Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

Yeah, just like that "made in Japan" crap....

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.

In article ,
says...

If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.

Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.

"KS" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.

Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL

Leon wrote:

"KS" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.


Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL




You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands
that build the tools!

USENET READER wrote:



Leon wrote:

"KS" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.


Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL




You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands
that build the tools!

Well, let's see. What do those hands do when the parts don't arrive? What
do they do when the finished product is standing in a pile at the end of
the assembly line? What do they do when one of the machines on the line
goes down? Which one of them sends out the bills to the customers?

Sorry, the Russians thought it was that simple and shot all the managers.
They still haven't recovered.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.


Depends on your management structure. Sometimes they actually do earn their
keep. Not saying every company is but I sub to a company thats lean and pays
well, management and labor both but that is a pretty involved story and one
you don't hear very often. The problem lies more in the definition of
skilled labor. I know a guy that works in a GM manufacturing plant that
makes about $32 an hour to stick a bolt in a threaded insert and buzz it
down with an impact wrench I have seen PBS specials that demonstrate monkeys
can work at a higher capacity. Don't take it the wrong way, I like Tim and
am glad he has a good paying job. I do bite my tongue every time he bitches
about jobs going overseas though. Compared to another fella I know that
makes about the same money working high steel you really do have to wonder
about the definition of skilled worker. Me I'm management and labor all
rolled into one so I don't really have a good opinion.....

Knothead

"Knothead" wrote in message


Depends on your management structure. Sometimes they actually do earn
their
keep. Not saying every company is but I sub to a company thats lean and
pays
well, management and labor both but that is a pretty involved story and
one
you don't hear very often. The problem lies more in the definition of
skilled labor. I know a guy that works in a GM manufacturing plant that
makes about $32 an hour to stick a bolt in a threaded insert and buzz it
down with an impact wrench I have seen PBS specials that demonstrate
monkeys
can work at a higher capacity. Don't take it the wrong way, I like Tim and
am glad he has a good paying job. I do bite my tongue every time he
bitches
about jobs going overseas though. Compared to another fella I know that
makes about the same money working high steel you really do have to wonder
about the definition of skilled worker. Me I'm management and labor all
rolled into one so I don't really have a good opinion.....

The exact point I was making. And I wonder how long it took to learn that
skill of screwing a bolt into that insert? ;~) The management can be
blamed equally for having poor working conditions years ago and letting the
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40. I
now work doing woodworking for a fraction of what I was being paid. It was
my choice and I accept the lower wages. Actually I am self employed and
charge what I feel the work is actually worth and not what I can get.

Leon wrote:
....
...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. ...

While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...

So, as in any real issue, the problems are much more complex than such
simplistic descriptions or solutions...

In article ,
says...
snip
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40.
snip


Exactly correct. But lets not limit our thinking and bias towards
workers.
Why does American management think they are "better" than their Chinese
counterparts and therefore should not be outsourced along with the
workers?

I suspect its a simple answer of: Well, but ah....because I'm management
and without me running the show here in the US the whole company might as
well be in China.......oh ah, wait a minute.... I ah meant to say....

So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?

"Leon" wrote in message
...

The exact point I was making. And I wonder how long it took to learn that
skill of screwing a bolt into that insert? ;~) The management can be
blamed equally for having poor working conditions years ago and letting
the
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in
another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40.
I
now work doing woodworking for a fraction of what I was being paid. It
was
my choice and I accept the lower wages. Actually I am self employed and
charge what I feel the work is actually worth and not what I can get.

In article , "Leon" wrote:

If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.

The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor - and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental regulation.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep their
surroundings clean.)


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing
business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality
steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.)

I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor.
While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable
of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in Korea
and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The days of
making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.

Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered.
(better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US
companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet.
One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.


Exactly. Now that our country has used most of its cheap natural resources
it has to compete with the rest of the world. Blaming others countries for
doing a job at a reasonable price is not going to fix our problems. Or we
could tax the living day lights out of imported products like imported cars.
I learned that the 90 Acura that my wife and I bought in 1989 would have
been 30% cheaper with out the import tax added.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing
business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality
steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)
It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.)

