2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?

21 more young Americans have died since I last posted the count, a
week ago.

Why is it important to post this here?

The demographics of the Wreck are very interesting.

We are old enough to have served in other wars.

We are old enough to have children and grandchildren who might be
called to serve in this "War".

We are old enough to know better.

We vote, we are smart, and we can make a difference if we try.

Why is it important to post this here?

The killing of our children in a "War" that has been entered into
without regard for probable cause, without a clear purpose, without a
description of victory - is no war that we want our children to be
involved in.

To those who would say that, "They enlisted, they know the mission." -
watch the current advertising for the military on television.

Is there a mention of dismemberment? Do they advertise the
possibility of death? Do the ads have the degree of disclosure of
possibilities that we would demand from those who would sell us drugs,
food, and tools?

Why is it important to post this here?

Yes, I have been big on keeping the Wreck free of political discourse.

This is not about politics.

This is about the lives of our children and grandchildren.

Some arguments transcend boundaries that once were useful.

Why is it important to post this here?



Isn't it obvious? And, yes, I will post an update every week, so set
your filters, if you are of such a mind.



For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
Commandant - but was too honest:

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:49:16 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:

Keep on posting....

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?

21 more young Americans have died since I last posted the count, a
week ago.

Why is it important to post this here?

The demographics of the Wreck are very interesting.

We are old enough to have served in other wars.

We are old enough to have children and grandchildren who might be
called to serve in this "War".

We are old enough to know better.

We vote, we are smart, and we can make a difference if we try.

Why is it important to post this here?

The killing of our children in a "War" that has been entered into
without regard for probable cause, without a clear purpose, without a
description of victory - is no war that we want our children to be
involved in.

To those who would say that, "They enlisted, they know the mission." -
watch the current advertising for the military on television.

Is there a mention of dismemberment? Do they advertise the
possibility of death? Do the ads have the degree of disclosure of
possibilities that we would demand from those who would sell us drugs,
food, and tools?

Why is it important to post this here?

Yes, I have been big on keeping the Wreck free of political discourse.

This is not about politics.

This is about the lives of our children and grandchildren.

Some arguments transcend boundaries that once were useful.

Why is it important to post this here?



Isn't it obvious? And, yes, I will post an update every week, so set
your filters, if you are of such a mind.



For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
Commandant - but was too honest:

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
Commandant - but was too honest:

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm


Tom,
You represent yourself as someone who has given a great deal of
thought to world politics and the injustice of war!

As a young Marine I spent a year one month in-country in the late
60's. I was sent home to repair a small wound to my lower back. So
its with a very heavy troubled heart that I count the wounded and
dead.

I would like to ask you a simple question that has trouble me greatly.
It scares me. It scares me more then nukes did, it scares me more then
Nam did.

How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this OT post.

Ed

wrote:
For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
Commandant - but was too honest:

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm


Tom,
You represent yourself as someone who has given a great deal of
thought to world politics and the injustice of war!

As a young Marine I spent a year one month in-country in the late
60's. I was sent home to repair a small wound to my lower back. So
its with a very heavy troubled heart that I count the wounded and
dead.

I would like to ask you a simple question that has trouble me greatly.
It scares me. It scares me more then nukes did, it scares me more then
Nam did.

How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this OT post.

Ed

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago. While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
ignoring the problem altogether.

There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam. Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.

Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam. Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.

Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.

That's not surprising. Better one dictator you know and a semblance of
control than multiple gun happy insurgents blowing up everything and anyone
in sight.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.

With all due respect, and from one old soldier to another, were not the
first Trade Center bombing, the Cole, and 911, just to name a few, all _pre_
Iraq?

Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.

A good case can be made that that depends upon how you much you choose to
believe what you read and hear from a media whose survival is predicated
upon hyperbole, sensationalism, and tragedy.

Another good case can be made that suicide/homicide bombings are acts of
desperation, and desperation fairly indicates a cause on the losing end.

From my POV, the International picture has never been all that rosy since
Genghis Kahn, but perhaps it is not as bad as some would want you to
believe?

Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the beginning
of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...

Hope yours is a good one also.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05

"Swingman" wrote in message

Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the
beginning
of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...

