I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.

I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.

A smaller diameter push stick - I know cats only come furry and round but a
bit of broom handle will do - even if you cut it on the rip.
Alternately, cut the length of stock overlength then you can poke it in far
enough for the piece you want to cut on the angle.
Turn the saw off and retract it & cut the length back to what you want.
Good luck.
Jock

"RayV" wrote in message
oups.com...
|I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
| build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
| strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
|
| I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
| left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
| the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
| blade and the fence on the right.
|
| Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
| I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
| so good, or so I thought.
|
| I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
| because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
| piece through from the back of the saw.
|
| I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
| buying a new tool.
|

"RayV" wrote in message
oups.com...
I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.

I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.


Push blocks. Narrow versions of what came with your jointer. Pieces of 3/4
stock, for instance, cut with handholds fore and aft, three-four inches
above the flat portion. Glue a chunk of mouse pad or other resilient
material to the flat bottom of one to use as both hold and push, leave a
1/4" hook on the heel of the other for the final.

Paint them some flashy color so they won't just look like another piece of
scrap and store them with your other push sticks on a shelf right of the saw
where you can grab one as required even if you forgot to preposition them.
Right next to the featherboards, for instance.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:31:14 -0500, "Battleax"
wrote:


"RayV" wrote in message
roups.com...
I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.

I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.


So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?

Not that this is any proof, but the guy that peddles (peddled?) the
Grip-Tite magnetic featherboard at woodworking shows used to do that
all the time as part of the demo.

I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
impunity.

What would be the safety issue, anyway? If the blade snatched the work
(unlikely with the featherboard), the worst that could happen is a
spear gets propelled across the shop, but the operator is well out of
the line of fire being at the back of the saw or on his way to it.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"LRod" wrote in message

I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
impunity.

I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have
to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1). If it's
a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go past the
end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2). If that doesn't
happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure off the edge of
the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3) There's also the
possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting the blade, causing
him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).

In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full
control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible
problems as far as I'm concerned.

"RayV" wrote in message
oups.com...
I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.

I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.


So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:21:24 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message

I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
impunity.

I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have
to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1).

When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through
the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is
unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in
place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly
susceptible to any forces the saw might otherwise impart while it's
not moving, safe.

If it's a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go
past the end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2).

How is that any different than the long board extending past the front
end of the fence at the beginning of the cut? Think quality of
operator technique.

If that doesn't happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure
off the edge of the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3)

How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to
the board at the infeed side? Think quality of operator technique.

There's also the possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting
the blade, causing him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).

Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you
started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.

In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full
control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible
problems as far as I'm concerned.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your assessment, and no one can
dictate what practices YOU should feel safe with and implement in YOUR
shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does
that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't
imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed
that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.

Moreover, I learned in a discussion on another forum that sometimes
other factors are involved. I was in a table saw safety discussion
with someone, thinking we were on the same page so far as basic
premises were concerned, until the other party revealed that he was so
afraid of using his saw that he bought a power feeder for it. That
changed the entire tenor of the discussion. Well, ended it actually.
There wasn't any point in me continuing.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

LRod wrote:

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:21:24 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message

I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
impunity.

I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have
to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1).


When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through
the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is
unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in
place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly
susceptible to any forces the saw might otherwise impart while it's
not moving, safe.


If it's a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go
past the end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2).


How is that any different than the long board extending past the front
end of the fence at the beginning of the cut? Think quality of
operator technique.


If that doesn't happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure
off the edge of the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3)


How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to
the board at the infeed side? Think quality of operator technique.


There's also the possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting
the blade, causing him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).


Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you
started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.


In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full
control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible
problems as far as I'm concerned.


Well, you're certainly entitled to your assessment, and no one can
dictate what practices YOU should feel safe with and implement in YOUR
shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does
that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't
imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed
that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.

Moreover, I learned in a discussion on another forum that sometimes
other factors are involved. I was in a table saw safety discussion
with someone, thinking we were on the same page so far as basic
premises were concerned, until the other party revealed that he was so
afraid of using his saw that he bought a power feeder for it. That
changed the entire tenor of the discussion. Well, ended it actually.
There wasn't any point in me continuing.


hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE? At least with a
kickback when one is standing WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, their hand
won't be drawn into the blade. The worse that would happen is a blunt
force injury or damage to items in the shop from the resultant airborne
missile. But no AMPUTATION.

