"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:jYm%g.14271

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more comfortable
without
the guard than with it?

I'd guess that some feel more comfortable when they can see the blade as
compared to a guard that partially obscures seeing the whole blade.

(Doug Miller) writes:

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more
comfortable without the guard than with it?

I didn't make the post, but I can see the point.

I'm a hobbyist. When I use the saw I
1) Take my time and don't rush
2) Use fingerboards/sleds/etcs so my hands never get within a
foot of the blade
3) Keep my eye on the blade, especially when it's spinning.

I tend to turn off the saw when I'm done with a cut. Not very
efficient, but I feel comfortable with this.

But while that blade is spinning, I'm watching it.

If it had a guard, I might take my eyes off it, and forget about the
blade. So the guard might make me more comfortable, and less cautious.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I've never used a guard, but I bought a new saw recently and thought I'd
at
least try using the guard. Well, after two cuts or so, the guard was
removed, and there it sits. As in the past, I felt more comfortable
without
it.
That said, I really want to find a blade guard that works. It seems there
are so many different styles of guard out there, that one shouldn't have
any
excuse why they're not using something! Anyway, I recently acquired an
Excalibur overhead guard and just got it installed yesterday. I haven't
tried it out in use yet, but I do like that the guard can be moved out of
the way and returned easily without removing it from the saw. This is a
step in the right direction for me - being able to keep the guard attached
to the saw means I'm more likely to use it! --dave



Likewise, I've never owned a table saw with a guard, so I don't use a guard.
That said, my miter saw came with a guard and I have no philosophical or
practical problem with it in place. Since I've never had a blade guard,
I've come to look at my table saw in the same manner that I look at my chain
saw or my circular saw. All of them have exposed business ends and require
a certain attention on the part of the operator.

Contrary to the alarmist voices, it is no more a matter of "when" than any
other equally harmful accident is. The presence or absence of a guard in no
way affects "when" anything will happen. In fact assuming that the guard
affects "when" is probably a more dangerous position. Pay attention to the
irrevocable laws about saw safety as they relate to the physics of things
and you are far more likely to avoid an accident than by relying on the
false security of a guard. A guard will not protect against bad cutting
practices and trusting in devices like this may well be the very downfall of
what one trusts as a safe program.

I would not have any philosophical or practical issue with a guard on my
table saw, if it had one. As it is, I have always known a table saw to be a
tool with a pretty significant business end and have approached the use of
it as a tool accordingly - just like my chainsaw and my circular saw. It
becomes the way you view the tool. You approach it with more than respect,
you approach it with a knowldege and a certainty of what the blade can do.
It's simply the way it is.

--

-Mike-

"Upscale" wrote in message

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more comfortable
without
the guard than with it?

I'd guess that some feel more comfortable when they can see the blade as
compared to a guard that partially obscures seeing the whole blade.

Never quite understood that rationale (or attempt at rationale). It's been
years since I've seen a blade guard that wasn't see-through. I've had four
different guards on two saws in 20 years and I've never had a bit of trouble
"seeing the blade" with any of the guards.

Whatever the rationale not to use a guard, and the choice is certainly
their's to not do so, my bet is that it boils down to simply a matter of
convenience, or lack thereof.

The Uniguard I use is "convenient" most of the time ... the time's it's not
is when I find myself tempted to "just leave it off for this one cut".

At that point it boils down to a matter of common sense and discipline ... a
combination that always seems to be in short supply.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/06

"Swingman" wrote in message

Never quite understood that rationale (or attempt at rationale). It's been
years since I've seen a blade guard that wasn't see-through. I've had four
different guards on two saws in 20 years and I've never had a bit of
trouble
"seeing the blade" with any of the guards.

Yeah, but as you know, it's not as perfectly visible as no blade guard. I
suspect that most (all) tablesaw accidents start with the "who me, I don't
make stupid mistakes like that" thought before the inevitable happens.

"Swingman" wrote in message
news

Never quite understood that rationale (or attempt at rationale). It's been
years since I've seen a blade guard that wasn't see-through. I've had four
different guards on two saws in 20 years and I've never had a bit of
trouble
"seeing the blade" with any of the guards.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Though the only saw I own with a guard is
my miter, I have never lacked for clear visibility owing to the guard.

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:15:41 GMT, zap wrote:

Well My Friend, There are some who can, and will, learn by what others
have experienced, but there are always some who insist on learning the
hard way, insisting that they just have to do it their way.

Every one of us who got cut up on a saw, or banged up on a motorcycle
was sure that it would not happen to us, we were just too good and
careful.