Glad your day is nice. Our up here in Ontario, Canada is about 4° F. with a
lot of rain. And that's good weather for this time year. Sincerest wish is
to win the lottery and move down to a temperate part of the US. Been trying
to figure out which part of your country is warm, but not really hot,
doesn't usually have anything colder than 45° F., no floods, earthquakes,
tornadoes and the least incidence of any sort of climatic catastrophe.

"Upscale" wrote in message

Glad your day is nice. Our up here in Ontario, Canada is about 4° F. with
a
lot of rain. And that's good weather for this time year. Sincerest wish is
to win the lottery and move down to a temperate part of the US. Been
trying
to figure out which part of your country is warm, but not really hot,
doesn't usually have anything colder than 45° F., no floods, earthquakes,
tornadoes and the least incidence of any sort of climatic catastrophe.

Not that you wouldn't be welcome, but I don't think Texas would fit your
requirements of temperate. As for the rest, be a good boy and maybe in the
afterlife, Pleasantville ...



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05

Swingman wrote:
"Upscale" wrote in message

Glad your day is nice. Our up here in Ontario, Canada is about 4° F. with
a
lot of rain. And that's good weather for this time year. Sincerest wishis
to win the lottery and move down to a temperate part of the US. Been
trying
to figure out which part of your country is warm, but not really hot,
doesn't usually have anything colder than 45° F., no floods, earthquakes,
tornadoes and the least incidence of any sort of climatic catastrophe.

Not that you wouldn't be welcome, but I don't think Texas would fit your
requirements of temperate. As for the rest, be a good boy and maybe in the
afterlife, Pleasantville ...


Somehow, I have a feeling this is the best time of year in much of
Texas. It usually is, here, too, but it's been kind of weird this year,
warm late and almost no color to be seen in the woods. We drove up on
the Blue Ridge Parkway yesterday, took the dog and the camera scouting
sites to shoot classic cars, and my wife brought snacks. The wind was
so strong I thought it would blow our hair off when we located a table.
One thing for sure, there was no competition for the picnic tables
anywhere we stopped!

It was still enjoyable and I got three or four good sites and half a
day off. Hard to beat that.

"Swingman" wrote in message

Not that you wouldn't be welcome, but I don't think Texas would fit your
requirements of temperate. As for the rest, be a good boy and maybe in the
afterlife, Pleasantville ...

Well, I'd definitely be up to visiting sometime. Heard barbequing is
national pastime in your neck of the woods. Guess that's status quo for all
that Texas beef you've got. These past few years, it's the cold that gets to
me, heat doesn't bother me much at all other than running the fan once in
awhile. Haven't run the air condition once in five years. Of course, few
days reach 100°F up here, but it does get humid.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

Somehow, I have a feeling this is the best time of year in much of
Texas.

It is ... just walked in from opening the doors on the shop and it was a
perfect 59. Nice to be able to work without ending the day looking like a
harness lathered plow horse.

It usually is, here, too, but it's been kind of weird this year,
warm late and almost no color to be seen in the woods. We drove up on
the Blue Ridge Parkway yesterday, took the dog and the camera scouting
sites to shoot classic cars, and my wife brought snacks. The wind was
so strong I thought it would blow our hair off when we located a table.
One thing for sure, there was no competition for the picnic tables
anywhere we stopped!

We basically have two colors here in Texas, live and dead. The wife's from
AR and keeps telling me how pretty the colors are this time of year ...
unfortunately, that's one of life's little pleasures entirely lost on me.

My favorite summer time locale in the US thus far is Wisconsin, up around
Cable.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05

"Upscale" wrote in message

Well, I'd definitely be up to visiting sometime.

If you're ever in this neck of the woods, let us know beforehand and we'll
scooch over and make room for a visit.

Heard barbequing is
national pastime in your neck of the woods. Guess that's status quo for
all
that Texas beef you've got.

Yep ... tofu doesn't stay on the grill worth a damn.

These past few years, it's the cold that gets to
me, heat doesn't bother me much at all other than running the fan once in
awhile. Haven't run the air condition once in five years. Of course, few
days reach 100°F up here, but it does get humid.

I wear shorts all year long. I sometimes have to put on a shirt jacket over
the top, but that is rare ... and the fashion industry ignores me for some
reason?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05

SNIP


Isn't it obvious? And, yes, I will post an update every week, so set
your filters, if you are of such a mind.