Dave

I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

-John

"LRod" wrote in message
When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through
the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is
unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in
place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly

It's not completely stable. As well, I've left wood unattended for a few
seconds while the blade is spining. It's often burned the wood or otherwise
marred a clean edge.

How is that any different than the long board extending past the front
end of the fence at the beginning of the cut?

When you're in front pushing the board through, one can safely put a little
lateral pressure against the fence. When you're pulling it out from the
back, you can only grab it to pull when it's past the table edge and beyond
the fence a little after that. A little sideways lateral pulling the wrong
way and it's skewed.

How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to
the board at the infeed side?

When you're in front, you can push it onto an outfeed table. When you're in
back, you're in front of the outfeed table aren't you? If you're pushing it
from the side, it's more of an awkward motion. (and yes, I've done it
before)

Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you
started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.

You'd be completely wrong. I do all my cutting from one position without
moving around, but not for any of the reasons that you might consider. As
well, this is all about control. Walking around while feeding (or pulling a
board) through a tablesaw is increasing the chances for something
unfortunate to happen. And yes, I know some do it all the time.

Something else has occurred to me too. Considering the rotation direction of
the blade, unless you're using an enclosed cabinet saw with a full dust
cover over the blade, you're going be exposed to various bits of wood dust
and splinters shooting up in your direction if you're at the back of the
saw.

shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does
that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't
imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed
that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.

Sure there are other methods that can be considered safe, but consider this.
Tablesaws have been around for a long time. If pulling a board through a saw
was comparably safe as pushing one through, there would be quite a few more
people advocating it than there are. Until I hear from a number of those
people, your single (so far) support for pulling from the back isn't going
to cut it for me. No offence is intended against you with this statement.

In article ,
"Jock" wrote:

Alternately, cut the length of stock overlength then you can poke it in far
enough for the piece you want to cut on the angle.
Turn the saw off and retract it & cut the length back to what you want.
Good luck.

That is the way I do it. I cut a lot of 3 1/2" wide strips, to create a
full bevel on both sides. (I glue these under my seams in solid surface
fabrication.)

I make them longer that I need... then stop the saw. Pull out and cut to
length.
I always put my fence to the left of the blade..that way nothing gets
pinched between the blade and the fence.

Battleax wrote:

"RayV" wrote in message
oups.com...

I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.

I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.



So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?


think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

Dave

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David wrote:

hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?

Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:


think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:28:09 -0500, Australopithecus scobis
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:24 -0700, John Girouard wrote:

Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

Trick I picked up in an Aikido class: Your index finger hangs on until you
will it to let go. Your other fingers will let go on their own. Something
about swinging in the trees, I suppose. Anyway, if you do want to try the
pulling technique, just hold with your other fingers. (I have no opinion
on the TS technique part of the discussion.) Keep the tip in mind for any
situation where hanging on would be the wrong thing to do in an emergency.

Nevertheless, see my response to David. Think tablecloth and fully set
table, index finger and evolution notwithstanding.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

John Girouard wrote:

I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

-John


I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)

http://tinyurl.com/a7edu

--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD

Donnie Vazquez wrote:
John Girouard wrote:

I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

-John


I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)

http://tinyurl.com/a7edu

--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD

according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
different animal.

RayV wrote:
I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d

45 seems a bit steep for a french cleat. it's enough that the cabinet
is trying to wedge the cleat off of the wall. I generally go more like
20 or 30 degrees. you really just need to keep the cabinet from
shifting forward off of the cleat.


and put the fence on the
left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for
the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the
blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left,
I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far
so good, or so I thought.

sounds right so far.




I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut
because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the
piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from
buying a new tool.



as long as your featherboards are set up right, this is just fine. it's
a method I use with lots of stationary machinery, not just the table
saw.

