Ok, tried it on 3 bowls this weekend, after reading your post and studying Ron
Kent's page...

Questions:

Have you used it on soft wood, or only hard woods?


Does the LDD/water combo tint your work?
(with pine and fir, it turned them the same apple yellow as the LDD)

If you finish turn all the color (see above) off when thinning walls, etc., do
you then have to dry it conventionally, or can you still
stain/seal/buff/oil/whatever ?

Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over night....

Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the touch..
(Ron's method?)

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster that
this process usually does..

Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all three still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally... maybe
because it was soft wood???

HELP ME, MARGE!!!!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Answers are interspersed below:

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
Ok, tried it on 3 bowls this weekend, after reading your post and studying
Ron
Kent's page...

Questions:

Have you used it on soft wood, or only hard woods?


====Hi! I have only used LDD on yew, but no other softwoods. I figured
Ron's use of Norfolk Pine Yew amply proved that LDD would work on them.

Does the LDD/water combo tint your work?
(with pine and fir, it turned them the same apple yellow as the LDD)

If you finish turn all the color (see above) off when thinning walls,
etc., do
you then have to dry it conventionally, or can you still
stain/seal/buff/oil/whatever ?

=====Interesting. I tried applying LDD to various pieces/types of wood and
noticed no staining. Since it is believed that LDD penetrates only a cell
or two deep, turning and sanding should remove it as well as any perceived
stain. As soon as you have done that, apply the finish coat immediately.
More on that below!

Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over
night....

=====Yes on the LDD ratio. Otherwise, fine but not necessary if you plan to
turn the green blank immediately. If not, then immediately immerse in LDD
and basically, keep it in the solution until you are ready to finish the
piece off.

Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the
touch..
(Ron's method?)

==== I have had some success with that until I tried madrona. That stuff
cracks and warps if you even look at it! From that unsuccessful moment, I
have applied the rule of always keeping it in the solution until you are
ready to turn it and sand to finishing -- applying whatever finish
immediately.

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

=====Yes, but with the caveat stated above about immediately putting on the
finish coat or sealer.

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster
that
this process usually does..

=====Before or after the sealer? The wet sanding should have been done in
effect after the finish turning. There will very likely be LDD still in the
wood at this point, which you will note, cakes on your sandpaper but can be
cleaned to a degree by slapping the sandpaper on the ways. Mineral oil is a
miscible oil and should mix with any water or LDD. Did you wipe the turning
off of excess moisture/oil? I haven't done wet turning with mineral oil
until my sealer coat is on.

Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all three
still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally...
maybe
because it was soft wood???

====Speculation here, but think the wood is heavier as water is still in
the wood. The object with LDD is to keep evaporation down (thereby,
cracking and warping) while working the wood. The object to applying the
finish is also to slow down evaporation and retard cracking and warping.
This will occur over a period of time, my bowls have become increasingly
lighter as the evaporative process continues over months and years. All
finishes allow migration of water vapor. Some slower than others. Don't
know about the heavy plastic ones which may effectively seal the wood to
prevent that compared to lacquers, shellacs, oils, waxes, etc.

HELP ME, MARGE!!!!


mac

Mac:

I see Leif has answered, but my personal experience is somewhat different.... I'll
reply in-line below:

mac davis wrote:

Ok, tried it on 3 bowls this weekend, after reading your post and studying Ron
Kent's page...

Questions:

Have you used it on soft wood, or only hard woods?

I use it almost exclusively on softwoods, norfolk pine is my favorite.



Does the LDD/water combo tint your work?
(with pine and fir, it turned them the same apple yellow as the LDD)

I don't notice any tinting of the wood when done...



If you finish turn all the color (see above) off when thinning walls, etc., do
you then have to dry it conventionally, or can you still
stain/seal/buff/oil/whatever ?

Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over night....

I rough turn as wet as possible, depending upon the wood. For clear wood, right
away after cutting, if not, let it spalt some, then cut it (the water percentage
will usually be a little lower after spalting). Either way, there is water flying
around during the early part of turning, at least. I don't use LDD until I'm done
with the rough turning. If I need a break (hours or days) I just cover the bowl
blank with a plastic bag, sealing it up with spring clamps. I use faceplates for
rough turning, then turn a foot for a chuck for my sanding process. Yep, the
faceplates do rust a bit if I wait too long to get back to them, but not enough to
be a problem... I've never lost a bowl because I stopped turning part way through,
though sometimes, the spalting has changed (continued) while the blank was
bagged...

I use a mix of 4 parts water to one part LDD, and have about 30 gallons of solution
in a big plastic barrel (vat). To this, I add a half gallon of isopropyl (rubbing)
alcohol. The alcohol mostly keeps things from growing in the LDD vat. Some other
fellows think it may help the penetration, but I haven't run definitive tests yet
to really find out.

The rough turned wood goes in the LDD vat for a few days to a week or so, depending
upon how much I'm turning. If I'm turning a lot, then I push the oldest piece out
in about three or four days. If I'm turning less, I'll let them soak for a week
(or until I remember they are in the vat).

After removal from the LDD vat, I put them on a rack and let them dry. Mostly
"upside down" so they drain. After a few days, I'll flip them upright and leave
them that way until Dry... This means anywhere from a few weeks to months,
depending upon how thick the rough turning was. If there is any significant
moisture in the rough turned bowl, I wait before sanding.


Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the touch..
(Ron's method?)

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

Once they've dried, I sand. If I didn't do such a great job with the roughing, I
tend to drag out the "50 grit gouge" (I can go down to 24 grit in an emergency) to
finish shaping and such before proceeding with sanding. (I've taken a 5/8" thick
bowl down to 1/8" in little time, and don't have to worry about chatter or blowing
it up with a catch in the "final shaping" phase. Sanding is done with the bowl
mounted in a chuck and using power sanders (Sioux/Milwaukee angle drills and PS or
Hook and Loop paper on appropriate pads.) All sanding is done dry. The residual
LDD makes for easy sanding, the paper doesn't have any build up, but you have to
wear a mask because you can get some really fine dust in the air (and it does tend
to taste like soap, DAMHIKT). I typically sand to 600 grit, alternating the spin
direction of the lathe with each grit change along the way. On that really special
object I might go to 1200/1500, but it's a rare day I do something like that.


Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster that
this process usually does..

Once sanded, the bowl is cut off of the chuck, the bottom finish sanded, then it
goes into the "soup" which is a modified vat of danish oil until the bowl
saturates. (about 20 gallons of it) At first, the bowl floats, and needs to be
held down, but after awhile, it no longer floats. The process can vary from a
week to two or more, depending upon thickness before the object saturates. Here's
where you can really tell if it had any residual moisture, because you can see the
difference. After saturation, a dip and dry, buff and repeat process builds up a
surface film that helps protect the resultant object. A coat of wax and the bowl
is off to a gallery.


Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all three still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally... maybe
because it was soft wood???

If it's heavier, it's still probably wet, and no matter what finish you put on it,
it will eventually look bad... (once the water eventually gets out it will make the
finish dull, at the very least).

I think Leif mentioned he thought that the LDD is only one cell deep, but I can
tell you it's a lot deeper than that, because as I sand, I get soapy sawdust all
the way down to where I stop. Perhaps if you are only in the LDD vat for a few
hours, it may only go one deep, but that's not why I use LDD in the first place.



HELP ME, MARGE!!!!

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Good Luck!
-_Rick

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:06:58 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson" wrote:

Answers are interspersed below:

"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .
Ok, tried it on 3 bowls this weekend, after reading your post and studying
Ron
Kent's page...