Hardly a fair comparison because there's a lot not in your control
(e.g. other drivers) when you're on a bike.


Have fun in the Emergency Room of the hospital, and when you come out,
please write and tell us about your blade guard and if it is still on
your shelf gathering dust.

I myself have no problem with you leaving your blade guard off, It's not
my fingers that will be gone, it will be like my son who lost his finger
just that way. Thought he could work faster without the blade guard, but
now is slower just because he is trying to make the other fingers (which
were damaged) still work. Well you have had enough warnings, now go
ahead and have your accident. It's your privilage to do so.


I have the utmost respect for the tablesaw anytime I have it running.
Take a lot of care to keep fingers and such away from spinning blade
and never rush. It's an imposing tool so it's hard to forget the
respect part.

Use push sticks and such.

Sure, there's always a chance an accident could happen, but it's more
likely to be something other than "accidentally" sticking my hand in
the blade.

My couple cents...

Renata


Zap

CW wrote:
"zap" wrote in message
link.net...

The first time that you put your finger or hand into the spinning blade,
it will make a lifelong believer of you to use that blade guard.

I was a young and stupid teenager when I did it, and the only thing that
saved me, and only left me with a scar, was that I had just as stupidly
put the blade on backward.


The sure way not to get cut is not to stick your hand in the blade.

Remember this, it is not a question of IF, it is a question of WHEN!!!


For you, maybe.

Warning- I am biased- I manufacture a safety tool for ripping.

But you shoud really know- there is a better way to rip wood than using
your fingers.

I have ripped over 5 million linear feet of thin, knotty, warped, and
cupped lumber over the last 15 years at woodworking shows without
kickbacks or fingers near the blade.
I get to see the short fingers for three days per weekend at
woodworking shows. A question I ask is "Has anyone in this group (of
10 or so) tangled with a tablesaw?" Almost always someone has.
Usually the fingers have been sewed up or back on, but do not work as
well anymore.

The key to finger safety when ripping or dadoing is to use something
other than your fingers to hold the wood against the fence, down (both
before and after the blade), and use something other than your fingers
to push the wood by the blade.

Question:
How often do you use a featherboard instead of your fingers?
The reason you don't is that clamped feather boards take too long
to clamp in place and remove. You use them only when you have to.

The solution is a magnetic featherboard or roller feeder that sets up
with one hand, as quick as putting your fingers there- Something you
actually use. It exists- and 250,000 table saw owners use it on every
rip, and jointer cut.

I apologize for the rant, but I have seen too many short fingers to
keep quiet.

Jerry Jaksha
http:// www.grip-tite.com

PS: we are giving away 25 Grip-Tites to public school shop programs
this fall- please tell any shop teachers you know about this.


Samson wrote:
I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

In article , "Upscale" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:jYm%g.14271

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more comfortable without
the guard than with it?

I'd guess that some feel more comfortable when they can see the blade as
compared to a guard that partially obscures seeing the whole blade.

I've heard people say that before, and could never understand it -- why the
heck does anyone "need" to see the blade on a table saw during a cut??

Band saw or scroll saw, sure -- it's awful tough to make a freehand cut if you
can't see where you're cutting, but nobody with any sense makes freehand cuts
on a table saw.

So what purpose does it serve to be able to see the blade on a table saw while
you're cutting? Proper cutting technique on a table saw means using a guide of
some sort, be it a rip fence, tenoning jig, miter gauge, crosscut sled, or
whatever. Once you set the guide and place the wood against it, the blade is
gonna cut where it's gonna cut, whether you can see it or not. Any adjustment
that may be needed (checking blade height against the thickness of the wood,
or aligning a pencil mark left-right against the blade, for instance) can, and
should, be done with the blade *stopped*. Once the saw haw been started,
though, what possible reason is there to see the blade?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Bruce Barnett wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more
comfortable without the guard than with it?

I didn't make the post, but I can see the point.

I'm a hobbyist. When I use the saw I
1) Take my time and don't rush

Safety Rule Number One, for any power tool. For most hand tools, too, for that
matter.

2) Use fingerboards/sleds/etcs so my hands never get within a
foot of the blade

Another good idea, although a foot is perhaps a bit overcautious IMO.

3) Keep my eye on the blade, especially when it's spinning.

Why? What's it gonna do?

I tend to turn off the saw when I'm done with a cut. Not very
efficient, but I feel comfortable with this.

It's excellent safety practice, in my opinion. And the impact on "efficiency"
is very, very minor. I've timed my saw: it goes from stopped to full speed in
much less than one second, and when switched off, coasts to a complete stop in
less than ten.

But while that blade is spinning, I'm watching it.

