I'm still having difficulty with skew chisels. I seem to get far too many
catches, despite being very careful and keeping the bevel rubbing whenever
possible. I've even taken to honing them after sharpening.

My question: my skews are fairly short and light in weight. Could this be
a problem? Would longer, heavier skews improve my chances of not catching,
or simply make the catches more painful? Any suggestions will be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Max

"Maxprop" wrote: (clip) Any suggestions will be appreciated.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I used to have a lot of skew troubles. Our club chairman suggested that I
start using the skew as much as possible, particularly for things like
roughing and gross shaping. There seems to be a special kind of nervousness
that goes with the critical finishing cuts, that makes the skew more
treacherous. You will not be good with the skew are able to relax--until
you are able to concentrate on the shape, letting your "muscle memory" take
care of the mechanical part. It's a lot like learning to drive, or play
music.

you might want to try Alan Lacer's video The skew, the dark side the
sweet side. He goes into allot of things that may help. I like the
dead center as a driver. You can slip the work depending on how tight
you make the tail stock. If you can grab the work a catch is not going
to be that bad.

Bruce

Maxprop wrote:
I'm still having difficulty with skew chisels. I seem to get far too many
catches, despite being very careful and keeping the bevel rubbing whenever
possible. I've even taken to honing them after sharpening.

My question: my skews are fairly short and light in weight. Could this be
a problem? Would longer, heavier skews improve my chances of not catching,
or simply make the catches more painful? Any suggestions will be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Max

Max, I was having terrible catches with the skew when I first started
turning. An experienced woodturner watched me turn and looked at my
skew, and said it was not sharp. This does not seem to be your
problem. Another problem I was having was the top and bottom of my
skew was digging into the wood as I tried to use it. He suggested I
grind back those spots, I did that and have had no more problems.
Since then (5 years ago) I have bought a new skew and now use it
without grinding down the edges. The skew is one of the tools I use
the most now. I use heavy and light skews for different jobs, but the
heavy ones the most often.
Glenn
Nashville, GA

There is some good advice above. Also make sure you are cutting down
hill - meaning do not cut into the end-grain, instead cut away from the
end grain. Even with great technique, you can get catches if you cut
into the grain.
I learned the skew from a Brian Clifford article he has on the web. I
do not have the link at hand, but you cn find it on the links page on
my web site.
Brad
HardingPens.com

Hi Max, I think one problem occurs when cutting a straight shoulder or
coved surface with a flat straight edged tool (skew) applied nearly
perpendicular to the turning axis. The more perpendicular the cut the
less edge contact and less bevel rubbing the wood's surface is allowed
before the tool skids into a spiral or the point digs in. When truly
perpendicular only the skew's point is allowed. Solution:
When skewing at wide angles to the axis, keep most of the edge and all
of the bevel off the wood. ie. stay on the point.

Another problem occurs when a flat edged tool is moved parallel to the
turning axis. Here the bevel and the edge between the points isn't the
enemy; it's the points that cause the trouble so keep them away from the
wood by keeping the edge-wood contact area small and well between the
skew's points. Also keep the shaft-toolrest contact area firmly &
directly below the edge-wood contact area and don't wave the skew about.

Peeling is another skewing action, but it doesn't seem to be a problem.
***********************************************
Now forget all the above, you don't learn to skew by reading and it may
or may not be true anyway. Like learning to canoe by deliberately
upsetting and falling out, one way to learn how to skew wood is to make
many deliberate skids & digs (try the opposite of above advice) on soft
timber at slow speed with a devil may care attitude yet observing what
happened. Keep on & on until like upsetting a canoe, the fear is gone,
skewing is second nature and it takes an effort to make a deliberate
mistake.

In keeping with my obvious tendency toward brief posts, I'll add an
analogy. Once I had to train some prim volunteers to do VD
interviews. To desensitize them to fear & embarrassment, I had them look
at pornographic movies all day long for two days. They soon became
inured, very bored and fell asleep.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:07:17 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:

I'm still having difficulty with skew chisels. I seem to get far too many
catches, despite being very careful and keeping the bevel rubbing whenever
possible. I've even taken to honing them after sharpening.

My question: my skews are fairly short and light in weight. Could this be
a problem? Would longer, heavier skews improve my chances of not catching,
or simply make the catches more painful? Any suggestions will be
appreciated.


Max,

I don't think the size of your skews is the problem. I taught myself
to use the skew w/o fear by using the only skew I had at the time, a
1/2" Sorby mini tool, to reduce pieces of 8" diameter firewood to
shavings, over and over again, from rough to finish. It's really just
a matter of getting comfortable with where to hold the tool, how to
hold the tool and what you can and can't ask of it. While videos are
_very_ helpful, there is no teacher like experience.



--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.


