I want to add an additional radiator to a loft converted to a bedroom.
I think the radiator fitted is just about adequate for the room, but:
a) SHMBO likes her bedrooms about 10 degrees hotter than I do
b) the radiator (which is on the only vertical wall in the room) is
behind where we have the bed-head, so it's hard for the air to get out,
and the bed tends to push up against it, boiling my head in the night.

Along one side of the room is a suitable surface for putting a long,
thin, radiator - it's about 4 metres long but only about 20cm wide.
I've got easy access to the heating pipes at either or both ends of it.

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

A prolonged google has only turned up some "designer" radiators, but at
400quid a metre, this is more than I really want to spend - by at least
one order of magnitude.

Currently my thoughts are running to a loop of chrome tube, on chrome
stand-offs, so I end up with about an 8 metre run, with feed at return
at the same end. But the joints are going to have to be compression and
will look a bit nasty with 6 inline couplers as well as the elbows at
the end.

How much heat is this likely to give out?
Will 22mm tube work better than 15mm (greater surface area)?
Can anyone think of anything better at a sensible price?
Or any improvements to the idea?
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

"Nick Atty" wrote in message
...
I want to add an additional radiator to a loft converted to a bedroom.
I think the radiator fitted is just about adequate for the room, but:
a) SHMBO likes her bedrooms about 10 degrees hotter than I do
b) the radiator (which is on the only vertical wall in the room) is
behind where we have the bed-head, so it's hard for the air to get out,
and the bed tends to push up against it, boiling my head in the night.

Along one side of the room is a suitable surface for putting a long,
thin, radiator - it's about 4 metres long but only about 20cm wide.
I've got easy access to the heating pipes at either or both ends of it.

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

A prolonged google has only turned up some "designer" radiators, but at
400quid a metre, this is more than I really want to spend - by at least
one order of magnitude.

Currently my thoughts are running to a loop of chrome tube, on chrome
stand-offs, so I end up with about an 8 metre run, with feed at return
at the same end. But the joints are going to have to be compression and
will look a bit nasty with 6 inline couplers as well as the elbows at
the end.

How much heat is this likely to give out?
Will 22mm tube work better than 15mm (greater surface area)?
Can anyone think of anything better at a sensible price?
Or any improvements to the idea?
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

How about a kick panel heater set into the wall, have a look on the Myson
site

Regards Jeff

In article , Nick Atty
writes

Currently my thoughts are running to a loop of chrome tube, on chrome
stand-offs, so I end up with about an 8 metre run, with feed at return
at the same end. But the joints are going to have to be compression and
will look a bit nasty with 6 inline couplers as well as the elbows at
the end.

How much heat is this likely to give out?
Will 22mm tube work better than 15mm (greater surface area)?
Can anyone think of anything better at a sensible price?
Or any improvements to the idea?

Here's a heat loss table:
http://www.piping-toolbox.com/copper...oss-15_51.html

You'd need to have 4x15mm pipes to get 500W from the sort of span you
are talking.

An alternative might be to make up some flat panels in metal to act as
heat spreaders with the pipes behind in close (conductive) thermal contact.
Then you might then be able to get about a kW.

As to the fittings I'd be inclined to strip back the chrome at the ends and
use solder fittings, then use a sleeve made of larger diameter chrome pipe
to cover the joint, split & reformed if necessary.
--
fred

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:35:08 +0000, Nick Atty
wrote:

I want to add an additional radiator to a loft converted to a bedroom.
I think the radiator fitted is just about adequate for the room, but:
a) SHMBO likes her bedrooms about 10 degrees hotter than I do

Are we talking about degrees Celsius or the deprecated Fahrenheit?

You've used metric everywhere else, so I assume Celsius, but 10 degC
seems like a lot.


b) the radiator (which is on the only vertical wall in the room) is
behind where we have the bed-head, so it's hard for the air to get out,
and the bed tends to push up against it, boiling my head in the night.