Thanks for the warning. I hope you plan to keep the same first part of
the title so that I can filter on it. You sometimes post some nice
stories I would prefer to not have to miss.

Dave Hall

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?

It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tom Watson wrote:

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?


It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.

It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
heart?
j4

In article , jo4hn wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?


It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.

It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
heart?

No, but I'd gladly trade Tom for a load of purpleheart...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.

I think it was the 1972 Olympics when I first took real notice of how
vicious things could get outside of a war zone. But when I saw the
Iranians dancing in the streets in 1979 it started to dawn on me that
this might be more then a Jew thing. On oct.23 1983 I watched as
over 200 of my brothers where killed in a terror attack. Fast forward
to 2001;Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar issued an edict against
un-Islamic graven images and blows up two colossal Buddhas. Next big
thing to come down is the Two Towers.
I think Islamic Terror was vicious long before Iraq.
The Jihad laid forth by Osama and being waged by his followers is
based on and fueled by their view of Islam.
I don't think there is anywhere to hide or a policy that can save us
from acts of terror, the US is a marked country.

Ed

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:21:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , jo4hn wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?


It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.

It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
heart?

No, but I'd gladly trade Tom for a load of purpleheart...

I too will gladly trade you for a purpleheart

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?

[snipped for brevity]

I really, really, really, really try VERY hard to stay out of these
types of discussions...

BUT....

Once in a blue moon, I stumble upon an article that sums up a few of my
sentiments. This article (rant) will likely get the author killed as he
****es off just about every religion on the planet, but dammit, he makes
you think. (Made *me* think, anyway..but then again..I had time to think
today.)
I don't see this article as anything more than a poignant illustration
just exactly how ****ed up we all are...depending where you come from,
of course. Killing for peace has always been difficult for me to
reconcile, even though I acknowledge the need for it sometimes.

http://tinyurl.com/82v3l

or

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-u...an-mu_b_9349.h
tml

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:21:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , jo4hn wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?


It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.

It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
heart?


no, but he'd jump at the chance to trade YOUR kid for one...

wrote in :

How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.


By teaching the children otherwise.

Charles Bull wrote in
:

No, but I'd gladly trade Tom for a load of purpleheart...

I too will gladly trade you for a purpleheart

Can I trade my neighbor for some cocobolo?

In article , s wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:21:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , jo4hn wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?


It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.

It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
heart?


no, but he'd jump at the chance to trade YOUR kid for one...

FOAD

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Patrick Conroy wrote:
wrote in :

How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.


By teaching the children otherwise.

I'd be interested in seeing your proposals for doing that...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:08:55 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Patrick Conroy wrote:
wrote in :

How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.


By teaching the children otherwise.

I'd be interested in seeing your proposals for doing that...
Let's see...

By setting a good example for one thing. It is not a very wise thing
for the only remaining superpower to act like an international bully
by bombing any country that makes us uneasy. Gaining global community
support not only is more effective at keeping the dictators in check
but also builds diplomatic capital with those countries who are(were)
friendly or neutral. Raging around the world, flexing our (weakening)
military muscles only weakens our relationship with those whose
support we need to REALLY fight international terrorism. Parenting is
hard work, being a bullying parent sounds like the easy way out but it
is only inviting disaster. It would be nice if the people who claim
to be patriots understood that the US can and should be a shining
example - of what's right with a constitutional democracy and not by
flaunting and abusing the advantage of strength we've built by being a
constitutional democracy.

But we get distracted - this was a discussion about Iraq - not about
Islamic terrorists. Saddam Hussein bore NO tolerance for any kind of
fundamentalism, Islamic or otherwise - to associate Iraq with Islamic
terrorism simply buys the BIG LIE we've been handed by this
administration (and his father). Sure, Saddam was perfectly willing
to make deals with any enemies of the US but he was also smart enough
to keep his hands (and borders) clean because he knew any appearance
of explicit support for terrorism would bring the US might onto his
head. The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.

TWS

TWS wrote:

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:08:55 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , Patrick Conroy wrote:

wrote in :


How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.


By teaching the children otherwise.

I'd be interested in seeing your proposals for doing that...

Let's see...