WHY? What's it gonna do?

If it had a guard, I might take my eyes off it, and forget about the
blade. So the guard might make me more comfortable, and less cautious.

Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. You don't need to see the blade
in the first place, so taking your eyes off of it doesn't matter. You don't
(or at least shouldn't) need to be able to see the blade in order to remember
that it's there, and that it's dangerous. You don't need to see it in order to
make a proper cut, because the cut path is determined by the setting of your
rip fence, miter gauge, or whatever you're using to guide the wood past the
blade. So what purpose does it serve to watch the blade?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"jack the ripper" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jerry Jaksha
http:// www.grip-tite.com

PS: we are giving away 25 Grip-Tites to public school shop programs
this fall- please tell any shop teachers you know about this.


I use the grip-tite and really like it. Thanks for the good product. (though
I am skeptical about how long the plastic fins will last...)

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Samson" wrote:
I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

I do, whenever possible. The reason is simple: the blade is inside the guard.
If you keep your fingers outside the guard, they can't come in contact with
the blade.


Bingo!

It is astonishing how many people (the "I have to see the spinning
blade to know it's there crowd") indicate they haven't figured that
out.

--

FF

zap wrote:

Well My Friend, There are some who can, and will, learn by what others
have experienced, but there are always some who insist on learning the
hard way, insisting that they just have to do it their way.

Every one of us who got cut up on a saw, or banged up on a motorcycle
was sure that it would not happen to us, we were just too good and
careful.

Have fun in the Emergency Room of the hospital, and when you come out,
please write and tell us about your blade guard and if it is still on
your shelf gathering dust.


You are making the erroneous assumption that an accident is inevitable. Well,
yes it is, if you think those monkeys are going to reproduce Shakespeare in
your lifetime :-).

I've ridden motorcycles since I was 14 (I'm 69 now) and apart from a few cases
of road rash, had no problems. I've driven at least a half million miles and
been involved in 3 non-injury accidents, none of them my fault. And I've
been pushing wood through a tablesaw for at least 30 years and still have all
my fingers. In fact, I can only remember one kickback in those 30 years.

Yes, I know you're going to say I'm just lucky. I happen to believe you make
your own luck. If being careful and knowing the odds is luck, then yes I'm
lucky :-).

Luck is when somebody shoots at you and misses :-). And yes, I've had that
happen as well.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Doug Miller wrote:
...

If it had a guard, I might take my eyes off it, and forget about the
blade. So the guard might make me more comfortable, and less cautious.

Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. You don't need to see the blade
in the first place, so taking your eyes off of it doesn't matter. You don't
(or at least shouldn't) need to be able to see the blade in order to remember
that it's there, and that it's dangerous. You don't need to see it in order to
make a proper cut, because the cut path is determined by the setting of your
rip fence, miter gauge, or whatever you're using to guide the wood past the
blade. So what purpose does it serve to watch the blade?


No kidding. I'd rather not be in the same shop as a person who can
use a tool to cut off a 2 x 4, and yet not realize that it is dangerous
unless he can see the spinning blade!

--

FF

Mike Marlow wrote:
With all due respect to your profession, skill and experience David, I find
the above statement to be beyond belief. Saw guards are far from fool proof
and if you truly have seen that many table saw injuries, I find it very hard
to believe you've never seen a hand injury on a saw with a guard.

Likewise, I was a paramedic for 12 years in a rural area. In all of that
time I never took in a single patient from a table saw accident, though
there are plenty of table saws in garages and basements around here. For
you to attend 1-2 per week for 15 years, your experience is at the very
least, contrary to my own. Must be these people drive themselves in for
treatment?


In nearly 15 years as an orthopedic nurse in a hospital setting, I can only
recall taking care of 3-4 table saw accidents myself. I saw what he wrote and
wondered but I didn't really think about it. Now you make me think about it.

Are all these guys outpatients?

I don't really want to question him since he's agreeing with my position but his
numbers are a bit odd. His conclusions, however, are right on. Obviously the
man is a genius. G



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"jack the ripper" wrote in message
oups.com...
Warning- I am biased- I manufacture a safety tool for ripping.

But you shoud really know- there is a better way to rip wood than using
your fingers.

I have ripped over 5 million linear feet of thin, knotty, warped, and
cupped lumber over the last 15 years at woodworking shows without
kickbacks or fingers near the blade.
I get to see the short fingers for three days per weekend at
woodworking shows. A question I ask is "Has anyone in this group (of
10 or so) tangled with a tablesaw?" Almost always someone has.
Usually the fingers have been sewed up or back on, but do not work as
well anymore.

