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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Asbestos roof lining material (not corraguted)
Hi Group,
Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. |
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Paul wrote:
Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... Useful links: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm Jim |
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#3
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim wrote:
Paul wrote: Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. Without knowing exactly what type it is it's difficult to comment. But the grey/white stuff is generally the least evil in solid form. It only takes 1 fibre to start a lung problem. Then again, your flower beds contain real live anthrax bugs. It's a question of probabilities and the probabilities of solid asbestos panels causing you grief are quite small. I've never been particularly worried about stable asbestos panels, plenty of them around. At work, the professional opinion from the specialists is: Painted (eg windowsills, fine, leave it alone, just don't drill it) Unpainted - (eg firebrake over doors, wall) not really a problem, but if building work is commencing, take it out prior just to be done with it as builders likely to break it anyway. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... It is possible to remove it yourself. Your local dump should be able to advise and many will take it double-bagged (they supply the bags). You need to make prior arrangement with them. Upto you - it's your lungs. If it were me, I'd be happy to remove solid stable panels, but I'd douse in diluted PVA all over first, then let dry and when taking down, douse in water and keep it wet. I'd consider bagging up a couple of inches of top soil around the work area too. Tim |
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Paul wrote:
Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. Evil is a very good word for it. What you have is probably AIB (Asb Insulation Board) which was used as you suggest as a fire retarder. If it was mine then i would pay someone to come in and remove it, while they were doing it i would take the family out for the day too! Mesathelioma is a terrible way to die and for the sake of a few £££ i would never run the risk. |
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim
wrote: If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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#7
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"Paul" wrote in message om... Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. We don't even know if it is asbestos. It sound unlikely to me to be as it the underside of a roof. How old is the house ? Im thinking it could be fibreboard rather than asbestos cement. |
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#8
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Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim wrote: If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself. That's not what I've been advised by the local council: "The classification of asbestos as special waste, under the Special Waste Regulations 1996, requires that a specialist asbestos contractor must be used in the disposal of the material. Regulations also stipulate that asbestos waste can only be transported by carriers licensed to transport special waste and disposal must take place at suitably licensed sites. It cannot be taken to Household Waste Recycling Centres." HTH, Jim |
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#9
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Space_Cowby wrote in message . uk... "Paul" wrote in message om... Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. We don't even know if it is asbestos. It sound unlikely to me to be as it the underside of a roof. Which is not an unusual place to find asbestos boards! How old is the house ? Im thinking it could be fibreboard rather than asbestos cement. It could be asbestos cement, asbestos insulating board, or a non asbestos board. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#10
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Peter Parry wrote in message ... On 22 Feb 2005 04:28:28 -0800, (Paul) wrote: I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! If it is asbestos cement sheet it will be quite hard, whitish grey in colour and usually have one plain side and one dimpled side. It is essentially the same stuff as the corrugated version. Perfect description. Paul, is that what you have got? If so you could damp it down and remove it and dispose of it as others have suggested. If what you have is a pale grey/brown board, thickness something like plasterboard, softer than asbestos cement, it might or might not be an asbestos insulating board containing amosite, or brown asbestos. How old is the building? You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibres I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority, if they offer this service, or otherwise by a private asbestos analyst. You would be able to see asbestos fibres in this type of board, but then again some boards were fibrous and didn't contain asbestos. If you can see shiny flecks of mica it is most probably 'supalux' and is unlikely to contain asbestos. You are not going to know for certain unless you have it tested. IF you could find someone who has seen enough of these boards, and IF they were willing to give an opinion, they would have a good chance of knowing without microscopy, but I think it unlikely you would find anyone these days. Why do you want to remove it at all? Because you fear it contains asbestos or because you are doing something else with the garage? If it is in good condition and painted, you could just leave it alone... Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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Jim wrote:
