Hoping someone can help...

I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.

We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...

No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

I need specific tips....any help appreciated.

On 8 Apr 2006 00:20:44 -0700, "Krog7D7" wrote:

Hoping someone can help...
I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.
We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...
No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

Were you able to do this before the machine?
What is the final grit used by this machine? Tried a finer grit? Have
you tried hand sanding afterwards with finer grits? Fine grit in a
flap sander may work depending on profile. A lot depends on your wood,
finishing method, expectations, experience...
Is it just the stain that shows this off, is the stain just soaking
into the poorly sanded areas? Or all end grain areas?
Have you tried a sealer/sizing for the end grain before finishing? Or
other finishing technique (pigment in the finish)?

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.
I need specific tips....any help appreciated.



--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114

Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!

On 8 Apr 2006 00:20:44 -0700, "Krog7D7" wrote:

Hoping someone can help...

I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.

We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...

No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

I need specific tips....any help appreciated.
You should never have to sand a raised panel if it has been cut
properly. Consider large Crown Moulding or other large and complex
wood items - it would be impractical to sand these. Similarly, it
would not be practical to sand raised panels effectively in the
production environment without destroying the fine features (crisp
lines, etc)
When the major manufacturers cut wood they are using large
machines...this allows for very high speed (critical) and also
increased pressure of the wood item against the cutter. The slower the
cutter, the slower the feed rate. The last point is the condition of
the cutter....it needs to be razor sharp.
A few months back a local contractor came to me with a similar
problem. In the end, I find he is cutting raised panels on a table
saw. While that is fine for *home shop* efforts, it is not going to
provide the clean finish of a smooth/closed patina.
I make panels on a Shaper (Grizzly) and only experience *open* end
grain when the cutter is dying.
There is so much more to be said for each point I have mentioned
above. To summarize, the variables a

Cutter condition
Cutter speed
Pressure against cutter
Feed rate

What woods are you cutting and what is the machinery you are using?

One solution is to seal the entire door before stain.

J

"Krog7D7" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hoping someone can help...

I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.

We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...

No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

I need specific tips....any help appreciated.


Seal the endgrain so it won't absorb so much. Two ways come to mind that
are commonly used. First is to sand with super fine paper to heat the wood,
closing the pores and hardening the end grain - burnishing. Second is to
use a wash coat of sanding sealer like a 1# cut of shellac.

"Krog7D7" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hoping someone can help...

I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.

We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...

No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

I need specific tips....any help appreciated.


I hand sand with the grain with a higher/finer grit sand paper wrapped
around a wood block.

On 8 Apr 2006 00:20:44 -0700, "Krog7D7" wrote:

Hoping someone can help...

I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.

We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...

No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

I need specific tips....any help appreciated.


I can't give you specifics on the machine, but I have found that sanding
to at least one to two grits higher than for the non-end grain parts makes
the finish come out much closer to the rest of the piece.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

George wrote:
"Krog7D7" wrote in message
ups.com...
...
No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

Your problem is more likely to be the finishing than the sanding.


Seal the endgrain so it won't absorb so much.

Bingo.

Two ways come to mind that
are commonly used. First is to sand with super fine paper to heat the wood,
closing the pores and hardening the end grain - burnishing. Second is to
use a wash coat of sanding sealer like a 1# cut of shellac.

End grain always absorbs more stain or finish than long grain.

It is quite likely that the other companies are not staining thier
panels. They may be toning them instead, which is the application
of a colored film finish, typically on top of a clear sealer coat.

You should be able to get good results using 1 lb blond shellac to
seal the panel and then go over that with a darker shellac or
laquer or polyurethane with dye added. Then your protective top
coat.

Some woods (even within the same species) tend to be blothier
than others.

--

FF

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

To give you all more information....

Our small door company produces doors for contractors. We don't do ANY
finishing for customers. The doors are final sanded and it's up to the
customer to stain/finish them. I DO however try stains from time to
time to inspect the sanding quality. Although the suggestions on
conditioners and sealers is very good advice.....I need a better final
sanding solution to be able to hand off to the customer so they can be
ready to stain once they receive the doors with no work having to be
done by themselves.

More info on our machines....

The main machine in question is a Unique GT250 and a Unique 336-4
Shape/Sand. Both setups....easily 100k all said with tooling. So as far
as the quality of cut....our tooling is carbide insert tooling that is
clearly sharp enough. We run the cutters at 7000/8000 rpm's....so speed
isn't an issue. And never have we ever been able to cut CROSS/END
grain, even when everything was brand new, we could never stain end
grain without problems. Even the machine manufacturer agrees that it's
not possible....that's the reason we bought the shape and sand machine
in the 1st place.

On our shape and sand the feed rate is 20 fpm and the cutters are run
ar 7000rpm. The cuts come out fine. With the grain cuts can be stained
to a somewhat acceptable level with little or no sanding. But again,
the problem is the end grain. For the sanders...the sanding head is
with 1000th of an inch match to our cutting profile. We run the sanders
at 1350 rpm between 2 stations. The first station hits with 150g and
the second with 180g.