The key to finger safety when ripping or dadoing is to use something
other than your fingers to hold the wood against the fence, down (both
before and after the blade), and use something other than your fingers
to push the wood by the blade.

Question:
How often do you use a featherboard instead of your fingers?
The reason you don't is that clamped feather boards take too long
to clamp in place and remove. You use them only when you have to.

The solution is a magnetic featherboard or roller feeder that sets up
with one hand, as quick as putting your fingers there- Something you
actually use. It exists- and 250,000 table saw owners use it on every
rip, and jointer cut.

I apologize for the rant, but I have seen too many short fingers to
keep quiet.

Jerry Jaksha
http:// www.grip-tite.com

PS: we are giving away 25 Grip-Tites to public school shop programs
this fall- please tell any shop teachers you know about this.


Good for you.

I have no problem with a manufacturer weighing in on an on topic discussion.
Good luck with your safety products.

And you are right. No matter how good a job the doc does. It rarely equals
the original finger.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
Mike Marlow wrote:
With all due respect to your profession, skill and experience David, I
find
the above statement to be beyond belief. Saw guards are far from fool
proof
and if you truly have seen that many table saw injuries, I find it very
hard
to believe you've never seen a hand injury on a saw with a guard.

Likewise, I was a paramedic for 12 years in a rural area. In all of that
time I never took in a single patient from a table saw accident, though
there are plenty of table saws in garages and basements around here. For
you to attend 1-2 per week for 15 years, your experience is at the very
least, contrary to my own. Must be these people drive themselves in for
treatment?


In nearly 15 years as an orthopedic nurse in a hospital setting, I can
only recall taking care of 3-4 table saw accidents myself. I saw what he
wrote and wondered but I didn't really think about it. Now you make me
think about it.

Are all these guys outpatients?

I don't really want to question him since he's agreeing with my position
but his numbers are a bit odd. His conclusions, however, are right on.
Obviously the man is a genius. G

Maybe he runs the day shift in the Grand Rapids ED or something--some place
where there's a lot of woodworking going on. Still, not one with a guard is
kind of surprising. I do wonder how he _knew_ whether the guard was used
though--if the place is that busy (and for him to have seen that many table
saw cuts I'd expect it to be a _very_ busy ED) I'd be really surprised if
any surgeon in the ED had time to talk about matters peripheral to the
treatment.

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:27:57 -0700, Larry Blanchard
wrote:



Luck is when somebody shoots at you and misses :-). And yes, I've had that
happen as well.

Her husband was a bad shot?
..
..
..
..
(just kidding)

My guard, splitter and anti-kickback pawls are mounted on the TS at
all times except for dados. Any reason not to use is just
rationalization and self-delusion.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 03:21:31 GMT, "Samson" wrote:

I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

Samson wrote:
I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

Yes. Unless cut is not "through". Makita 2704 has very nice guard,
splitter, anti-kickback pawls. In/out in 30 sec.

Push-sticks are in-hand before commencing cut, unless both hands
will remain at least 10" away from blade, at absolute minimum.

Failing-safe very important too- continuously tracking highest possible
threat to extremities, and limiting that to zero. Stuff happens fast.

J

Upscale wrote:

: "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:jYm%g.14271
:
: [Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more comfortable
: without
: the guard than with it?

: I'd guess that some feel more comfortable when they can see the blade as
: compared to a guard that partially obscures seeing the whole blade.


I never have a problem seeing the blade doing the cutting while using a
guard -- I've never understood this argument.


It's also worth noting that no one can see the *teeth* of the sawblade while
the motor is turned on. So what one thinks of as the blade, visually, is
actually only part of the blade (and not the part farthest forward, nor the
part that can take a finger off).

-- Andy Barss

A little backround....I'm a carpenter for a living and can say that the
chances of finding a blade guard on any jobsite table saw (mine included) is
slim to none. There are many of us who feel more comfortable seeing the
blade and watching the cut rather than having it obscured. Without the
blade guard you learn to pay very close attention to the task at hand, which
is a good skill to have running a table saw anyway (with or without the
guard.)
However, I recently bought a cabinet saw for the shop and would like to find
a decent guard. I tried the excalibur guard I got at auction out today and
find it a little clunky at the blade cover, although with some re
engineering I think I can make it workable. --dave

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article k.net, "Dave
Jackson" wrote:
I've never used a guard, but I bought a new saw recently and thought I'd
at
least try using the guard. Well, after two cuts or so, the guard was
removed, and there it sits. As in the past, I felt more comfortable
without
it.

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more comfortable
without
the guard than with it?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(Doug Miller) writes:

3) Keep my eye on the blade, especially when it's spinning.

