Have seen him free hand crosscut. No guard or splitter.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:36:31 -0700, "Fred" wrote:

I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.

nospambob wrote:

Have seen him free hand crosscut. No guard or splitter.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:36:31 -0700, "Fred" wrote:


I wonder has anyone seen Norm pulling from
the back? He doesn't use a blade guard either.


There is a semi-klutzy neighbor a few doors down that sets up his TS on
the sidewalk and does free-hand crosscuts during remodeling chores. I
shudder when I've watched him, as I know he does it out of ignorance;
not practice. I gently suggested he avoid cutting w/o the miter
gauge--my words fell on deaf ears.

I'm a "no guard" kinda guy, though. took mine off after the first nasty
incident due solely to the guard causing a kickback.

Dave

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:18:13 GMT, "Buster" wrote:

I have seen the example of the Table cloth magic trick used many times in
this discussion. Has anyone seen it done wrong, ever try it and sent mom's
tuperware all over the kitchen? The cloth has to be pulled straight back
for this to work. Your example of the jointer 'kickback' is the same, the
jointer will push the board directly back. So the tablecloth analogy is
applicable. In a tablesaw the board is also lifted and twisted during
kickback (as compared to an ejection, where the board shoots back out of the
saw). So the neither anolgy is really applicable.

I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs
to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real
analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers
gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away.
Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly
impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood
in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and
swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:58:34 -0700, nospambob
wrote:

Have seen him free hand crosscut. No guard or splitter.

He's never had a guard or splitter on the saw (nor do 98% of
wreckers), but please cite the episode of The New Yankee Workshop in
which you saw him free hand crosscut.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:09:43 -0700, David wrote:

WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.

WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
pushing.

But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just
like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with
the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the
boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping
on it.

For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the
standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is
appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily
accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate
because the alternative is clearly dangerous.

Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to
pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other
woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their
calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the
operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to
occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to
release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly
not willing to test that theory.




I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm
here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull
away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the
board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link
to some pretty pics :-)




according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened.
this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling.
different animal.



No, the fingers were BEHIND the blade. No matter that his other hand
was pushing. so what. the fact is the hand behind the blade was drawn
into the blade.


but _he_ was standing in front of the saw. there is a huge difference
between standing in front of the saw and reaching over the blade and
standing behind the saw and pulling a board through a featherboard.
you're being deliberately obtuse, BAD.

LRod wrote:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:09:43 -0700, David wrote:


WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.


WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
pushing.

But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just
like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with
the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the
boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping
on it.

For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the
standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is
appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily
accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate
because the alternative is clearly dangerous.

Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to
pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other
woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their
calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.

I doubt you are taking into account how your arms would move during the
split second of shock you would feel when there is an explosive
kickback--the sudden noise and movement could cause you to involuntarily
move your hand into a dangerous spot--namely the blade. THAT'S why I
continue to insist that dragging a board through from the rear isn't
such a hot idea. Obviously we disagree on this point...

Dave

bridger wrote:



but _he_ was standing in front of the saw. there is a huge difference
between standing in front of the saw and reaching over the blade and
standing behind the saw and pulling a board through a featherboard.
you're being deliberately obtuse, BAD.

You can use your saw in any manner you see fit.

You are being deliberately rude, but you already knew that, didn't you?

Dave

In article ,
says...
WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.

WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
pushing.


I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold
the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is
that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow
about 1/4" of backward movement.

And since they hold the board down and against the fence, "kickback" is
just about impossible - "pushback" is as bad as it gets, and as I
said,that's limited to about 1/4".



--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

lgb wrote:

In article ,
says...

WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.

WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
pushing.



I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold
the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is
that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow
about 1/4" of backward movement.

And since they hold the board down and against the fence, "kickback" is
just about impossible - "pushback" is as bad as it gets, and as I
said,that's limited to about 1/4".



I once considered those, but I do too many narrow ripping operations for
a push stick to clear the wheels. Otherwise they look like an effective
safety addition to a TS.

Dave

In article ,
LRod wrote:

I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs
to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real
analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers
gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away.
Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly
impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood
in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and
swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.


Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
circumstances)
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

snip


Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
circumstances)
consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?

Dave

Bay Area David wrote:
I doubt you are taking into account how your arms would move during the
split second of shock you would feel when there is an explosive
kickback--the sudden noise and movement could cause you to involuntarily
move your hand into a dangerous spot--namely the blade. THAT'S why I
continue to insist that dragging a board through from the rear isn't
such a hot idea. Obviously we disagree on this point...

Dave

the danger reflex is to pull your hands in close to your body. if you
are in front of the saw reaching over the blade, that would put your
hands through the blade. if you are behind the saw, pulling a rip
through, the danger reflex moves your hands away from the blade.

RayV wrote:
Seems like the consensus, if there is one, is this:

"If it feels safe to you, then it IS safe"

I didn't feel safe making the cut the way I did, so I guess I will
need to figure out a better way next time. For the record, it wasn't
pulling the piece from the back that didn't feel right. I have
pulled wood through numerous times before without feeling
uncomfortable. It also wasn't ripping a board at 45d that didn't
feel right. I have done this before with shorter but wider boards.