Along one side of the room is a suitable surface for putting a long,
thin, radiator - it's about 4 metres long but only about 20cm wide.
I've got easy access to the heating pipes at either or both ends of it.

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

A prolonged google has only turned up some "designer" radiators, but at
400quid a metre, this is more than I really want to spend - by at least
one order of magnitude.

Currently my thoughts are running to a loop of chrome tube, on chrome
stand-offs, so I end up with about an 8 metre run, with feed at return
at the same end. But the joints are going to have to be compression and
will look a bit nasty with 6 inline couplers as well as the elbows at
the end.

How much heat is this likely to give out?
Will 22mm tube work better than 15mm (greater surface area)?
Can anyone think of anything better at a sensible price?
Or any improvements to the idea?

Before you do anything, you will need to calculate the actual heat
loss. You can use the Barlo program to do this, or drop me a mail
and I'll send you the Myson one.

You need to take account of surfaces, insulation and air changes.
There can be huge differences resulting from these, and unless you do
the sums reasonably well, you run the risk of being hugely out.
Also, don't forget to take account of the intended temperature drop of
the radiator. For a conventional boiler this is 82 degrees in and 70
out. Less for a condensing boiler. Radiator data sheets work on
the basis of higher temperatures so for th 82/70 situation, you need
to derate using a factor of 0.9

Myson, Stelrad and Barlo make skirting radiators that would fit your
dimensions. There are conventional ones as low as 30cm.


If you make your own and only use tube with no fins, I think it is
highly unlikely that you will get enough surface area to release the
heat that you will need. 22mm is going to be better, but I suspect
when you do the sums, you will find that the results are still way out
- my guess would be by at least an order of magnitude.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Nick Atty wrote:
I want to add an additional radiator to a loft converted to a bedroom.
I think the radiator fitted is just about adequate for the room, but:
a) SHMBO likes her bedrooms about 10 degrees hotter than I do
b) the radiator (which is on the only vertical wall in the room) is
behind where we have the bed-head, so it's hard for the air to get out,
and the bed tends to push up against it, boiling my head in the night.

Along one side of the room is a suitable surface for putting a long,
thin, radiator - it's about 4 metres long but only about 20cm wide.
I've got easy access to the heating pipes at either or both ends of it.

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

A prolonged google has only turned up some "designer" radiators, but at
400quid a metre, this is more than I really want to spend - by at least
one order of magnitude.

Currently my thoughts are running to a loop of chrome tube, on chrome
stand-offs, so I end up with about an 8 metre run, with feed at return
at the same end. But the joints are going to have to be compression and
will look a bit nasty with 6 inline couplers as well as the elbows at
the end.

How much heat is this likely to give out?
Will 22mm tube work better than 15mm (greater surface area)?
Can anyone think of anything better at a sensible price?
Or any improvements to the idea?

If you look at the output of chromed towel radiators and guesstimate the
amount of chromed tube they comprise compared to what you're proposing I
think you'll just get a few 100 Watts - not enough. I assume by '20cm
wide' you mean high, and that it's where the sloping roof meets the
wall. Could you lose a little space and put a low conventional rad a
little way out from this point?

/
/
/
/ ||
200 | || 300mm high rad
mm | ||
------------


If you don't mind it looking a bit odd you could mount a taller rad on
the slope

/
/ //
/ //
/ //
/ //
200 | //
mm |//
------------

Or rip up the floor and install UFH!

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:35:08 +0000, Nick Atty
strung together this:

Currently my thoughts are running to a loop of chrome tube, on chrome
stand-offs, so I end up with about an 8 metre run, with feed at return
at the same end. But the joints are going to have to be compression and
will look a bit nasty with 6 inline couplers as well as the elbows at
the end.

Something along the lines of what I thought, but galv of up to 2"
diameter and painted. You may get away with using 28mm copper for ease
of availability as 2" galv would require someone to manufacture the
joints for you, a commercial heating engineer.

How much heat is this likely to give out?
Will 22mm tube work better than 15mm (greater surface area)?
Can anyone think of anything better at a sensible price?
Or any improvements to the idea?