Why? What's it gonna do?
[snip]
You don't need to see it in order to
make a proper cut, because the cut path is determined by the setting of your
rip fence, miter gauge, or whatever you're using to guide the wood past the
blade. So what purpose does it serve to watch the blade?

It's dangerous after the cut as well. In repetitive cuts, I have to
move my hands, wood, etc in preparation for the next cut. Some
accidents occur when people watch other things, and forget about the
blade.

If I take my eyes off the blade, I might get careless. It's hard to
forget about the blade if your eyes are on it.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

In article .net, "Dave Jackson" wrote:
A little backround....I'm a carpenter for a living and can say that the
chances of finding a blade guard on any jobsite table saw (mine included) is
slim to none.

So?

I've worked construction before, and I've seen plenty of construction sites.
And I can say that the chance of finding eye or ear protection on any of the
people working there is slim to none.

Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

If anything, you're making a good argument *for* using the blade guard!

There are many of us who feel more comfortable seeing the
blade and watching the cut rather than having it obscured.

The question remains unanswered: why do you "feel more comfortable" when you
can see the blade? It isn't going anywhere...

Without the
blade guard you learn to pay very close attention to the task at hand,

If you have not already learned to pay close attention, you shouldn't be
operating the tool *with* a guard, let alone without one.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

writes:

No kidding. I'd rather not be in the same shop as a person who can
use a tool to cut off a 2 x 4, and yet not realize that it is dangerous
unless he can see the spinning blade!

That's not the point at all. Are you telling me that people who had
accidents with a table saw didn't THINK it was dangerous?

The cause of most accidents are (I would guess) inattention,
stupidity, and ignorance. And I bet that most seasoned woodworkers
have accidents with tablesaws because of inattention.

My attention won't wander while I'm watching that blade.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com writes:

In nearly 15 years as an orthopedic nurse in a hospital setting, I
can only recall taking care of 3-4 table saw accidents myself. I
saw what he wrote and wondered but I didn't really think about it.
Now you make me think about it.

I don't really want to question him since he's agreeing with my
position but his numbers are a bit odd.

He did say he was a hand surgeon.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

J. Clarke wrote:
Maybe he runs the day shift in the Grand Rapids ED or something--some place
where there's a lot of woodworking going on. Still, not one with a guard is
kind of surprising. I do wonder how he _knew_ whether the guard was used
though--if the place is that busy (and for him to have seen that many table
saw cuts I'd expect it to be a _very_ busy ED) I'd be really surprised if
any surgeon in the ED had time to talk about matters peripheral to the
treatment.


Au contraire. It's been my experience very few of these guys are all business.
I'd be surprised if they didn't take the time to ask. Hell, I'd ask. It's one
of the ways I assess level of consciousness and orientation. Kills two birds
with one stone... professional and personal curiosity.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Bruce Barnett wrote:
I don't really want to question him since he's agreeing with my
position but his numbers are a bit odd.

He did say he was a hand surgeon.


Yeah, but his patients would become my patients if they become admitted to the
hospital. I work with orthopedic surgeons every day at work; that's the area I
work in. We're an orthopedic/neurosurgery/med-surg floor.

I used to work on a combination orthopedic joint/urology unit at a large
teaching hospital. I called it : "bones 'n boners".



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

(snip) If anything, you're making a good argument *for* using the blade
guard!

I'm not trying to argue anything here. Just because YOU use one doesn't
mean everyone else should. Have you ever run yours without a guard? And if
so, why are you using one now.

(snip) If you have not already learned to pay close attention, you shouldn't
be
operating the tool *with* a guard, let alone without one.

On the flip side, if you *truly* have learned to pay close attention to the
task at hand why would you need a guard? Guards surely prevent accidents,
but accidents in the shop generally don't happen to someone who is aware of
, and more importantly knowledgeable, about what they are doing.

I suppose you'd have a big crisis if I mentioned I am also perfectly
comfortable cutting something freehand on a table saw as well! --dave



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article .net, "Dave
Jackson" wrote:
A little backround....I'm a carpenter for a living and can say that the
chances of finding a blade guard on any jobsite table saw (mine included)
is
slim to none.

So?

I've worked construction before, and I've seen plenty of construction
sites.
And I can say that the chance of finding eye or ear protection on any of
the
people working there is slim to none.

Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

If anything, you're making a good argument *for* using the blade guard!

There are many of us who feel more comfortable seeing the
blade and watching the cut rather than having it obscured.

The question remains unanswered: why do you "feel more comfortable" when
you
can see the blade? It isn't going anywhere...