September 11, 2001 - Never Forget

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Brad" wrote in message
oups.com...
There is some good advice above. Also make sure you are cutting down
hill - meaning do not cut into the end-grain, instead cut away from the
end grain. Even with great technique, you can get catches if you cut
into the grain.
I learned the skew from a Brian Clifford article he has on the web. I
do not have the link at hand, but you cn find it on the links page on
my web site.

Back in the stone age, and even after I learned turning, it was common to
find left and right skews. Simply put, the bevel on one side, the other
flat. For the same reason that a bevel chisel digs in when you use the flat
side down, a skew will do the same.

Also better to use a beading tool - narrow straight chisel - for cutting
beads, in my experience. Saves you from yourself, and the tendency to cut
only inward, forgetting that there comes a point (no pun intended) where the
projecting part grabs and throws you out as it catches what you had not cut
down upon.

Maxprop wrote:
I'm still having difficulty with skew chisels. I seem to get far too many
catches, despite being very careful and keeping the bevel rubbing whenever
possible. I've even taken to honing them after sharpening.

My question: my skews are fairly short and light in weight. Could this be
a problem? Would longer, heavier skews improve my chances of not catching,
or simply make the catches more painful? Any suggestions will be
appreciated.

This is a really difficult problem to diagnose at a distance. But
'whenever possible' is not good enough. I can think of very few
instances when the skew is safely used without bevel support.

The most likely tool size issue is the width of the blade. Assuming that
you are talking about cutting with the edge rather than either of the
points, a blade which is too narrow will make it difficult to keep the
cut away from the point. Larger diameter work (ie the surface is much
flatter than small diameter work) calls for a larger tool. FWIW I do
nearly all my work with a 3/4" oval skew.

Standing in the right place before starting to roll a bead is very
important. Before you turn the lathe on, make a few pretend cuts, making
sure that you can comfortably move the tool from its starting position
with the bevel parallel to the lathe axis, to its finishing position
with the tool handle perpendicular to the lathe axis. A common problem
for novices is to stand in a comfortable position to start the cut, but
then quickly find they are off balance by the time the skew is cutting
into endgrain. It is at this point that the wood requires more force to
cut, and the turner looses control.

Wrist action is important too. You need to be able to roll the tool
comfortably through 90 degrees. I hold the tool handle with the thumb
along the handle and in line with the top of the blade. I find this puts
my hand in a comfortable and controlled position throughout the cut.

Another common problem is trying to cut beads which are too small. The
problem here is that the skew still needs to swing and rotate through
the same wide arc, but on a small bead it has to do so over very little
forward movement. This requires considerable coordination. I normally
start students on beads about 1 inch diameter, and certainly between
1/2" and 1 1/2" diameter. Practice in softwood to begin with where the
forces involved are less. I find 2x4 spruce studs to be good, ripped up
into square stock and just using pieces that are straight grained and
knot free.

Beware of anything that suddenly changes the forces on the cutting edge.
Most common is letting the cut move from the cutting edge to the point.
While a bead can be cut in either position, the way the cut is made and
the forces on the tool are quite different. Switching from one to the
other part way through a cut is a recipe for disaster, though it can be
done with care. Other common problems like this are allowing the depth
of cut to get too big, or not being ready for the extra force required
to cut through the endgrain.

If you loose the cut part way through a bead, take care. Do not drag the
cutting edge back up the cut surface as this will cause a catch if the
edge contacts the wood without bevel support. Until you are very
familiar with the tool, I recommend consciously removing the tool from
the wood, then rubbing the bevel and carefully reintroducing the cutting
edge just behind where you left off. If at anytime the cutting edge
contacts the wood without bevel support and the turner having full
control of the tool, then a catch is almost certain.

Those are most of the common problems I see with beginners. If you can
be more specific about the problem, like exactly what you are trying to
do, and the conditions under which the catch occurs, please provide more
information and I will try to help. Hands on instruction is a much more
effective solution though.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

If you are having problems using skew chisels.......that probably just means
you are fairly normal in motor skill development, likely well-adjusted and
happy in most other aspects of your life.......and much like a whole lot of
other woodturners.

I'm certainly no expert with the skew, myself. Personally, I find that
larger (longer cutting edge) skews, say the 1" size or larger, are usually
less prone to catches. I like the heavier traditional skews (rectangular
cross section) rather than the newer and lighter weight oval skews. I doubt
the length of your skew chisels has any bearing on their propensity for
"catches". Watch you cut and make sure you are doing the cutting with the
lower one-third of the cutting edge.

There is a DVD by Alan Lacer, entitled "The Skew Chisel" that you might find
useful. Watch the DVD, then find some cheap wood and practice, practice,
practice. If that doesn't help, avoidance might. If you switch to turning
bowls and hollow vessels, you'll rarely have need for a skew chisel. Good
luck.

Barry


"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...
I'm still having difficulty with skew chisels. I seem to get far too many
catches, despite being very careful and keeping the bevel rubbing whenever
possible. I've even taken to honing them after sharpening.