Questions:

Have you used it on soft wood, or only hard woods?


====Hi! I have only used LDD on yew, but no other softwoods. I figured
Ron's use of Norfolk Pine Yew amply proved that LDD would work on them.

ok.. since Ron turns things paper thin, I had assumed (make an ass out of u &
me) that it was a pretty hard species of pine...

Does the LDD/water combo tint your work?
(with pine and fir, it turned them the same apple yellow as the LDD)

If you finish turn all the color (see above) off when thinning walls,
etc., do
you then have to dry it conventionally, or can you still
stain/seal/buff/oil/whatever ?

=====Interesting. I tried applying LDD to various pieces/types of wood and
noticed no staining. Since it is believed that LDD penetrates only a cell
or two deep, turning and sanding should remove it as well as any perceived
stain. As soon as you have done that, apply the finish coat immediately.
More on that below!


Again, might have been the soft pine and fir, but I rough turned the walls about
3.8" and had to go down to VERY thin, maybe 3/16, to get all the color off..
interesting experience, as I have no experience turning thin stuff.. real pucker
factor involved.. *g*

Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over
night....

=====Yes on the LDD ratio. Otherwise, fine but not necessary if you plan to
turn the green blank immediately. If not, then immediately immerse in LDD
and basically, keep it in the solution until you are ready to finish the
piece off.

Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the
touch..
(Ron's method?)

==== I have had some success with that until I tried madrona. That stuff
cracks and warps if you even look at it! From that unsuccessful moment, I
have applied the rule of always keeping it in the solution until you are
ready to turn it and sand to finishing -- applying whatever finish
immediately.

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

=====Yes, but with the caveat stated above about immediately putting on the
finish coat or sealer.

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster
that
this process usually does..

=====Before or after the sealer? The wet sanding should have been done in
effect after the finish turning. There will very likely be LDD still in the
wood at this point, which you will note, cakes on your sandpaper but can be
cleaned to a degree by slapping the sandpaper on the ways. Mineral oil is a
miscible oil and should mix with any water or LDD. Did you wipe the turning
off of excess moisture/oil? I haven't done wet turning with mineral oil
until my sealer coat is on.

yeah... it's the way I've done several bowls lately... sand to almost done, then
coat with Mineral Oil and let it soak in... wipe it off and wet sand with 400
grit until most of the surface oil is sanded off, then another coat of oil..
buff the oil the next day and then wax if desired..
Learned the process he
http://www.laymar-crafts.co.uk/tech2.html

Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all three
still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally...
maybe
because it was soft wood???

====Speculation here, but think the wood is heavier as water is still in
the wood. The object with LDD is to keep evaporation down (thereby,
cracking and warping) while working the wood. The object to applying the
finish is also to slow down evaporation and retard cracking and warping.
This will occur over a period of time, my bowls have become increasingly
lighter as the evaporative process continues over months and years. All
finishes allow migration of water vapor. Some slower than others. Don't
know about the heavy plastic ones which may effectively seal the wood to
prevent that compared to lacquers, shellacs, oils, waxes, etc.

HELP ME, MARGE!!!!


thanks, Leif.... I may not know what I'm doing, but I'm having fun
experimenting.... even the medium thickness bowls have a wonderful translucent
look that seems to have something to do with the LDD..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:00:04 GMT, Rick Frazier wrote:

Mac:

I see Leif has answered, but my personal experience is somewhat different.... I'll
reply in-line below:

mac davis wrote:


Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over night....

I rough turn as wet as possible, depending upon the wood. For clear wood, right
away after cutting, if not, let it spalt some, then cut it (the water percentage
will usually be a little lower after spalting). Either way, there is water flying
around during the early part of turning, at least. I don't use LDD until I'm done
with the rough turning. If I need a break (hours or days) I just cover the bowl
blank with a plastic bag, sealing it up with spring clamps. I use faceplates for
rough turning, then turn a foot for a chuck for my sanding process. Yep, the
faceplates do rust a bit if I wait too long to get back to them, but not enough to
be a problem... I've never lost a bowl because I stopped turning part way through,
though sometimes, the spalting has changed (continued) while the blank was
bagged...

thanks, Rick.. my process is pretty much the same, except that I usually get
lazy and use the chuck screw instead of the face plate...
All this wood is fresh cut and VERY wet... After turning a bowl, my arms, shirt
and a lot of the lathe space are soaked.. lol

I use a mix of 4 parts water to one part LDD, and have about 30 gallons of solution
in a big plastic barrel (vat). To this, I add a half gallon of isopropyl (rubbing)
alcohol. The alcohol mostly keeps things from growing in the LDD vat. Some other
fellows think it may help the penetration, but I haven't run definitive tests yet
to really find out.

that's really good to know, as so far I've stuck to the 50/50 mixture... 3 or 4
parts to one would make it easier to deal with...

The rough turned wood goes in the LDD vat for a few days to a week or so, depending
upon how much I'm turning. If I'm turning a lot, then I push the oldest piece out
in about three or four days. If I'm turning less, I'll let them soak for a week
(or until I remember they are in the vat).

After removal from the LDD vat, I put them on a rack and let them dry. Mostly
"upside down" so they drain. After a few days, I'll flip them upright and leave
them that way until Dry... This means anywhere from a few weeks to months,
depending upon how thick the rough turning was. If there is any significant
moisture in the rough turned bowl, I wait before sanding.


Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the touch..
(Ron's method?)

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

Once they've dried, I sand. If I didn't do such a great job with the roughing, I
tend to drag out the "50 grit gouge" (I can go down to 24 grit in an emergency) to
finish shaping and such before proceeding with sanding. (I've taken a 5/8" thick
bowl down to 1/8" in little time, and don't have to worry about chatter or blowing
it up with a catch in the "final shaping" phase. Sanding is done with the bowl
mounted in a chuck and using power sanders (Sioux/Milwaukee angle drills and PS or
Hook and Loop paper on appropriate pads.) All sanding is done dry. The residual
LDD makes for easy sanding, the paper doesn't have any build up, but you have to
wear a mask because you can get some really fine dust in the air (and it does tend
to taste like soap, DAMHIKT). I typically sand to 600 grit, alternating the spin
direction of the lathe with each grit change along the way. On that really special
object I might go to 1200/1500, but it's a rare day I do something like that.

I'd love the luxury of reversing the lathe, but don't have that option... I end
up hand sanding some stuff because the grain and bowl rotation don't match
well.. *sigh*

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster that
this process usually does..

Once sanded, the bowl is cut off of the chuck, the bottom finish sanded, then it
goes into the "soup" which is a modified vat of danish oil until the bowl
saturates. (about 20 gallons of it) At first, the bowl floats, and needs to be
held down, but after awhile, it no longer floats. The process can vary from a
week to two or more, depending upon thickness before the object saturates. Here's
where you can really tell if it had any residual moisture, because you can see the
difference. After saturation, a dip and dry, buff and repeat process builds up a
surface film that helps protect the resultant object. A coat of wax and the bowl
is off to a gallery.


Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all three still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally... maybe
because it was soft wood???

If it's heavier, it's still probably wet, and no matter what finish you put on it,
it will eventually look bad... (once the water eventually gets out it will make the
finish dull, at the very least).

ok... that's a big question... should the bowl dry longer than I've been doing?
I think that I've misunderstood the process, as your method, drying them for
weeks.... makes sense as long as they don't crack..

I was thinking that once they came out of the LDD, they had to be finish turned
and sealed ASAP..



