Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

Yeah, just like that "made in Japan" crap....

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.

In article ,
says...

If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.

Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.

In article , "Leon" wrote:

If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.

The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor - and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental regulation.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep their
surroundings clean.)


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:45:12 -0500, the inscrutable A Concerned
Woodworker spake:

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

Now you can either pay $xxxx for a Paslode nailah made in China or $xx
for a Harbor Freight nailah made in China--perhaps at the same plant.

Your call.

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents ****-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing
business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality
steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.)

I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor.
While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable
of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in Korea
and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The days of
making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.

Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered.
(better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US
companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet.
One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.

"KS" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.

Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or
else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.

Wrong on both counts.
Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal
amount from just about every where.


The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality.

Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with
or settle for.

The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.



There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor.

It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.

It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the
steel was manufactured by over paid workers.

(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)

I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.

Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.


It pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.).


Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.

Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and
quality, we will remain in this situation.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.


Exactly. Now that our country has used most of its cheap natural resources
it has to compete with the rest of the world. Blaming others countries for
doing a job at a reasonable price is not going to fix our problems. Or we
could tax the living day lights out of imported products like imported cars.
I learned that the 90 Acura that my wife and I bought in 1989 would have
been 30% cheaper with out the import tax added.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing
business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality
steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)
It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.)

I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor.
While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable
of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in
Korea and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The
days of making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.

Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered.
(better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US
companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet.
One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.
Among my travels I have visited every province in China, and speak Mandarin
and Cantonese. I had started to think I was the only one who recognized
that China produces low end AND high end products. The product specs define
what components are used, and a skilled worker in a Chinese production
facility is almost certainly a more skilled and experienced worker than the
counterpart in a U.S. plant, but probably also better educated, as well.
You only have to go into some of the U.S. factories -- especially in the SE
U.S., to realize how little education or work ethic "our" workers have.

Side thoughts -- (a) if Chinese tools are so bad, how is it that Chinese
wood products -- especially wood carved products -- or of such exceptional
quality?

(b) Perhaps it's a lack of government (e.g., OSHA) interference. The
Heritage Foundation a few years ago found that in terms of economic freedom,
a Chinese special administration area placed first (MOST free!) in the
world. Singapore was second. The U.S. placed fourth.

(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a
world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better
handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese
product?

(d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which
lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these
unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not
motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a
political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.

Regards --

Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.


Depends on your management structure. Sometimes they actually do earn their
keep. Not saying every company is but I sub to a company thats lean and pays
well, management and labor both but that is a pretty involved story and one
you don't hear very often. The problem lies more in the definition of
skilled labor. I know a guy that works in a GM manufacturing plant that
makes about $32 an hour to stick a bolt in a threaded insert and buzz it
down with an impact wrench I have seen PBS specials that demonstrate monkeys
can work at a higher capacity. Don't take it the wrong way, I like Tim and
am glad he has a good paying job. I do bite my tongue every time he bitches
about jobs going overseas though. Compared to another fella I know that
makes about the same money working high steel you really do have to wonder
about the definition of skilled worker. Me I'm management and labor all
rolled into one so I don't really have a good opinion.....

Knothead

In article , "Leon" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or
else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.

Wrong on both counts.
Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal
amount from just about every where.

Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to
distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend that
the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par with
those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?


The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality.

Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with
or settle for.

Speak for yourself. *Some* of the public, yes. Even *most* of the public,
perhaps.

The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison labor.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor.

It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.

There's a lot more to it than just assembly-line work. Somebody has to
maintain the production machinery. Somebody has to inspect raw materials
coming in, and finished products going out.

It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the
steel was manufactured by over paid workers.

The company SWMBO works for recently started - and then abandoned - an effort
to establish a subsidiary in China, to produce goods for use _in_China_, not
for export. Among the reasons they abandoned the project was the inability of
Chinese steel producers to consistently supply steel that met their specs.
They have not had that problem at their U.S. plants. I can't imagine that
their experience is unique.

(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)

I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.

And I am betting that you haven't been paying attention to where the screws
you use are made. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've ever, in
my life, twisted the head off of a screw that I know was made in the U.S. or
Canada.

Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.

Yeah, right. I bet you drive a Yugo, and think that it's just as good as a
Mercedes.


It pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.).

Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.

Just pointing out that there are *other* reasons for the low price of Chinese
products besides the disparity in worker salaries. You apparently think that's
the only reason, and that's just not true.

Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and
quality, we will remain in this situation.

Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate and
ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par with
those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other
Americans, you can't tell the difference.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Knothead" wrote in message


Depends on your management structure. Sometimes they actually do earn
their
keep. Not saying every company is but I sub to a company thats lean and
pays
well, management and labor both but that is a pretty involved story and
one
you don't hear very often. The problem lies more in the definition of
skilled labor. I know a guy that works in a GM manufacturing plant that
makes about $32 an hour to stick a bolt in a threaded insert and buzz it
down with an impact wrench I have seen PBS specials that demonstrate
monkeys
can work at a higher capacity. Don't take it the wrong way, I like Tim and
am glad he has a good paying job. I do bite my tongue every time he
bitches
about jobs going overseas though. Compared to another fella I know that
makes about the same money working high steel you really do have to wonder
about the definition of skilled worker. Me I'm management and labor all
rolled into one so I don't really have a good opinion.....

The exact point I was making. And I wonder how long it took to learn that
skill of screwing a bolt into that insert? ;~) The management can be
blamed equally for having poor working conditions years ago and letting the
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40. I
now work doing woodworking for a fraction of what I was being paid. It was
my choice and I accept the lower wages. Actually I am self employed and
charge what I feel the work is actually worth and not what I can get.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

-----------much snippage---------------

The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

lurk mode off

Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.

lurk mode on

Leon wrote:
....
...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. ...

While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...

So, as in any real issue, the problems are much more complex than such
simplistic descriptions or solutions...

World Traveler wrote:

....

(d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which
lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these
unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not
motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a
political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.

I'll agree w/ most of the treatise except for the generalization that
implies essentially no variance between high and low ends of the
spectrum in both countries.

Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that
is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that
is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are
no different in that regard than the US.

There is a definite problem in the US that political rhetoric gets in
the way of solutions more than in controlled economies/governments.
That this is wholly bad is a conjecture to which I'm not prepared to
accede. (The form, not the result, that is).

Kevin wrote:
....
Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.
....

Problem isn't the ethics, it's the trade distortion of essentially free
labor.

Same problem in the US if one company were to be allowed the advantage
of not paying their employees while their competitors weren't allowed
the same opportunity.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that
is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that
is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are
no different in that regard than the US.

Y'think? Especially as it applies to production or factory labor? Or is
the whole skewed by the office worker's "productivity?"
Isn't it all GNP $ / workforce #?

How do they figure an item manufactured in China or any other place? No
question that the value added (or just taken) favors the
importer/distributor. Have a feeling that this may be some damned lies
converted to statistics.

Well, I might as well wade in.

I am not a big HF fan but I occasionally buy small tools from them. However
I bought a $99 mortiser from them several years ago - mainly on a whim.
Surprise - It cut's square holes well and the chisels have taken several
sharpenings quite well. The hold-down mechanism sucked but I have worked
around that with some mods and clamps. Probably won't be my last mortiser
but it fills the bill for now.

Also, an aquaintance entered the trim carpentry a couple of years ago after
being laid off from the aircraft industry. Starting on a shoestring, he
purchased HF brad and finish nailers - both for about $100. Figured they
would get him going until he could afford better. His only complaint after
two years is they won't wear out and he takes a lot of crap from his peers.
(A few of whom now own HF nailers as "back ups".)

Anyone can build crap and unfortuanately we are seeing quite a bit of it
coming from "domestic manufacturers". Anyone compared a 30 year old Unisaw
with a new one lately? It ain't crap but it isn't what it used to be - just
3-4 times the price. That is why products like the Grizzly 1023 series saws
are so popular.

So There

RonB

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
...
...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. ...

While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...

So, as in any real issue, the problems are much more complex than such
simplistic descriptions or solutions...

One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of intellectual
property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you do
not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .

Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about
counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the
same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.

Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is
generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of
the same quality of one made in Japan.

I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet
(made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The
IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal quality -
what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and the
execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .

BillyB

In article , "Kevin" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.

Apparently you're unaware that much of the Chinese prison labor force is
composed of political prisoners, not actual criminals. If that doesn't bother
you, it should.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

I got back from a visit to China over the Christams holidays and saw a
couple things that speak to the comments below.
As to the cost of living - yep, you can live cheap in China. There were
about 15 of us at 2 tables in a VERY GOOD restaurant in Guanzhou. All
together over 20 dishes and when we were finished there was a good deal of
food left over. Cost? - less that $100.00. Also in Guanzhou saw some USB
key chain storage units. 128 MB for about $12.00.
You can retire in relative comfort for about $200/month there although you
will be giving up a few things that most probably see as essential here.


At the same time while crossing a bridge to head home, saw maybe a dozen
people selling pirated software. Most was of music and groups I never heard
of.


"BillyBob" wrote in message
news:_d9ce.19056$yc.2079@trnddc07...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
...
...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. ...

While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...

So, as in any real issue, the problems are much more complex than such
simplistic descriptions or solutions...

