"BigWallop" wrote in message news:M_orc.1178


Any compensation would help to pay for the pretty box at least. :-))

I'm not having one. A plank (reclaimed boards) and a winding sheet will
be
enough.

We're interested in archaeology, especially graves and their contents.
Recently I asked Spouse what he'd like to be buried in, he has a choice
of
clothing from Roman to VII Edwardian. He said that, since he spent so
much
time in it, his boiler suit would be the most suitable.

Mary


That's a man efter mee ane hert. :-))

The better half was going to leave her body to medical science but I told
her she's going
in a black plastic bag in the back garden. She always likes the view from
there anyway.

Ooh ! I'm being horrid.

No you're not. My body was left for research but I doubt that they'll want
it - it's been too messed about with. I'd be hapy in the garden. But save
the plastic bag for something useful.

Mary


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wrote in message ...
BigWallop wrote:

wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
[snip]

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light
switches for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified
person to do
the job?

Gas fittings haven't disappeared so why should light fitting?


Chris Green

But there is nothing in place that says you can't carry out any DIY for
yourself. That's
why it is called Do It Yourself. The point of being able to carry out
work for others,
and profit from that work, is the coverage of the legislations. You can
still quite
happily blow yourself and your property to kingdom come with a faulty
gas or electrical
installation, just as long as you don't interfere with the property and
well being of
others around you. It's this point that gets you into trouble.

What are you rambling on about? It has absolutely nothing to do with
the question of whether electrical accessories will disappear from B&Q
as far as I can see and even less to do with my response.

.... and I *WISH* you'd limit your postings to less than 80 columns,
they are a right mess when wrapped to fit (and, yes, there is an RFC
which recommends 80 columns or less, it's not just my whim).

You don't have to open his posts ...

Or mine.

Mary

--
Chris Green

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...




I personally think it comes down to the point that two heads are
better
than one, and if
you can have someone with a good knowledge of the trade to give it a
check
over after the
works done, and they don't see or detect any problems with it after
they
carry out their
tests. Then it is a good thing to have done.

It is indeed a counsel of perfection.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans ...

then we should ALL be tinkers ...

And names that cannae hurt eis ?


Mary



Sorry ! That's the sticks and stones one, isn't it ?

Aye.

Mary


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"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message news:M_orc.1178


Any compensation would help to pay for the pretty box at least. :-))

I'm not having one. A plank (reclaimed boards) and a winding sheet will
be
enough.

We're interested in archaeology, especially graves and their contents.
Recently I asked Spouse what he'd like to be buried in, he has a choice
of
clothing from Roman to VII Edwardian. He said that, since he spent so
much
time in it, his boiler suit would be the most suitable.

Mary


That's a man efter mee ane hert. :-))

The better half was going to leave her body to medical science but I told
her she's going
in a black plastic bag in the back garden. She always likes the view from
there anyway.

Ooh ! I'm being horrid.

No you're not. My body was left for research but I doubt that they'll want
it - it's been too messed about with. I'd be hapy in the garden. But save
the plastic bag for something useful.

Mary


I thought the plastic bag would preserve her for future archi tech nogolists.


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"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

Maybee It's just me getting depressed about how hard it seems to be to
do things legally without employing some semi-competent "insert trade
here" who has absolutely no interest in doing the job I want done (or
even returning a phone call usually). At the same time as not wanting
my custom most tradespeople seem to think it is their god given right
to be offered it at any price they choose and DIYers are taking the
bread from their childrens mouths. I'm mostly thinking of plumbers
here admitedly, but god forbid that regulations extend their powers to
other trades.

I can see the benefit of getting major work checked by a certified
person once it's complete but only if there was a fixed (reasonable)
charging scale and a guarantee that there will be someone willing to
do it.

I couldn't even find a plumber who'd run a gas pipe to a new boiler
and do the certification, I'd even have let someone hang it on the
wall. The greedy *******s knew there was a bit of simple plumbing
required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.