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:00:04 GMT, Rick Frazier
wrote:

Mac:

I see Leif has answered, but my personal experience is somewhat
different.... I'll
reply in-line below:

mac davis wrote:


Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over
night....

I rough turn as wet as possible, depending upon the wood. For clear wood,
right
away after cutting, if not, let it spalt some, then cut it (the water
percentage
will usually be a little lower after spalting). Either way, there is water
flying
around during the early part of turning, at least. I don't use LDD until
I'm done
with the rough turning. If I need a break (hours or days) I just cover
the bowl
blank with a plastic bag, sealing it up with spring clamps. I use
faceplates for
rough turning, then turn a foot for a chuck for my sanding process. Yep,
the
faceplates do rust a bit if I wait too long to get back to them, but not
enough to
be a problem... I've never lost a bowl because I stopped turning part way
through,
though sometimes, the spalting has changed (continued) while the blank was
bagged...

thanks, Rick.. my process is pretty much the same, except that I usually
get
lazy and use the chuck screw instead of the face plate...
All this wood is fresh cut and VERY wet... After turning a bowl, my arms,
shirt
and a lot of the lathe space are soaked.. lol

I use a mix of 4 parts water to one part LDD, and have about 30 gallons of
solution
in a big plastic barrel (vat). To this, I add a half gallon of isopropyl
(rubbing)
alcohol. The alcohol mostly keeps things from growing in the LDD vat.
Some other
fellows think it may help the penetration, but I haven't run definitive
tests yet
to really find out.

that's really good to know, as so far I've stuck to the 50/50 mixture... 3
or 4
parts to one would make it easier to deal with...

The rough turned wood goes in the LDD vat for a few days to a week or so,
depending
upon how much I'm turning. If I'm turning a lot, then I push the oldest
piece out
in about three or four days. If I'm turning less, I'll let them soak for
a week
(or until I remember they are in the vat).

After removal from the LDD vat, I put them on a rack and let them dry.
Mostly
"upside down" so they drain. After a few days, I'll flip them upright and
leave
them that way until Dry... This means anywhere from a few weeks to months,
depending upon how thick the rough turning was. If there is any
significant
moisture in the rough turned bowl, I wait before sanding.


Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the
touch..
(Ron's method?)

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

Once they've dried, I sand. If I didn't do such a great job with the
roughing, I
tend to drag out the "50 grit gouge" (I can go down to 24 grit in an
emergency) to
finish shaping and such before proceeding with sanding. (I've taken a
5/8" thick
bowl down to 1/8" in little time, and don't have to worry about chatter or
blowing
it up with a catch in the "final shaping" phase. Sanding is done with the
bowl
mounted in a chuck and using power sanders (Sioux/Milwaukee angle drills
and PS or
Hook and Loop paper on appropriate pads.) All sanding is done dry. The
residual
LDD makes for easy sanding, the paper doesn't have any build up, but you
have to
wear a mask because you can get some really fine dust in the air (and it
does tend
to taste like soap, DAMHIKT). I typically sand to 600 grit, alternating
the spin
direction of the lathe with each grit change along the way. On that
really special
object I might go to 1200/1500, but it's a rare day I do something like
that.

I'd love the luxury of reversing the lathe, but don't have that option...
I end
up hand sanding some stuff because the grain and bowl rotation don't match
well.. *sigh*

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster
that
this process usually does..

Once sanded, the bowl is cut off of the chuck, the bottom finish sanded,
then it
goes into the "soup" which is a modified vat of danish oil until the bowl
saturates. (about 20 gallons of it) At first, the bowl floats, and needs
to be
held down, but after awhile, it no longer floats. The process can vary
from a
week to two or more, depending upon thickness before the object saturates.
Here's
where you can really tell if it had any residual moisture, because you can
see the
difference. After saturation, a dip and dry, buff and repeat process
builds up a
surface film that helps protect the resultant object. A coat of wax and
the bowl
is off to a gallery.


Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all
three still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally...
maybe
because it was soft wood???

If it's heavier, it's still probably wet, and no matter what finish you
put on it,
it will eventually look bad... (once the water eventually gets out it will
make the
finish dull, at the very least).

ok... that's a big question... should the bowl dry longer than I've been
doing?
I think that I've misunderstood the process, as your method, drying them
for
weeks.... makes sense as long as they don't crack..

I was thinking that once they came out of the LDD, they had to be finish
turned
and sealed ASAP..

Rick has some interesting techniques, some of which are contrary to my
experience; however, the old adage applies. Whatever works, works! One
note about leaving the stuff to dry: I found it too risky and that coupled
with my natural impatience to finish a project, wanted to get it done and
not have a bunch of things sitting around drying. After all, that is what
lead to my search and finding out about LDD from Ron Kent. Rick's drying
method may well fit in more with a professional/production turner. I tend
to work at one thing at a time.

The ratio of LDD, seems problematic. If Rick's ratio works for him, great.
The thing that I hang my hat on is that I have the same LDD in a "vat" that
I started with, and with the addition of a quart or two of LDD once a year,
really doesn't cost any more except for the initial investment ($15.00???).
Perhaps more has to be added when you are processing more wood, as the water
from the wood will thin the solution. I kept a check on it with a
hydrometer for about a year and found out that adding a quart or so of LDD
kept the Specific Gravity of the 50/50 solution at the recommended ratio.

In any event, I am gratified to hear about the experience of turners with
LDD. I don't know how many emails of guidance and copies of the "Treatise"
I have sent out due to computer problems, but I hadn't gotten many comments
back on the efficacy of the process for others. Thanks guys, for your
input! May the Spirit of LDD Protect you from cracks and warps! *G*

Leif

"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...
The ratio of LDD, seems problematic. If Rick's ratio works for him,
great.
The thing that I hang my hat on is that I have the same LDD in a "vat"
that
I started with, and with the addition of a quart or two of LDD once a
year,
really doesn't cost any more except for the initial investment
($15.00???).
Perhaps more has to be added when you are processing more wood, as the
water
from the wood will thin the solution. I kept a check on it with a
hydrometer for about a year and found out that adding a quart or so of LDD
kept the Specific Gravity of the 50/50 solution at the recommended ratio.


Why should the ratio seem problematic? If the bush burns but is not
consumed, why should the number of branches affect the light?

If there were some sort of chemical reaction, of course, conventional
chemistry would demand replacement of reagent.

If there were a physical replacement, what did the replacement would have to
be regularly replenished.

Rick, how is the Danish oil modified and what are the added properties?
Whatever the other improvements, it likely doesn't gel. That could get
expensive.

Final shaping by sanding is a technique that's not often mentioned here.
At least it's new to me as is reducing wall thickness from 5/8in. to
1/8in. with a coarse grit 'gouge'. Is this something that you found
that you _could do_ or is it a technique that you actually use and
consider worthwhile to advocate for all of us?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"George" george@least wrote in message
...

"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...
The ratio of LDD, seems problematic. If Rick's ratio works for him,
great.
The thing that I hang my hat on is that I have the same LDD in a "vat"
that
I started with, and with the addition of a quart or two of LDD once a
year,
really doesn't cost any more except for the initial investment
($15.00???).
Perhaps more has to be added when you are processing more wood, as the
water
from the wood will thin the solution. I kept a check on it with a
hydrometer for about a year and found out that adding a quart or so of
LDD
kept the Specific Gravity of the 50/50 solution at the recommended ratio.

George: Here's my; answer to your questions based on vaguely recalled
chemistry classes in alchemical times. Perhaps newer, better, more correct
answers are available from one of the members of the rec. *G*

Why should the ratio seem problematic? If the bush burns but is not
consumed, why should the number of branches affect the light?