Without the
blade guard you learn to pay very close attention to the task at hand,

If you have not already learned to pay close attention, you shouldn't be
operating the tool *with* a guard, let alone without one.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I use a bladeguard any time it doesn't impede an operation and I
require 350+ college student shop users to do the same. Back when I
didn't have to set an example, I hated bladeguards as much as the next
guy, but after a few years of using 'em, I get uncomfortable when it
should be there but isn't.

Of course most stock guards are worthless and are thrown out for a
reason. Aftermarket overheads are pretty good or you can build your
own or just get a new saw (a good excuse for a new tool!!). The new PM
has a riving knife as does the sawstop. I think I recently heard that
riving knifes will be required on new saws in 09? (I'll check this out
at work tomorrrow) So if your looking for new equipment, you might put
it off to see what happens with this.

We use Beismeyer overheads. The cheezy adjustment bolts are removed,
so it's an easy slide of the telescoping tubes to tweak the location of
the guard or to push it out of the way for narrow rips.

We have SawStops, so the riving knives are ALWAYS(nearly) there,
invisibly making stock go straight and preventing binding. I actually
worry that our students will get into trouble if they use saws without
riving knifes in some other setting: the riving knives almost make
things too easy.

BTW: we have not changed any sop's with the advent of sawstops, they're
just another layer of protection.

I agree that watching the blade is not necessarily sound practice. You
really cannot discern what your stock is doing if your fixating on the
blade spinning 'round. If you're ripping, it's much more important to
keep an eye on the edge of your stock against the rip fence so that you
know that it's going straight and can adjust accordingly if it isn't.
The blade is going to spin and cut, you should be concentrating on
making the stock go straight.

I've got 2 unbending, shorter-than-the-other fingers due to an
unguarded tablesaw that I got into when I was in college. I've been
preventing it from happening to other students for 12 years now. Blade
guards (and sawstops) are a no-brainer.


If you don't use a guard you're just asking for trouble.

I don't care how experienced, careful, knowledgable or invincible you
are, WHY would you leave that spinning blade out in the open when you
can put something over it.

Kevin Groenke
University of Minnesota
College of Design - FabLab



Roger Haar wrote:
Hi,

I try to use the guard/splitter/antikick back thing when I can.
There are times such as when cutting dadoes when it does not work. I
have practiced installing and removing the guard so that the process is
relatively quick. Also I try to plan my cuts to minimize switching cut
types. I do not have a guard on my cutoff sled, mostly, because I have
not figured out a good design, that would not get it the way of my
product runs of 100 identical pieces.

With that said, my biggest safety feature has been the constant
training of myself to put my full attention on the saw if the blade is
spinning. If there is a distraction or I feel even a bit dazed or
tired, the saw gets turned off immediately. No "One more cut."

Thanks
Roger Haar

************************************************** *****************************
Samson wrote:
I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

I don't believe it.

"David" wrote in message
...
I'll side with Mortimer and Nigel. As a hand surgeon, I've probably
cared for close to 1000 table saw injuries in my career.

Hi All,

This is a rant. If you read it, don't complain later that it was too
long or about what it says.

All this back and forth over a blade guard. Not one of you is going to
change. Those who believe that they are invincible will continue to
believe that they are invincible. those who have either taken advice or
have seen enough accidents will be using a blade guard. So be it.

There are two times when one is an accident waiting to happen, The first
is when they are just beginning, and the second is when they think that
they have mastered it and think that they are in control, thus becoming
comfortable with what they are doing.

I do not know about the rest of you, but I have spent a lifetime working
in dangerous places and situations around moving machinery and high
voltage. And in that lifetime,of over 70 years, I have see a great many
accidents around machinery, and virtually all of them happened to
someone who had been doing that job for many years. Then it happened to
them.

What roofer or carpenter has not seen someone fall off a building? What
meat cutter has not cut them self? So you really think that it won't
happen to you?? Every one of them was sure that it only happens to
someone else, and won't happen to them. All you have to do is to sneeze
once without warning, and you are going to move where you do not expect
to be. I personally knew a man who was hit by an airplane propeller,
and yes he lived. That he lived was so unusual that the navy sent him
all over the world to teach safety. He had worked around those
airplanes for many years. He knew where the danger zone was, but a gust
of wind at just the wrong time. I saw a man physically picked up and
drawn into the intake of a Jet engine in less than 4/10 of a second, he
got too close. Again a man who had worked around those engines for
years. He knew where he should not be, but just one foot too close. I
saw men loose fingers and hands and eyes, just because they grew
comfortable around moving machinery. And you think that it will not
happen to you? Good luck all, I hope that you never find out the hard
way as so many do. No it does not have to be your fault. strange things
happen sometimes. A single thread hanging down can be caught and drag
you into whatever is moving. One strand of hair is all it takes to grab
you and pull you in. Just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I
have see that happen also. I saw a man one day slip and have his hand
run into a moving band saw blade faster than you could blink, his hand
had been at least a foot away from the blade. Cut three inches into his
hand between the thumb and first finger before he could stop his hand
from moving. Every one of them was doing what they did day in and day
out. Professionals every one.