Fit it and get a landlord's certificate. Covered.

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message news:M_orc.1178


Any compensation would help to pay for the pretty box at least.
:-))

I'm not having one. A plank (reclaimed boards) and a winding sheet
will
be
enough.

We're interested in archaeology, especially graves and their
contents.
Recently I asked Spouse what he'd like to be buried in, he has a
choice
of
clothing from Roman to VII Edwardian. He said that, since he spent
so
much
time in it, his boiler suit would be the most suitable.

Mary


That's a man efter mee ane hert. :-))

The better half was going to leave her body to medical science but I
told
her she's going
in a black plastic bag in the back garden. She always likes the view
from
there anyway.

Ooh ! I'm being horrid.

No you're not. My body was left for research but I doubt that they'll
want
it - it's been too messed about with. I'd be hapy in the garden. But
save
the plastic bag for something useful.

Mary


I thought the plastic bag would preserve her for future archi tech
nogolists.

No, she'd be better left unwrapped. then you can save money on the bag - and
use it for something useful. I'm sure you'll appreciate the saving ...

Mary

On Fri, 21 May 2004 12:57:35 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:



This is why we need regulation of the trades.

The real reason why there is increasing regulation of the trades is a
back door attempt to put elements of it that have continued to
operate in the black economy into a regulatory structure in order to
reach them for tax purposes.

In the case of the Part P amendments to the Building Regulations, try
hard as the government might, they were unable to demonstrate any
safety or accident based reason for so doing.


If a certain job takes a certain amount of
time and money, then the trades would have to knuckle down to a set amount of pay for that
type of work. Many trades are held back by local situations. Rents and rates on
workshops vary widely across the country, vehicle up keep and other transport situations
also vary as you move from region to region. So you have to allow for a certain overhead
structure on the pricing of things as well.

Accidents do occasionally happen. Yes, they do, that's why they are called accidents.
But downright ignorance to the possible dangers of your actions is not an accident.

The question then becomes one of whether an amount of training and an
exam constitute competence.

The reality is that it may help, but in the final analysis, people who
want to bodge jobs and do them incompetently and unsafely will
continue to do so, legislation or not.
Trained and certified individuals will still make mistakes on
occasions.

So the conclusion is really that this may all look good to those who
favour increased government intervention in our daily lives, to
lawyers who may benefit from litigation, to the taxman who will have
hooks into people who should have been paying their taxes and haven't
and to insurance companies who will be able to apply actuarial rules
more easily.

Will it be better for the consumer? I very much doubt it.




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..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 21 May 2004 13:25:50 +0100, "RichardS" noaccess@invalid
wrote:



We have turned into a society obsessed with fear of insurance companies, the
cult of the "professional", rules and regulations, and the fear of something
going wrong no matter how small the risk.


Amen.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 21 May 2004 13:28:19 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:






We're not turning into an obsessed society, we are, and always have been, an obsessed
society. The new legislations are taking into account the increase in the DIY trade
across the country. These new legislations are being put in place to prevent the increase
that this market will surely cause.

The legislation is being brought about by a government intent on
unnecessary regulation and interfence in people's lives and in a
desire to attempt to end the black economy in the building trade by
putting tradespeople into registered orgnaisations.


The legislations are being pressured by the insurance
companies, mainly because it is them that have to deal with the consequences of the
outcome of the shoddy workmanship. It is the insurance companies that are assuring that
they have a comeback to some other entity for an installation not being to certain quality
standards.

That's why it is beginning with the services that could potentially be fatal if
incorrectly configured, for the want of better description. The dangers of gas and
electrical equipment are all to plain to see. Any leakage from any of them is
potentially, if not consequentially, fatal to the safety of persons and environments
around the leakage. All the equipment used on the installation is suitable for the job.
The person that is installing the equipment doesn't know that the equipment must be at a
certain temperature, or tightened to certain torque in the case of your vehicle, and a
leakage is caused by this lack of knowledge. What's the outcome ?