I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor.
While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable
of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in
Korea and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The
days of making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.

Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered.
(better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US
companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet.
One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.
Among my travels I have visited every province in China, and speak Mandarin
and Cantonese. I had started to think I was the only one who recognized
that China produces low end AND high end products. The product specs define
what components are used, and a skilled worker in a Chinese production
facility is almost certainly a more skilled and experienced worker than the
counterpart in a U.S. plant, but probably also better educated, as well.
You only have to go into some of the U.S. factories -- especially in the SE
U.S., to realize how little education or work ethic "our" workers have.

Side thoughts -- (a) if Chinese tools are so bad, how is it that Chinese
wood products -- especially wood carved products -- or of such exceptional
quality?

(b) Perhaps it's a lack of government (e.g., OSHA) interference. The
Heritage Foundation a few years ago found that in terms of economic freedom,
a Chinese special administration area placed first (MOST free!) in the
world. Singapore was second. The U.S. placed fourth.

(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a
world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better
handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese
product?

(d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which
lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these
unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not
motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a
political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.

Regards --

World Traveler wrote:

....

(d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which
lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these
unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not
motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a
political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.

I'll agree w/ most of the treatise except for the generalization that
implies essentially no variance between high and low ends of the
spectrum in both countries.

Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that
is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that
is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are
no different in that regard than the US.

There is a definite problem in the US that political rhetoric gets in
the way of solutions more than in controlled economies/governments.
That this is wholly bad is a conjecture to which I'm not prepared to
accede. (The form, not the result, that is).

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:05:39 GMT, "World Traveler"
wrote:

Side thoughts
[snip]
(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a
world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better
handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese
product?

Heh. A few years back my neighbor gave me a ration of **** for "not
buying American" when I traded in my Canadian-assembled Oldsmobile for
an Acura...made in Ohio.

Lee

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or
else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.

Wrong on both counts.
Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal
amount from just about every where.


The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality.

Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with
or settle for.

The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.



There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor.

It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.

It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the
steel was manufactured by over paid workers.

(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)

I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.

Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.


It pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.).


Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.

Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and
quality, we will remain in this situation.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "Leon" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or
else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.

Wrong on both counts.
Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal
amount from just about every where.

Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to
distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend that
the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par with
those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?


The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality.

Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with
or settle for.

Speak for yourself. *Some* of the public, yes. Even *most* of the public,
perhaps.

The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison labor.

There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor.

It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.

There's a lot more to it than just assembly-line work. Somebody has to
maintain the production machinery. Somebody has to inspect raw materials
coming in, and finished products going out.

It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the
steel was manufactured by over paid workers.

The company SWMBO works for recently started - and then abandoned - an effort
to establish a subsidiary in China, to produce goods for use _in_China_, not
for export. Among the reasons they abandoned the project was the inability of
Chinese steel producers to consistently supply steel that met their specs.
They have not had that problem at their U.S. plants. I can't imagine that
their experience is unique.

(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)

I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.

And I am betting that you haven't been paying attention to where the screws
you use are made. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've ever, in
my life, twisted the head off of a screw that I know was made in the U.S. or
Canada.

Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.

Yeah, right. I bet you drive a Yugo, and think that it's just as good as a
Mercedes.


It pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
their
surroundings clean.).

Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.

Just pointing out that there are *other* reasons for the low price of Chinese
products besides the disparity in worker salaries. You apparently think that's
the only reason, and that's just not true.

Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and
quality, we will remain in this situation.

Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate and
ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par with
those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other
Americans, you can't tell the difference.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:

-----------much snippage---------------

The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
regulation.

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

lurk mode off

Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.

lurk mode on

[snip]
Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to
distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend
that
the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par
with
those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?


[snip]

Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate
and
ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par
with
those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other
Americans, you can't tell the difference.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification. There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their
work. The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?

It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
product, it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.

What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
production base. Much of that capital is being received now from overseas
or from counterparts in Taiwan. With enough capital investment, the current
Chinese economic boom is just the leading edge of the wave. Regards --

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

[snip]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but

it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are
prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to raise
money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting
rather than dependent upon tax dollars.

Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its own
crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge
to make themselves more profitable. The Air Force operates commercial
vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for
Chengdu city.

But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
license plates and street signs?? Regards --

You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?

How many days a week do you work? Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!

Leon wrote:

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.

USENET READER wrote:

You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?

How many days a week do you work? Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!

Only thing any union ever did for me was negotiate a pay cut.

Leon wrote:

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to
build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no
reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a
high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to
over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet
the workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.



--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"USENET READER" wrote in message
nk.net...
You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?

Absolutely not. but not many CEO's have the labor union to do all of their
bidding.



How many days a week do you work?

Usually 4. Sometimes 3, sometimes 7.

Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!

At like the Model T, its time too has passed.





Leon wrote:

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to
build the products for the what they are really worth. There really is
no reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to
pay a high salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs
off to over seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail
gun and yet the workers here think that they should be paid rocket
science wages.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth.

agreed


There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary.

this is also true

I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers.

possibly

It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.


Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that! And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.
More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

skeez

"skeezics" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

No id does not and yes you are.




Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that!

You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?

And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that is
equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.


More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.

Leon wrote:


"skeezics" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

No id does not and yes you are.




Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that!

You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?

So you're saying that factory workers in China should be paid enough to live
in a mansion with servants just to keep wages equal with the US? If not
then what are you suggesting?

Until China has a competitive well established industrial base and is
bringing in large amounts of foreign trade, wages will remain low. They
were low in Japan after WWII, but as Japanese products found new markets
and the Japanese economy grew, wages rose in proportion. So did prices.
When that happened the Japanese started moving production to other
countries where labor costs were lower. Now some of those countries have
labor costs rivalling those of Japan and the US. Eventually China will get
there too and production will move to such places as Rwanda.

And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that
is equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for the same price
as a Chinese worker then that American worker would starve to death and
cease to be productive.

More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.

I see. So to what do you attribute high labor costs in Japan? Are they
also paying their workers more than their work is worth?

Simple fact, an hour of work has no _intrinsic_ value. It's value is what
someone will pay for it. If the most anybody will pay for it is a dime
then that's what it's worth. If they'll pay a million dollars then that's
what it's worth. Where there is a high demand for workers wages will be
high. Where there is a low demand for workers, wages will be low. China
has a labor force 5 times that of the US and a GDP about half as large, so
there is little demand for workers IN CHINA.

I think you need to study a little bit of basic economics.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:52:26 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"skeezics" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

No id does not and yes you are.


anything i have ever seen that says made in china looked and felt
zackaly ! [ zacaly like **** ! ] there may be some good stuff comming
from china but blue collar joe aint sein it so far as i can tell.
JMHO. But japan got that same rep some years back also and today they
make some real nice stuff so change is likely to come for the better.



Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that!

You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?

that may be but if everyone in this country gave back a % of their
salery we would all
would starve to death before the drop in prices could occur.

And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that is
equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.

see above.


More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.

while i agree with this we all must take a good long look into the
past when this country was coming of age in industry.
I dont know how all this stuff is going to get fixed but i do know if
it doesn't get fixed our children and grandchildren are gonna be i
hurt status. I'm not sure ther is one simple fix but we don't seem to
be doing anything!! THATS SCARY !!
BTW i am posting pics of my newest and most specialist gloat over in
ABPW. only took 5 or 6 weeks for someone to send a pic but i got it
today on my b-day and I AN TICKLED PINK !!! take a look. be up in 5.

skeez

They made some real nice stuff years ago too but the American importers that
went there were not looking to buy that. They wanted cheap that they could
maximize profits with. If American importers were to buy quality Chinese
made products, bring them here and expect to sell them at their typical huge
markup, they wouldn't sell. If the buying public looks at two identical
products, one is $100.00, the other is $95.00 and the $95.00 is made in
China, which one are they going to buy? Everybody thinks all things made in
china are junk. The only advantage to buying Chinese is buying junk. If you
want quality, you might as well buy American, German, English, ect.

"skeezics" wrote in message
...
JMHO. But japan got that same rep some years back also and today they
make some real nice stuff so change is likely to come for the better.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:45:12 -0500, the inscrutable A Concerned
Woodworker spake:

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

Now you can either pay $xxxx for a Paslode nailah made in China or $xx
for a Harbor Freight nailah made in China--perhaps at the same plant.