I have watched those carpenters and other workers who have thrown safety
out the window just because the boss is pushing for just a little more
speed.

You all should really look at power company workers, the hot linemen.
You have two extremes of their ages. Either very young just starting
out, and very old men. The only way for the very young to reach the old
age is to listen to the old men who practice extreme safety at all
times. If it cannot be done safely, it just will not be done.

I have refused to do some jobs because they could not be done safely,
and I refused to take a chance. They could keep the job, and I'll keep
my life. Every time they found someone else who would gamble their life,
gamble their hands, eyes, etc that they could get away with it. And
mostly they did win the gamble. But once in awhile some one lost the
gamble.

You go ahead and gamble, it's not going to hurt me. It's going to hurt
your family.

But I still have all my fingers, all my toes, both my eyes. You say that
you have too? Well some of us are trying to help you keep them.

So much for this rant.

Zap



Dave Jackson wrote:
A little backround....I'm a carpenter for a living and can say that the
chances of finding a blade guard on any jobsite table saw (mine included) is
slim to none. There are many of us who feel more comfortable seeing the
blade and watching the cut rather than having it obscured. Without the
blade guard you learn to pay very close attention to the task at hand, which
is a good skill to have running a table saw anyway (with or without the
guard.)
However, I recently bought a cabinet saw for the shop and would like to find
a decent guard. I tried the excalibur guard I got at auction out today and
find it a little clunky at the blade cover, although with some re
engineering I think I can make it workable. --dave

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...

In article k.net, "Dave
Jackson" wrote:

I've never used a guard, but I bought a new saw recently and thought I'd
at
least try using the guard. Well, after two cuts or so, the guard was
removed, and there it sits. As in the past, I felt more comfortable
without
it.

[Curious here, not argumentative] Why? How can you be more comfortable
without
the guard than with it?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 10/24/2006 9:32:24 AM, "jack the ripper" wrote:

I apologize for the rant, but I have seen too many short fingers to
keep quiet.

Jerry Jaksha
http:// www.grip-tite.com

What's the cost of these things, Jerry?

On 10/24/2006 2:59:08 PM, wrote:

Samson wrote:
I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

Yes. Unless cut is not "through". Makita 2704 has very nice guard,
splitter, anti-kickback pawls. In/out in 30 sec.

Push-sticks are in-hand before commencing cut, unless both hands
will remain at least 10" away from blade, at absolute minimum.

Failing-safe very important too- continuously tracking highest possible
threat to extremities, and limiting that to zero. Stuff happens fast.

J

I use push sticks all the time, mostly because table saw scares the
crap out of me.

Sorry -- I didn't mean to start a battle of numbers. I am one of only a
couple hand surgeons in a community west of Cleveland. My practice is
limited to hands and wrists, and my affiliation with the Cleveland
Clinic draws a lot of referrals. I also keep a part of my day open for
emergency patients, increasing my availability for these problems, and
probably the number I see relative to a hand surgeon who tries to see
only elective patients. Most of the injuries are "warning shots" -
requiring little more than dressing changes, motion exercises, wound
care, and a few sutures. Most are able to bring themselves, or find a
ride to the ER or office, rather than requiring the services of a rescue
squad. Just about everything surgical below the wrist is managed as an
outpatient now (with fingertip and nail injuries repaired in the
office), except for procedures requiring a microvascular repair.

As a woodworker, I always find time to ask how it happened. I've
actually learned quite a bit from other's "experience". Often it opens
them up to share some stories. At follow-up visits, some have brought
in pictures of their projects, and a few brought in some smaller works.
I've been astounded by some of the craftsmanship, and find it a
rewarding part of my practice. I might have even convinced a couple of
them to use guards, pushsticks, splitters, outfeed support, etc. Or not.
.. .G

David

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Bruce Barnett wrote:

I don't really want to question him since he's agreeing with my
position but his numbers are a bit odd.

He did say he was a hand surgeon.



Yeah, but his patients would become my patients if they become admitted to the
hospital. I work with orthopedic surgeons every day at work; that's the area I
work in. We're an orthopedic/neurosurgery/med-surg floor.