My question: my skews are fairly short and light in weight. Could this
be a problem? Would longer, heavier skews improve my chances of not
catching, or simply make the catches more painful? Any suggestions will
be appreciated.

Thanks,

Max

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...

snip

Those are most of the common problems I see with beginners. If you can be
more specific about the problem, like exactly what you are trying to do,
and the conditions under which the catch occurs, please provide more
information and I will try to help. Hands on instruction is a much more
effective solution though.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

Many thanks to all who responded. I feel very fortunate to have access to
such a talented and experienced group of turners all in one place.
Throughout your answers I detected more than a few mistakes I've been
making, and I've just spent several hours implementing quite a bit of the
advice given. I ripped four 16" sections of 2x4s and turned all eight 2x2
sections into shavings and dust, and I'm happy to report that toward the end
the catches were few and far between. Progress is being made, thanks to you
folks. Please give yourselves a pat on the back from me--you deserve it.
And my wife is grateful to hear less epithet-laden language emanating from
the basement.

Alan Lacer's DVD is my next purchase, as is a Stebcenter drive center and a
3/4" skew. I hope to have this problem licked soon.

Thanks again,

Max

Hi Max, Glad you have skewered the epithets.

I agree with the Lacer CD and 3/4" skew, but why do you need a Steb
center? I've read the ads, but I've never used one as it seems to me to
be an expensive device that like a cheaper dead center tends to
perpetuate instead of improve poor tool work and it fills some other
needs that most hobbyists don't have. Other's opinions will differ and
I'm willing to learn.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Do you still have the training material?

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:41:11 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Hi Max, I think one problem occurs when cutting a straight shoulder or
coved surface with a flat straight edged tool (skew) applied nearly
perpendicular to the turning axis. The more perpendicular the cut the
less edge contact and less bevel rubbing the wood's surface is allowed
before the tool skids into a spiral or the point digs in. When truly
perpendicular only the skew's point is allowed. Solution:
When skewing at wide angles to the axis, keep most of the edge and all
of the bevel off the wood. ie. stay on the point.

Another problem occurs when a flat edged tool is moved parallel to the
turning axis. Here the bevel and the edge between the points isn't the
enemy; it's the points that cause the trouble so keep them away from the
wood by keeping the edge-wood contact area small and well between the
skew's points. Also keep the shaft-toolrest contact area firmly &
directly below the edge-wood contact area and don't wave the skew about.

Peeling is another skewing action, but it doesn't seem to be a problem.
***********************************************
Now forget all the above, you don't learn to skew by reading and it may
or may not be true anyway. Like learning to canoe by deliberately
upsetting and falling out, one way to learn how to skew wood is to make
many deliberate skids & digs (try the opposite of above advice) on soft
timber at slow speed with a devil may care attitude yet observing what
happened. Keep on & on until like upsetting a canoe, the fear is gone,
skewing is second nature and it takes an effort to make a deliberate
mistake.

In keeping with my obvious tendency toward brief posts, I'll add an
analogy. Once I had to train some prim volunteers to do VD
interviews. To desensitize them to fear & embarrassment, I had them look
at pornographic movies all day long for two days. They soon became
inured, very bored and fell asleep.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Hi Max, Glad you have skewered the epithets.

I agree with the Lacer CD and 3/4" skew, but why do you need a Steb
center? I've read the ads, but I've never used one as it seems to me to
be an expensive device that like a cheaper dead center tends to
perpetuate instead of improve poor tool work and it fills some other
needs that most hobbyists don't have. Other's opinions will differ and
I'm willing to learn.

So am I, obviously. g I was reading a turner's website a while back in
which he recommended the Stebcenter as a means for mitigating the ill
effects of a nasty catch--the sort I have been experiencing. Several
catches have yanked the skew from my hands, and on one occasion it caught my
faceshield and ripped it from my headgear, destroying both. Better it than
I. But I was hoping a Stebcenter might be a good device to use while
learning the taming of the skew (sorry). I don't own a dead center--my
lathe came only with a live one plus some drive centers--so I shopped for a
center that would allow slippage, but couldn't find a dead center offered.
At least the Craft Supplies catalog doesn't seem to have them. I'm sure
they've got to be cheaper than a Stebcenter, so I'm all ears if you think
they'll work as well for less money. As for poor tool work, I believe that
is my middle name, but I'm improving.

Max

Max, instead of using a skew, use a round nose scraper, freshly sharpened,
tilted up at about a 45 degree angle, with the bevel rubbing. Guess what?
It cuts well, will not catch. However, it really doesn't work well for long
straight sections, as the handle is at a 60-75 degree angle to the surface.
But for plankwise open bowls, it is great to do the last pass (inside and
out) to leave a very clean cut. Try it, you will like it!!

James Johnson

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...
I'm still having difficulty with skew chisels. I seem to get far too many
catches, despite being very careful and keeping the bevel rubbing whenever
possible. I've even taken to honing them after sharpening.