=====By problematic, I meant that people use differing ratios of LDD to
water. Some have reported that theirs didn't work and blamed it on too thin
a solution. Perhaps Rick is exercising some thaumaturgical abilities on the
wood. Perhaps involving zen-like incantations?

If there were some sort of chemical reaction, of course, conventional
chemistry would demand replacement of reagent.

======LDD is hydrophilic, has a higher molar weight and in the course of
drawing out the water through the membrane of cell walls, it thins the LDD
solution. I guess that could be called a chemical reaction? Therefore, the
more wood one soaks in LDD solution, the thinner the solution gets. Ergo,
the drop in specific gravity and the need to occasionally add more LDD to
the solution. Rick didn't make any mention of adding more LDD to his 4:1
ratio of solution over time and I would be interested to hear what he does
or doesn't do in this regard. If the solution is so thinned out as to
approach the same molar weight of water in the cells, no water will be
extracted and the solution will essentially be water.

If there were a physical replacement, what did the replacement would have
to
be regularly replenished.

=====Don't understand the question. Perhaps you could rephrase it?

Leif

I guess that could be called a chemical reaction?

fyi: Since there is no exchange of energy (exothermic or endothermic) and
since the chemicals remain unchanged, no chemical reaction goes on. What's
happening is a physical phenomenon. Not unlike how a wick or siphon works.
Dan

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:dFqne.345$x96.4@attbi_s72...
I guess that could be called a chemical reaction?

fyi: Since there is no exchange of energy (exothermic or endothermic) and
since the chemicals remain unchanged, no chemical reaction goes on. What's
happening is a physical phenomenon. Not unlike how a wick or siphon
works.
Dan

So that explains why the lead wasn't turned into gold! Drat! *G*

Leif

I guess that could be called a chemical reaction?

fyi: Since there is no exchange of energy (exothermic or endothermic)
and
since the chemicals remain unchanged, no chemical reaction goes on.
What's
happening is a physical phenomenon. Not unlike how a wick or siphon
works.
Dan

So that explains why the lead wasn't turned into gold! Drat! *G*


Double Drat! I should have said, "What I think is going on... since we
don't yet know the LDD mystery." Dan

Leif:

I agree with your sentiments on most items, and we can all learn something from
what works or doesn't work for someone else. It is important for people to
realize that the primary reason I use LDD is to make sanding easier, not to keep
the cracking and checking down. With Norfolk Pine, anyway, there isn't as much
problem with cracking as with other woods. In addition, even with some
problematic woods, different techniques will allow making a bowl without losing
it to shrinkage cracks. (For example, an end grain bowl of Macadamia Nut wood
is a beautiful thing, but it is a rare day you get one done without it splitting
from the edge to the center. On the other hand, wood from the same stump,
turned side grain can make a really nice natural edge bowl without nary a
problem...)

I haven't gone to the trouble of using a hydrometer to check the specific
gravity of the LDD vat, but do add more (and/or water) as it "feels right" for
my application. If I had the time, I'd do a more scientific study of several
woods that are commonly available here to see if they responded to higher
concentrations of LDD to water, but as I don't turn them as often, I just
haven't taken the time. Perhaps when I get my new workshop built, I'll
(temporarily, at least) have enough space to do something like that.

As you have indicated, we each need to determine what works for us, and that
also means experimentation. Without that, we wouldn't even be using LDD in any
concentration, or for any reasons except trying to get the dirt off our hands.
I comment everyone for wanting to learn more about what others do, and think
healthy discussions like these help us all. I don't think I'll be doing any
"high concentration" LDD for the near future at least, or primarily for crack
abatement, but that could change in an instant if a need arose.

We all need to do what makes sense for us. Here in Hawaii, there are several
people that are playing with or using versions of the LDD process (I think Ron
Kent is on Oahu. I'm on Hawaii, the big island). Quite a few on this island
are using a variation of modified Danish oil for Norfolk Pine (and some other
woods), and the incredible amount of sharing going on here has helped us all. I
know I wouldn't be using the process if it hadn't been shared by someone else
first.

Thanks you for carrying the LDD cross, so to speak, so others can also learn
what works for you, and for listening to what others have said. It only helps
us all in the end.

Thanks
-_Rick

Leif Thorvaldson wrote:

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:00:04 GMT, Rick Frazier
wrote:

Mac:

I see Leif has answered, but my personal experience is somewhat
different.... I'll
reply in-line below:

mac davis wrote:


Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over
night....

I rough turn as wet as possible, depending upon the wood. For clear wood,
right
away after cutting, if not, let it spalt some, then cut it (the water
percentage
will usually be a little lower after spalting). Either way, there is water
flying
around during the early part of turning, at least. I don't use LDD until
I'm done
with the rough turning. If I need a break (hours or days) I just cover
the bowl
blank with a plastic bag, sealing it up with spring clamps. I use
faceplates for
rough turning, then turn a foot for a chuck for my sanding process. Yep,
the
faceplates do rust a bit if I wait too long to get back to them, but not
enough to
be a problem... I've never lost a bowl because I stopped turning part way
through,
though sometimes, the spalting has changed (continued) while the blank was
bagged...

thanks, Rick.. my process is pretty much the same, except that I usually
get
lazy and use the chuck screw instead of the face plate...
All this wood is fresh cut and VERY wet... After turning a bowl, my arms,
shirt
and a lot of the lathe space are soaked.. lol

I use a mix of 4 parts water to one part LDD, and have about 30 gallons of
solution
in a big plastic barrel (vat). To this, I add a half gallon of isopropyl
(rubbing)
alcohol. The alcohol mostly keeps things from growing in the LDD vat.
Some other
fellows think it may help the penetration, but I haven't run definitive
tests yet
to really find out.

that's really good to know, as so far I've stuck to the 50/50 mixture... 3
or 4
parts to one would make it easier to deal with...

The rough turned wood goes in the LDD vat for a few days to a week or so,
depending
upon how much I'm turning. If I'm turning a lot, then I push the oldest
piece out
in about three or four days. If I'm turning less, I'll let them soak for
a week
(or until I remember they are in the vat).

After removal from the LDD vat, I put them on a rack and let them dry.
Mostly
"upside down" so they drain. After a few days, I'll flip them upright and
leave
them that way until Dry... This means anywhere from a few weeks to months,
depending upon how thick the rough turning was. If there is any
significant
moisture in the rough turned bowl, I wait before sanding.


Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the
touch..
(Ron's method?)

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

Once they've dried, I sand. If I didn't do such a great job with the
roughing, I
tend to drag out the "50 grit gouge" (I can go down to 24 grit in an
emergency) to
finish shaping and such before proceeding with sanding. (I've taken a
5/8" thick
bowl down to 1/8" in little time, and don't have to worry about chatter or
blowing
it up with a catch in the "final shaping" phase. Sanding is done with the
bowl
mounted in a chuck and using power sanders (Sioux/Milwaukee angle drills
and PS or
Hook and Loop paper on appropriate pads.) All sanding is done dry. The
residual
LDD makes for easy sanding, the paper doesn't have any build up, but you
have to
wear a mask because you can get some really fine dust in the air (and it
does tend
to taste like soap, DAMHIKT). I typically sand to 600 grit, alternating
the spin
direction of the lathe with each grit change along the way. On that
really special
object I might go to 1200/1500, but it's a rare day I do something like
that.