I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had
sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite
guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with
impunity.

hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE? At least with a
kickback when one is standing WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, their hand
won't be drawn into the blade. The worse that would happen is a blunt
force injury or damage to items in the shop from the resultant airborne
missile. But no AMPUTATION.



if the workpiece was short, I'd say there was danger of having your
hands pulled into the blade in case of a kickback. but then, if the
board was short, he wouldn't have had to go around and pull in the
first place. ripping short boards is always risky. but this was a long
board. with a long board, pulling from the back, you are far enough
from the blade that the wood is gonna get pulled out of your hands
first.

second, he was using a featherboard. while I suppose it is possible to
get a kickback with a featherboard, kickback prevention is one of the
things that featherboards are designed to prevent.


besides, where was it written that you gotta stand in a certain place
only when you use a saw. where I'm SUPPOSED TO BE is where _I_ decide
is safe/effective for the operation at hand. with appropriate stock
control I stop feed and change position frequently with some operations
and have for years with no AMPUTATIONs.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:


think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.

--


Besides if you have the blade guard on, the chances of a kickback is less
and if you're pulling from the back, the worse is you hands smashing into
the blade guard. I don't want to push the piece into the blade guard since I
don't have a clear vision under the guard. I guess we are assuming most of
us don't use blade gards which includes me as well.

I've been ripping long narrow (1/4" or less) this morning and pulling from
the back - seems to me it's safer to pull from the back than push into the
blade with only 1/4" or less clearance. But I could be wrong but lucky for
25 years.

As far as pulling from the back I see contractors do that all the time even
see them doing it on the home improvement shows. For long pieces I don't
think I've seen a contractor pushing it all the way and a some point he is
going to go around and pull it - it just seem like a natural process but
again could be wrong technique. I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:


think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.


I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time with
longer pieces of wood.

-j

LRod wrote:

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David wrote:


hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?


Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..

Tell you what. Why don't you run an experiment to test your hypothesis?
If it fails, have someone type up the results for us.
Dave

LRod wrote:

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David wrote:


hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?


Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..


did you read Donnie's post? I rest my case...

Dave

bridger wrote:

Donnie Vazquez wrote:

John Girouard wrote:


I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

-John


I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)

http://tinyurl.com/a7edu

--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD


according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
different animal.

No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
into the blade.

Dave

Fred wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:



think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.

--



Besides if you have the blade guard on, the chances of a kickback is less
and if you're pulling from the back, the worse is you hands smashing into
the blade guard. I don't want to push the piece into the blade guard since I
don't have a clear vision under the guard. I guess we are assuming most of
us don't use blade gards which includes me as well.

I've been ripping long narrow (1/4" or less) this morning and pulling from
the back - seems to me it's safer to pull from the back than push into the
blade with only 1/4" or less clearance. But I could be wrong but lucky for
25 years.

As far as pulling from the back I see contractors do that all the time even
see them doing it on the home improvement shows. For long pieces I don't
think I've seen a contractor pushing it all the way and a some point he is
going to go around and pull it - it just seem like a natural process but
again could be wrong technique. I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.


One of the FEW kickbacks I've had on my Unisaw came within the first day
or two of firing it up. The guard's plastic shield rested on the
workpiece at an angle due to the narrowness of the piece and forced it
to twist, resulting in a horrendous kickback. Right after that
incident, after I evaluated why it happened, I removed the offending
part. I rarely (not NEVER; just RARELY) use a splitter either. I can
see where the blade is, and I keep my precious fingers WELL away from
it. I use push blocks and push sticks.

Good technique prevents kickbacks except for the case of relieved
tension in a board that jambs it between the fence and blade.

I'm not suggestion that YOU go sans guard. Just reporting how I prefer
to run MY TS.

YMMV.


Dave

LRod wrote:


Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..


I've seen the trick and have even tried it. I prefer to keep my china
and fingers intact.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:36:08 -0700, David wrote:

bridger wrote:

Donnie Vazquez wrote:

John Girouard wrote:


I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

-John


I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)

http://tinyurl.com/a7edu

--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD


according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
different animal.

No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
into the blade.

Clearly you do not comprehend the mechanics of the incident.

OP was standing in front of the saw (normal position). He was pushing
a large block of wood through with one hand. He reached up and pushed
the far end of the wood DOWN past the blade. Then the kickback
occured. Regardless of how he wrote the description it is clear that
the far hand DROPPED onto the blade rather than was pulled, OR the
momentum of his pushing hand being pushed back along with his body
drew the other hand back. The wood did not pull his hand back. That
defies physics and logic.

