USENET READER wrote:

You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?

How many days a week do you work? Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!

Only thing any union ever did for me was negotiate a pay cut.

Leon wrote:

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to
build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no
reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a
high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to
over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet
the workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.



--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

World Traveler wrote:

[sniip]

The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification.

That's actually a pretty scary thought.

There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

[snip]

Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to
http://av-info.faa.gov. Enter country: China and add any major city and
you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example:
Shanghai:

CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN
NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT
SHANGHAI, 200232

COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD
GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1
389 GANG AO ROAD
SHANGHAI, 200131

TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI
ROOM C3-120 & C3-121
PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL
SHANGHAI,

Guangzhou:

GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD
GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
GUANGZHOU, 510407

GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD
NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD
TIANHE DISTRICT
GUANGZHOU, 510665

plus Xian, Beijing, etc.

And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining
USAF C-130s.

As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in
Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors.
There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in
that location alone.

Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates
you've got some other agenda --

Probably just the same kind of xenophobia that caused people in the '50s and
early '60s to put down Japanese products before they got a load of Sony and
Nikon.

Regards --

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:
....
Probably just the same kind of xenophobia that caused people in the '50s and
early '60s to put down Japanese products before they got a load of Sony and
Nikon.
....

Well, maybe a little, but the real reason was that from the period after
WWII, Japan had no manufacturing of significance left and much of the
production from there was inferior....this changed over time (thanks a
lot to they're having paid attention to Deming while he could get no
more than lip service from most American manufacturers of the time). It
took a long time to overcome the previous perceptions even when they
were no longer generally true...

A similar effect is occurring in RPC now...some products are not only
inexpensive, they're cheap. Others rate as well as any produced
anywhere in the world.

World Traveler wrote:
....
Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've
got some other agenda --
....

Not necessarily...simply being uninformed is more likely the culprit.

"USENET READER" wrote in message
nk.net...
You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?

Absolutely not. but not many CEO's have the labor union to do all of their
bidding.



How many days a week do you work?

Usually 4. Sometimes 3, sometimes 7.

Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!

At like the Model T, its time too has passed.





Leon wrote:

A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...

Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to
build the products for the what they are really worth. There really is
no reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to
pay a high salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs
off to over seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail
gun and yet the workers here think that they should be paid rocket
science wages.

"skeezics" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

No id does not and yes you are.




Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that!

You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?

And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that is
equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.


More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.

Leon wrote:


"skeezics" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

No id does not and yes you are.




Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that!

You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?

So you're saying that factory workers in China should be paid enough to live
in a mansion with servants just to keep wages equal with the US? If not
then what are you suggesting?

Until China has a competitive well established industrial base and is
bringing in large amounts of foreign trade, wages will remain low. They
were low in Japan after WWII, but as Japanese products found new markets
and the Japanese economy grew, wages rose in proportion. So did prices.
When that happened the Japanese started moving production to other
countries where labor costs were lower. Now some of those countries have
labor costs rivalling those of Japan and the US. Eventually China will get
there too and production will move to such places as Rwanda.

And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that
is equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for the same price
as a Chinese worker then that American worker would starve to death and
cease to be productive.

More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.

I see. So to what do you attribute high labor costs in Japan? Are they
also paying their workers more than their work is worth?

Simple fact, an hour of work has no _intrinsic_ value. It's value is what
someone will pay for it. If the most anybody will pay for it is a dime
then that's what it's worth. If they'll pay a million dollars then that's
what it's worth. Where there is a high demand for workers wages will be
high. Where there is a low demand for workers, wages will be low. China
has a labor force 5 times that of the US and a GDP about half as large, so
there is little demand for workers IN CHINA.

I think you need to study a little bit of basic economics.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?

"Leon" wrote in message
...

The exact point I was making. And I wonder how long it took to learn that
skill of screwing a bolt into that insert? ;~) The management can be
blamed equally for having poor working conditions years ago and letting
the
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in
another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40.
I
now work doing woodworking for a fraction of what I was being paid. It
was
my choice and I accept the lower wages. Actually I am self employed and
charge what I feel the work is actually worth and not what I can get.

In article , wrote:
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:32:17 GMT, the inscrutable "World Traveler"
spake:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
[snip]

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.

[snip]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but

Poor Doug probably thinks Global Warming is real, the War on Drugs is
doing some good, DDT and silicone implants were killers, low-fat diets
were safe, bullets should be serialized for ID, cholesterol from eggs
will kill you, O.J. and Jackson are innocent, the war in Iraq is
necessary, and, um, that the DHS is making America SAFE! sigh

No, no, no, yes, no, maybe, no, too early to tell, and probably not.


But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
license plates and street signs?? Regards --

I've seen more stories (and video) on happy Chinese workers than I
have on prison labor tactics.

And in the mid-1800s there were a lot of stories about the happy slaves on
Southern plantations, too. Do you believe everything you see?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , wrote:
World Traveler wrote:
....
Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've
got some other agenda --
....

Not necessarily...simply being uninformed is more likely the culprit.

Hardly. The "culprit" is my desire to not spend what little money I have on
things that don't last, combined with my reluctance to purchase the products
of slave labor.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?

Sometimes. Yes.

Seldom more than $25.

Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.





"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit
as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not
the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article t, "World
Traveler" wrote:
There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

You're right not to believe it. I build commercial aircraft here and know
where this stuff comes from.

The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and
trash?

Yes, I'm sure it was, and that probably accounts for the premature failure
of
various components. The overwhelming majority of failed boards and power
supplies that I've seen were made in Communist China. In my experience,
those
made _anywhere_else_ are much more reliable.