My question: my skews are fairly short and light in weight. Could this
be
a problem? Would longer, heavier skews improve my chances of not
catching,
or simply make the catches more painful? Any suggestions will be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Max

"JRJohnson" wrote in message
...
Max, instead of using a skew, use a round nose scraper, freshly sharpened,
tilted up at about a 45 degree angle, with the bevel rubbing. Guess what?
It cuts well, will not catch. However, it really doesn't work well for
long
straight sections, as the handle is at a 60-75 degree angle to the
surface.
But for plankwise open bowls, it is great to do the last pass (inside and
out) to leave a very clean cut. Try it, you will like it!!


They even sell a similar tool. If you take the bevel back even farther, you
can get more to guide on what is surely an extreme Lacer grind.

"JRJohnson" wrote in message
...
Max, instead of using a skew, use a round nose scraper, freshly sharpened,
tilted up at about a 45 degree angle, with the bevel rubbing. Guess what?
It cuts well, will not catch. However, it really doesn't work well for
long
straight sections, as the handle is at a 60-75 degree angle to the
surface.
But for plankwise open bowls, it is great to do the last pass (inside and
out) to leave a very clean cut. Try it, you will like it!!

James Johnson

I have a heavy (1/2" thick) round-nose scraper which should work well, but
I'm unsure as to how to use via your method to cut beads and coves. It
does, however, leave a very smooth, chatter-free surface on bowls, as you've
implied.

Max

Max, another forgiving tool for smoothing a spindle surface can be made
by removing the bevel and grinding a new one on the flute side of a
shallow 3/4" or larger gouge. Held upside down & flat on the rest and
pulled at an angle, the wings prevent rotation and 'slam-downs' while
the fixed tangent of curved gouge to curved wood helps control the chip
width and 'dig-ins'. Find the sweet-angle and it works quite well. If
you have an unused old carbon steel gouge you may want to try it.

Not condescending to you, but a true beginner should remember to use a
dead _ring_ center, not a dead 60deg. center as a clutch. Maybe I've
forgotten how to 'double clutch' , but a dead ring center drive is a
pain to me. It either slips too easily or it needs too much tailstock
pressure.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Max, another forgiving tool for smoothing a spindle surface can be made
by removing the bevel and grinding a new one on the flute side of a
shallow 3/4" or larger gouge. Held upside down & flat on the rest and
pulled at an angle, the wings prevent rotation and 'slam-downs' while
the fixed tangent of curved gouge to curved wood helps control the chip
width and 'dig-ins'. Find the sweet-angle and it works quite well. If
you have an unused old carbon steel gouge you may want to try it.

An interesting idea. As a relative newcomer to turning, I don't have
anything that's old. But I'm replacing my first, inexpensive tools with
better ones as finances allow.


Not condescending to you, but a true beginner should remember to use a
dead _ring_ center, not a dead 60deg. center as a clutch. Maybe I've
forgotten how to 'double clutch' , but a dead ring center drive is a
pain to me. It either slips too easily or it needs too much tailstock
pressure.

It sounds as if a Steb center might be a better alternative. I found a dead
ring center from Packard, and it is somewhat less expensive than the Steb.

Max

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 03:57:04 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Max, another forgiving tool for smoothing a spindle surface can be made
by removing the bevel and grinding a new one on the flute side of a
shallow 3/4" or larger gouge. Held upside down & flat on the rest and
pulled at an angle, the wings prevent rotation and 'slam-downs' while
the fixed tangent of curved gouge to curved wood helps control the chip
width and 'dig-ins'. Find the sweet-angle and it works quite well. If
you have an unused old carbon steel gouge you may want to try it.

An interesting idea. As a relative newcomer to turning, I don't have
anything that's old. But I'm replacing my first, inexpensive tools with
better ones as finances allow.

FWIW, while I was waiting for my nicer turning tools to arrive when I
got my first lathe, I picked up a set of carbon steel turning tools
from Menard's for about $15. For that price, you could consider them
"unused old" tools right out of the package, and play with the profile
all you like. It's the special alloys and tool steels that cost a lot
of money- but the carbon steel ones have thier place as well (They
take an edge like nothing else, it just doesn't stay keen as long, and
is prone to rusting)

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 03:57:04 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Max, another forgiving tool for smoothing a spindle surface can be made
by removing the bevel and grinding a new one on the flute side of a
shallow 3/4" or larger gouge. Held upside down & flat on the rest and
pulled at an angle, the wings prevent rotation and 'slam-downs' while
the fixed tangent of curved gouge to curved wood helps control the chip
width and 'dig-ins'. Find the sweet-angle and it works quite well. If
you have an unused old carbon steel gouge you may want to try it.

An interesting idea. As a relative newcomer to turning, I don't have
anything that's old. But I'm replacing my first, inexpensive tools with
better ones as finances allow.