I'd love the luxury of reversing the lathe, but don't have that option...
I end
up hand sanding some stuff because the grain and bowl rotation don't match
well.. *sigh*

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster
that
this process usually does..

Once sanded, the bowl is cut off of the chuck, the bottom finish sanded,
then it
goes into the "soup" which is a modified vat of danish oil until the bowl
saturates. (about 20 gallons of it) At first, the bowl floats, and needs
to be
held down, but after awhile, it no longer floats. The process can vary
from a
week to two or more, depending upon thickness before the object saturates.
Here's
where you can really tell if it had any residual moisture, because you can
see the
difference. After saturation, a dip and dry, buff and repeat process
builds up a
surface film that helps protect the resultant object. A coat of wax and
the bowl
is off to a gallery.


Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all
three still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally...
maybe
because it was soft wood???

If it's heavier, it's still probably wet, and no matter what finish you
put on it,
it will eventually look bad... (once the water eventually gets out it will
make the
finish dull, at the very least).

ok... that's a big question... should the bowl dry longer than I've been
doing?
I think that I've misunderstood the process, as your method, drying them
for
weeks.... makes sense as long as they don't crack..

I was thinking that once they came out of the LDD, they had to be finish
turned
and sealed ASAP..

Rick has some interesting techniques, some of which are contrary to my
experience; however, the old adage applies. Whatever works, works! One
note about leaving the stuff to dry: I found it too risky and that coupled
with my natural impatience to finish a project, wanted to get it done and
not have a bunch of things sitting around drying. After all, that is what
lead to my search and finding out about LDD from Ron Kent. Rick's drying
method may well fit in more with a professional/production turner. I tend
to work at one thing at a time.

The ratio of LDD, seems problematic. If Rick's ratio works for him, great.
The thing that I hang my hat on is that I have the same LDD in a "vat" that
I started with, and with the addition of a quart or two of LDD once a year,
really doesn't cost any more except for the initial investment ($15.00???).
Perhaps more has to be added when you are processing more wood, as the water
from the wood will thin the solution. I kept a check on it with a
hydrometer for about a year and found out that adding a quart or so of LDD
kept the Specific Gravity of the 50/50 solution at the recommended ratio.

In any event, I am gratified to hear about the experience of turners with
LDD. I don't know how many emails of guidance and copies of the "Treatise"
I have sent out due to computer problems, but I hadn't gotten many comments
back on the efficacy of the process for others. Thanks guys, for your
input! May the Spirit of LDD Protect you from cracks and warps! *G*

Leif

Arch:

Mostly, I start with a commercial Danish oil and add more BLO (Boiled
Linseed Oil), Polyurethane, and a fair bit of thinner to arrive at my
soaking solution. It DOES eventually gel, but with various adjustments
along the way, I can usually get a couple of years out of a batch before I
need to throw it out and start anew. (It's painful to do so, because it is
really difficult these days because everything is considered toxic waste.
Getting the remaining ten or fifteen gallons of soup dried so it can be
disposed of is a chore in itself.)

The "coarse grit gouge" is kind of a local joke here in Hawaii, and for me
is mostly a response to blowing up bowls during that "last cut". I really
got tired of ducking chunks of bowl when I got a bit of chatter (usually
reaching too deep into a vessel for the shank diameter of tool or a thinning
edge) or just "lost it" because I was turning a bit too fast for the
diameter and thickness I was working on. It was also a response to problems
with the tools I was using. Sometimes, I would get a little torn grain
(usually on the inside of a bowl) from improper tool technique, or pushing
on too long without sharpening. Cleaning this up sometimes is extremely
difficult, and if I left extra wood, I found it was quicker and easier to
just sand it away later, especially once I found the LDD worked to help make
sanding easier. Sometimes I just run out of time on a turning session, and
when I get back to the bowl, it's easier to just plunk it into the LDD
solution, and on to drying and grinding than it would be to risk breaking it
by trying to turn it thinner to begin with. Most days, I turn to a
considerably thinner wall than 1/2 or 5/8" because I have the time and the
wood is cooperating. If I'm short on time, or I seem to be pressing my
luck, I leave it thicker because I know I can just grind it out later, and
it really doesn't take all that long (especially compared to cutting a new
bowl from a raw log section).

However, the biggest reason I use LDD is to make sanding faster and keep the
paper from loading. I've really had minimal problems with shrink
checking/cracking with Norfolk pine over the past few years... There have
been a few other woods that I've worked that were definitely in the category
of needing help, but having other techniques in the old tool bag besides LDD
are helpful too.

A purist would say I'm hacking my way to the final shape, not finessing it
into being (only) with metal tools. A few would even say it's wrong to use
abrasives more coarse than 150 grit on anything turned, and that if it is
needed, you're not really a turner at all. Of course, they have their right
to their opinion, just as I have a right to grind out a bowl if I feel a
desire to. What I really think counts is what it looks like when it's done,
not necessarily how you get there. As a result, we all have different
methods, and like many other people, I'm always looking for a new method
that may make it possible to turn out work with less time without
compromising quality of the finished object.

Just hearing of others successes and failures gives me ideas to try in my
own work, and I hope that the process I use may give others ideas that they
might be able to consider. Everyone works differently, and what works for
you may not work for me, and so forth. I think forums like this allow us to
all share in a manner that can help each other, whether we know it or not...

Thanks
--Rick

Arch wrote:

Rick, how is the Danish oil modified and what are the added properties?
Whatever the other improvements, it likely doesn't gel. That could get
expensive.

Final shaping by sanding is a technique that's not often mentioned here.
At least it's new to me as is reducing wall thickness from 5/8in. to
1/8in. with a coarse grit 'gouge'. Is this something that you found
that you _could do_ or is it a technique that you actually use and
consider worthwhile to advocate for all of us?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Leif:

I agree with your sentiments on most items, and we can all learn something from
what works or doesn't work for someone else. It is important for people to
realize that the primary reason I use LDD is to make sanding easier, not to keep
the cracking and checking down. With Norfolk Pine, anyway, there isn't as much
problem with cracking as with other woods. In addition, even with some
problematic woods, different techniques will allow making a bowl without losing
it to shrinkage cracks. (For example, an end grain bowl of Macadamia Nut wood
is a beautiful thing, but it is a rare day you get one done without it splitting
from the edge to the center. On the other hand, wood from the same stump,
turned side grain can make a really nice natural edge bowl without nary a
problem...)

I haven't gone to the trouble of using a hydrometer to check the specific
gravity of the LDD vat, but do add more (and/or water) as it "feels right" for
my application. If I had the time, I'd do a more scientific study of several
woods that are commonly available here to see if they responded to higher
concentrations of LDD to water, but as I don't turn them as often, I just
haven't taken the time. Perhaps when I get my new workshop built, I'll
(temporarily, at least) have enough space to do something like that.

As you have indicated, we each need to determine what works for us, and that
also means experimentation. Without that, we wouldn't even be using LDD in any
concentration, or for any reasons except trying to get the dirt off our hands.
I comment everyone for wanting to learn more about what others do, and think
healthy discussions like these help us all. I don't think I'll be doing any
"high concentration" LDD for the near future at least, or primarily for crack
abatement, but that could change in an instant if a need arose.

We all need to do what makes sense for us. Here in Hawaii, there are several
people that are playing with or using versions of the LDD process (I think Ron
Kent is on Oahu. I'm on Hawaii, the big island). Quite a few on this island
are using a variation of modified Danish oil for Norfolk Pine (and some other
woods), and the incredible amount of sharing going on here has helped us all. I
know I wouldn't be using the process if it hadn't been shared by someone else
first.