I personally think it comes down to the point that two heads are better than one, and if
you can have someone with a good knowledge of the trade to give it a check over after the
works done, and they don't see or detect any problems with it after they carry out their
tests. Then it is a good thing to have done.

The legislations are there to protect before the statistics increase, and not put in place
after the stat's show they are needed.


This is a totally bogus argument and a slippery slope to a
totalitarian state.

As evidenced by the growth in DIY stores it is a growing market, but
it is not reasonable to correlate that to increased accident risk.

If you go to one of the third world type A&E departments of an NHS
hospital on a Saturday afternoon (assuming you have the whole
afternoon to waste), then you find a significant number of people who
have cut themselves or got bits of something in their eye from DIY
work.

What's the next move? Legislate against that as well? Some of
those injuries are stupidity, while others are genuine.

The correct thing to do is to provide proper education, not to
mollycoddle people and control what they can and can't do.








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..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 21 May 2004 16:19:58 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"BigWallop" wrote
| ... The legislations are being pressured by the insurance
| companies, mainly because it is them that have to deal with the
| consequences of the outcome of the shoddy workmanship. ...
| That's why it is beginning with the services that could potentially
| be fatal if incorrectly configured, for the want of better description.
| The dangers of gas and electrical equipment are all to plain to see.

But what are the comparative statistics for deaths and injuries from DIY gas
and electrical installation, and from deaths and injuries from tripping over
frayed carpets and falling down the stairs?

Should carpet-fitting be a restricted practice and all householders have to
have an annual inspection of their carpets and a slipperiness test carried
out on hard floors?

And why are shops still allowed to sell chip pans?

... and kettles. Why do supermarkets sell bleach?



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Owain" wrote in message
...

Should carpet-fitting be a restricted practice and all householders have
to
have an annual inspection of their carpets and a slipperiness test carried
out on hard floors?

This is something I intended posting a warning about.

We've been doing some resin casting for a son and to facilitate removal
Spouse sprayed the inside of the mould with silicone lubricant.

In the dining room, which has a varnished floor.

I almost measured my length on it when I slipped.

Hurrah! some might exclaim - but it's not funny if it happens to you or your
loved ones.

Don't spray silicone where there's a hard floor. You might damage someone
you like. Even yourself ...

End of lecture.

Mary

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 May 2004 16:19:58 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"BigWallop" wrote
| ... The legislations are being pressured by the insurance
| companies, mainly because it is them that have to deal with the
| consequences of the outcome of the shoddy workmanship. ...
| That's why it is beginning with the services that could potentially
| be fatal if incorrectly configured, for the want of better description.
| The dangers of gas and electrical equipment are all to plain to see.

But what are the comparative statistics for deaths and injuries from DIY
gas
and electrical installation, and from deaths and injuries from tripping
over
frayed carpets and falling down the stairs?

Should carpet-fitting be a restricted practice and all householders have
to
have an annual inspection of their carpets and a slipperiness test
carried
out on hard floors?

And why are shops still allowed to sell chip pans?

.. and kettles. Why do supermarkets sell bleach?

Why are we allowed to be born? It's a certain death sentence.

Mary



.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Owain" wrote in message
...

Should carpet-fitting be a restricted practice and all householders have
to
have an annual inspection of their carpets and a slipperiness test
carried
out on hard floors?

This is something I intended posting a warning about.

We've been doing some resin casting for a son and to facilitate removal
Spouse sprayed the inside of the mould with silicone lubricant.

In the dining room, which has a varnished floor.

I almost measured my length on it when I slipped.

Hurrah! some might exclaim - but it's not funny if it happens to you or
your
loved ones.

Don't spray silicone where there's a hard floor. You might damage someone
you like. Even yourself ...

End of lecture.