FWIW, while I was waiting for my nicer turning tools to arrive when I
got my first lathe, I picked up a set of carbon steel turning tools
from Menard's for about $15. For that price, you could consider them
"unused old" tools right out of the package, and play with the profile
all you like. It's the special alloys and tool steels that cost a lot
of money- but the carbon steel ones have thier place as well (They
take an edge like nothing else, it just doesn't stay keen as long, and
is prone to rusting)

While I have invested in a rather nice 1/2" bowl gouge that now has a David
Ellsworth profile, plus a couple of other *quality* tools, my first tools
were a Harbor Freight set of HSS tools. Amazingly they aren't all that bad,
but I doubt if the steel is M2. They hold an edge reasonably well, and I
don't worry about ruining them while trying different grinds on the
Wolverine jig. In fact, I've taken my 3/4" skew and put a Lacer-type gentle
radius on it. That certainly made it more user-friendly--I have yet to get
a catch with it after altering the edge profile.

I also want to report that since implementing some of the suggestions made
by those who responded to my original plea for help, I'm now enjoying my
skews tremendously, having almost no catches, and definitely getting better
results.

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Hi Max, Glad you have skewered the epithets.

I agree with the Lacer CD and 3/4" skew, but why do you need a Steb
center? I've read the ads, but I've never used one as it seems to me to
be an expensive device that like a cheaper dead center tends to
perpetuate instead of improve poor tool work and it fills some other
needs that most hobbyists don't have. Other's opinions will differ and
I'm willing to learn.

So am I, obviously. g I was reading a turner's website a while back
in which he recommended the Stebcenter as a means for mitigating the ill
effects of a nasty catch--the sort I have been experiencing. Several
catches have yanked the skew from my hands, and on one occasion it caught
my faceshield and ripped it from my headgear, destroying both. Better it
than I. But I was hoping a Stebcenter might be a good device to use while
learning the taming of the skew (sorry). I don't own a dead center--my
lathe came only with a live one plus some drive centers--so I shopped for
a center that would allow slippage, but couldn't find a dead center
offered. At least the Craft Supplies catalog doesn't seem to have them.
I'm sure they've got to be cheaper than a Stebcenter, so I'm all ears if
you think they'll work as well for less money. As for poor tool work, I
believe that is my middle name, but I'm improving.

Max
======================

Max,
Sears has one in their online catalog. It's a 60 degree, MT2, and cost is
$7.99. They once had a cup center, and it may be in their tool catalog, but
not in the online version.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

"Ken Moon" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Hi Max, Glad you have skewered the epithets.

I agree with the Lacer CD and 3/4" skew, but why do you need a Steb
center? I've read the ads, but I've never used one as it seems to me to
be an expensive device that like a cheaper dead center tends to
perpetuate instead of improve poor tool work and it fills some other
needs that most hobbyists don't have. Other's opinions will differ and
I'm willing to learn.

So am I, obviously. g I was reading a turner's website a while back
in which he recommended the Stebcenter as a means for mitigating the ill
effects of a nasty catch--the sort I have been experiencing. Several
catches have yanked the skew from my hands, and on one occasion it caught
my faceshield and ripped it from my headgear, destroying both. Better it
than I. But I was hoping a Stebcenter might be a good device to use
while learning the taming of the skew (sorry). I don't own a dead
center--my lathe came only with a live one plus some drive centers--so I
shopped for a center that would allow slippage, but couldn't find a dead
center offered. At least the Craft Supplies catalog doesn't seem to have
them. I'm sure they've got to be cheaper than a Stebcenter, so I'm all
ears if you think they'll work as well for less money. As for poor tool
work, I believe that is my middle name, but I'm improving.

Max
======================

Max,
Sears has one in their online catalog. It's a 60 degree, MT2, and cost is
$7.99. They once had a cup center, and it may be in their tool catalog,
but not in the online version.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Thanks, Ken. I'm not sure I need one any longer--spent my spare time the
past two days turning pine 2x2s and so far nary a catch. In fact, I'm
discovering just how much fun a skew can be when used properly. I'm still
not rolling nice beads yet, but my surface quality has improved 100%.
Thanks to the help from posters here (and some time spent with one of
Raffan's books), my learning curve is steepening.

Max

... In fact, I'm
discovering just how much fun a skew can be when used properly. I'm still
not rolling nice beads yet, but my surface quality has improved 100%.
Thanks to the help from posters here (and some time spent with one of
Raffan's books), my learning curve is steepening.

Glad to hear that you are making progress!

Several things will help with improving the form of the shapes you create.

First is the ability to look at the shape you make and identify exactly
what is wrong with it. This is quite a skill in itself so don't be
afraid to spend time taking a good long look at your work. A piece of
black card held behind the work can help you to see the profile more
clearly, but it is still up to you to decide what is good and bad about
it, and what wood you can remove to correct it.