Thanks you for carrying the LDD cross, so to speak, so others can also learn
what works for you, and for listening to what others have said. It only helps
us all in the end.

Thanks
-_Rick

Leif Thorvaldson wrote:

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:00:04 GMT, Rick Frazier
wrote:

Mac:

I see Leif has answered, but my personal experience is somewhat
different.... I'll
reply in-line below:

mac davis wrote:


Was my procedure roughly correct:
Rough turned very green, wet bowls and soaked them in 50/50 LDD over
night....

I rough turn as wet as possible, depending upon the wood. For clear wood,
right
away after cutting, if not, let it spalt some, then cut it (the water
percentage
will usually be a little lower after spalting). Either way, there is water
flying
around during the early part of turning, at least. I don't use LDD until
I'm done
with the rough turning. If I need a break (hours or days) I just cover
the bowl
blank with a plastic bag, sealing it up with spring clamps. I use
faceplates for
rough turning, then turn a foot for a chuck for my sanding process. Yep,
the
faceplates do rust a bit if I wait too long to get back to them, but not
enough to
be a problem... I've never lost a bowl because I stopped turning part way
through,
though sometimes, the spalting has changed (continued) while the blank was
bagged...

thanks, Rick.. my process is pretty much the same, except that I usually
get
lazy and use the chuck screw instead of the face plate...
All this wood is fresh cut and VERY wet... After turning a bowl, my arms,
shirt
and a lot of the lathe space are soaked.. lol

I use a mix of 4 parts water to one part LDD, and have about 30 gallons of
solution
in a big plastic barrel (vat). To this, I add a half gallon of isopropyl
(rubbing)
alcohol. The alcohol mostly keeps things from growing in the LDD vat.
Some other
fellows think it may help the penetration, but I haven't run definitive
tests yet
to really find out.

that's really good to know, as so far I've stuck to the 50/50 mixture... 3
or 4
parts to one would make it easier to deal with...

The rough turned wood goes in the LDD vat for a few days to a week or so,
depending
upon how much I'm turning. If I'm turning a lot, then I push the oldest
piece out
in about three or four days. If I'm turning less, I'll let them soak for
a week
(or until I remember they are in the vat).

After removal from the LDD vat, I put them on a rack and let them dry.
Mostly
"upside down" so they drain. After a few days, I'll flip them upright and
leave
them that way until Dry... This means anywhere from a few weeks to months,
depending upon how thick the rough turning was. If there is any
significant
moisture in the rough turned bowl, I wait before sanding.


Put them on a drying rack, flipping them occasionally, until dry to the
touch..
(Ron's method?)

Mounted on lathe and finish turned and sanded them..

Once they've dried, I sand. If I didn't do such a great job with the
roughing, I
tend to drag out the "50 grit gouge" (I can go down to 24 grit in an
emergency) to
finish shaping and such before proceeding with sanding. (I've taken a
5/8" thick
bowl down to 1/8" in little time, and don't have to worry about chatter or
blowing
it up with a catch in the "final shaping" phase. Sanding is done with the
bowl
mounted in a chuck and using power sanders (Sioux/Milwaukee angle drills
and PS or
Hook and Loop paper on appropriate pads.) All sanding is done dry. The
residual
LDD makes for easy sanding, the paper doesn't have any build up, but you
have to
wear a mask because you can get some really fine dust in the air (and it
does tend
to taste like soap, DAMHIKT). I typically sand to 600 grit, alternating
the spin
direction of the lathe with each grit change along the way. On that
really special
object I might go to 1200/1500, but it's a rare day I do something like
that.

I'd love the luxury of reversing the lathe, but don't have that option...
I end
up hand sanding some stuff because the grain and bowl rotation don't match
well.. *sigh*

Wet sanded 1st one with mineral oil... didn't seem to pick up the luster
that
this process usually does..

Once sanded, the bowl is cut off of the chuck, the bottom finish sanded,
then it
goes into the "soup" which is a modified vat of danish oil until the bowl
saturates. (about 20 gallons of it) At first, the bowl floats, and needs
to be
held down, but after awhile, it no longer floats. The process can vary
from a
week to two or more, depending upon thickness before the object saturates.
Here's
where you can really tell if it had any residual moisture, because you can
see the
difference. After saturation, a dip and dry, buff and repeat process
builds up a
surface film that helps protect the resultant object. A coat of wax and
the bowl
is off to a gallery.


Stained and waxed the other 2, they seemed to be very nice, but all
three still
felt slightly heavier than they would/wood have if dried "naturally...
maybe
because it was soft wood???

If it's heavier, it's still probably wet, and no matter what finish you
put on it,
it will eventually look bad... (once the water eventually gets out it will
make the
finish dull, at the very least).

ok... that's a big question... should the bowl dry longer than I've been
doing?
I think that I've misunderstood the process, as your method, drying them
for
weeks.... makes sense as long as they don't crack..

I was thinking that once they came out of the LDD, they had to be finish
turned
and sealed ASAP..

Rick has some interesting techniques, some of which are contrary to my
experience; however, the old adage applies. Whatever works, works! One
note about leaving the stuff to dry: I found it too risky and that coupled
with my natural impatience to finish a project, wanted to get it done and
not have a bunch of things sitting around drying. After all, that is what
lead to my search and finding out about LDD from Ron Kent. Rick's drying
method may well fit in more with a professional/production turner. I tend
to work at one thing at a time.

The ratio of LDD, seems problematic. If Rick's ratio works for him, great.
The thing that I hang my hat on is that I have the same LDD in a "vat" that
I started with, and with the addition of a quart or two of LDD once a year,
really doesn't cost any more except for the initial investment ($15.00???).
Perhaps more has to be added when you are processing more wood, as the water
from the wood will thin the solution. I kept a check on it with a
hydrometer for about a year and found out that adding a quart or so of LDD
kept the Specific Gravity of the 50/50 solution at the recommended ratio.

In any event, I am gratified to hear about the experience of turners with
LDD. I don't know how many emails of guidance and copies of the "Treatise"
I have sent out due to computer problems, but I hadn't gotten many comments
back on the efficacy of the process for others. Thanks guys, for your
input! May the Spirit of LDD Protect you from cracks and warps! *G*

Leif

Arch:

Mostly, I start with a commercial Danish oil and add more BLO (Boiled
Linseed Oil), Polyurethane, and a fair bit of thinner to arrive at my
soaking solution. It DOES eventually gel, but with various adjustments
along the way, I can usually get a couple of years out of a batch before I
need to throw it out and start anew. (It's painful to do so, because it is
really difficult these days because everything is considered toxic waste.
Getting the remaining ten or fifteen gallons of soup dried so it can be
disposed of is a chore in itself.)

The "coarse grit gouge" is kind of a local joke here in Hawaii, and for me
is mostly a response to blowing up bowls during that "last cut". I really
got tired of ducking chunks of bowl when I got a bit of chatter (usually
reaching too deep into a vessel for the shank diameter of tool or a thinning
edge) or just "lost it" because I was turning a bit too fast for the
diameter and thickness I was working on. It was also a response to problems
with the tools I was using. Sometimes, I would get a little torn grain
(usually on the inside of a bowl) from improper tool technique, or pushing
on too long without sharpening. Cleaning this up sometimes is extremely
difficult, and if I left extra wood, I found it was quicker and easier to
just sand it away later, especially once I found the LDD worked to help make
sanding easier. Sometimes I just run out of time on a turning session, and
when I get back to the bowl, it's easier to just plunk it into the LDD
solution, and on to drying and grinding than it would be to risk breaking it
by trying to turn it thinner to begin with. Most days, I turn to a
considerably thinner wall than 1/2 or 5/8" because I have the time and the
wood is cooperating. If I'm short on time, or I seem to be pressing my
luck, I leave it thicker because I know I can just grind it out later, and
it really doesn't take all that long (especially compared to cutting a new
bowl from a raw log section).