All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... Useful links: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm Jim Nonsense from start to finish. Get it straight from the researchers: www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ACM.pdf The brief summary: white asbestos is perfectly safe, nearly all asbestos is white. but if its blue or brown asbestos, theyre very different substances to white, and not at all safe. Blue and brown are easy to spot, theyre blue and brown respectively! NT |
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#12
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Holly, in France wrote:
Peter Parry wrote in message ... On 22 Feb 2005 04:28:28 -0800, (Paul) wrote: I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! If it is asbestos cement sheet it will be quite hard, whitish grey in colour and usually have one plain side and one dimpled side. It is essentially the same stuff as the corrugated version. Perfect description. Paul, is that what you have got? If so you could damp it down and remove it and dispose of it as others have suggested. If what you have is a pale grey/brown board, thickness something like plasterboard, softer than asbestos cement, it might or might not be an asbestos insulating board containing amosite, or brown asbestos. How old is the building? You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibres I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority, if they offer this service, or otherwise by a private asbestos analyst. You would be able to see asbestos fibres in this type of board, but then again some boards were fibrous and didn't contain asbestos. If you can see shiny flecks of mica it is most probably 'supalux' and is unlikely to contain asbestos. You are not going to know for certain unless you have it tested. IF you could find someone who has seen enough of these boards, and IF they were willing to give an opinion, they would have a good chance of knowing without microscopy, but I think it unlikely you would find anyone these days. Why do you want to remove it at all? Because you fear it contains asbestos or because you are doing something else with the garage? If it is in good condition and painted, you could just leave it alone... Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. |
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#13
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wrote:
Nonsense from start to finish. Ah, kicking off with a sweeping statement in true Usenet (yes, I know uk.* isn't usenet) style :-) Get it straight from the researchers: www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ACM.pdf The brief summary: white asbestos is perfectly safe, Suggest you read the link you posted more thoroughly: "All can be dangerous, but blue and brown asbestos are known to be more dangerous than white. " Which rather suggests it's far from "perfectly safe". However, if it's well contained there's no reason why it can be left in place "perfectly safely". Nothing in my original post contradicts that statement... nearly all asbestos is white. but if its blue or brown asbestos, theyre very different substances to white, and not at all safe. Blue and brown are easy to spot, theyre blue and brown respectively! The fibres may be, but the material they are contained in may not appear blue or brown. Jim |
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#14
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wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... That would depend on what it was. Useful links: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm Nonsense from start to finish. Less nonsense than what you wrote IMO. Get it straight from the researchers: www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ACM.pdf Note that I am not disputing what is on that site or what Asbestos Watchdog do. I am disputing your interpretation of it. The brief summary: white asbestos is perfectly safe, This is nonsense, it isn't. That site does not say that. Or if it does, I can't find where, perhaps if you disagree you could quote the relevant section? nearly all asbestos is white. This is also nonsense. Nearly all the asbestos that ordinary householders are likely to have in their houses is white, sure, because the most likely product that they will have is asbestos cement. but if its blue or brown asbestos, theyre very different substances to white, . Yes, they are different substances. Brown asbestos if very different to blue asbestos too. and not at all safe. They are as safe as anything else if they are bound in another substance and not disturbed. Blue and brown are easy to spot, They are sometimes easy to spot, if you know what you are looking for. They can also be present as fibres which are too small to see with the naked eye but in quantities which will produce high levels of fibres in the air if disturbed. theyre blue and brown respectively! Blue is blue certainly, but at a fibre size big enough to see with the naked eye the blue is not always visible. Amosite varies from very pale brown, almost white, to quite a dark brown and can also be too small to see with the naked eye. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#15
