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Asbestos roof lining material (not corraguted)
Hi Group,
Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. |
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#2
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Paul wrote:
Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... Useful links: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm Jim |
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#3
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim wrote:
Paul wrote: Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. Without knowing exactly what type it is it's difficult to comment. But the grey/white stuff is generally the least evil in solid form. It only takes 1 fibre to start a lung problem. Then again, your flower beds contain real live anthrax bugs. It's a question of probabilities and the probabilities of solid asbestos panels causing you grief are quite small. I've never been particularly worried about stable asbestos panels, plenty of them around. At work, the professional opinion from the specialists is: Painted (eg windowsills, fine, leave it alone, just don't drill it) Unpainted - (eg firebrake over doors, wall) not really a problem, but if building work is commencing, take it out prior just to be done with it as builders likely to break it anyway. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... It is possible to remove it yourself. Your local dump should be able to advise and many will take it double-bagged (they supply the bags). You need to make prior arrangement with them. Upto you - it's your lungs. If it were me, I'd be happy to remove solid stable panels, but I'd douse in diluted PVA all over first, then let dry and when taking down, douse in water and keep it wet. I'd consider bagging up a couple of inches of top soil around the work area too. Tim |
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim
wrote: If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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#5
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Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim wrote: If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself. That's not what I've been advised by the local council: "The classification of asbestos as special waste, under the Special Waste Regulations 1996, requires that a specialist asbestos contractor must be used in the disposal of the material. Regulations also stipulate that asbestos waste can only be transported by carriers licensed to transport special waste and disposal must take place at suitably licensed sites. It cannot be taken to Household Waste Recycling Centres." HTH, Jim |
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#6
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:28:36 +0000, Jim
wrote: Peter Parry wrote: No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself. That's not what I've been advised by the local council: That's probably because you asked the wrong question. If you asked about disposing of asbestos cement you would have got an answer similar to these:- http://www.tameside.gov.uk/ehealth/new/asbestos1.htm http://www.bradford.gov.uk/council/w...tos_advice.asp http://www.swindon.gov.uk/publicserv...tosremoval.htm "Disposal of Asbestos Waste If you are a householder, you intend to transport asbestos cement waste in your own vehicle you do not need to be a registered carrier provided that it is your own waste." -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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Jim wrote:
All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... Useful links: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm Jim Nonsense from start to finish. Get it straight from the researchers: www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ACM.pdf The brief summary: white asbestos is perfectly safe, nearly all asbestos is white. but if its blue or brown asbestos, theyre very different substances to white, and not at all safe. Blue and brown are easy to spot, theyre blue and brown respectively! NT |
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#9
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Jim wrote:
wrote: Nonsense from start to finish. Ah, kicking off with a sweeping statement in true Usenet (yes, I know uk.* isn't usenet) style :-) Im not going to argue with you. I gave you the report link, job done. Suggest you read the link you posted more thoroughly: I read it all, theres no need for nonsense. Last says yours Ive got better things to do. NT |
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#10
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wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... That would depend on what it was. Useful links: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm Nonsense from start to finish. Less nonsense than what you wrote IMO. Get it straight from the researchers: www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ACM.pdf Note that I am not disputing what is on that site or what Asbestos Watchdog do. I am disputing your interpretation of it. The brief summary: white asbestos is perfectly safe, This is nonsense, it isn't. That site does not say that. Or if it does, I can't find where, perhaps if you disagree you could quote the relevant section? nearly all asbestos is white. This is also nonsense. Nearly all the asbestos that ordinary householders are likely to have in their houses is white, sure, because the most likely product that they will have is asbestos cement. but if its blue or brown asbestos, theyre very different substances to white, . Yes, they are different substances. Brown asbestos if very different to blue asbestos too. and not at all safe. They are as safe as anything else if they are bound in another substance and not disturbed. Blue and brown are easy to spot, They are sometimes easy to spot, if you know what you are looking for. They can also be present as fibres which are too small to see with the naked eye but in quantities which will produce high levels of fibres in the air if disturbed. theyre blue and brown respectively! Blue is blue certainly, but at a fibre size big enough to see with the naked eye the blue is not always visible. Amosite varies from very pale brown, almost white, to quite a dark brown and can also be too small to see with the naked eye. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#11