However, the biggest reason I use LDD is to make sanding faster and keep the
paper from loading. I've really had minimal problems with shrink
checking/cracking with Norfolk pine over the past few years... There have
been a few other woods that I've worked that were definitely in the category
of needing help, but having other techniques in the old tool bag besides LDD
are helpful too.

A purist would say I'm hacking my way to the final shape, not finessing it
into being (only) with metal tools. A few would even say it's wrong to use
abrasives more coarse than 150 grit on anything turned, and that if it is
needed, you're not really a turner at all. Of course, they have their right
to their opinion, just as I have a right to grind out a bowl if I feel a
desire to. What I really think counts is what it looks like when it's done,
not necessarily how you get there. As a result, we all have different
methods, and like many other people, I'm always looking for a new method
that may make it possible to turn out work with less time without
compromising quality of the finished object.

Just hearing of others successes and failures gives me ideas to try in my
own work, and I hope that the process I use may give others ideas that they
might be able to consider. Everyone works differently, and what works for
you may not work for me, and so forth. I think forums like this allow us to
all share in a manner that can help each other, whether we know it or not...

Thanks
--Rick

Arch wrote:

Rick, how is the Danish oil modified and what are the added properties?
Whatever the other improvements, it likely doesn't gel. That could get
expensive.

Final shaping by sanding is a technique that's not often mentioned here.
At least it's new to me as is reducing wall thickness from 5/8in. to
1/8in. with a coarse grit 'gouge'. Is this something that you found
that you _could do_ or is it a technique that you actually use and
consider worthwhile to advocate for all of us?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...
======LDD is hydrophilic, has a higher molar weight and in the course of
drawing out the water through the membrane of cell walls, it thins the LDD
solution. I guess that could be called a chemical reaction?

Nope, can't even be called good biology. The cells are empty of cytoplasm
in the part of the tree you save - the wood. They also contain stomata
through which liquid was exchanged. That osmosis halo only counts with
semi-permeable membranes.

Therefore, the
more wood one soaks in LDD solution, the thinner the solution gets. Ergo,
the drop in specific gravity and the need to occasionally add more LDD to
the solution. Rick didn't make any mention of adding more LDD to his 4:1
ratio of solution over time and I would be interested to hear what he does
or doesn't do in this regard. If the solution is so thinned out as to
approach the same molar weight of water in the cells, no water will be
extracted and the solution will essentially be water.

If there were a physical replacement, what did the replacement would
have
to
be regularly replenished.

=====Don't understand the question. Perhaps you could rephrase it?

Strange, because this is the only part which, by analogy to PEG, stands a
chance of being defended. Essentially the argument is that something is
"left behind" in the cellular spaces, as is true with PEG. I believe you
and others suggest it may be the glycerol. Now, having played PEG back in
the days of Moulthrop, and, unlike others, doing some research on it,
prior, I can say that:

a) Soak times quoted for LDD are absolutely inadequate for replacement.
Actually, they vary widely, even among those reporting success. Suggestive?

b) Glycerol, a liquid at normal temperatures, cannot fill cellular spaces as
PEG 1000, a solid (ok, almost solid) does _after the wood is dried_ , with
emphasis for alcohol advocates on the drying. Can't dry anything by soaking
it. Sort of like fighting for peace.

c) The volume replacement schedule you quoted is so low that, unless you're
doing tiny turnings, you can't be replacing anything significant, with PEG
(also in a recommended 50/50 solution by weight) it was not uncommon to have
to add a half pound of the solid after soaking three smallish 8-10" bowls
for the recommended three months to get back to the proper SG. Lot of space
in those empty cells. There's also a dilution, but with the short soak
times and spin while thin, that's going to be fairly small.

Answer you questions?

Hey, if you keep the surface wetted while you're working it, it can't dry
out and crack. The thinner you cut and the harder you spin, the dryer the
piece is when you take it off the lathe, and the less it will change shape,
because, as noted before, all shrinkage, like politics, is local. By
denying a large constituency of adjacent cells to pull together ... well,
red state, blue state, one pulls right, the other left and everything gets
"filibustered" so nothing's done.

"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...
{SNIPPAGE}
======LDD is hydrophilic, has a higher molar weight and in the course of
drawing out the water through the membrane of cell walls, it thins the LDD
solution. I guess that could be called a chemical reaction? Therefore,
the
more wood one soaks in LDD solution, the thinner the solution gets. Ergo,
the drop in specific gravity and the need to occasionally add more LDD to
the solution. Rick didn't make any mention of adding more LDD to his 4:1
ratio of solution over time and I would be interested to hear what he does
or doesn't do in this regard. If the solution is so thinned out as to
approach the same molar weight of water in the cells, no water will be
extracted and the solution will essentially be water.

Leif,
I'm not taking any sides on the LDD debate, but if the LDD solution is
drawing water out of the wood so as to thin the solution, and requiring the
addition of more LDD, wouldn't you see the level of the solution rising in
your container? After a while of soaking bowls and drawing out water,
wouldn't the container start to overflow? I don't mean to attack your
explanation, just seeing if it holds water, so to speak.
Martin

Strange, because this is the only part which, by analogy to PEG, stands a
chance of being defended. Essentially the argument is that something is
"left behind" in the cellular spaces, as is true with PEG. I believe you
and others suggest it may be the glycerol.

The word you are looking for is 'bulking'. PEG works by bulking, not drying
the wood. People have speculated, but not emphatically stated, let alone
proven that LDD bulks. Others say it doesn't bulk. The jury is still out on
that.

a) Soak times quoted for LDD are absolutely inadequate for replacement.
Actually, they vary widely, even among those reporting success.
Suggestive?

I've been sceptical of the short soak times, too, but then people are
reporting successes. Until we know what's going on, we don't know if the
short soak times are short, or long for that matter.

b) Glycerol, a liquid at normal temperatures, cannot fill cellular spaces
as
PEG 1000, a solid (ok, almost solid) does _after the wood is dried_ , with
emphasis for alcohol advocates on the drying. Can't dry anything by
soaking
it. Sort of like fighting for peace.

What is the difference between glycerol and glycerine? btw: The FPL talks
about drying wood using various liquids including salt presoaks and hot oil
immersion.

Dan

I'm not taking any sides on the LDD debate, but if the LDD solution is
drawing water out of the wood so as to thin the solution, and requiring
the
addition of more LDD, wouldn't you see the level of the solution rising in
your container? After a while of soaking bowls and drawing out water,
wouldn't the container start to overflow? I don't mean to attack your
explanation, just seeing if it holds water, so to speak.
Martin

Martin, There is no 'debate.' This is a discussion, collaboration, and
investigation of LDD seasoning.


PS: fyi: When people say things like, "I'm not taking any sides on the LDD
debate, but..." That's the same as saying "I'm not taking any sides on the
LDD debate, but (I will)..."

Martin, to me this thread is a debate in the sense that it is a
discussion and not an experiment, with defenses by reasoning, of
differing theories of how LDD works and differing approaches of how to
induce or deduce their validity.... Say what, Arch? I dunno what I
said.

Rick, Many thanks for your thoughtful posts. I can understand their
frustration when people say that Leif's/Kent's or anyone's LDD method
doesn't work after not _really_ using the method.