It was the combination of everything that didn't feel right:
Feather board close to blade
Narrow board I couldn't use a push stick on
Angled rip cut
Board didn't hang off the edge of my outfeed table before I had to
pull it

So, next time I will have to do it differently so I feel safe.

"Can't we all just get along?"
Rodney King



here's a sequence that might work better for you. first rip the board
an inch or so wider than you need. then tilt the saw and rip bevel on
one edge. increment the fence as necessary, flip the board and rip
bevel on the other. return the saw to 90 degrees and rip down the
center.

"David" wrote in message
...
Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

snip


Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
circumstances)
consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?

Dave

But you ARE pulling parallel to the ground. There is no other way to pull
it. The table prevents you from pulling down, and common sense prevents you
from lifting it up.

Note: you only pull after you have something on the back side of the blade
to pull on. That is you have pushed halfway through and then pull the rest
of the way.

Also, your hand is typically on the side of the wood so it is on top and the
bottom at the same time.

In article ,
says...
I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold
the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is
that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow
about 1/4" of backward movement.

I once considered those, but I do too many narrow ripping operations for
a push stick to clear the wheels. Otherwise they look like an effective
safety addition to a TS.

Mine just clamp onto the rip fence, so it's fairly easy to
remove them when required. A lot of times I just flip them
up.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

Sorry, I wrote this a little later at night. I will reiterate a little.
You are mostly correct, in the example given I would say you are 99% correct
(I never say 100%). It is VERY unlikely given the fact that the operator in
the original post was in any danger. Considering he used feather boards to
hold the piece in and down it would be unlikely to get kickback in the first
place. The only real 'danger' is when he lets go of the board to move into
his new position behind the table saw.

I agree too that you would have no chance to be pulled into the blade, I
however carefully used the word 'move' rather than pull. If you were
pulling through a smaller board (I left this out and it is an important
point), a kickback could bring your hands in contact with the blade. The
twisting and the lifting would have the effect of pushing the board into
your hands, while at the same point you would have in your mind to push
down. This is a case of looking beyond physics and looking at the body
reaction.

With a longer board, with your hands off the table you are correct and the
danger is small.

However I will maintain this is not a safe way to use the table saw.

1. There is no safe way to start a cut by pulling, which mean the board
will be unattended at some point.

2. Without a featherboard there is no way to maintain pressure against the
fence without reaching over the blade. If your were to apply pressure on
the back you'd be pinching the blade (or splitter) which would not be good.
Plus putting pressure when the end of the board is off the table would
essentially be levering it against the fence. Judgeing by the number of
posters who don't use splitters, I doubt many people use faetherboards.

3. Why bother when you can just use a pushstick.


"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:18:13 GMT, "Buster" wrote:

I have seen the example of the Table cloth magic trick used many times in
this discussion. Has anyone seen it done wrong, ever try it and sent
mom's
tuperware all over the kitchen? The cloth has to be pulled straight back
for this to work. Your example of the jointer 'kickback' is the same, the
jointer will push the board directly back. So the tablecloth analogy is
applicable. In a tablesaw the board is also lifted and twisted during
kickback (as compared to an ejection, where the board shoots back out of
the
saw). So the neither anolgy is really applicable.

I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs
to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real
analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers
gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away.
Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly
impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood
in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and
swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:40:16 -0700, David wrote:

Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

snip


Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
circumstances)
consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?

Dave

Well, in any scenario in which I would be pulling a board from the
outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled
that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from
the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur
since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of
long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:37:54 +0100, LRod wrote:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:09:43 -0700, David wrote:

WRONG! Pulling with your hands is more dangerous than PUSHING with a
pushstick.

WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of
the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of
fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than
pushing.


Just to add fuel to the fire -- has anyone who experienced kickback while
using a push stick ever had the pushstick propelled at them? I have. When
I first got my shaper, I made the mistake while testing one of the profile
bits of having the wood with fingerboards holding the piece against the
fence laterally,but not vertically. I was using a pushstick to guide the
piece, but somehow managed to push just slightly off such that the wood
twisted a bit upward while moving through the cutter. The twist caused a
kickback event -- by design, I was not in the line of fire, but the
kickback pushed the push stick into my arm and caused a fairly nasty gash.
Sooo, just because you are using a push-stick don't think that you have
eliminated all possibilities for injury to yourself.

But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just
like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with
the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the
boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping
on it.

For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the
standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is
appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily
accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate
because the alternative is clearly dangerous.

Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to
pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other
woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their
calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:40:16 -0700, David wrote:


Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

snip


Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong
with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain
circumstances)

consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are
situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board
and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your
hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF
COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?

Dave


Well, in any scenario in which I would be pulling a board from the
outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled
that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from
the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur
since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of
long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
in that case you aren't any where near the blade, so of course you'd be
spared a mishap.

RayV wrote:

OW!


Yea, that's what I said. Among other things :-)
--
Donnie Vazquez
Sunderland, MD

Mark & Juanita wrote:
I would be pulling a board from the
outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled
that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from
the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur
since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of
long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.

David wrote:
in that case you aren't any where near the blade, so of course you'd be
spared a mishap.


Just like the OP....