I used to work on a combination orthopedic joint/urology unit at a large
teaching hospital. I called it : "bones 'n boners".

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
et...
Samson wrote:

Question: Do you use one?

A shop-made overhead guard, made of Lexan. I built mine following a
woodcentral.com article, complete with a dust fitting.

Does your's resemble the pictures on WoodCentral? I ask because their's
looks loike it is connected to the ceiling.

Mike

The guard is on my saw except for non-through cuts. I'm thinking about
making an overarm guard so it is always on for the same reason I have a
chainsaw with a chain brake. I plan to do everything within my power to
keep all my parts intact. Others mileage may vary (IE. if your parts don't
matter to you, go for it).

Mike

"Samson" wrote in message
...
I haven't used a blade guard for years, but was reading a book
today on table saws that insisted to use them whenever possible.

Question: Do you use one? If not, why not?

Give it time. You'll learn why that is not necessarily the right place.
There is a time and place where we all of think we are 10 feet tall ,teflon
coated and bullet proof. Good luck with that one.

Mike

"CW" wrote in message
link.net...
Mine is in place. Far end of the shop, top shelf.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
Quite true -- and keeping the guard in place makes it less likely that
you
will do that.

You think I should move it to the next shelf down?

"Mike" wrote in message
news:a6A%g.80716$073.13454@trnddc01...
Give it time. You'll learn why that is not necessarily the right place.

It's not often that I save a copy of a newsgroup post, but I'm keeping
a copy of this one. (And no I don't top post too often either...)


In article .net,
zap wrote:
Hi All,

This is a rant. If you read it, don't complain later that it was too
long or about what it says.

All this back and forth over a blade guard. Not one of you is going to
change. Those who believe that they are invincible will continue to
believe that they are invincible. those who have either taken advice or
have seen enough accidents will be using a blade guard. So be it.

There are two times when one is an accident waiting to happen, The first
is when they are just beginning, and the second is when they think that
they have mastered it and think that they are in control, thus becoming
comfortable with what they are doing.

I do not know about the rest of you, but I have spent a lifetime working
in dangerous places and situations around moving machinery and high
voltage. And in that lifetime,of over 70 years, I have see a great many
accidents around machinery, and virtually all of them happened to
someone who had been doing that job for many years. Then it happened to
them.

What roofer or carpenter has not seen someone fall off a building? What
meat cutter has not cut them self? So you really think that it won't
happen to you?? Every one of them was sure that it only happens to
someone else, and won't happen to them. All you have to do is to sneeze
once without warning, and you are going to move where you do not expect
to be. I personally knew a man who was hit by an airplane propeller,
and yes he lived. That he lived was so unusual that the navy sent him
all over the world to teach safety. He had worked around those
airplanes for many years. He knew where the danger zone was, but a gust
of wind at just the wrong time. I saw a man physically picked up and
drawn into the intake of a Jet engine in less than 4/10 of a second, he
got too close. Again a man who had worked around those engines for
years. He knew where he should not be, but just one foot too close. I
saw men loose fingers and hands and eyes, just because they grew
comfortable around moving machinery. And you think that it will not
happen to you? Good luck all, I hope that you never find out the hard
way as so many do. No it does not have to be your fault. strange things
happen sometimes. A single thread hanging down can be caught and drag
you into whatever is moving. One strand of hair is all it takes to grab
you and pull you in. Just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I
have see that happen also. I saw a man one day slip and have his hand
run into a moving band saw blade faster than you could blink, his hand
had been at least a foot away from the blade. Cut three inches into his
hand between the thumb and first finger before he could stop his hand
from moving. Every one of them was doing what they did day in and day
out. Professionals every one.

I have watched those carpenters and other workers who have thrown safety
out the window just because the boss is pushing for just a little more
speed.

You all should really look at power company workers, the hot linemen.
You have two extremes of their ages. Either very young just starting
out, and very old men. The only way for the very young to reach the old
age is to listen to the old men who practice extreme safety at all
times. If it cannot be done safely, it just will not be done.

I have refused to do some jobs because they could not be done safely,
and I refused to take a chance. They could keep the job, and I'll keep
my life. Every time they found someone else who would gamble their life,
gamble their hands, eyes, etc that they could get away with it. And
mostly they did win the gamble. But once in awhile some one lost the
gamble.

You go ahead and gamble, it's not going to hurt me. It's going to hurt
your family.

But I still have all my fingers, all my toes, both my eyes. You say that
you have too? Well some of us are trying to help you keep them.

So much for this rant.

Zap

--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -