The October 2005 issue of Woodwork (a steal at $4.99 US)
has an interesting article by Mike Darlow entitled
Turning Tools: Spotting Design Flaws.

Mr. Darlow, trained as a civil engineer, examines
roughing gouges
detail/spindle gouges
bowl gouges
skew chisels
parting tools
and some special tools
hollowing tools
multi purpose tools
tools which supposedly will compensate
for fault techniques
He analyzes these tools in terms of the mechanics
and physics of their use

The author points out that, unlike drop forged carbon
steel, which can be forged into a broad range of
cross sections, high speed steel cross sections are
more limited a) because the stock comes in limited
initial cross sections and b) grinding methods limit
the possible final cross sections. The result is that
turners get HSS tools that are easier to manufacture
but more difficult to use than drop forged carbon
steel tools. The limitations on cross sections of
tools that must be ground to shape can mean that
the tool can work against the turner.

He concludes that many turners assume that
if they buy reputable tool maker tools that
when a tool misbehaves it's their fault. It
often is - but in some cases, it's the tool.

The article provides a better understanding
of the use of the main turning tools

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.

charlie b

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
SNIP
The result is that
turners get HSS tools that are easier to manufacture
but more difficult to use than drop forged carbon
steel tools. The limitations on cross sections of
tools that must be ground to shape can mean that
the tool can work against the turner.

He concludes that many turners assume that
if they buy reputable tool maker tools that
when a tool misbehaves it's their fault. It
often is - but in some cases, it's the tool.


Don't expect this to go over well with the "I use my (big-name grind or
alloy here) gouge for everything" set. Some folks will go to any length to
defend an expensive purchase.

Hi Charlie, Thanks for the tip. Haven't read Darlow's article so
naturally, I'll ask a question and make a comment.

Does he mention where to buy a deep 'V' or 'U' fluted drop forged carbon
steel 'bowl' gouge?

Some of us find alloy steel gouges with deep 'V' or 'U' flutes, that
sport drawn back edges with high sounding names to be quite helpful.

That brayed, I sure like and use my old Sorby Sheffeld steel and my old
original Buck Brothers' carbon steel tools.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

(Arch) wrote in news:13082-43131934-492@storefull-
3176.bay.webtv.net:

Hi Charlie, Thanks for the tip. Haven't read Darlow's article so
naturally, I'll ask a question and make a comment.

Does he mention where to buy a deep 'V' or 'U' fluted drop forged carbon
steel 'bowl' gouge?

Some of us find alloy steel gouges with deep 'V' or 'U' flutes, that
sport drawn back edges with high sounding names to be quite helpful.

That brayed, I sure like and use my old Sorby Sheffeld steel and my old
original Buck Brothers' carbon steel tools.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


Arch, I'm not charlieb, but I read the article twice. Darlow doesn't say
'don't use these', but 'be aware of the compromises made', and 'use them
within their limits'. He also indicates several user mods that might help.

Sit tight & dry, there in Florida, sir.

Patriarch,
beginning curl producer...

George wrote:
Don't expect this to go over well with the "I use my (big-name grind or
alloy here) gouge for everything" set. Some folks will go to any length to
defend an expensive purchase.

charlie b responded
When I was making jewelry - on a budget - I knew folks who
bought every WhipZam New & Improved Custom Deluxe machine,
tool and device that came along and seemed to assume that the mere
possession of them would automatically make them a better
jeweler. All too often the thing didn't a) live up to the hype
in the ads and b) the owner usually didn't follow the limited
"instructions" that came with it, if it was read at all.

In most instances I've learned that expensive tools don't make
up for a lack of knowledge, skills and abilities (and I've bought
more than my share of that stuff - as those of you who also
are in rec.woodworking know) - or - take just as long to
learn to use them properly as the "not as good" machine/tool
and may not yield better results.

Arch wrote:
Does he mention where to buy a deep 'V' or 'U' fluted drop forged carbon
steel 'bowl' gouge?

Where to buy? No. In fact, he doesn't mention ANY brand names/
manufacturers. But he did describe why a deep "U" cross section
is safer to use than round stock with a semi-circle ground into it.
The deep "U" is less apt to catch/ dig in than the ground semi-circle
grind because of the 90 degree corners at the top of the "U".. It's
more apt to scrape than dig in

+-+ +
| | | \


Some of us find alloy steel gouges with deep 'V' or 'U' flutes, that
sport drawn back edges with high sounding names to be quite helpful.

I'm familiear with flat backed cutting tools with a straight cutting
edge - plane irons and bench chisels. With them, there's a trade
of between toughness and hardness.- if it's tough you need to touch
up the edge more often. If it's hard, when the edge chips rather
than dulls and it takes a lot longer to restore the edge. Having a
stone on the bench keeps the work flowing smoother than having
to stop and grind/ Scary Sharp or go through 3 or four grits of
stones.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of continuing to use a cutting tool after
the edge is dulled. And I have the luxury of having a set of old
Bucks, the blue handled Marples, Two Cherries and a set of
Crown butt chisels. And I've got spare irons for several of my
hand planes. To be even guiltier, I've got a Tormek, diamond
plates AND a set of Japanese waterstones so I have no excuse.
(drive by gloat is coincidental)

With turning tools however, the price tags preclude having
four of each one and some of the profiles are not easily
"touched up" at the bench and often require special jigs
to sharpen them. So with the limited turning tools I've
got (so far), I wait 'til I have several that really, really,
really need sharpening (ie - won't work worth a damn)
before I stop and go set up for sharpening.

That brayed, I sure like and use my old Sorby Sheffeld steel and my old
original Buck Brothers' carbon steel tools.

In the long run, it's eaier and quicker to maintain an edge
than to restore one.


Patriarch wrote:
Arch, I'm not charlieb, but I read the article twice. Darlow doesn't say
'don't use these', but 'be aware of the compromises made', and 'use them
within their limits'. He also indicates several user mods that might help.

Thanks for adding that point. The problem for me, as a newbie to
woodturning, is being nearly clueless as to what the limitiations
are, let alone how to stay within them. The article fills in some
of the major gaps in my knowledge and understanding of turning
tools mechanics/physics.

Sit tight & dry, there in Florida, sir.

Amen to that.

charlie b

charlie b wrote:

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

charlie b wrote:

To be even guiltier, I've got a Tormek, diamond
plates AND a set of Japanese waterstones so I have no excuse.
(drive by gloat is coincidental)


It's a wonder you've still got enough cash to
buy the gas for the drive by! )

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
George wrote:
Don't expect this to go over well with the "I use my (big-name grind or
alloy here) gouge for everything" set. Some folks will go to any length
to
defend an expensive purchase.

charlie b responded
When I was making jewelry - on a budget - I knew folks who
bought every WhipZam New & Improved Custom Deluxe machine,
tool and device that came along and seemed to assume that the mere
possession of them would automatically make them a better
jeweler. All too often the thing didn't a) live up to the hype
in the ads and b) the owner usually didn't follow the limited
"instructions" that came with it, if it was read at all.

In most instances I've learned that expensive tools don't make
up for a lack of knowledge, skills and abilities (and I've bought
more than my share of that stuff - as those of you who also
are in rec.woodworking know) - or - take just as long to
learn to use them properly as the "not as good" machine/tool
and may not yield better results.

Or, we indulge ourselves in a hobby without particular attention to
cost/benefit ratio. I own several one trick ponies because there are two
standard gift days and a Hallmark holiday per year, and I have three
children and a wife. Makes a dozen gifts per year, because who really
answers the "what do you want for _" question with "underwear?" Lately I've
escalated my requests, so they have to combine.

Read the article, and it's a good one, save he seems concerned only with the
entry into the cut in his analysis of rolling moment. Once the bevel is in
contact, it becomes part of the tool's stability, which is where
"fingernail" grinds fall further behind, because the bevel angle is
variable, and changing the depth of cut only can cause instability due to
angle of attack and lack of support.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote:
charlie b wrote:

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

Sorry to interrupt with a beside question: i there a link to the webside of
woodworking? I can't find it myself (shame, shame;-)
--

Groet, Gerard

Lobby Dosser wrote in news:RLLQe.15134
$Uz2.9025@trnddc02:

charlie b wrote:

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

Actually, the referenced article is in 'Woodwork'.

The Roubo bench article is in 'Woodworking', the newstand only pub from the
editors of PopWood. And it is an excellent article. Has me thinking about
a new bench, if I can work out the shop space issues...

Patriarch

Bezemsteel wrote:

"Lobby Dosser" wrote:
charlie b wrote:

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

Sorry to interrupt with a beside question: i there a link to the
webside of woodworking? I can't find it myself (shame, shame;-)

http://woodworking-magazine.com/

Was just going to google for myself and turned up everything but. Got the
address out of the magazine - surprise, surpise.

Patriarch wrote:

Lobby Dosser wrote in
news:RLLQe.15134 $Uz2.9025@trnddc02:

charlie b wrote:

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

Actually, the referenced article is in 'Woodwork'.

The Roubo bench article is in 'Woodworking', the newstand only pub
from the editors of PopWood. And it is an excellent article. Has me
thinking about a new bench, if I can work out the shop space issues...

Patriarch


Dang, you're right! Got both magazines on the night stand.

The Holdfast article makes you want to build the bench And take up
smithing (Wodworking). Don't think I can justify $50 a pop. Let's see,
anvil at $$$, forge $$$, ...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote:
Bezemsteel wrote:

"Lobby Dosser" wrote:
charlie b wrote:

The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

Sorry to interrupt with a beside question: i there a link to the
webside of woodworking? I can't find it myself (shame, shame;-)

http://woodworking-magazine.com/

Was just going to google for myself and turned up everything but. Got the
address out of the magazine - surprise, surpise.

Thank you! x2 ;-)

--

Groet, Gerard

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:hDSQe.11550$qg2.8609@trnddc05...
Patriarch wrote:

SNIP ...........
The Holdfast article makes you want to build the bench And take up
smithing (Wodworking). Don't think I can justify $50 a pop. Let's see,
anvil at $$$, forge $$$, ...
==========================

Harbor Freight has affordable anvils. For most tool making, a small one is
adequate. For a forge, cut a propane tank in half and use an old vacuum
cleaner exhaust as an air source. Then a bag or 2 of charcoal and youre in
the "home made" tool business. YMMV

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

http://www.thewoodexchange.com

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Bezemsteel wrote:
"Lobby Dosser" wrote:

Bezemsteel wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote:

charlie b wrote:


The article is worth the $5. The rest of the
articles, which are also interesting, are
gravy. Consider getting this copy of Woodworking.



The Bench article is also Recommended!

Sorry to interrupt with a beside question: i there a link to the
webside of woodworking? I can't find it myself (shame, shame;-)

http://woodworking-magazine.com/

Was just going to google for myself and turned up everything but. Got the
address out of the magazine - surprise, surpise.


Thank you! x2 ;-)


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here are some remarks from some very knowlegable members of a turning club I
belong to - I've removed their names and emails of course for privacy. in
short, they don't think much of the ariticle - personally, I haven't seen
it. maybe this will offer some counterpoint to the original post

Bill N



Dx,

When I saw this e-mail announcement and read it, my reaction was this does
mean anything to me and I'm not sure the guy knows what he is talking about.

Bx
----- Original Message -----
From: Dx
To: turnings
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:51 PM
Subject: [turnings] Fw: Article "Turning Tools:Spotting Desing Flaws


Bx, I read this article from Darlow. Believe me, it will make your eyes
glaze
over. He is basically a pompous gasbag with delusions of expertise. We
had
a written exchange in the 80's in the AAW magazine as he roundly
criticised a tool he had never seen before and claimed it didn't work.
That
was the Stabilax which I
invented and was tested and enthusiastically endorsed by all the leading
wood magazines. Thousands of that tool were sold and used all over the
world. It also apparently led to the development of other tools such as
the round skew chisel.
He bad-mouthed aluminum handles with shot in them in the current article.
(Such as in Jerry's tools) I would say Jerry is a more credible expert
than
Darlow. Dx



[Original Message]
From: william_b_noble
To:
Date: 8/29/05 9:07:09 PM
Subject: [turnings] Fw: Article "Turning Tools:Spotting Desing Flaws


----- Original Message -----
From: "charlie b" charlieb@
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.woodturning
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:31 PM
Subject: Article "Turning Tools:Spotting Desing Flaws


The October 2005 issue of Woodwork (a steal at $4.99 US)
has an interesting article by Mike Darlow entitled
Turning Tools: Spotting Design Flaws.

Mr. Darlow, trained as a civil engineer, examines
roughing gouges
detail/spindle gouges
bowl gouges
SNIP-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"william_b_noble" wrote in message
news:1125464123.7c46965dac54f8468cd015f9ef9b0de4@t eranews...
here are some remarks from some very knowlegable members of a turning club
I belong to - I've removed their names and emails of course for privacy.
in short, they don't think much of the ariticle - personally, I haven't
seen it. maybe this will offer some counterpoint to the original post

Bill N

Opinions, as my Drill Instructor said.

I'm disappointed that statics, rather than dynamics of cutting were the
focus, and, of course there are glaring flaws in his presentation. He
repeats the conventional wisdom of the "weak tang" as if it made a
difference with close toolrests, for instance.

To the rest of us he's at least as qualified as your knowledgeable members,
having put forth his analysis for us to see, rather than confining himself
to ad hominem remarks.

just sharing the knowlege - I haven't read the article, so I express no
opinion - though I would vouch for the expertise of my unnamed sources.
form your own opinions
"George" George@least wrote in message
...

snip

To the rest of us he's at least as qualified as your knowledgeable
members, having put forth his analysis for us to see, rather than
confining himself to ad hominem remarks.

Mike Darlow's website was included in the article - and of
course I forgot to include it in my original post. Here it
is for those who wish to check out his qualifications.

http://www.hinet.net.au/~mdarlow

As is so often the case there are opposing opinions of
someone else's analysis and conclusions. I was trained
in Chem E so the statics based analysis makes sense
to me in terms of the mechanics. I'm afraid that a
dynamics analysis would be a bit complicated to put
in a four or five page article.

I suspect that many turners learn to compensate
for a tools shortcomings, find a few they like and
stick with them, often defending their choices to
the death.

There are two of his articles on his site that I
found interesting - both rang some bells.

http://www.hinet.net.au/~mdarlow/Articles.htm

charlie b

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:23:44 -0400, George wrote:

Don't expect this to go over well with the "I use my (big-name grind or
alloy here) gouge for everything" set. Some folks will go to any length to
defend an expensive purchase.

I got a set of eight HSS tools from HF when I first got started (since the
set of 3 miniature tools were obviously not going to suffice). I use
perhaps 4 of them regularly. I get moderate use of my Sorby oval skew,
Sorby multi-purpose hollowing scraper thingy and Sorby bowl sander
thingamabob.*

But ya wanna know what gets the most use?

A 1/2 inch scraper from the HF and two other scrapers I made from tool
steel discarded by my employer.

I'm still very much into 'newbie learning mode', but I've now made a few
dozen objects and can see my tool use developing a pattern.

Bill



Anybody know where to get 2" wave-edge H&L sanding disks for less than
Woodcraft extorts, er, um 'charges'? Local to Detroit would be best but
mail order / web works, too. I'd buy in units of 100 or more if I could
get the price down to ~25 cents each.

W Canaday wrote:



Anybody know where to get 2" wave-edge H&L sanding disks for less than
Woodcraft extorts, er, um 'charges'? Local to Detroit would be best but
mail order / web works, too. I'd buy in units of 100 or more if I could
get the price down to ~25 cents each.

Packard has a little better price. Nice folks too.
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Common sense is what tells you the
earth is flat.





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