Don't know how to do a size calculation for a length of pipe, however,
for 8 meters I would imagine 22mm would suffice but if SWMBO likes it
hot in the bedroom then 28mm could be a safe bet. (Although, you may
have m isunderstood her request and you may get better results with a
firemans uniform)?
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:16:58 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

a) SHMBO likes her bedrooms about 10 degrees hotter than I do

Are we talking about degrees Celsius or the deprecated Fahrenheit?

You've used metric everywhere else, so I assume Celsius, but 10 degC
seems like a lot.

More a figure of speech than anything. She certainly likes bedrooms at
warm living room temperatures.


Myson, Stelrad and Barlo make skirting radiators that would fit your
dimensions. There are conventional ones as low as 30cm.

I'll have another look for those.

If you make your own and only use tube with no fins, I think it is
highly unlikely that you will get enough surface area to release the
heat that you will need. 22mm is going to be better, but I suspect
when you do the sums, you will find that the results are still way out
- my guess would be by at least an order of magnitude.

Thanks - if your gut feeling is that much I suspect I don't need the
program!
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:19:23 +0000, John Stumbles
wrote:

If you look at the output of chromed towel radiators and guesstimate the
amount of chromed tube they comprise compared to what you're proposing I
think you'll just get a few 100 Watts - not enough. I assume by '20cm
wide' you mean high, and that it's where the sloping roof meets the
wall. Could you lose a little space and put a low conventional rad a
little way out from this point?

Yes - actually the surfase is along the purlin; sloping roof above this,
and storage cupboards below. Standing it out is an interesting idea -
I'll have to do some measurements. Thanks

--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:29:02 +0000, Lurch
wrote:

Something along the lines of what I thought, but galv of up to 2"
diameter and painted. You may get away with using 28mm copper for ease
of availability as 2" galv would require someone to manufacture the
joints for you, a commercial heating engineer.

That's another good idea I hadn't come up with. You can hire dies for
putting threads on large diameter pipes can't you?


--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

Nick Atty wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:19:23 +0000, John Stumbles
wrote:


If you look at the output of chromed towel radiators and guesstimate the
amount of chromed tube they comprise compared to what you're proposing I
think you'll just get a few 100 Watts - not enough. I assume by '20cm
wide' you mean high, and that it's where the sloping roof meets the
wall. Could you lose a little space and put a low conventional rad a
little way out from this point?


Yes - actually the surfase is along the purlin; sloping roof above this,
and storage cupboards below. Standing it out is an interesting idea -
I'll have to do some measurements. Thanks

Short (as in height) column rads (like the traditional cast-iron ones
you used to have in schools etc but current 'designer' manufacture)
aren't _too_ expensive - I think 1 metre by about 300mm high by 3 column
(about 150mm deep) was about £150 in B&Q when I looked recently.

Nick Atty wrote:

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

Imagine that in a nice bit of trunking and you basically have a skirting
radiator:

http://www.theradiatorcompany.co.uk/...d=Product_Page


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:41:38 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Nick Atty wrote:

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

Imagine that in a nice bit of trunking and you basically have a skirting
radiator:

http://www.theradiatorcompany.co.uk/...d=Product_Page

Many thanks for the link. After the previous posting I spent ages
googling on "skirting radiator" and could find nothing but houses fitte
with them for sale, and "find the cheapest radiators at...".
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:27:18 +0000, Nick Atty
strung together this:

Something along the lines of what I thought, but galv of up to 2"
diameter and painted. You may get away with using 28mm copper for ease
of availability as 2" galv would require someone to manufacture the
joints for you, a commercial heating engineer.

That's another good idea I hadn't come up with. You can hire dies for
putting threads on large diameter pipes can't you?