I agree that we should feel free to explore any variations that seem to
work. Ex. I believe that NIP and LDD are a special case. Slathering
whole NIP log sections or rough turnings with any brand of LDD and
storing them out of the sun prevents rot & cracks, lubricates the wood,
and doesn't materially affect lacquer, oil, wax or varnish
finishes.These effects last for years...or probably I just believe they
do.

This is a ridiculous and scientifically indefensible personal anecdote
which seems to work for me. Go figure... or better yet, go set up a
scientific experiment...If you are convinced that ultimately science
isn't a social enterprise with acceptance of our teacher's and their
teacher's biases and mores. Of course, someone eventually breeches the
etiquette and we can start all over again.

Anyway, this is a good thread with much thoughtful input to think about.
Hope my thought_less OT hasn't ruined it.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:46:31 GMT, Rick Frazier wrote:

Arch:

Mostly, I start with a commercial Danish oil and add more BLO (Boiled
Linseed Oil), Polyurethane, and a fair bit of thinner to arrive at my
soaking solution. It DOES eventually gel, but with various adjustments
along the way, I can usually get a couple of years out of a batch before I
need to throw it out and start anew. (It's painful to do so, because it is
really difficult these days because everything is considered toxic waste.
Getting the remaining ten or fifteen gallons of soup dried so it can be
disposed of is a chore in itself.)

The "coarse grit gouge" is kind of a local joke here in Hawaii, and for me
is mostly a response to blowing up bowls during that "last cut". I really
got tired of ducking chunks of bowl when I got a bit of chatter (usually
reaching too deep into a vessel for the shank diameter of tool or a thinning
edge) or just "lost it" because I was turning a bit too fast for the
diameter and thickness I was working on. It was also a response to problems
with the tools I was using. Sometimes, I would get a little torn grain
(usually on the inside of a bowl) from improper tool technique, or pushing
on too long without sharpening. Cleaning this up sometimes is extremely
difficult, and if I left extra wood, I found it was quicker and easier to
just sand it away later, especially once I found the LDD worked to help make
sanding easier. Sometimes I just run out of time on a turning session, and
when I get back to the bowl, it's easier to just plunk it into the LDD
solution, and on to drying and grinding than it would be to risk breaking it
by trying to turn it thinner to begin with. Most days, I turn to a
considerably thinner wall than 1/2 or 5/8" because I have the time and the
wood is cooperating. If I'm short on time, or I seem to be pressing my
luck, I leave it thicker because I know I can just grind it out later, and
it really doesn't take all that long (especially compared to cutting a new
bowl from a raw log section).

However, the biggest reason I use LDD is to make sanding faster and keep the
paper from loading. I've really had minimal problems with shrink
checking/cracking with Norfolk pine over the past few years... There have
been a few other woods that I've worked that were definitely in the category
of needing help, but having other techniques in the old tool bag besides LDD
are helpful too.

A purist would say I'm hacking my way to the final shape, not finessing it
into being (only) with metal tools. A few would even say it's wrong to use
abrasives more coarse than 150 grit on anything turned, and that if it is
needed, you're not really a turner at all. Of course, they have their right
to their opinion, just as I have a right to grind out a bowl if I feel a
desire to. What I really think counts is what it looks like when it's done,
not necessarily how you get there. As a result, we all have different
methods, and like many other people, I'm always looking for a new method
that may make it possible to turn out work with less time without
compromising quality of the finished object.

Just hearing of others successes and failures gives me ideas to try in my
own work, and I hope that the process I use may give others ideas that they
might be able to consider. Everyone works differently, and what works for
you may not work for me, and so forth. I think forums like this allow us to
all share in a manner that can help each other, whether we know it or not...

Thanks
--Rick

sort of like whether or not you use biscuits on paint cherry, Rick...
whatever works for you and gives you the desired results is the "correct" way to
do it..

In Bill Grumbine's bowl turning video, he refers to his "80 grit gouge" a few
times... Personally, I find that stiff backed 120 grit w/d paper makes a great
skew and gives my that certain shape or curve that my toools/skill level won't
provide.. YMMV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:YyDne.6364$nG6.5414@attbi_s22...
The word you are looking for is 'bulking'. PEG works by bulking, not
drying
the wood. People have speculated, but not emphatically stated, let alone
proven that LDD bulks. Others say it doesn't bulk. The jury is still out
on
that.


Wasn't looking for a word, but the jury, in the form of the microscope, has
decided that issue.

a) Soak times quoted for LDD are absolutely inadequate for replacement.
Actually, they vary widely, even among those reporting success.
Suggestive?

I've been sceptical of the short soak times, too, but then people are
reporting successes. Until we know what's going on, we don't know if the
short soak times are short, or long for that matter.

You should be sceptical. If the same result is reported with different
times, like this, odds are that the variable has no affect at all.

b) Glycerol, a liquid at normal temperatures, cannot fill cellular
spaces
as
PEG 1000, a solid (ok, almost solid) does _after the wood is dried_ ,
with
emphasis for alcohol advocates on the drying. Can't dry anything by
soaking
it. Sort of like fighting for peace.

What is the difference between glycerol and glycerine? btw: The FPL
talks
about drying wood using various liquids including salt presoaks and hot
oil
immersion.



You'll excuse me for discounting your evaluations a touch for not knowing or
looking up the word glycerol.

While you're there, look up dehydration, and see if it's the same as
drying....

Has anyone experimented with boiling in a LDD and water solution? I did
try the alcohol bath on some small 5/8 inch thick madrone slabs, and
got mixed results, with soaking times of 3 hours to 3 days. But like
one guy I know says about Madrone, "that s*** starts to split when you
fire up the chainsaw!"
robo hippy

"robo hippy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Has anyone experimented with boiling in a LDD and water solution? I did
try the alcohol bath on some small 5/8 inch thick madrone slabs, and
got mixed results, with soaking times of 3 hours to 3 days. But like
one guy I know says about Madrone, "that s*** starts to split when you
fire up the chainsaw!"
robo hippy


Boiling permanently weakens the wood. That's why they don't heat kilns over
about 180. No difference to us as turners, though. There's a bit of
plasticizing, but the advocates of the method don't manipulate the wood
while its steaming. You can, of course. Did some microwave and shape stuff
back when. May do it again someday. You can get a combination
turning/bentwood object that appeals to some, but it's a bugger to sand the
funny shapes.

Oh yeah - WEAR GLOVES!

"robo hippy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Has anyone experimented with boiling in a LDD and water solution? I did
try the alcohol bath on some small 5/8 inch thick madrone slabs, and
got mixed results, with soaking times of 3 hours to 3 days. But like
one guy I know says about Madrone, "that s*** starts to split when you
fire up the chainsaw!"
robo hippy



What exactly do you mean by "mixed results" robo?

--

Regards,
M.J. (Mike) Orr
www.island.net/~morr

Well, some pieces seemed to dry straight with no cracks. Some warped
badly, and in opposite directions, even though they were taken is
sequence from the burl. Some had little warping, and few cracks. I had
a little bit of everything except consistency. I still have some big
chunks of the burl left, and will try the boiling (which is supposed to
be the only way to stabilize madrone), and LDD. Maybe it will be
different, maybe not. Madrone is weird. I like to turn it thin and wet,
and watch it move. I have one bowl that I just finished. It is natural
edge, 4 1/4 to 5 1/2 high, 5 3/4 wide, and 9 long. I think it is done
moving, but with Madrone, it is hard to tell.
robo hippy