By setting a good example for one thing. It is not a very wise thing
for the only remaining superpower to act like an international bully
by bombing any country that makes us uneasy. Gaining global community
support not only is more effective at keeping the dictators in check
but also builds diplomatic capital with those countries who are(were)
friendly or neutral. Raging around the world, flexing our (weakening)
military muscles only weakens our relationship with those whose
support we need to REALLY fight international terrorism. Parenting is
hard work, being a bullying parent sounds like the easy way out but it
is only inviting disaster. It would be nice if the people who claim
to be patriots understood that the US can and should be a shining
example - of what's right with a constitutional democracy and not by
flaunting and abusing the advantage of strength we've built by being a
constitutional democracy.

But we get distracted - this was a discussion about Iraq - not about
Islamic terrorists. Saddam Hussein bore NO tolerance for any kind of
fundamentalism, Islamic or otherwise - to associate Iraq with Islamic
terrorism simply buys the BIG LIE we've been handed by this
administration (and his father). Sure, Saddam was perfectly willing
to make deals with any enemies of the US but he was also smart enough
to keep his hands (and borders) clean because he knew any appearance
of explicit support for terrorism would bring the US might onto his
head. The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.

TWS
peace friend.
j4

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:48:33 -0400, "Upscale" wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message

Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the
beginning
of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...

Glad your day is nice. Our up here in Ontario, Canada is about 4° F. with a
lot of rain. And that's good weather for this time year. Sincerest wish is
to win the lottery and move down to a temperate part of the US. Been trying
to figure out which part of your country is warm, but not really hot,
doesn't usually have anything colder than 45° F., no floods, earthquakes,
tornadoes and the least incidence of any sort of climatic catastrophe.



'fraid you only get to pick through a chinese menu of the above (at least
for the no colder than 45 deg F:

You get really hot in summer, temperate in winter, drop-dead gorgeous
spring and fall (like now): Arizona

You get temperate year around, but get earthquakes and mud and fire
seasons: California

Hot, humid summers, mild winters, but you get tornadoes and hurricanes (if
you go farther south. : Texas and Florida





+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.

RIGHT.......WTC was bombed TWICE since then. ****in GWB and his damned
money grabbin war!

While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
ignoring the problem altogether.

I think it takes education. Let's all get together and educate them
folks that "DEATH TO AMERICA" ain't right.

There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam.

Wow!! what a wonderful poll. was it before or after the torture
stopped? Before or after the polls closed?

Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.

Bully for you. Of course we don't belong there, silly. That's why we
are carrying guns. We did have a responsibility to the world to get
rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
the next elected warlord is not just as bad. Saddam bad. We all know
it. We all knew something had to be done. You chose to sit back and
wring your hands, distraught over what would happen. Others decided
that enough was enough.

Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.

With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.

David Sizemore wrote:

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.


RIGHT.......WTC was bombed TWICE since then. ****in GWB and his damned
money grabbin war!


While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
ignoring the problem altogether.


I think it takes education. Let's all get together and educate them
folks that "DEATH TO AMERICA" ain't right.


There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam.


Wow!! what a wonderful poll. was it before or after the torture
stopped? Before or after the polls closed?


Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.


Bully for you. Of course we don't belong there, silly. That's why we
are carrying guns. We did have a responsibility to the world to get
rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
the next elected warlord is not just as bad. Saddam bad. We all know
it. We all knew something had to be done. You chose to sit back and
wring your hands, distraught over what would happen. Others decided
that enough was enough.


Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.


With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.


David, David, David (sighs) -

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig...

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Robatoy wrote:

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:


2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".

Why is it important to post this here?


[snipped for brevity]

I really, really, really, really try VERY hard to stay out of these
types of discussions...

BUT....

Once in a blue moon, I stumble upon an article that sums up a few of my
sentiments. This article (rant) will likely get the author killed as he
****es off just about every religion on the planet, but dammit, he makes
you think. (Made *me* think, anyway..but then again..I had time to think
today.)
I don't see this article as anything more than a poignant illustration
just exactly how ****ed up we all are...depending where you come from,
of course. Killing for peace has always been difficult for me to
reconcile, even though I acknowledge the need for it sometimes.

http://tinyurl.com/82v3l


Well, let's see now. Setting aside the entirely inappropriate, rude,
and vicious tone of this rant, let's review the rather significant
*good* things the religions he mentions have accomplished:

- It was the Muslim Moors who rediscovered and preserved the ancient Greek
philosophers' writings that otherwise would be lost to us after the
burning of the library at Alexandria. They did this because
*their religious tradition* respected this sort of thing.