Many novices have trouble deciding where to start cutting. Always
remember that you can only remove so much wood with a single cut. To
turn a square profile in to a circle, start at the corners with a small
cut and work towards your goal by making successive cuts parallel to the
desired result. Another approach is to take the corners off to create an
octagonal profile, then take a little off of each of the resulting
corners. This can be done very quickly with the short point of the skew.
When you are close to a circle you can make one fine cut all the way
around to leave a nice circle.

All the time of course you need to be watching the shape you are
creating. Remember that with a subtractive process like woodturning,
once you have cut a piece of wood off, you can't put it back on You
can either stop and look at the profile after each cut, or you can take
your eyes off the tool and watch the profile as you cut. This latter
approach has the benefit of teaching you turn by feel, a very important
skill which requires considerable empathy with the tools and the wood.

Keep at. Your perseverance will pay off.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
... In fact, I'm
discovering just how much fun a skew can be when used properly. I'm
still not rolling nice beads yet, but my surface quality has improved
100%. Thanks to the help from posters here (and some time spent with one
of Raffan's books), my learning curve is steepening.

Glad to hear that you are making progress!

Several things will help with improving the form of the shapes you create.

First is the ability to look at the shape you make and identify exactly
what is wrong with it. This is quite a skill in itself so don't be afraid
to spend time taking a good long look at your work. A piece of black card
held behind the work can help you to see the profile more clearly, but it
is still up to you to decide what is good and bad about it, and what wood
you can remove to correct it.

Many novices have trouble deciding where to start cutting. Always remember
that you can only remove so much wood with a single cut. To turn a square
profile in to a circle, start at the corners with a small cut and work
towards your goal by making successive cuts parallel to the desired
result. Another approach is to take the corners off to create an octagonal
profile, then take a little off of each of the resulting corners. This can
be done very quickly with the short point of the skew. When you are close
to a circle you can make one fine cut all the way around to leave a nice
circle.

All the time of course you need to be watching the shape you are creating.
Remember that with a subtractive process like woodturning, once you have
cut a piece of wood off, you can't put it back on You can either stop
and look at the profile after each cut, or you can take your eyes off the
tool and watch the profile as you cut. This latter approach has the
benefit of teaching you turn by feel, a very important skill which
requires considerable empathy with the tools and the wood.

Keep at. Your perseverance will pay off.

My problem is with small, narrow beads, not the larger ones. I seem to be
able to make wider curves, but the tiny two or three part beads, like those
decorating bowl rims, etc., are the ones I can't seem to create well. They
are harder to visualize, but that doesn't seem to be an issue. What is a
problem is my ability to roll the skew smoothly to round a, say, 1mm bead.
I'm wondering if a skew with rolled edges might help. I can actually do
slightly better with a fine detail gouge, but I'd really like to get these
things down with a skew. I guess I'm just pedantic enough to want to be
competent with every tool.

Thanks for the advice, Derek.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
My problem is with small, narrow beads, not the larger ones. I seem to be
able to make wider curves, but the tiny two or three part beads, like
those decorating bowl rims, etc., are the ones I can't seem to create
well. They are harder to visualize, but that doesn't seem to be an issue.
What is a problem is my ability to roll the skew smoothly to round a, say,
1mm bead. I'm wondering if a skew with rolled edges might help. I can
actually do slightly better with a fine detail gouge, but I'd really like
to get these things down with a skew. I guess I'm just pedantic enough to
want to be competent with every tool.


Beading tool. Bevel on one side, longer, not skewed. Alternate,
single-sided skew. More clearance in narrow quarters, no nose to catch with
the beading, and all plane real well. Don't have to buy one, as you
probably have a couple cheap scrapers you can convert.

The best tool for any job is the one that does it best in your hands.

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
My problem is with small, narrow beads, not the larger ones. I seem to
be able to make wider curves, but the tiny two or three part beads, like
those decorating bowl rims, etc., are the ones I can't seem to create
well. They are harder to visualize, but that doesn't seem to be an
issue. What is a problem is my ability to roll the skew smoothly to round
a, say, 1mm bead. I'm wondering if a skew with rolled edges might help.
I can actually do slightly better with a fine detail gouge, but I'd
really like to get these things down with a skew. I guess I'm just
pedantic enough to want to be competent with every tool.


Beading tool. Bevel on one side, longer, not skewed. Alternate,
single-sided skew. More clearance in narrow quarters, no nose to catch
with the beading, and all plane real well. Don't have to buy one, as you
probably have a couple cheap scrapers you can convert.

The best tool for any job is the one that does it best in your hands.

Funny, but after posting my last response to Derek, I chatted with a friend
in California--a long-term woodturner--who said the same thing--"use a
beading tool, fer cryin' out loud." After almost 30 years of turning, he
claims he still cannot make decent mini-beads with a skew. I guess I
shouldn't feel so bad.

I do have some cheap scrapers, including one narrow one I never use, that
I'll try to convert. Now I face the problem of being able to make a nice
set of half-coves on the tool with a small ledge in between. OR, Robert
Sorby has one for not too awfully much money, if I fail.