One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of
intellectual
property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you
do
not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .

Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about
counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the
same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.

Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is
generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of
the same quality of one made in Japan.

I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet
(made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The
IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal
quality -
what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and
the
execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .

BillyB

[snip]
Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to
distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend
that
the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par
with
those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?


[snip]

Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate
and
ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par
with
those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other
Americans, you can't tell the difference.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification. There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their
work. The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?

It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
product, it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.

What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
production base. Much of that capital is being received now from overseas
or from counterparts in Taiwan. With enough capital investment, the current
Chinese economic boom is just the leading edge of the wave. Regards --

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

[snip]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but

it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are
prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to raise
money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting
rather than dependent upon tax dollars.

Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its own
crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge
to make themselves more profitable. The Air Force operates commercial
vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for
Chengdu city.

But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
license plates and street signs?? Regards --

"World Traveler" wrote in message
k.net...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

[snip]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in
China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but

it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are
prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to
raise
money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting
rather than dependent upon tax dollars.

How benevolent. . .


Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its
own
crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that
edge
to make themselves more profitable.

Does this include wholesale stealing of intellectual property as well....?

The Air Force operates commercial
vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network --
for
Chengdu city.

Hmm - must be a bunch of nice guys. . . no chance of rampant corruption in
China I take it. . .

BillyB

In article t, "World Traveler" wrote:

Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification.

That's actually a pretty scary thought.

There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?

Yes, I'm sure it was, and that probably accounts for the premature failure of
various components. The overwhelming majority of failed boards and power
supplies that I've seen were made in Communist China. In my experience, those
made _anywhere_else_ are much more reliable.

It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
product,

Who said it was? I have _no_problem_ buying tools, electronics, or whatever,
made in Taiwan, where the workers are of identical ethnicity to those on the
mainland - and the goods they produce are of _markedly_better_ quality.

it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.

Yes, indeed - all of which seem to be very sadly lacking in most of the stuff
that comes out of the PRC.

What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
production base.

No, what China has been lacking, and continues to lack, is an economic system
that rewards quality and punishes its absence. And until that system appears,
they will continue to produce crap.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article t, "World Traveler" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
[snip]

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

[snip]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!!

One major difference is that a substantial fraction of the prison labor
force in China is people who were imprisoned for expressing their political or
religious beliefs. We don't do that here.

Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
for the patient (or family) to provide the meals

It's also standard procedure for the government to bill the next-of-kin for
the cost of the bullet used in executing a political prisoner. So what?

; the military grows its own
crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge
to make themselves more profitable.

Pretty much standard operating procedure in societies that have been
impoverished by decades of Communist rule. Everybody's scrabbling to try to
make a yuan, because they have to eat.

The Air Force operates commercial
vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for
Chengdu city.

How comforting. What's your point?

But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
license plates and street signs??

I don't worry about US license plates and street signs because:
a) those products are not in unfair competition with private industry in the
consumer marketplace;
b) prisoners in the US are not slaves, they're actually paid for their labor;
and
c) prisoners in the US are in jail because they committed crimes, not because
they criticize the government or practice a religion that is not officially
approved.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article ,
says...
snip
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40.
snip


Exactly correct. But lets not limit our thinking and bias towards
workers.
Why does American management think they are "better" than their Chinese
counterparts and therefore should not be outsourced along with the
workers?

I suspect its a simple answer of: Well, but ah....because I'm management
and without me running the show here in the US the whole company might as
well be in China.......oh ah, wait a minute.... I ah meant to say....

[sniip]

The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification.

That's actually a pretty scary thought.

There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

[snip]

Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to
http://av-info.faa.gov. Enter country: China and add any major city and
you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example: Shanghai:

CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN
NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT
SHANGHAI, 200232

COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD
GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1
389 GANG AO ROAD
SHANGHAI, 200131

TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI
ROOM C3-120 & C3-121
PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL
SHANGHAI,

Guangzhou:

GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD
GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
GUANGZHOU, 510407

GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD
NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD
TIANHE DISTRICT
GUANGZHOU, 510665

plus Xian, Beijing, etc.

And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining
USAF C-130s.

As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in
Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors.
There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in
that location alone.

Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've
got some other agenda --

Regards --

"World Traveler" wrote in message
nk.net...
[sniip]

The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification.

That's actually a pretty scary thought.

There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

[snip]

Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to
http://av-info.faa.gov. Enter country: China and add any major city and
you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example:
Shanghai:

CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN
NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT
SHANGHAI, 200232

COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD
GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1
389 GANG AO ROAD
SHANGHAI, 200131

TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI
ROOM C3-120 & C3-121
PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL
SHANGHAI,

Guangzhou:

GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD
GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
GUANGZHOU, 510407

GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD
NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD
TIANHE DISTRICT
GUANGZHOU, 510665

plus Xian, Beijing, etc.