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Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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Holly, in France wrote:
Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? They take them by vacuum sealing around the sample area, and use a suction system... my workplace has just been sampled, more than 9000 samples taken like this. Do you think that someone who works in the asbestos industry would be breaking apart material that they do not know to 'see' if there is asbestos there? Have you ever heard of corporate liability? Would you ask an employee to identify it like this???? If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. These comments frighten me. I hope for the sake of you and those around you that havent tried out your theory too many times! -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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Holly, in France wrote:
wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1] Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-| (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason. Missing bit: "I only mention this because a previous neighbour, whose ceiling disintegrated after a water leak was told they had artex with asbestos in. Their insurers insisted in having it tested for asbestos, and sent along a company who, it turns out, were only licensed/experienced in doing air samples. Subsequent analysis by a company familiar with solid sample analysis showed that it was in fact just artex"... If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... That would depend on what it was. Absolutely :-) (See [1]). I think I'll go back to readonly mode now... Jim |
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#18
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Holly, in France wrote:
Jim wrote in message Holly, in France wrote: wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1] Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-| Hmm, I don't think 'if it is asbestos' would have made a difference. In this case, given the comment about the plasterboard, I just thought that the chances that it was white asbestos were not as high as they would otherwise/usually have been. Hope that makes sense. I'll play my "alternative interpretation" card again there then :-) Clearly I should have said "Chances are, if it is asbestos, the panels are white asbestos rather than blue or brown". However, that was based on an assumption that that sort of product is more likely to contain white than brown/blue though, and on that point I might be scuppered because I can't remember where I got that from now I come to think about it... :-| I think I'll go back to readonly mode now... That would be a shame. I wasn't meaning to nitpick or put you off! I just forget I lack sufficient eloquence for effective news posting :-) Jim |
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#19
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Cuprager wrote in message ... Holly, in France wrote: Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? They take them by vacuum sealing around the sample area, and use a suction system... Serious question this. How exactly do they get a sample by suction? I imagine they must use some other tool within their sealed area? my workplace has just been sampled, more than 9000 samples taken like this. Fair enough, if that is the case, times and methods have changed. Do you think that someone who works in the asbestos industry would be breaking apart material that they do not know to 'see' if there is asbestos there? That is exactly how it was done up until a few years ago. Analysts wore suits and masks of course, but an air test taken in an area where one small piece of amosite board were sampled would be very unlikely to find any significant levels of fibres in the air. I'm not suggesting people should go around doing it all the time, but taking one sample, once, carefully, is acceptable IMO. Have you ever heard of corporate liability? Of course, see my recent reply to Peter Parry in another thread. Would you ask an employee to identify it like this???? With a suit and mask, possibly, depending on current legislation and guidelines. If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. These comments frighten me. I am astounded by yours too. I now see exactly what PP means in some of his posts. I hope for the sake of you and those around you that havent tried out your theory too many times! Which bit of it exactly? Sampling I have always done by carefully breaking or cutting pieces off, with suit and mask etc, as did hundreds of people when that was the recognised way to do it. Same for the analysis, visual inspection in a 'fume' cupboard, followed by microscopic analysis. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#20
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Jim wrote in message Holly, in France wrote: wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1] Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-| Hmm, I don't think 'if it is asbestos' would have made a difference. In this case, given the comment about the plasterboard, I just thought that the chances that it was white asbestos were not as high as they would otherwise/usually have been. Hope that makes sense. (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason. Missing bit: "I only mention this because a previous neighbour, whose ceiling disintegrated after a water leak was told they had artex with asbestos in. Their insurers insisted in having it tested for asbestos, and sent along a company who, it turns out, were only licensed/experienced in doing air samples. Subsequent analysis by a company familiar with solid sample analysis showed that it was in fact just artex"... Yes, I see now why you said it. As I have just said in another reply, times have changed since I was in this business. I didn't know that there were companies licensed or experienced only in doing air samples. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... That would depend on what it was. Absolutely :-) (See [1]). Absolutely :-) I think I'll go back to readonly mode now... That would be a shame. I wasn't meaning to nitpick or put you off! -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#21