It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
product,

Who said it was? I have _no_problem_ buying tools, electronics, or
whatever,
made in Taiwan, where the workers are of identical ethnicity to those on
the
mainland - and the goods they produce are of _markedly_better_ quality.

it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.

Yes, indeed - all of which seem to be very sadly lacking in most of the
stuff
that comes out of the PRC.

What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
production base.

No, what China has been lacking, and continues to lack, is an economic
system
that rewards quality and punishes its absence. And until that system
appears,
they will continue to produce crap.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

You should be leading by example. The average Chinese worker makes about 18
cents an hour. If you're charging more than 20 cents, you are part of the
problem. I said $6.00 because that is about average minimum wage (try to
live on it).

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?

Sometimes. Yes.

Seldom more than $25.

One of the biggest problems with China right now is that the Chinese
government is artificially suppressing the value of their money in order to
flood the world with Chinese products and force everyone else out of the
market. This is not highly publicized but is well known to (our) government.
They are threatening trade sanctions if this doesn't cease. The Chinese, of
course, are claiming that the big, bad US is just being mean. Listen to
Chinese radio to hear them whine about it. If their currency was allowed to
inflate naturally (as it would), there would come a time when Chinese
production would loose a lot of it's appeal to American importers, just as
happened with Japan, and to a lesser extent, Taiwan.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.





"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan.
I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit
as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they
can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not
the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
You should be leading by example. The average Chinese worker makes about
18
cents an hour. If you're charging more than 20 cents, you are part of the
problem. I said $6.00 because that is about average minimum wage (try to
live on it).

Well I will agree that I am part of the problem.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:52:26 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"skeezics" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.

It doe's and no i am not!

No id does not and yes you are.


anything i have ever seen that says made in china looked and felt
zackaly ! [ zacaly like **** ! ] there may be some good stuff comming
from china but blue collar joe aint sein it so far as i can tell.
JMHO. But japan got that same rep some years back also and today they
make some real nice stuff so change is likely to come for the better.



Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that!

You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?

that may be but if everyone in this country gave back a % of their
salery we would all
would starve to death before the drop in prices could occur.

And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.

If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that is
equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.

see above.


More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.

while i agree with this we all must take a good long look into the
past when this country was coming of age in industry.
I dont know how all this stuff is going to get fixed but i do know if
it doesn't get fixed our children and grandchildren are gonna be i
hurt status. I'm not sure ther is one simple fix but we don't seem to
be doing anything!! THATS SCARY !!
BTW i am posting pics of my newest and most specialist gloat over in
ABPW. only took 5 or 6 weeks for someone to send a pic but i got it
today on my b-day and I AN TICKLED PINK !!! take a look. be up in 5.

skeez

CW wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article t, "World
Traveler" wrote:
There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
work.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

You're right not to believe it. I build commercial aircraft here and know
where this stuff comes from.
....

Well, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there aren't at least some
subassemblies/parts being produced in PRC. While I don't know the
current status, there was a big hub-bub made in Wichita over one of the
agreements Boeing made w/ China on one of the major sales a couple of
years ago that included transferral of some portion of the manufacturing
to China. Where that agreement stands today I'm not certain, but if it
isn't occurring yet, I expect it will before long...

The demise of Boeing from the apex to the current status as becoming
simply an assembler of outside-produced parts is certainly a
poster-child of the overall situation.

They made some real nice stuff years ago too but the American importers that
went there were not looking to buy that. They wanted cheap that they could
maximize profits with. If American importers were to buy quality Chinese
made products, bring them here and expect to sell them at their typical huge
markup, they wouldn't sell. If the buying public looks at two identical
products, one is $100.00, the other is $95.00 and the $95.00 is made in
China, which one are they going to buy? Everybody thinks all things made in
china are junk. The only advantage to buying Chinese is buying junk. If you
want quality, you might as well buy American, German, English, ect.

"skeezics" wrote in message
...
JMHO. But japan got that same rep some years back also and today they
make some real nice stuff so change is likely to come for the better.

If I remember correctly several SE Asian countries did let their currencies
float back in the 80s (Korea?Thailand?) rather than pegging them to the
dollar. Result? Collapse. Not all that good of an idea for the country.
Now, IF they (China) can develop to the point where there is some faith in
its economy, a floating exchange could be good. This assumes that the
government is willing to change. Perhaps this will be the case in another
generation.

-Kevin
"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
One of the biggest problems with China right now is that the Chinese
government is artificially suppressing the value of their money in order
to
flood the world with Chinese products and force everyone else out of the
market. This is not highly publicized but is well known to (our)
government.
They are threatening trade sanctions if this doesn't cease. The Chinese,
of
course, are claiming that the big, bad US is just being mean. Listen to
Chinese radio to hear them whine about it. If their currency was allowed
to
inflate naturally (as it would), there would come a time when Chinese
production would loose a lot of it's appeal to American importers, just as
happened with Japan, and to a lesser extent, Taiwan.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.





"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in
Japan.
I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every
bit
as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the
cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they
can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not
as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company,
not
the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
A Concerned Woodworker wrote in message
...
Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!

This is how rumors start, isn't it?! Your information is inaccurate
an untrue. I know for a fact that the majority (80%+) of the parts
are made in the U.S. and the ALL the Impulse and almost all
air guns are still assembled in the U.S. Quality is top priority
there and they test every little component that is in those guns.
How many other brands can even come close to doing that?

By the way, didn't they just lower their prices last year?!! I don't
think you can beat their quality and power with any other brand!

I also know that they make their nails here in the U.S. too. Check
your labels boys & girls, I bet their one of the last ones that
do.

I will never give up my Paslode tools and will always support them,
becuase I trust their experience and performance!

A Concerned Woodworkerwrote:
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have
their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much,
but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This
will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than
likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as
much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well,
another
quality tool down the crapper !!!