And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining
USAF C-130s.

As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in
Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors.
There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in
that location alone.

Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates
you've got some other agenda --

Regards --

Reference to "Xian" should be "Xiamen". Xiamen is a major repair station;
Xian is the Chinese flight test center.

The growth in Chinese aviation is phenomenal. In 1983 there was one
national airline; in 1986 there were 40, and 102 new major airfields. To
staff these, China is sending as many students as possible to overseas
schools, especially locations such as Embry-Riddle.

All of this is being driven by the resurgence of Chinese capital markets
policies and the profit motive. None of this has anything to do with
woodworking, except that if you visit Chinese specialty stores you'll find
solid, well-built, (if not technologically advanced) woodworking tools that
Chinese craftsmen use to turn out extraordinary wood products.

And you've completely danced around the real question -- if Chinese tools
are so inferior, how is it that Chinese craftsmen do such good work???

well with all the fus, i've been a paslode person for about 8 or 9 years
now and have 3 guns and i will only buy a paslode gun for its quality as
they have aways been rated a good gun.

as far as i know from about 9 years ago there was one model i was told
to stay away from and i got that info from a person who worked in the
main office and they did have some problems with that model, however
with a inside person telling me that up front i knew what i was looking
for and i thank that person yet today.

so there's only one name for me and thats PASLODE........say what you
wish about them but here's my 2 cents worth.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:05:39 GMT, "World Traveler"
wrote:

Side thoughts
[snip]
(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a
world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better
handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese
product?

Heh. A few years back my neighbor gave me a ration of **** for "not
buying American" when I traded in my Canadian-assembled Oldsmobile for
an Acura...made in Ohio.

Lee

You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?

How many days a week do you work? Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!

Leon wrote:

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.

Leon wrote:

"KS" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.


Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL




You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands
that build the tools!

Kevin wrote:

I got back from a visit to China over the Christams holidays and saw a
couple things that speak to the comments below.
As to the cost of living - yep, you can live cheap in China. There were
about 15 of us at 2 tables in a VERY GOOD restaurant in Guanzhou. All
together over 20 dishes and when we were finished there was a good deal of
food left over. Cost? - less that $100.00. Also in Guanzhou saw some USB
key chain storage units. 128 MB for about $12.00.
You can retire in relative comfort for about $200/month there although you
will be giving up a few things that most probably see as essential here.

Like quality health care, democracy, freedom of speech, etc. Can't wait
to see how fast Bush starts to force retirees to move to China to make
their SOcial Security checks go further - wait until you live next to a
chicken slaughter house and come down with SARS.


At the same time while crossing a bridge to head home, saw maybe a dozen
people selling pirated software. Most was of music and groups I never heard
of.


"BillyBob" wrote in message
news:_d9ce.19056$yc.2079@trnddc07...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

Leon wrote:
...

...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. ...

While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...

So, as in any real issue, the problems are much more complex than such
simplistic descriptions or solutions...

One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of

intellectual

property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you

do

not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .

Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about
counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the
same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.

Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is
generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of
the same quality of one made in Japan.

I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet
(made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The
IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal

quality -

what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and

the

execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .

BillyB

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article t, "World
Traveler" wrote:
There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.


Therein lies the problem. You can demand, or you can seek. Which is more
productive?

We demand, they seek - and work.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

agreed


There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

this is also true

I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers.

possibly

It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.


Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that! And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.
More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

skeez

USENET READER wrote:



Leon wrote:

"KS" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.


Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL




You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands
that build the tools!

Well, let's see. What do those hands do when the parts don't arrive? What
do they do when the finished product is standing in a pile at the end of
the assembly line? What do they do when one of the machines on the line
goes down? Which one of them sends out the bills to the customers?

Sorry, the Russians thought it was that simple and shot all the managers.
They still haven't recovered.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:32:17 GMT, the inscrutable "World Traveler"
spake:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
[snip]

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

[snip]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but

Poor Doug probably thinks Global Warming is real, the War on Drugs is
doing some good, DDT and silicone implants were killers, low-fat diets
were safe, bullets should be serialized for ID, cholesterol from eggs
will kill you, O.J. and Jackson are innocent, the war in Iraq is
necessary, and, um, that the DHS is making America SAFE! sigh


But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
license plates and street signs?? Regards --

I've seen more stories (and video) on happy Chinese workers than I
have on prison labor tactics.


--== May The Angst Be With You! ==--
-Yoda, on a bad day
--
http://diversify.com Ending Your Web Page Angst.