *is* difficult and time consuming to do.

What I mean (for example) is to buy a group of motors from the motor
supplier that use sleeve bearings instead of ball bearings. Or use
less expensive batteries. Maybe use more regrind in the plastic. Or
simply pack fewer accessories.

That's what I mean. From my design end of the process, there are a
lot of things to do.

However, I work at a place that doesn't make bottom of the barrel
products, so it's obvious to me how to help them get there.

I will agree to a point with my last paragraph:

Of course if the starting point of the product being debated is
*already* at the bottom, then it would take a little more ingenuity to
wring even more savings from it, and that may not be worth the effort.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" wrote:

It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must be
inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the main
"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been carried by
jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more likely to
be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving. Modern
designs are quite reliable.


Reliable - good to know.

I learn something new every day.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:11:09 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

George Max (in ) said:

| That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they
| take more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is
| it even possible to take 3?

It's possible - but the question is really: Once you've determined
that the current chute is not going to do the job, how much time is
available to deploy the next? From "Beautiful Streamer" (US
paratrooper's lullabye): "Time is elapsing - and here is the ground."

There's always the inclination to attempt to correct any problem with
the currently deployed canopy before releasing it and trying the
reserve...


I thought about that while I was writing. Is there enough time to
deploy a 2nd or 3rd or..... That ground is rush up mighty fast.

George Max (in ) said:

| On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:11:09 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| George Max (in ) said:
||
||| That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they
||| take more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2?
||| Is it even possible to take 3?
||
|| It's possible - but the question is really: Once you've determined
|| that the current chute is not going to do the job, how much time is
|| available to deploy the next? From "Beautiful Streamer" (US
|| paratrooper's lullabye): "Time is elapsing - and here is the
|| ground."
||
|| There's always the inclination to attempt to correct any problem
|| with the currently deployed canopy before releasing it and trying
|| the reserve...
|
| I thought about that while I was writing. Is there enough time to
| deploy a 2nd or 3rd or..... That ground is rush up mighty fast.

That pretty much depends on the jump. From 1200' (normal altitude for
military training jumps) there's plenty of time to open and shake out
a reserve chute. On a 300' combat jump a reserve would just be extra
baggage since a normal inflation can eat up to 200' of altitude.

I would guess that if the main canopy were deployed at 2000' or above,
there'd be time to try two more chutes. Nonetheless, any person who
has accumulated sufficient bad karma should probably stay on the
ground...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:20:31 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:13:46 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by
the
retooling.

It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular
production.

Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design
changes
in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has
very
significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about
anything
is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.


You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If your company makes "thousands" you're probably using NC machines. That's
semicustom manufacture. Get to real high volume and you'll find that
purpose-made tooling is used, the changing of which isn't cheap.


We do nothing of the kind. Our stuff is put together pretty much the
same as any power tool.

Trust me, there are plenty of things to do to save money. This is
what they pay me for - be imaginitive.

"George Max" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:20:31 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


"George Max" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:13:46 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by
the
retooling.

It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the
run,
and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular
production.

Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design
changes
in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has
very
significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about
anything
is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.


You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If your company makes "thousands" you're probably using NC machines.
That's
semicustom manufacture. Get to real high volume and you'll find that
purpose-made tooling is used, the changing of which isn't cheap.


We do nothing of the kind. Our stuff is put together pretty much the
same as any power tool.

I'm having difficulty believing that you are using custom-made machinery for
such small volumes.

Trust me, there are plenty of things to do to save money. This is
what they pay me for - be imaginitive.

Uh huh. Whatever.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:09:11 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



Trust me, there are plenty of things to do to save money. This is
what they pay me for - be imaginitive.

Uh huh. Whatever.


I have several patents. How many do you have?

Most people outgrew that kind of comeback about age 12. Looking to blow your
credibility? You succeeded.

"George Max" wrote in message
...


I have several patents. How many do you have?

George, I'd forget about the "FCC" part, as CW meant "FAA". Tom
George Max wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" wrote:

It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must be
inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the main
"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been carried by
jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more likely to
be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving. Modern
designs are quite reliable.


Reliable - good to know.

I learn something new every day.

Yep, it's one of them F words
I'm also a HAM. Radio on the brain.

"tom" wrote in message
ups.com...
George, I'd forget about the "FCC" part, as CW meant "FAA". Tom
George Max wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" wrote:

It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must
be
inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the
main
"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been
carried by
jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more
likely to
be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving.
Modern
designs are quite reliable.


Reliable - good to know.

I learn something new every day.