Yes, but have you been trained and certified in the application of silicone
sprays? you should be a member of Ye Olde Guild of Silicone Sprayers, you
know....

Dont worry, it'll be legislated against soon :-)

(jocularity aside, I'll remember that, thanks)

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Fri, 21 May 2004 10:33:53 GMT,
(Lurch) wrote:

On 21 May 2004 02:52:38 -0700, in uk.d-i-y
(Kevin Chambers) strung together this:

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

The problem is that as competent as someone thinks they are at diy,
they're not always. I come across diy bodges on a day to day basis and
the people that install them can't see what they've got wrong and why
it's downright dangerous. There's a difference between telling
everyone you know what you're doing and actually knowing what you're
doing. If you don't know something, how do you know?
I'm not saying everyone is like this, just some people are a bit over
confident.

Fine, but do you think for one moment that adding legislation around
this is going to deter the bodger?

I don't for one moment, and so what little statistical evidence that
there is for part P legislation is highly unlikely to be impacted by
this latest regulatory intrusion.




Maybee It's just me getting depressed about how hard it seems to be to
do things legally without employing some semi-competent "insert trade
here" who has absolutely no interest in doing the job I want done (or
even returning a phone call usually). At the same time as not wanting
my custom most tradespeople seem to think it is their god given right
to be offered it at any price they choose and DIYers are taking the
bread from their childrens mouths. I'm mostly thinking of plumbers
here admitedly, but god forbid that regulations extend their powers to
other trades.

It also works the other way, I don't really want to do work for people
who don't want to pay for whatever job it is they want doing and
assume that the first price I come up with must be a rip-off by
default. I don't have a problem doing small jobs, but the bigger
contracts are more worthwile as you're generally not been hassled
about knocking the price down a few quid.

I can see the benefit of getting major work checked by a certified
person once it's complete but only if there was a fixed (reasonable)
charging scale and a guarantee that there will be someone willing to
do it.

How do you fix a charging scale? Make all the small firms charge the
same as larger firms with more overheads so the smaller firm ends up
with more profit, or the other way round? You can't fix a price, even
if you did no-one would be happy. This country is obsessed with
moaning and whining about everything under the sun, or even the clouds
as it usually is!

Price fixing is illegal anyway.......




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 21 May 2004 18:11:18 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

The problem is that as competent as someone thinks they are at diy,
they're not always. I come across diy bodges on a day to day basis and
the people that install them can't see what they've got wrong and why
it's downright dangerous. There's a difference between telling
everyone you know what you're doing and actually knowing what you're
doing. If you don't know something, how do you know?
I'm not saying everyone is like this, just some people are a bit over
confident.

Fine, but do you think for one moment that adding legislation around
this is going to deter the bodger?

Er, no. I didn't say it would. I was merely pointing out the fact that
not everyone knows what they're doing, unfortunately a lot of the
people doing the ordering about and preaching don't either. I was
going for the general '2 sides to every coin' angle with my response.

I don't for one moment, and so what little statistical evidence that
there is for part P legislation is highly unlikely to be impacted by
this latest regulatory intrusion.

I wholeheartedly disagree with part P, for more reasons than I can fit
on this page. I do like a good rant but not on newsgroups, I get bored
of typing!

How do you fix a charging scale?

Price fixing is illegal anyway.......

And that, never thought of that one!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Fri, 21 May 2004 17:04:42 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

Fit it and get a landlord's certificate. Covered.

Well, that's not really the point.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Owain" wrote in message
...

Should carpet-fitting be a restricted practice and all householders
have
to
have an annual inspection of their carpets and a slipperiness test
carried
out on hard floors?

This is something I intended posting a warning about.

We've been doing some resin casting for a son and to facilitate removal
Spouse sprayed the inside of the mould with silicone lubricant.

In the dining room, which has a varnished floor.

I almost measured my length on it when I slipped.