Besides, that is NOT the operation we're discussing. We're discussing
standing behind the saw, pulling on a piece of wood. Try your own SAFE
experiment. Take a piece of wood; 1x3 would be typical for the
operation being discussed, but suit yourself. Grab it with one hand as
if you were pulling it through saw (that means no death grip) and have
SWMBO or #1 kid suddenly yank the other end (just like a kickback
would). I defy you to keep a grip, much less be pulled toward him/her.

Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

LRod wrote:

snip

Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.

You go first.

Dave

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:23:27 -0700, "J" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:


think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.


I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time with
longer pieces of wood.

I don't think anyone suggested this with a short board. I certainly
didn't and wouldn't.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"David" wrote in message
...
LRod wrote:

snip

Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.

You go first.

Dave

I may be sorry I jumped in here... but here goes.

He wasn't suggesting you use a saw, just another person . You hold the
board, someone else pulls it out of your hands.

No one around? GD&R
Tom

"bridger" wrote in message
oups.com...

RayV wrote:
I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me
build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum
strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...
snippage


as long as your featherboards are set up right, this is just fine. it's
a method I use with lots of stationary machinery, not just the table
saw.


A breath of fresh air, succinct and well stated!
Tom
(who also is guilty of pulling his piece(s) occasionally
{Don't even go there}
Tom

LRod wrote:

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:36:08 -0700, David wrote:


bridger wrote:


Donnie Vazquez wrote:


John Girouard wrote:



I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.

-John


I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)

http://tinyurl.com/a7edu

--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD


according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
different animal.


No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
into the blade.


Clearly you do not comprehend the mechanics of the incident.

OP was standing in front of the saw (normal position). He was pushing
a large block of wood through with one hand. He reached up and pushed
the far end of the wood DOWN past the blade. Then the kickback
occured. Regardless of how he wrote the description it is clear that
the far hand DROPPED onto the blade rather than was pulled, OR the
momentum of his pushing hand being pushed back along with his body
drew the other hand back. The wood did not pull his hand back. That
defies physics and logic.

Besides, that is NOT the operation we're discussing. We're discussing
standing behind the saw, pulling on a piece of wood. Try your own SAFE
experiment. Take a piece of wood; 1x3 would be typical for the
operation being discussed, but suit yourself. Grab it with one hand as
if you were pulling it through saw (that means no death grip) and have
SWMBO or #1 kid suddenly yank the other end (just like a kickback
would). I defy you to keep a grip, much less be pulled toward him/her.

Report the results to us. You can type them yourself.


Wrong, I was pushing down lightly with my left hand on the back of the
board behind the blade, while pushing with my right hand. The kickback
most definitely pulled my left hand back through the blade. Not down on
top. Physics and logic aside, that's what happened, and it all happened
in the blink of an eye.

--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:02:31 -0400, Donnie Vazquez
wrote:


Wrong, I was pushing down lightly with my left hand on the back of the
board behind the blade, while pushing with my right hand. The kickback
most definitely pulled my left hand back through the blade. Not down on
top. Physics and logic aside, that's what happened, and it all happened
in the blink of an eye.

Nevertheless, what you were doing and what the OP was doing are two
entirely different operations. I stand by my assertion that it is not
possible for one's hand(s) to be pulled into the blade from a kickback
while pulling the work through from the back of the saw, your
experience under completely circumstances notwithstanding..

It's the same reason I was taught not to ever have one's hands on the
workpiece over the cutterhead when operating a jointer. Kickback,
board goes, hand stays, love grows...oops, a '60s flashback there.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:13:38 +0100, LRod wrote:

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:37:11 -0700, David wrote:

hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would
happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on
the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE?

Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth
off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same
prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born)
that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in
sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..

.... or, given that one were to be performing such an operation and
realizing the potential danger, not pulling the wood through with a death
grip on the piece. i.e., a soft touch.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

I was doing this with some pine I was ripping down.
When I got to the core the wood was quite weak. The saw grabbed it and shot
it across the room. Wow. I was surprised. But then again I was on the other
side so my heart was hardly beating any faster. It did NOT suck me into the
saw.

This discussion is silly. People pull wood through tablesaws all the time.
It is no less safe than pushing it.

-j


"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:23:27 -0700, "J" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:


think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand
into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through?
DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.


I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time
with
longer pieces of wood.