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Holly, in France wrote:
wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1] Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-| (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason. Missing bit: "I only mention this because a previous neighbour, whose ceiling disintegrated after a water leak was told they had artex with asbestos in. Their insurers insisted in having it tested for asbestos, and sent along a company who, it turns out, were only licensed/experienced in doing air samples. Subsequent analysis by a company familiar with solid sample analysis showed that it was in fact just artex"... If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... That would depend on what it was. Absolutely :-) (See [1]). I think I'll go back to readonly mode now... Jim |
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#12
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Jim wrote in message Holly, in France wrote: wrote in message Jim wrote: All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be. Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1] Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-| Hmm, I don't think 'if it is asbestos' would have made a difference. In this case, given the comment about the plasterboard, I just thought that the chances that it was white asbestos were not as high as they would otherwise/usually have been. Hope that makes sense. (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination. This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason. Missing bit: "I only mention this because a previous neighbour, whose ceiling disintegrated after a water leak was told they had artex with asbestos in. Their insurers insisted in having it tested for asbestos, and sent along a company who, it turns out, were only licensed/experienced in doing air samples. Subsequent analysis by a company familiar with solid sample analysis showed that it was in fact just artex"... Yes, I see now why you said it. As I have just said in another reply, times have changed since I was in this business. I didn't know that there were companies licensed or experienced only in doing air samples. If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it... That would depend on what it was. Absolutely :-) (See [1]). Absolutely :-) I think I'll go back to readonly mode now... That would be a shame. I wasn't meaning to nitpick or put you off! -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#13
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Paul wrote:
Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. Evil is a very good word for it. What you have is probably AIB (Asb Insulation Board) which was used as you suggest as a fire retarder. If it was mine then i would pay someone to come in and remove it, while they were doing it i would take the family out for the day too! Mesathelioma is a terrible way to die and for the sake of a few £££ i would never run the risk. |
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#14
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On 22 Feb 2005 04:28:28 -0800,
(Paul) wrote: I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! If it is asbestos cement sheet it will be quite hard, whitish grey in colour and usually have one plain side and one dimpled side. It is essentially the same stuff as the corrugated version. How evil is this asbestos? Not particularly. The panic about asbestos is largely due to there being no minimum exposure level below which it is safe and the old nonsense about "one fibre causes cancer" is regularly trotted out. This scaremongering rather ignores the fact that most people in this country breath several strands a day and the vast majority of asbestos related illness is found in people who worked with it or in contact with it for many years with high exposures. The primary significance of the "no safe dose" is that cases of asbestos related illness are indefensible in court so can be very costly. White asbestos (Chrysotile) makes up about 10% of your board, the rest is cement. If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Yes - your local council will have at least one amenity tip licensed to take asbestos cement board. Some make a charge (which is why it often finds its way onto roadside verges where councils are happy to let it sit for weeks). -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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#15
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Peter Parry wrote in message ... On 22 Feb 2005 04:28:28 -0800, (Paul) wrote: I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! If it is asbestos cement sheet it will be quite hard, whitish grey in colour and usually have one plain side and one dimpled side. It is essentially the same stuff as the corrugated version. Perfect description. Paul, is that what you have got? If so you could damp it down and remove it and dispose of it as others have suggested. If what you have is a pale grey/brown board, thickness something like plasterboard, softer than asbestos cement, it might or might not be an asbestos insulating board containing amosite, or brown asbestos. How old is the building? You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibres I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority, if they offer this service, or otherwise by a private asbestos analyst. You would be able to see asbestos fibres in this type of board, but then again some boards were fibrous and didn't contain asbestos. If you can see shiny flecks of mica it is most probably 'supalux' and is unlikely to contain asbestos. You are not going to know for certain unless you have it tested. IF you could find someone who has seen enough of these boards, and IF they were willing to give an opinion, they would have a good chance of knowing without microscopy, but I think it unlikely you would find anyone these days. Why do you want to remove it at all? Because you fear it contains asbestos or because you are doing something else with the garage? If it is in good condition and painted, you could just leave it alone... Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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#16
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Holly, in France wrote:
Peter Parry wrote in message ... On 22 Feb 2005 04:28:28 -0800, (Paul) wrote: I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! If it is asbestos cement sheet it will be quite hard, whitish grey in colour and usually have one plain side and one dimpled side. It is essentially the same stuff as the corrugated version. Perfect description. Paul, is that what you have got? If so you could damp it down and remove it and dispose of it as others have suggested. If what you have is a pale grey/brown board, thickness something like plasterboard, softer than asbestos cement, it might or might not be an asbestos insulating board containing amosite, or brown asbestos. How old is the building? You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibres I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority, if they offer this service, or otherwise by a private asbestos analyst. You would be able to see asbestos fibres in this type of board, but then again some boards were fibrous and didn't contain asbestos. If you can see shiny flecks of mica it is most probably 'supalux' and is unlikely to contain asbestos. You are not going to know for certain unless you have it tested. IF you could find someone who has seen enough of these boards, and IF they were willing to give an opinion, they would have a good chance of knowing without microscopy, but I think it unlikely you would find anyone these days. Why do you want to remove it at all? Because you fear it contains asbestos or because you are doing something else with the garage? If it is in good condition and painted, you could just leave it alone... Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. |
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Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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Holly, in France wrote:
Cuprager wrote in message DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. How do you think analysts take samples? They take them by vacuum sealing around the sample area, and use a suction system... my workplace has just been sampled, more than 9000 samples taken like this. Do you think that someone who works in the asbestos industry would be breaking apart material that they do not know to 'see' if there is asbestos there? Have you ever heard of corporate liability? Would you ask an employee to identify it like this???? If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope. the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair. Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together. These comments frighten me. I hope for the sake of you and those around you that havent tried out your theory too many times! -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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"Paul" wrote in message om... Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. We don't even know if it is asbestos. It sound unlikely to me to be as it the underside of a roof. How old is the house ? Im thinking it could be fibreboard rather than asbestos cement. |
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Space_Cowby wrote in message . uk... "Paul" wrote in message om... Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. We don't even know if it is asbestos. It sound unlikely to me to be as it the underside of a roof. Which is not an unusual place to find asbestos boards! How old is the house ? Im thinking it could be fibreboard rather than asbestos cement. It could be asbestos cement, asbestos insulating board, or a non asbestos board. -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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Paul wrote: Hi Group, Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not! How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc.... Thanks for any info. Paul. Having been on an asbestos awareness course I'd leave it well alone and call in a specialist to sample it. It could be mill board (~90% asbestos) or similar. Niel. |
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:00:45 GMT, Badger
wrote: Having been on an asbestos awareness course I'd leave it well alone and call in a specialist to sample it. It could be mill board (~90% asbestos) or similar. I hope neither you nor your employer paid for this "awareness" course. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
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#23
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#24
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Peter Parry wrote: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:00:45 GMT, Badger wrote: I hope neither you nor your employer paid for this "awareness" course. My employer did, with buildings of varying ages, and one 80's building (a medical training centre) in which ALL the air handling ducts are made from unsealed asbestos sheet, they see it as a worthwhile exercise. The presenter was the site asbestos officer, formerly the county surveyors asbestos specialist. The only surprising thing was at the current levels we all average one fibre in each breath we take. Living and working in a "hot-spot" area and having lost several family members due to asbestos I'd rather people didn't take the risk and perhaps more importantly expose others in the process. That bloke jet washing the moss off his garage roof, cement=safe, asbestos cement safe until it dries and the released fibres become airbourne.... So yes, very worthwhile. |
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#25
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Hello again group,
My what an active and opionated lot you all are! Thanks to all for the varied adviced and thoughts posted. I've seen there's been a few questions about the house age etc... so here's a bit more info. House was built in 1964 (so prime time for asbestos me thinks) and the garage was built at the same same - attached to the house with a flat roof with a patio on top (dont ask). The boards are on the inside of the roof and I think they're there for fire-proofing. At the moment they are painted so can't really say alot about them. I need to remove them as the garage is being ripped down and replaced with a two story extension. Someone mentioned about getting a test done by the local authority - is this costly? and if they find asbestos can they force you to have it removed at exhorbitant rates? Any more thoughts or advice always welcome ;-) TIA, Paul. |
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