Hurrah! some might exclaim - but it's not funny if it happens to you or
your
loved ones.

Don't spray silicone where there's a hard floor. You might damage
someone
you like. Even yourself ...

End of lecture.


Yes, but have you been trained and certified in the application of
silicone
sprays? you should be a member of Ye Olde Guild of Silicone Sprayers, you
know....

I'm a Liveryman of the The Worshipful Company of All Stuffe Slippery but
Spouse isn't and he did the deed ...

Dont worry, it'll be legislated against soon :-)

I do hope so. I sent a copy of my post to Mr Blair, just to give him
something to do.

(jocularity aside, I'll remember that, thanks)

If you don't it will all end in tears ...

Mary

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

Kevin Chambers wrote:
However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

I'd just get on with it if I were you and learn by your mistakes - if
your life is spared!.
I remember the first time I did some electrical wiring the back of a 4
gang switch (with 2 2way) looked as complicated as a valve radio by
the time I had finished it. When I came to switch on at the mains the
fuses went with a big bang and a burning smell. Took another 2 days to
work out why.
I'm much better at it now .

Remember the DIY battle cry; "you name it - we'll do it, and even if
we can't do it we'll still do it!"

Come to think - could make a good UK DIY T-shirt motto or DIY tattoo

cheers

Jacob

"jacob" wrote in message
om...

Come to think - could make a good UK DIY T-shirt motto or DIY tattoo

A DIY tattoo?

There are some DIY projects I draw the line at ...

Mary

cheers

Jacob

Remember the DIY battle cry; "you name it - we'll do it, and even if
we can't do it we'll still do it!"

Come to think - could make a good UK DIY T-shirt motto or DIY tattoo

With an attitude like that I think the word you are looking for is
epitaph.......

:-)

--
Martin Wiseman

BigWallop wrote in message ...

The trades are setting new standards all the time, and equipment suppliers
and
manufacturers are constantly changing designs and styles to comply with
these new
standards. But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the
trades are, so
problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge. Any
reputable
tradesperson will be constantly updating their techniques to allow for new
things
coming to the market and, in most cases, this is long before the DIYer is
even aware
of what is happening. So new found dangers and changes to the codes of
practice can
arise due to faults that were found with older techniques and newer methods
must then
be introduced to compensate for them.

The average DIYer still has the "That'll do it for me" way of thinking when
they carry
out an unfamiliar job. Fact. But, if the work they are carrying out can
be dangerous
to people and / or even the environment, then the work is deemed, and
rightly so, to
be unsuitable for safe use. This is where new certification schemes would
come into
play.

Scenario 1;

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own
home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in the
work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one
night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst into
flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?
But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.

Is it the previous owners fault ? But he had no regulations to prevent him
from doing
that type of work, so is he fully responsible ? He felt confident enough
in doing the
job to his own standard.

Scenario 2;

The installation is fully tested before the new occupier moves in. This is
all done
by people who know what to look for and how to test for all types of fault
that might
be dangerous to the new occupier. He finds the fault during his survey and
warns of
the impending danger. The new occupier has the defect repaired so that it
isn't a
danger any more. No BLAM !!! in the middle of the night. No lives lost
due faulty
installations.

Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to happen ?


This approach is largely crap! If you want to live in a risk free
environment then perhaps a goldfish bowl would be suitable.

The average plumber/electrician/builder is largely trained by
experience, what he/her got wrong, like the rest of us. The prospect of
being sued does not apply to the average cowboy builder, he has no assets,
and only people with assets get sued! The experiences of most of us are
that the chance of getting a GOOD job done by a supplier is at best a 1 in 4
possibility. Yes, the average plumber learns a bit more every year, but very
few ever go on a manufacturers training course, most operate by reading the
instructions, throwing them away and doing it like the last one. Electrical
wiring is a very interesting area. The IEE regulations are a GUIDE to good
practice and not mandatory. They can't be, as the paperwork required to
cover every eventuality would dwarf even the treasury's manual on taxation.
I have seen the test specification of a modern defence system equivalent in
complexity to a consumer PC, reach 600 pages of A4( largely unnecessary),
imagine the test specification for a flat in a block!