- It was primarily people acting out of *religious* (Judeo-Christian)
conviction that finally ended Slavery for most of the world. Slavery
had been around for most of the 10,000 or so recorded years of history,
but it took people of Faith to end it once-and-for-all in the 19th
Century. They were so effective, Slavery today is almost non-existent
except in *atheist* totalitarian states and a few remaining tribal
cultures in Africa (where the "relgion" at best is animist or
pantheist with little or no personal moral component). Certainly
there is far, far less of it then ever in human history.

- It was primarily and directly as a consequence of Christian missionaries
that modern medicine and literacy were introduced to the undeveloped
world in South America and Africa. There is precious little medical
infrastructure in Africa today, but there would likely be even less or
none had it not been for these early missionaries. For the record,
a significant number of them were murdered in the early going by the
locals, but people of Faith kept going back until they were able to help.

- In the 20th Century, especially the Cold War, it was the outcry of
devout Christians and Jews that kept the human rights abuses in the
Soviet Union and China on the front burner of popular conscience.
Some of these people risked their lives to smuggle not only religious
literature into these countries, but also humanitarian aid. I have
met and know some of these people personally. They are remarkably
brave, devout, and humble people, rather unlike the author of the
rant you seem to admire so much.

- As we speak, Christian missionaries are regularly reducing spoken
languages into written form all over the world in places like
Indonesia. Yes, their motives are religious, but they alone
endure the personal hardship, physical risks, and deprivations
required to live among native peoples to usher them into an age
of literacy. You pretty much never see pompous atheists like
the author above making any such sacrifices in the interest of
others.

- Jewish and Christian charities account for a huge percentage of
humanitarian outreach such as famine relief, post disaster
aid, and so on. While the UN sits on its hands and gives
its members the opportunity to steal Oil-For-Food money,
organizations like the Salvation Army, Jewish Charities, and
World Vision, quietly toil away to alleviate the suffering of
people not lucky enough to be born in a place so sophisticated
that Faith in a Deity is dismissed as "insanity".

Yes, there have been abuses of religious power from the ancient Egypt to
the Spanish Inquisition to Tammy Faye Baker. But *all* human
institutions are at risk for this. The Soviet atheists alone were guilty
of murdering north of 20 Million people in about 3 years before WWII
even got started. Show me *any* religion with that degree of foul
behavior.

One does not have to be personally religious or devout to acknowledge
the many very real contributions of religious Faith to the human
experience. To dismiss all people of Faith as fools, charlatans, and
criminally insane is both factually in error and in rather poor taste.
But that's OK. Anyone who has to rant the way this author did, is none
too sure of their position. You pretty much never see anyone running
around screaming, "The sun is going to rise tomorrow." People who are
convinced of their own positions don't need to pee on everyone else's.
This author is a fool - and a rude one at that ...

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Swingman wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.

With all due respect, and from one old soldier to another, were not the
first Trade Center bombing, the Cole, and 911, just to name a few, all _pre_
Iraq?

Swing, not ignoring answering, but so busy I haven't had time. Yeah,
all that as pre-Iraq, but, so far, I've seen no proof that any of it
involved Iraq any more than it did, say, Saudi Arabia and Iran.


Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.

A good case can be made that that depends upon how you much you choose to
believe what you read and hear from a media whose survival is predicated
upon hyperbole, sensationalism, and tragedy.

Or form an Administration that has consistently proven it is unable, or
unwilling, to tell the truth.

Another good case can be made that suicide/homicide bombings are acts of
desperation, and desperation fairly indicates a cause on the losing end.

From your point of view, and mine, sure. I am not at all sure anything
we consider a rational POV from radical Islamists is likely to ever
crop up. The Japanese used these tactics, to a degree and without
generally involving civilians, during WWII, but I don't immediately
recall if anyone else ever has (of course, in the good old days,
pre-gunpowder, such tactics didn't exist, but since then...and, as I
recall, the Hashasheens [sp?] is an Arabic invention that also uses the
promise of whatever number of houris in Paradise for those willing to
die for, according to the person sending them out, Allah, so suicide
attacks did exist pre-gunpowder but were far less effective, if that's
the word).