I would assume so, I live across the road from a commercial heating
engineer so have never needed to hire one! You can get hand operated
ratchet dies or huge electric ones, a hand one is reasonably easy to
use on 1 1/2" and smaller.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:38:03 +0000, John Stumbles
wrote:

Nick Atty wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:19:23 +0000, John Stumbles
wrote:


If you look at the output of chromed towel radiators and guesstimate the
amount of chromed tube they comprise compared to what you're proposing I
think you'll just get a few 100 Watts - not enough. I assume by '20cm
wide' you mean high, and that it's where the sloping roof meets the
wall. Could you lose a little space and put a low conventional rad a
little way out from this point?


Yes - actually the surfase is along the purlin; sloping roof above this,
and storage cupboards below. Standing it out is an interesting idea -
I'll have to do some measurements. Thanks

Short (as in height) column rads (like the traditional cast-iron ones
you used to have in schools etc but current 'designer' manufacture)
aren't _too_ expensive - I think 1 metre by about 300mm high by 3 column
(about 150mm deep) was about £150 in B&Q when I looked recently.

You can get floor brackets for these types of radiator as well.

Personally, I think I'd go for this approach and use a standard sized
radiator - at least you know what you're getting. It would be very
dispiriting to put a lot of work into a tube affair, only to find it
inadequate.

All of this in an attic room, pretty much does imply a sealed boiler
system, although I did one like this once (carefully) with an open
vented tank and under 1m of head.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:44:41 +0000, Nick Atty
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:41:38 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Nick Atty wrote:

From my canal boat experiences, I know about "finrad" - a copper tube
with thin metal squares attached to it, which is very efficient but
looks nasty, cuts you if you brush against it, and collects more dust
than a dyson.

Imagine that in a nice bit of trunking and you basically have a skirting
radiator:

http://www.theradiatorcompany.co.uk/...d=Product_Page

Many thanks for the link. After the previous posting I spent ages
googling on "skirting radiator" and could find nothing but houses fitte
with them for sale, and "find the cheapest radiators at...".

Do bear in mind that any of these enclosures reduce the heat output
compared with the native rating. For a conventional radiator in a
cabinet with air gaps and grille front, it can be as much as 30%.

All of this, plus the derating to 90% for water temperature, need to
be included when sizing. However, if you can have long runs, then it
should work.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:09:51 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

All of this in an attic room, pretty much does imply a sealed boiler
system, although I did one like this once (carefully) with an open
vented tank and under 1m of head.

Oddly no. This was the attic of the single story part of the house -
the header tank is in the loft of the two storey part.

It's a 1930s telephone exchange, that was initially converted into a
bungalow with some upstairs space; this included putting a single storey
extension on but with a proper roof. We reordered upstairs into a
more sensible set of rooms, and converted the "walk in loft" into
another bedroom.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:13:14 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

Do bear in mind that any of these enclosures reduce the heat output
compared with the native rating. For a conventional radiator in a
cabinet with air gaps and grille front, it can be as much as 30%.

All of this, plus the derating to 90% for water temperature, need to
be included when sizing. However, if you can have long runs, then it
should work.

Of course, all this is for an additional radiator. I'm not planning to
remove the exisitng one, rather I was thinking of setting its TRV to a
lower level than the new one. So when the system first come on both run
at first to get up to temperature, but overnight only the new one will
run to keep the room up to temperature (this is the room with the
thermostat for the upstairs zone in).

Many thanks to all for your thoughts. I see I can get 30cm high
radiators from stelrad at up to 3m long (the high output version of
which is 3Kw - a lot more than my pipework suggestion would even have
delivered). So seeing if I can mount one of those on slightly longer
brackets is my current thinking. Truely several heads are better than
one.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

Nick Atty wrote:

Of course, all this is for an additional radiator. I'm not planning
to
remove the exisitng one, rather I was thinking of setting its TRV to
a
lower level than the new one. So when the system first come on both
run
at first to get up to temperature, but overnight only the new one
will
run to keep the room up to temperature (this is the room with the
thermostat for the upstairs zone in).