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Jim wrote:
wrote: Nonsense from start to finish. Ah, kicking off with a sweeping statement in true Usenet (yes, I know uk.* isn't usenet) style :-) Im not going to argue with you. I gave you the report link, job done. Suggest you read the link you posted more thoroughly: I read it all, theres no need for nonsense. Last says yours Ive got better things to do. NT |
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#22
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:28:36 +0000, Jim
wrote: Peter Parry wrote: No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself. That's not what I've been advised by the local council: That's probably because you asked the wrong question. If you asked about disposing of asbestos cement you would have got an answer similar to these:- http://www.tameside.gov.uk/ehealth/new/asbestos1.htm http://www.bradford.gov.uk/council/w...tos_advice.asp http://www.swindon.gov.uk/publicserv...tosremoval.htm "Disposal of Asbestos Waste If you are a householder, you intend to transport asbestos cement waste in your own vehicle you do not need to be a registered carrier provided that it is your own waste." -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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#23
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Jim wrote in message news: Holly, in France wrote: Jim wrote in message Holly, in France wrote: Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1] Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-| Hmm, I don't think 'if it is asbestos' would have made a difference. In this case, given the comment about the plasterboard, I just thought that the chances that it was white asbestos were not as high as they would otherwise/usually have been. Hope that makes sense. I'll play my "alternative interpretation" card again there then :-) Oh go on then :-) But I shall have to have another go at explaining what I meant. I *think* it is you misunderstanding me rather than vice versa, but I could be wrong! Any independent arbiters reading? :-) Clearly I should have said "Chances are, if it is asbestos, the panels are white asbestos rather than blue or brown". Yes, but even if you had, I would have replied as I did. Ordinarily you would be quite right in saying that the chances were that the panels were white asbestos rather than brown (very unlikely to be blue) White in a situation such as this would be more common. *Except* that the OP mentioned a likeness to plasterboard. Usually white asbestos is found in asbestos cement rather than in any type of board which could be likened to plasterboard. Usually any board which could be likened to plasterboard would be more likely to contain brown asbestos than white. Is that any clearer?! Shall we give up or would you like to have the last word? :-)) However, that was based on an assumption that that sort of product is more likely to contain white than brown/blue though, and on that point I might be scuppered because I can't remember where I got that from now I come to think about it... :-| You were absolutely right as long as it was a cement type product as described by Peter Parry. I think I'll go back to readonly mode now... That would be a shame. I wasn't meaning to nitpick or put you off! I just forget I lack sufficient eloquence for effective news posting :-) So do I, clearly :-) In fact it might not be you at all, it might just be me..... -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#24
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Paul wrote: Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. Having been on an asbestos awareness course I'd leave it well alone and call in a specialist to sample it. It could be mill board (~90% asbestos) or similar. Niel. |
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#25
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Holly, in France wrote:
Cuprager wrote in message ... Holly, in France wrote: Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? They take them by vacuum sealing around the sample area, and use a suction system... Serious question this. How exactly do they get a sample by suction? I imagine they must use some other tool within their sealed area? Exact details of equipment specs etc i dont know, im just passing on what the sampler told me... i am a nosy sort that likes to know what is going on! my workplace has just been sampled, more than 9000 samples taken like this. Fair enough, if that is the case, times and methods have changed. Do you think that someone who works in the asbestos industry would be breaking apart material that they do not know to 'see' if there is asbestos there? That is exactly how it was done up until a few years ago. Analysts wore suits and masks of course, but an air test taken in an area where one small piece of amosite board were sampled would be very unlikely to find any significant levels of fibres in the air. I'm not suggesting people should go around doing it all the time, but taking one