Something that is interesting......some have mention going up very high
with the sanding on the end grains. I need some more specifics....;

Are you guys suggesting like going to 220/320g or even higher?
400/600g?

Thanks for the feedback.

On 8 Apr 2006 21:26:10 -0700, "Krog7D7" wrote:

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

To give you all more information....

.... snip of some very high-end machinery in a production environment

Something that is interesting......some have mention going up very high
with the sanding on the end grains. I need some more specifics....;

Are you guys suggesting like going to 220/320g or even higher?
400/600g?


Yep. If you are only sanding to 180, would recommend going to 320 on the
end-grain. When sanding to 220, I would go to 400 grit. I've never tried
sanding at any higher grit on wood than that. It seems to burnish the
end-grain and make the coloring come out more consistent with the top and
side-grains.

Thanks for the feedback.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On 8 Apr 2006 21:26:10 -0700, "Krog7D7" wrote:

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

To give you all more information....

Our small door company produces doors for contractors. We don't do ANY
finishing for customers. The doors are final sanded and it's up to the
customer to stain/finish them. I DO however try stains from time to
time to inspect the sanding quality. Although the suggestions on
conditioners and sealers is very good advice.....I need a better final
sanding solution to be able to hand off to the customer so they can be
ready to stain once they receive the doors with no work having to be
done by themselves.

More info on our machines....

The main machine in question is a Unique GT250 and a Unique 336-4
Shape/Sand. Both setups....easily 100k all said with tooling. So as far
as the quality of cut....our tooling is carbide insert tooling that is
clearly sharp enough. We run the cutters at 7000/8000 rpm's....so speed
isn't an issue. And never have we ever been able to cut CROSS/END
grain, even when everything was brand new, we could never stain end
grain without problems. Even the machine manufacturer agrees that it's
not possible....that's the reason we bought the shape and sand machine
in the 1st place.

On our shape and sand the feed rate is 20 fpm and the cutters are run
ar 7000rpm. The cuts come out fine. With the grain cuts can be stained
to a somewhat acceptable level with little or no sanding. But again,
the problem is the end grain. For the sanders...the sanding head is
with 1000th of an inch match to our cutting profile. We run the sanders
at 1350 rpm between 2 stations. The first station hits with 150g and
the second with 180g.

Something that is interesting......some have mention going up very high
with the sanding on the end grains. I need some more specifics....;

Are you guys suggesting like going to 220/320g or even higher?
400/600g?

Thanks for the feedback.

One last point-
Yesterday I had to cut an oak panel and as I was doing so I realized
that my early morning response neglected to add one point that might
be the reason I don't have problems as you describe.
I make multiple passes. The panel I made yesterday was from 5/4 and I
made 3 cutting passes and one finishing pass. The final pass is taking
out only approx. 0.5-1.0mm...
If I was to make this same panel with a single pass I would probably
have the end grain issues you describe.
I make panels in custom finish work application so the work of three
passes is not an issue for me. However, if you are running larger
production this might not be practical.

Good Luck!

"Krog7D7" wrote in message
oups.com...
Something that is interesting......some have mention going up very high
with the sanding on the end grains. I need some more specifics....;

Are you guys suggesting like going to 220/320g or even higher?
400/600g?


What you're doing is heating, stuffing small dust in, and allowing the
contracting that goes with the heat and overdrying to close the wood
vessels. Their job, prior to your murdering them to glorify your living
space, was to conduct liquid over distance. Unless you find a way of
putting a finger in the dam, they will.

That's why stuffing with resin - sealers - works.

End grain will soak up more stain. Because of the translucent nature of
stain, the more you put on, the darker it becomes. Flood the end grain with
the type of solvent that your stain uses (mineral spirits for oil based
etc...) This will decrease how quickly the end grain absorbs stain.

-nick


Here is what I've done.
"Krog7D7" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hoping someone can help...

I operate a small door company and we're having a problem with raised
panel end grains.

We have a very expensive shape and sand machine....all set up correctly
etc...

No matter what setups I use when the panels are stained....the end
grains come out very dark and splotchy.

I know the big companies sand end grain effectively. What are some tips
everyone has? I've read some of the other posts but people speak in
generalities.

I need specific tips....any help appreciated.



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Nicky wrote:
End grain will soak up more stain. Because of the translucent nature of
stain, the more you put on, the darker it becomes.

This may be true, but only if you are applying it wrong.

According to Bob Flexnor, the correct way to apply stain is to
rub it on with a rag and then wipe off the excess in the direction
of the grain. This will fill the pores with the stain particles. Once
filled, you cannot put any more into the pores.

If you slather the stain on and let it dry without wiping off the
excess
then indeed it will get darker with each application. It will also
obscure the grain as the stain partlces are opaque.

A stain, as opposed to a dye, is a suspension of solid particles
in a translucent or transparent base.

Of course according to Bob Flexnor anything that you do
differrntly from him is wrong. ;-)

--

FF