From my POV, the International picture has never been all that rosy since
Genghis Kahn, but perhaps it is not as bad as some would want you to
believe?

Always in a turmoil. Yeah, the old, supposedly Chinese curse, "May you
live in interesting times" seems to apply to just about any time in
history, except for a fortunate few people at any one time who are just
uninvolved.

Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the beginning
of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...

Hope yours is a good one also.

Gorgeous day yesterday. I spent much of it shooting a 1934 SS1, the
Swallow Standard precursor to the Jaguar...this was the first one with
Jaguar actually on the nameplate under the hood, if not on the
exterior. Incredible car and I am delighted with the photos, but am so
sore this morning I can hardly move (a lot of kneeling, lying down,
climbing ladders to get the shots).

Swingman wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message

Somehow, I have a feeling this is the best time of year in much of
Texas.

It is ... just walked in from opening the doors on the shop and it was a
perfect 59. Nice to be able to work without ending the day looking like a
harness lathered plow horse.

It usually is, here, too, but it's been kind of weird this year,
warm late and almost no color to be seen in the woods. We drove up on
the Blue Ridge Parkway yesterday, took the dog and the camera scouting
sites to shoot classic cars, and my wife brought snacks. The wind was
so strong I thought it would blow our hair off when we located a table.
One thing for sure, there was no competition for the picnic tables
anywhere we stopped!

We basically have two colors here in Texas, live and dead. The wife's from
AR and keeps telling me how pretty the colors are this time of year ...
unfortunately, that's one of life's little pleasures entirely lost on me.

My favorite summer time locale in the US thus far is Wisconsin, up around
Cable.

When you get time (yeah, right), give almost anywhere in Vermont or New
Hampshire a try. Maine ain't all that bad either. Stay out of all of
them in December, January, February and March. After Tax Day, the
weather moderates. June is horrible in Maine--black flies. I think
they're the same thing we call deer flies, but millions more, and they
raise a welt the size of a silver dollar.

David Sizemore wrote:
That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.

RIGHT.......WTC was bombed TWICE since then. ****in GWB and his damned
money grabbin war!

Huh? What does the WTC have to do with Iraq? Plotters out of
Afghanistan and most of the people taking part were Saudi.


While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
ignoring the problem altogether.

I think it takes education. Let's all get together and educate them
folks that "DEATH TO AMERICA" ain't right.

There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam.

Wow!! what a wonderful poll. was it before or after the torture
stopped? Before or after the polls closed?

Uh,last week or the week before? I don't know. Had the torture stopped
then?

Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.

Bully for you. Of course we don't belong there, silly. That's why we
are carrying guns. We did have a responsibility to the world to get
rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
the next elected warlord is not just as bad. Saddam bad. We all know
it. We all knew something had to be done. You chose to sit back and
wring your hands, distraught over what would happen. Others decided
that enough was enough.

Saddam bad? WTF does that have to do with the supposed reasons we used
for invading Iraq?

Wring my hands? Others decided? Well, you got the second part right.


Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.

With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.

WTF do the Kuwaitis have to do with this?

You've got a problem with coherence, in both thought and expression.

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
David Sizemore wrote:

That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago.


RIGHT.......WTC was bombed TWICE since then. ****in GWB and his damned
money grabbin war!


While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
ignoring the problem altogether.


I think it takes education. Let's all get together and educate them
folks that "DEATH TO AMERICA" ain't right.


There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam.


Wow!! what a wonderful poll. was it before or after the torture
stopped? Before or after the polls closed?


Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.


Bully for you. Of course we don't belong there, silly. That's why we
are carrying guns. We did have a responsibility to the world to get
rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
the next elected warlord is not just as bad. Saddam bad. We all know
it. We all knew something had to be done. You chose to sit back and
wring your hands, distraught over what would happen. Others decided
that enough was enough.


Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.


With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.


David, David, David (sighs) -

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig...

Oh, dear. Tim doesn't like me.

Thank you, Tim.