sample, once, carefully, is acceptable IMO. To quote your earlier post... "You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibers I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority" You didnt mention anything to the op about suits and masks. Have you ever heard of corporate liability? Of course, see my recent reply to Peter Parry in another thread. Would you ask an employee to identify it like this???? With a suit and mask, possibly, depending on current legislation and guidelines. Why didnt you mention this to the op then? The consequences are a little more frightening than giving bum plumbing advice etc! If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. These comments frighten me. I am astounded by yours too. I now see exactly what PP means in some of his posts. You are astounded by what? Me urging the OP to treat asbestos with the respect that it deserves? I think that your comments are reckless and dangerous and put into practice they could harm peoples health. I hope for the sake of you and those around you that havent tried out your theory too many times! Which bit of it exactly? Sampling I have always done by carefully breaking or cutting pieces off, with suit and mask etc, Again you now mention suit and mask. as did hundreds of people when that was the recognised way to do it. Same for the analysis, visual inspection in a 'fume' cupboard, followed by microscopic analysis. Not picking on you but what if the op had broke apart the board going by your advice, had a good look to see if there were fibers there, maybe passed the bit of board to his wife who had the kids at her feet to have a look... not a nice thought, is it? -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:36:02 +0000, Cuprager wrote:
Not picking on you but what if the op had broke apart the board going by your advice, had a good look to see if there were fibers there, maybe passed the bit of board to his wife who had the kids at her feet to have a look... not a nice thought, is it? Why ever not? Assuming it was an asbestos containing board it is most likely Chrysotile cement - the risk from a single incident of breaking up a dozen sheets of this with an angle grinder in a sealed room and then holding a line dance in the debris is for all practical purposes as close to zero as makes no difference. Given the total disregard for asbestos in the past if occasional exposure was so hazardous we should all be long-dead. Even ironing boards contained asbestos. In the very unlikely event of it being Amosite or Crocidolite (almost impossible) the chances of harm from taking a small sample are still negligible. Even in the USA - where asbestos litigation is rife - the recommended way of a householder taking a sample of _any_ suspect material (serpentine or amphibole) to send off for analysis is:- *Only the person taking the sample should be in the room. That person should be wearing rubber gloves. *Shut down air conditioning, fans, or any other ventilation systems that would blow fibers around. *Before you begin, prepare the material by wetting it lightly. Wet fibers are much less likely to become airborne than dry ones. *Do not disturb the material any more than is required to take a small sample. *The sample should include the full depth of the dampened material, though should be quite small. *Store the sample in a clean sample container (35mm film canister, small glass, plastic vial, or whatever container comes in the kit). *After the sample is in the container - tightly seal it. *Use a damp paper towel to clean up any material on the outside of the container or spilled onto the floor. *Cover the hole created by removing the sample with a small piece of duct tape to prevent further spread of fibers. Note - No need for masks or disposable overalls if you don't make a living doing this procedure. However, asbestos products, particularly those containing the amphibole group forms, are without any doubt the greatest single cause of fatal _industrial_ injury. There is also no doubt that the risk from all forms is largely related to the amount and the period of exposure. Asbestos diseases follow a dose–response relationship curve. The more asbestos you inhale the greater your risk of contracting an asbestos–related disease. http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causdis/occ8000.pdf The risk of occasional exposure is not zero but it is very small. The vast majority of the approximately 3,000 asbestos related deaths in the uk each year are amongst people who worked in industries where they were exposed to large amounts of asbestos fibre for many years. http://www.coeh.man.ac.uk/teaching_l...s/asbestos.php is worth reading as well. Chrysotile Asbestos is a hazard - it has the potential to cause harm. However occasional exposure carries an extremely low risk. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:00:45 GMT, Badger
wrote: Having been on an asbestos awareness course I'd leave it well alone and call in a specialist to sample it. It could be mill board (~90% asbestos) or similar. I hope neither you nor your employer paid for this "awareness" course. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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#29
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snippings
Chrysotile Asbestos is a hazard - it has the potential to cause harm. However occasional exposure carries an extremely low risk. All points taken, but *I* would neither recommend breaking asb board apart to have a look for the fibers or do it myself... i dont see the point in putting yourself at that kind of risk. I certainly wouldnt advise anyone in a newsgroup who obviously knows very little about the asb subject to do it... Most local authorities will have a testing team that can do it for you professionally for a small cost. My local authority charges £25 to sample... not a lot of money considering the potential hazard. Feel free to have the last word now  ) |