Max

Max
I am confused. to me a beading, or rather beading/parting tool, is a square
or rectangular tool used either as a parting or as a beading tool. The idea
is to use the narrow edge of your tool in a similar manner to a skew. For
instance, you wish to turn those 1mm beads on the edge of the bowl, as you
were discussing . Use the point formed by the conjunction of the two sides
of the parting tool to make a v cut leaving your 1mm ridge. Round the ridge
with the point formed by that conjunction in a similar manner to a skew.
However, in this case the skew is 1/8" wide and much easier to maneuver.
Those other beading tools are dedicated scrapers and likely work well but
this is more versatile.


--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

"Derek Andrews" wrote: (clip) " Another common problem is trying to cut
beads which are too small. The problem here is that the skew still needs to
swing and rotate through the same wide arc, but on a small bead it has to
do so over very little forward movement. This requires considerable
coordination. " (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That makes considerable sense.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
k.net...
Beading tool. Bevel on one side, longer, not skewed. Alternate,
single-sided skew. More clearance in narrow quarters, no nose to catch
with the beading, and all plane real well. Don't have to buy one, as you
probably have a couple cheap scrapers you can convert.


I do have some cheap scrapers, including one narrow one I never use, that
I'll try to convert. Now I face the problem of being able to make a nice
set of half-coves on the tool with a small ledge in between. OR, Robert
Sorby has one for not too awfully much money, if I fail.


What is often called a "beading tool" today is a scraper. The tool
traditionally referred to a beading tool was a chisel with a fairly long
bevel. Provides clearance on the non-bevel side to keep down those
annoying heel bruises caused by impacting the bevel on the opposite side.

As I posted earlier in this thread, skews used to come in left and right
flavors too. That way as you went to a steeper angle to cut and begin the
peel, you weren't butting up against the opposite bevel. Think of it as a
low-angle plane.

I'll pop a picture of mine and put it up tomorrow if the bright sunshine
calling me outside doesn't get in the way.

Actually, to turn a bead on a bowl I would use a three point tool which only
has one point but three cutting edges. Why is the darned thing not called a
pyramid tool? Whichever the name, it cuts well and is great for this
application.

By the way, to grind a radius into a scraper, mount a drill based grinding
wheel into your drill press, radius the edge with a grinding wheel dresser,
rig a table to stabilize the tool being presented, and grind the radius. Do
not make it complicated.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Tiny beads are really hard. I made a special tool out of a very small
1/4" square shaft spindle gouge which I rarely if ever used...re-ground
it so it now makes perfect beads as a scraper with a U shaped grind.

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
newsSOYf.36873$%H.3664@clgrps13...
Max
I am confused. to me a beading, or rather beading/parting tool, is a
square
or rectangular tool used either as a parting or as a beading tool. The
idea
is to use the narrow edge of your tool in a similar manner to a skew. For
instance, you wish to turn those 1mm beads on the edge of the bowl, as you
were discussing . Use the point formed by the conjunction of the two sides
of the parting tool to make a v cut leaving your 1mm ridge. Round the
ridge
with the point formed by that conjunction in a similar manner to a skew.
However, in this case the skew is 1/8" wide and much easier to maneuver.
Those other beading tools are dedicated scrapers and likely work well but
this is more versatile.

You don't sound confused at all, Darrell. And thanks for the
suggestion--I'd never have come up with that. I'll definitely give it a
try. Thanks for your website, too--it's full of great ideas.

Max

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:k8TYf.31729$K11.17248@clgrps12...
Actually, to turn a bead on a bowl I would use a three point tool which
only
has one point but three cutting edges. Why is the darned thing not called
a
pyramid tool? Whichever the name, it cuts well and is great for this
application.

I don't have one of these, but it looks fairly simple to grind.

Max

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
My problem is with small, narrow beads, not the larger ones. I seem to
be able to make wider curves, but the tiny two or three part beads, like
those decorating bowl rims, etc., are the ones I can't seem to create
well. They are harder to visualize, but that doesn't seem to be an
issue. What is a problem is my ability to roll the skew smoothly to
round a, say, 1mm bead. I'm wondering if a skew with rolled edges might
help. I can actually do slightly better with a fine detail gouge, but
I'd really like to get these things down with a skew. I guess I'm just
pedantic enough to want to be competent with every tool.


Small beads are a problem, and I touched on this in an earlier post:
" Another common problem is trying to cut beads which are too small. The
problem here is that the skew still needs to swing and rotate through the
same wide arc, but on a small bead it has to do so over very little
forward movement. This requires considerable coordination. "

For anything smaller than about 5mm across, I still tend to use a spindle
gouge. At these sizes they are just as fast and leave an adequate surface
quality.

Do you really mean 1mm? I could hardly see a bead that small, let alone
turn one!

I saw a local turner's works last summer, and several of his pieces had
lovely tiny beads decorating the rims or occasionally on the throat of a
hollow form vase. I should have asked him how he did them. They seemed to
be around 1mm in size, but measured from valley to valley, I suspect they
were larger. As you say 1mm is really small.