True, the Japanese had a different way of dealing with civilians

I suggest you google "nanking", where the Imperial Japanese soldiers
tossed infants into the air and caught them on bayonetts, raped the
women, and officers had "beheading" contests. Then talk to the
indigenous Okinawans about being herded into caves to be bombed as part
of a PR campaign, while the Emporer tried to find a way to "surrender
with honor"

See how honorable the Japanese were?

David Sizemore wrote:

We did have a responsibility to the world to get
rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
the next elected warlord is not just as bad.


I thought "manifest destiny" had died.



Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.


With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.


What information? Just about every Iraqi interviewed, except for
members of the puppet government. Seems like all of them (except the
Sunnis) are glad Saddam is gone, but... And that "but" leads to a long
list of things that were better then than now. Like electricity and
drinkable water. Like gasoline. Like public safety. And most of all,
like no foreign invaders settling in for a long stay.

And what relevance do Kuwaitis opinions of conditions in Iraq have?

The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
No the were busy crashing planes into buildings.
TWS

I posted a question to Tom concerning Radical Islam, an honest
question. It had nothing to do with US policy at any time. I have
enough education to post my questions. If you want to bitch sing your
song do it but don't quote my posts and attribute anything to it
other the what it was.
A question about, READ: WHAT CAN THE COLLECTIVE PLANET DO TO PROTTECT
ITS CHILDREN FROM A FORM OF RADICAL ISLAM THAT CALLS FOR THE
CONFERSION TO FAITH OR DEATH OF ALL INFIDELS? If it will make you
feel better No f**king war will do anything but change the locations
of the killing fields. Don't inject or read anything into that beyond
that. I posted in the thread about Iraq only because of Tom and
wanting to know what he thought, there is no hidden agenda.

Like many during the 60's I was not in a position to smoke dope in
Canada. Instead I got my ass drafted and like many before me I went
to try and stay alive. I left the minds with a higher understanding of
right and wrong to sort out the "f**king mess". First thing I did was
get F**king Shot. And when I was medivac back stateside I watched on
TV as all the people of higher minds and values marched in the
streets to save people like me from dying in a foreign country as we
carried out our countries's "egotism".

I was in rehab for 6 months and in that time not one f**king higher
mind came to share their thoughts and prayers. I never got to enjoy
free love or smoke dope while singing Teach your Children at a CSNY
concert. Why? I'm no Senators Son.

But the one thing I learned was, the people who really care about the
world and the human condition take a hell of lot more action then
shooting off their mouths in a woodworking forum. Or marching down the
street with their hand in Suzy Creamcheeses pants while patting each
other on the back for their higher minds and values.

People with "higher minds and values" take risks. The corpsman whose
values won't let him pick up a gun and dies saving the lives of people
who do. The thousands of volunteers teaching people how to fish so
they can feed themselves. The medical volunteers serving throughout
the world helping where governments won't. You want to see caring, go
look at the volunteers at a geriatric ward. That place where we send
our old when they get in the way of higher ideas. There are so many
ways to make a difference but I don't think political diatribes
posted to a woodworking forum serve anything but to inflate your
already bloated self image. But then, that's what higher minds do
best, talk and get higher.

That's the most I have ever said, you folks can keep masturbating
each other in the rec. I will killfile this thread as I have with most
of thew other garbage.

I will head out to my shop to enjoy my 1000bf of walnut, paid for by
disability payments from an injury I received while being too stupid
to stay out the way of a higher moral belief system.

And in the end I want to be buried with my face down,so all the higher
moral minds can kiss my fat shotup ass goodby.

Ed

wrote:
The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
No the were busy crashing planes into buildings.
TWS

I posted a question to Tom concerning Radical Islam, an honest
question. It had nothing to do with US policy at any time. I have
enough education to post my questions. If you want to bitch sing your
song do it but don't quote my posts and attribute anything to it
other the what it was.
A question about, READ: WHAT CAN THE COLLECTIVE PLANET DO TO PROTTECT
ITS CHILDREN FROM A FORM OF RADICAL ISLAM THAT CALLS FOR THE
CONFERSION TO FAITH OR DEATH OF ALL INFIDELS? If it will make you
feel better No f**king war will do anything but change the locations
of the killing fields. Don't inject or read anything into that beyond
that. I posted in the thread about Iraq only because of Tom and
wanting to know what he thought, there is no hidden agenda.