I don't think anyone suggested this with a short board. I certainly
didn't and wouldn't.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Unlikely and not possible are two different things.

I think in the example given the operator had enough mechanical control over
(from featherboards) the board that kickback would be very unlikely. But
for now lets just look at pulling the board through in general.

I agree that it's very unlikely that you'd be pulled into the saw horror
movie style, however there is still a chance that the board could 'move'
your hands towards or into the blade.

I have seen the example of the Table cloth magic trick used many times in
this discussion. Has anyone seen it done wrong, ever try it and sent mom's
tuperware all over the kitchen? The cloth has to be pulled straight back
for this to work. Your example of the jointer 'kickback' is the same, the
jointer will push the board directly back. So the tablecloth analogy is
applicable. In a tablesaw the board is also lifted and twisted during
kickback (as compared to an ejection, where the board shoots back out of the
saw). So the neither anolgy is really applicable.

I think it would depend on many factors: like how far behind the blade you
are holding the board, other safety equipment being used... Blah, blah,
blah... What it comes down to is ensuring that we are safe at our saws.
It's not enough to 'feel safe' and play the 'it's unlikely to happen game',
we must ask ourselves two basic questions: Where are my fingers? & In
which position do we have the most control of the work piece? Ultimatley if
we control the work peice and don't run our fingers into the blade we should
have a safe cut. There are lots of people that don't use splitter or guards
that do it everyday.

Safe Sawing

Buster

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:02:31 -0400, Donnie Vazquez
wrote:


Wrong, I was pushing down lightly with my left hand on the back of the
board behind the blade, while pushing with my right hand. The kickback
most definitely pulled my left hand back through the blade. Not down on
top. Physics and logic aside, that's what happened, and it all happened
in the blink of an eye.

Nevertheless, what you were doing and what the OP was doing are two
entirely different operations. I stand by my assertion that it is not
possible for one's hand(s) to be pulled into the blade from a kickback
while pulling the work through from the back of the saw, your
experience under completely circumstances notwithstanding..

It's the same reason I was taught not to ever have one's hands on the
workpiece over the cutterhead when operating a jointer. Kickback,
board goes, hand stays, love grows...oops, a '60s flashback there.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"Donnie Vazquez" wrote in message
...
No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand was
pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn into
the blade.


Clearly you do not comprehend the mechanics of the incident.

OP was standing in front of the saw (normal position). He was pushing
a large block of wood through with one hand. He reached up and pushed
the far end of the wood DOWN past the blade. Then the kickback
occured. Regardless of how he wrote the description it is clear that
the far hand DROPPED onto the blade rather than was pulled, OR the
momentum of his pushing hand being pushed back along with his body
drew the other hand back. The wood did not pull his hand back. That
defies physics and logic.


Physiology supplies a good explanation. The muscles of the arm contracted
as the initial whack was felt - basic reflex. Hand and arm go toward the
body, blade in between.

OW!

Seems like the consensus, if there is one, is this:

"If it feels safe to you, then it IS safe"

I didn't feel safe making the cut the way I did, so I guess I will
need to figure out a better way next time. For the record, it wasn't
pulling the piece from the back that didn't feel right. I have
pulled wood through numerous times before without feeling
uncomfortable. It also wasn't ripping a board at 45d that didn't
feel right. I have done this before with shorter but wider boards.

It was the combination of everything that didn't feel right:
Feather board close to blade
Narrow board I couldn't use a push stick on
Angled rip cut
Board didn't hang off the edge of my outfeed table before I had to
pull it

So, next time I will have to do it differently so I feel safe.

"Can't we all just get along?"
Rodney King

mogura wrote:
I was doing this with some pine I was ripping down.
When I got to the core the wood was quite weak. The saw grabbed it and shot
it across the room. Wow. I was surprised. But then again I was on the other
side so my heart was hardly beating any faster. It did NOT suck me into the
saw.

This discussion is silly. People pull wood through tablesaws all the time.
It is no less safe than pushing it.

-j


"LRod" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:23:27 -0700, "J" wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:18:13 -0700, David wrote:



think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback?
Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be
forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand
into
the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through?
DOH!

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.


I'd be hesitant to do this with a short board, but I do it all the time
with
longer pieces of wood.

I don't think anyone suggested this with a short board. I certainly
didn't and wouldn't.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997



WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.

Dave