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#30
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:25:25 +0000, Cuprager wrote:
All points taken, but *I* would neither recommend breaking asb board apart to have a look for the fibers or do it myself... i dont see the point in putting yourself at that kind of risk. What kind of risk? The risk associated with occasional exposure is so small it is almost impossible to define - crossing a road is far more dangerous. My local authority charges £25 to sample... not a lot of money considering the potential hazard. Hazard is the potential to cause harm. Risk is a measure of the likelihood of a specified harmful effect in specified circumstances. It is important to distinguish between hazard and risk. Asbestos is a classic example of how hazard alone does not make a risk. Although there is no safe level for exposure to asbestos the lowest level which people have been known to develop health problems from asbestos is 1f/ml over an exposure period of 20 years. The background level in towns of asbestos fibres is about 0.000003 to 0.0003 fibres per milliliter (f/ml) of air. In buildings the background level is about 0.000007 to 0.006 f/ml. One fibre _can_ kill - but it almost never does, we all breath several fibres each and every day. The Ontario Royal Commission on Asbestos assumed a building exposure level of 0.001 f/ml and calculated this gave a risk (over 10 years) of about 20:1,000,000, about 1/50th of the death risk of driving 10 miles a day to work. The UK DOE calculated a lifetime risk of about 1:100,000 or 1/100th of the risk to non smokers of passive exposure to others cigarette smoke. If you chose not to take the small risk of collecting a sample that is your choice - but in terms of risk to your family going for a 2 mile car drive is much more dangerous. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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Cuprager wrote in message ... Holly, in France wrote: Cuprager wrote in message ... Holly, in France wrote: Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? They take them by vacuum sealing around the sample area, and use a suction system... Serious question this. How exactly do they get a sample by suction? I imagine they must use some other tool within their sealed area? Exact details of equipment specs etc i dont know, im just passing on what the sampler told me... i am a nosy sort that likes to know what is going on! Well, if you have feel like being nosy again, please ask them. They really can't suck off bits of asbestos board! I guess that if they are using a tool they must be getting the tool out of the sealed system somehow, or using disposable tools, or taking them out for decontamination afterwards. my workplace has just been sampled, more than 9000 samples taken like this. Fair enough, if that is the case, times and methods have changed. Do you think that someone who works in the asbestos industry would be breaking apart material that they do not know to 'see' if there is asbestos there? That is exactly how it was done up until a few years ago. Analysts wore suits and masks of course, but an air test taken in an area where one small piece of amosite board were sampled would be very unlikely to find any significant levels of fibres in the air. I'm not suggesting people should go around doing it all the time, but taking one sample, once, carefully, is acceptable IMO. To quote your earlier post... "You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibers I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority" You didnt mention anything to the op about suits and masks. Yes, I am well aware of what I wrote. Analysts are sometimes sampling all day long, day in, day out. They don't know until they get to a site what they are going to find. It is their job. It's very different taking 9000 samples in a workplace to one person taking one sample, once, in one domestic garage. Have you ever heard of corporate liability? Of course, see my recent reply to Peter Parry in another thread. Would you ask an employee to identify it like this???? With a suit and mask, possibly, depending on current legislation and guidelines. Why didnt you mention this to the op then? Because we weren't talking about employees then, who as analysts would be doing it all the time, we were talking about a one off sample in a domestic garage. The consequences are a little more frightening than giving bum plumbing advice etc! If I felt there were any frightening consequences I wouldn't have suggested it. If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. These comments frighten me. I am astounded by yours too. I now see exactly what PP means in some of his posts. You are astounded by what? What I meant was that I am astounded by the panic that the word asbestos appears to induce in people, regardless of the type of asbestos and the material, quantity and situation in which it is present. Also somewhat surprised by the fact that despite possibly never having seen asbestos fibres you are advising people about their size and are frightened by my description of them. The ones that do the damage are very tiny indeed, the biggest visible clumps I have seen in any product are probably about 2mm diameter. Bigger clumps in samples, museums etc. Me