As for decorating a bowl rim, I would use a spindle gouge every time. I
wouldn't go near a bowl with a skew chisel.

Probably good advice for me, especially since I'm not that adept yet with a
skew. And while on the subject, will a skew cut endgrain smoothly? I've
never tried.

I keep a small spindle gouge for turning small beads, both on spindles and
bowls. It has a very long side grind and an acute sharpening angle. This
allows it to make a quite narrow V-groove between adjacent beads to cast a
deep shadow and give a nice crisp look.

But if you are getting anywhere near being able to turn a 1 mm bead with a
skew, keep at it. I would say that you are truly pushing your skill level
and will make a great turner.

I'm far from there at this point, but it would be nice to be able to do some
finer detail work that might help distinguish my work in the future.

I have a small detail gouge with which I'm getting better. I can do far
better beads with it than with a skew. It's really a great little tool, and
I'm sure I'll be inclined to use it instead of the skew if I'm doing some
piece for keeps.

Your advice is greatly appreciated, Derek.

Max

"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tiny beads are really hard. I made a special tool out of a very small
1/4" square shaft spindle gouge which I rarely if ever used...re-ground
it so it now makes perfect beads as a scraper with a U shaped grind.

I guess that is what I was thinking of as a "beading tool."

Max

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:08:01 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:

Not 1mm, but I've used this idea from Ken Vaughn and it works well:

http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65/bead_scraper.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65/scraper_sample.jpg

Text includes:
A recent project required turning a number of evenly spaced beads. I made a bead
scraper from an old Craftsman bench saw molding cutter bit. The handle came from
my favorite source of ash, broken baseball bats, and the bit holder from a large
square shank screwdriver. It worked very well so I made a few additional cutters
in cove profiles. Here is a sampler turned from a piece of maple.

(Thanks again to Ken and his site, I've gotten a lot form it)


"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
My problem is with small, narrow beads, not the larger ones. I seem to
be able to make wider curves, but the tiny two or three part beads, like
those decorating bowl rims, etc., are the ones I can't seem to create
well. They are harder to visualize, but that doesn't seem to be an
issue. What is a problem is my ability to roll the skew smoothly to
round a, say, 1mm bead. I'm wondering if a skew with rolled edges might
help. I can actually do slightly better with a fine detail gouge, but
I'd really like to get these things down with a skew. I guess I'm just
pedantic enough to want to be competent with every tool.


Small beads are a problem, and I touched on this in an earlier post:
" Another common problem is trying to cut beads which are too small. The
problem here is that the skew still needs to swing and rotate through the
same wide arc, but on a small bead it has to do so over very little
forward movement. This requires considerable coordination. "

For anything smaller than about 5mm across, I still tend to use a spindle
gouge. At these sizes they are just as fast and leave an adequate surface
quality.

Do you really mean 1mm? I could hardly see a bead that small, let alone
turn one!

I saw a local turner's works last summer, and several of his pieces had
lovely tiny beads decorating the rims or occasionally on the throat of a
hollow form vase. I should have asked him how he did them. They seemed to
be around 1mm in size, but measured from valley to valley, I suspect they
were larger. As you say 1mm is really small.

As for decorating a bowl rim, I would use a spindle gouge every time. I
wouldn't go near a bowl with a skew chisel.

Probably good advice for me, especially since I'm not that adept yet with a
skew. And while on the subject, will a skew cut endgrain smoothly? I've
never tried.

I keep a small spindle gouge for turning small beads, both on spindles and
bowls. It has a very long side grind and an acute sharpening angle. This
allows it to make a quite narrow V-groove between adjacent beads to cast a
deep shadow and give a nice crisp look.

But if you are getting anywhere near being able to turn a 1 mm bead with a
skew, keep at it. I would say that you are truly pushing your skill level
and will make a great turner.

I'm far from there at this point, but it would be nice to be able to do some
finer detail work that might help distinguish my work in the future.

I have a small detail gouge with which I'm getting better. I can do far
better beads with it than with a skew. It's really a great little tool, and
I'm sure I'll be inclined to use it instead of the skew if I'm doing some
piece for keeps.

Your advice is greatly appreciated, Derek.

Max


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:08:01 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:

Not 1mm, but I've used this idea from Ken Vaughn and it works well:

http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65/bead_scraper.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65/scraper_sample.jpg

Text includes:
A recent project required turning a number of evenly spaced beads. I made
a bead
scraper from an old Craftsman bench saw molding cutter bit. The handle
came from
my favorite source of ash, broken baseball bats, and the bit holder from a
large
square shank screwdriver. It worked very well so I made a few additional
cutters
in cove profiles. Here is a sampler turned from a piece of maple.

(Thanks again to Ken and his site, I've gotten a lot form it)

Those are cool, and do a nice job.

Max