Your call.

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents ****-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

Well, I might as well wade in.

I am not a big HF fan but I occasionally buy small tools from them. However
I bought a $99 mortiser from them several years ago - mainly on a whim.
Surprise - It cut's square holes well and the chisels have taken several
sharpenings quite well. The hold-down mechanism sucked but I have worked
around that with some mods and clamps. Probably won't be my last mortiser
but it fills the bill for now.

Also, an aquaintance entered the trim carpentry a couple of years ago after
being laid off from the aircraft industry. Starting on a shoestring, he
purchased HF brad and finish nailers - both for about $100. Figured they
would get him going until he could afford better. His only complaint after
two years is they won't wear out and he takes a lot of crap from his peers.
(A few of whom now own HF nailers as "back ups".)

Anyone can build crap and unfortuanately we are seeing quite a bit of it
coming from "domestic manufacturers". Anyone compared a 30 year old Unisaw
with a new one lately? It ain't crap but it isn't what it used to be - just
3-4 times the price. That is why products like the Grizzly 1023 series saws
are so popular.

So There

RonB

well with all the fus, i've been a paslode person for about 8 or 9 years
now and have 3 guns and i will only buy a paslode gun for its quality as
they have aways been rated a good gun.

as far as i know from about 9 years ago there was one model i was told
to stay away from and i got that info from a person who worked in the
main office and they did have some problems with that model, however
with a inside person telling me that up front i knew what i was looking
for and i thank that person yet today.

so there's only one name for me and thats PASLODE........say what you
wish about them but here's my 2 cents worth.

Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.





"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit
as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not
the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

One of the biggest problems with China right now is that the Chinese
government is artificially suppressing the value of their money in order to
flood the world with Chinese products and force everyone else out of the
market. This is not highly publicized but is well known to (our) government.
They are threatening trade sanctions if this doesn't cease. The Chinese, of
course, are claiming that the big, bad US is just being mean. Listen to
Chinese radio to hear them whine about it. If their currency was allowed to
inflate naturally (as it would), there would come a time when Chinese
production would loose a lot of it's appeal to American importers, just as
happened with Japan, and to a lesser extent, Taiwan.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.





"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan.
I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit
as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they
can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not
the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

If I remember correctly several SE Asian countries did let their currencies
float back in the 80s (Korea?Thailand?) rather than pegging them to the
dollar. Result? Collapse. Not all that good of an idea for the country.
Now, IF they (China) can develop to the point where there is some faith in
its economy, a floating exchange could be good. This assumes that the
government is willing to change. Perhaps this will be the case in another
generation.

-Kevin
"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
One of the biggest problems with China right now is that the Chinese
government is artificially suppressing the value of their money in order
to
flood the world with Chinese products and force everyone else out of the
market. This is not highly publicized but is well known to (our)
government.
They are threatening trade sanctions if this doesn't cease. The Chinese,
of
course, are claiming that the big, bad US is just being mean. Listen to
Chinese radio to hear them whine about it. If their currency was allowed
to
inflate naturally (as it would), there would come a time when Chinese
production would loose a lot of it's appeal to American importers, just as
happened with Japan, and to a lesser extent, Taiwan.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.





"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in
Japan.
I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every
bit
as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the
cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they
can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not
as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company,
not
the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

This is how rumors start, isn't it?! Your information is inaccurate
an untrue. I know for a fact that the majority (80%+) of the parts
are made in the U.S. and the ALL the Impulse and almost all
air guns are still assembled in the U.S. Quality is top priority
there and they test every little component that is in those guns.
How many other brands can even come close to doing that?

By the way, didn't they just lower their prices last year?!! I don't
think you can beat their quality and power with any other brand!

I also know that they make their nails here in the U.S. too. Check
your labels boys & girls, I bet their one of the last ones that
do.

I will never give up my Paslode tools and will always support them,
becuase I trust their experience and performance!

A Concerned Woodworkerwrote:
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have
their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much,
but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This
will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than
likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as
much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well,
another
quality tool down the crapper !!!