Like many during the 60's I was not in a position to smoke dope in
Canada. Instead I got my ass drafted and like many before me I went
to try and stay alive. I left the minds with a higher understanding of
right and wrong to sort out the "f**king mess". First thing I did was
get F**king Shot. And when I was medivac back stateside I watched on
TV as all the people of higher minds and values marched in the
streets to save people like me from dying in a foreign country as we
carried out our countries's "egotism".

I was in rehab for 6 months and in that time not one f**king higher
mind came to share their thoughts and prayers. I never got to enjoy
free love or smoke dope while singing Teach your Children at a CSNY
concert. Why? I'm no Senators Son.

But the one thing I learned was, the people who really care about the
world and the human condition take a hell of lot more action then
shooting off their mouths in a woodworking forum. Or marching down the
street with their hand in Suzy Creamcheeses pants while patting each
other on the back for their higher minds and values.

People with "higher minds and values" take risks. The corpsman whose
values won't let him pick up a gun and dies saving the lives of people
who do. The thousands of volunteers teaching people how to fish so
they can feed themselves. The medical volunteers serving throughout
the world helping where governments won't. You want to see caring, go
look at the volunteers at a geriatric ward. That place where we send
our old when they get in the way of higher ideas. There are so many
ways to make a difference but I don't think political diatribes
posted to a woodworking forum serve anything but to inflate your
already bloated self image. But then, that's what higher minds do
best, talk and get higher.

That's the most I have ever said, you folks can keep masturbating
each other in the rec. I will killfile this thread as I have with most
of thew other garbage.

I will head out to my shop to enjoy my 1000bf of walnut, paid for by
disability payments from an injury I received while being too stupid
to stay out the way of a higher moral belief system.

And in the end I want to be buried with my face down,so all the higher
moral minds can kiss my fat shotup ass goodby.


While I don't support the politicians who have mired us in Islamic
Terror Territory more deeply than we need to be, I think the following
might well be worth consideration:

"The average age of the military man is 19 years.
He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances
is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the
ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his
country.
He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car
than wash his father's; but he has never collected unemployment either.
He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student,
pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy,
and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left,
or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away.
He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and
155mm Howitzers.
He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because
he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk.
He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but
he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time
in the dark.
He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade
launcher and use either one effectively if he must.
He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a
professional.
He can march until he is told to stop or stop until he is told to
march.
He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without
spirit or individual dignity.
He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and
wears the other.
He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.
He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle.
He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts.
If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry,
his food.
He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when
you run low.
He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were
his hands.
He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job.
He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and
still find ironic humor in it all.
He has seen more suffering and death then he should have in his short
lifetime.
He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them.
He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in
combat and is unashamed.
He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body
while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to
'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove
their hat, or even stop talking. In an odd twist, day in and day out,
far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.
Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is
paying the price for our freedom.
Beardless or not, he is not a boy.
He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for
over 200 years.
He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and
understanding.
Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with
his blood."

Semper fi

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:58:35 -0700, wrote:

The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
No the were busy crashing planes into buildings.
TWS

I posted a question to Tom concerning Radical Islam, an honest
question. It had nothing to do with US policy at any time. I have
enough education to post my questions. If you want to bitch sing your
song do it but don't quote my posts and attribute anything to it
other the what it was.

I was referring to the OP's thread, not yours. Sorry if this offends
you.

snip of rest of rant

In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Well, let's see now. Setting aside the entirely inappropriate, rude,
and vicious tone of this rant, let's review the rather significant
*good* things the religions he mentions have accomplished:

First things first.
I learned a long time ago to be on the look-out for red herrings and
straw men.
I do not admire the writer, please don't use the old transparent
"discredit/shoot the messenger" routine. I posted the link to that rant
to illustrate the ridiculousness in what motivates some people to chose
certain paths to destroy themselves and others. Irony with an edge.
Sorry you missed my point.

I have read your posts in the past with a great deal of interest and I
appreciate your reply again this time. You are absolutely correct that
many wonderful things have been done by selfless, committed religious
people. I am aware of that. To use your words: I have
met and know some of these people personally. They are remarkably
brave, devout, and humble people, [snip]

What are the odds of Bush becoming the poster boy for a religious
faction doing the right thing?