urging the OP to treat asbestos with the respect that it deserves? I think that your comments are reckless and dangerous and put into practice they could harm peoples health. Fair enough, we must agree to differ then. I hope for the sake of you and those around you that havent tried out your theory too many times! Which bit of it exactly? Sampling I have always done by carefully breaking or cutting pieces off, with suit and mask etc, Again you now mention suit and mask. Because I have done it hundreds, I would imagine thousands, of times. If for example I were buying a house and had to do it once, now, in a garage, I would. If I were doing it day in day out I would not. as did hundreds of people when that was the recognised way to do it. Same for the analysis, visual inspection in a 'fume' cupboard, followed by microscopic analysis. Not picking on you but what if the op had broke apart the board going by your advice, had a good look to see if there were fibers there, maybe passed the bit of board to his wife who had the kids at her feet to have a look... not a nice thought, is it? I really can't see the logic in this. If I had thought there was any significant risk to the OP I wouldn't have suggested it in the first place. Why would his wife and children be at any more at risk than the OP? The fibres in the board are not going to jump out and attack anyone, they will stay where they are as long as they are not disturbed. I wouldn't give it to children to handle obviously! I'm not saying that asbestos is a safe substance, it's clearly not, it can be lethal. I spent most of my career sampling, analysing and advising on the removal of it. I'm saying that one has to assess the risk in each individual case, and that is what I did here. I agree entirely with your point in another post about asking the local authority to have a look, that is the best course of action. But.....if people are afraid to do that, as they sometimes seem to be, for fear of the cost implications (not of the sampling but of the consequences of the visit), insurance implications, house price devaluation, etc etc, that is their decision. If they wish to carefully take a sample and post it off for analysis if necessary, then depending on the situation and material in question, I think that is acceptable. I understand that you don't feel the same way. There are probably still people about who would happily rip off sprayed coating in the middle of the night if they could get away with it, and at the other end of the scale are the 'one fibre of any type of asbestos is lethal' people. Most peoples views will be somewhere in between, and I'm sure we all think that we have a reasonable and balanced view of the situation. Yours is different to mine, Peters is different again. Last word welcome etc :-) Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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snippy bits
Last word welcome etc :-) The world would be a very boring place if everyone agreed and harbored the same opinions! We dont agree and i am glad as its far more interesting )Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#33
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Cuprager wrote in message .... snippy bits Last word welcome etc :-) The world would be a very boring place if everyone agreed and harbored the same opinions! Damn and blast, I agree! We dont agree and i am glad as its far more interesting )and think of all the job losses and the loss to the economy if all the asbestos consultants went out of business......:-) -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#34
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Peter Parry wrote: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:00:45 GMT, Badger wrote: I hope neither you nor your employer paid for this "awareness" course. My employer did, with buildings of varying ages, and one 80's building (a medical training centre) in which ALL the air handling ducts are made from unsealed asbestos sheet, they see it as a worthwhile exercise. The presenter was the site asbestos officer, formerly the county surveyors asbestos specialist. The only surprising thing was at the current levels we all average one fibre in each breath we take. Living and working in a "hot-spot" area and having lost several family members due to asbestos I'd rather people didn't take the risk and perhaps more importantly expose others in the process. That bloke jet washing the moss off his garage roof, cement=safe, asbestos cement safe until it dries and the released fibres become airbourne.... So yes, very worthwhile. |
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#35
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Hello again group,
My what an active and opionated lot you all are! Thanks to all for the varied adviced and thoughts posted. I've seen there's been a few questions about the house age etc... so here's a bit more info. House was built in 1964 (so prime time for asbestos me thinks) and the garage was built at the same same - attached to the house with a flat roof with a patio on top (dont ask). The boards are on the inside of the roof and I think they're there for fire-proofing. At the moment they are painted so can't really say alot about them. I need to remove them as the garage is being ripped down and replaced with a two story extension. Someone mentioned about getting a test done by the local authority - is this costly? and if they find asbestos can they force you to have it removed at exhorbitant rates? Any more thoughts or advice always welcome ;-) TIA, Paul. |
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