Many thanks to all for your thoughts. I see I can get 30cm high
radiators from stelrad at up to 3m long (the high output version of
which is 3Kw - a lot more than my pipework suggestion would even have
delivered). So seeing if I can mount one of those on slightly
longer
brackets is my current thinking. Truely several heads are better
than
one.

I imagine a much neater result can be got by snaking microbore under
the floorboards as simple ufh. Fit service valve to keep the flow rate
down so temp doesnt get too high; would that work?

I was originally going to sugges that adding a small silent low rev fan
can substantially improve a rad's output, but it looks like you've got
it all worked out.


NT

On 13 Mar 2005 12:10:32 -0800, wrote:

I imagine a much neater result can be got by snaking microbore under
the floorboards as simple ufh. Fit service valve to keep the flow rate
down so temp doesnt get too high; would that work?

Well if we'd thought of it, we'd have had UFH put in. But we didn't.

And all the strengthening that went in to change this from being only a
ceiling to being also a floor would get in the way.

I was originally going to sugges that adding a small silent low rev fan
can substantially improve a rad's output, but it looks like you've got
it all worked out.

I dunno. That's a very nice idea indeed.

With a temperature operated switch on inlet to the rad, it would only
come on when needed.

I might try rigging something up as an experiment to try it. Even if I
used a small spare computer fan and it made a bit of noise, it would be
a good proof of concept.

If it worked, it would be cheaper and easier than my other plans.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

Nick Atty wrote:
On 13 Mar 2005 12:10:32 -0800, wrote:

I imagine a much neater result can be got by snaking microbore under
the floorboards as simple ufh. Fit service valve to keep the flow
rate
down so temp doesnt get too high; would that work?

Well if we'd thought of it, we'd have had UFH put in. But we
didn't.

And all the strengthening that went in to change this from being only
a
ceiling to being also a floor would get in the way.

I dont know what structure youev got there, but with the usual wood
joist adffair it would mean lifting all the boards and notching or
drilling the joists. Not half as easy as a fan.


I was originally going to sugges that adding a small silent low rev
fan
can substantially improve a rad's output, but it looks like you've
got
it all worked out.

I dunno. That's a very nice idea indeed.

With a temperature operated switch on inlet to the rad, it would only
come on when needed.

I might try rigging something up as an experiment to try it. Even
if I
used a small spare computer fan and it made a bit of noise, it would
be
a good proof of concept.

If it worked, it would be cheaper and easier than my other plans.


Miles easier, no need to put a 2nd rad in at all.

The key to making fans silent is to get them down to around 1000rpm.
You can do that with puter fans by wiring 2 in series on 12v, or else
feeding them all on 6v. Of course lower speed equals less air movement
per fan.

I'd try 4 puter fans per standard rad, along the base fanning upwards,
and work from there.

Power consumption is so small that a thermostat, although ideal, can
always wait till things get warmer.


NT

"Nick Atty" wrote in message
...
On 13 Mar 2005 12:10:32 -0800, wrote:

I imagine a much neater result can be got by snaking microbore under
the floorboards as simple ufh. Fit service valve to keep the flow rate
down so temp doesnt get too high; would that work?

Well if we'd thought of it, we'd have had UFH put in. But we didn't.

And all the strengthening that went in to change this from being only a
ceiling to being also a floor would get in the way.

I was originally going to sugges that adding a small silent low rev fan
can substantially improve a rad's output, but it looks like you've got
it all worked out.

I dunno. That's a very nice idea indeed.

With a temperature operated switch on inlet to the rad, it would only
come on when needed.

I might try rigging something up as an experiment to try it. Even if I
used a small spare computer fan and it made a bit of noise, it would be
a good proof of concept.

If it worked, it would be cheaper and easier than my other plans.


I've lurked while various comments have been made:
Have you considered installing skirting-board radiators?
These a- long, not very high (about 9 inches); only
protrude into a room by 2 inches; can be 'interrupted'
where doors into eve-storage doors are extant; can be fitted
with TRVs; etc. etc.
Lots of armchair sceptics will scoff - but, so what?

--

Brian