If people wish to live in the nanny state, then they are welcome to
do so, but IMO the effects are going to be a continuous degradation of
living standards over the next 20 or so years. All businesses fail when the
overhead costs exceed the capacity/willingness of the customer to pay for
them and further increases in regulation will simply lead to people ignoring
them even more than they do at present. We want much less regulation, and
greater willingness to accept risk if we want a viable future.

Regards
Capitol

Martin Wiseman wrote in message ...
With an attitude like that I think the word you are looking for is
epitaph.......


Come on, positive approach, Darwin.

Regards
Capitol

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message .net...
"jacob" wrote in message
om...

Come to think - could make a good UK DIY T-shirt motto or DIY tattoo

A DIY tattoo?

There are some DIY projects I draw the line at ...

Mary

Easy peasy - you just have to remember that it comes out in reverse if
you are doing it infront of a mirror - MUM is ok though

cheers

Jacob

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
Electrical
wiring is a very interesting area. The IEE regulations are a GUIDE to good
practice and not mandatory. They can't be, as the paperwork required to
cover every eventuality would dwarf even the treasury's manual on
taxation.
I have seen the test specification of a modern defence system equivalent
in
complexity to a consumer PC, reach 600 pages of A4( largely unnecessary),

Since the test spec for Windows exceeded 28000 pages back in 1997, (hate to
think how big it is now) either the defence system is almost untested or
somebody in Seattle isn't doing a good job with their testing.

G&M wrote in message ...


Since the test spec for Windows exceeded 28000 pages back in 1997, (hate to
think how big it is now) either the defence system is almost untested or
somebody in Seattle isn't doing a good job with their testing.


I think we all know that Windows is untestable, as it doesn't actually work,
hence more B/S is needed to cover up the fact.

Regards
Capitol

In message , Andy Hall
writes

Accidents do occasionally happen. Yes, they do, that's why they are
called accidents.
But downright ignorance to the possible dangers of your actions is not
an accident.

The question then becomes one of whether an amount of training and an
exam constitute competence.

I used to have a customer who had been on all the courses, passed exams,
had a car full of boiler manuals and course notes.

He was totally useless

--
geoff

On 21 May 2004 02:52:38 -0700, (Kevin
Chambers) wrote:

I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

Maybee It's just me getting depressed about how hard it seems to be to
do things legally without employing some semi-competent "insert trade
here" who has absolutely no interest in doing the job I want done (or
even returning a phone call usually). At the same time as not wanting
my custom most tradespeople seem to think it is their god given right
to be offered it at any price they choose and DIYers are taking the
bread from their childrens mouths. I'm mostly thinking of plumbers
here admitedly, but god forbid that regulations extend their powers to
other trades.

I can see the benefit of getting major work checked by a certified
person once it's complete but only if there was a fixed (reasonable)
charging scale and a guarantee that there will be someone willing to
do it.

I couldn't even find a plumber who'd run a gas pipe to a new boiler
and do the certification, I'd even have let someone hang it on the
wall. The greedy *******s knew there was a bit of simple plumbing
required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.

I absolutely know where you're coming from. My gas fitters charged £40
to disconnect the hob, then two days later another £80 to connect the
new cooker. Total time spent: 30 minutes. The cooker itself only cost
£250. I believe the situation with tradespeople in the UK has become
dire, yet there will come a point when I am just too old to do it
myself and will have to rely on the cowboys. I can only hope that
before then some government will be in power to apply proper
regulations to the entire industry. That stupid programme on BBC where
the guy is driving arund the country in a bus by a driver who never
speaks is a total waste of a half-hour programming slot. The programme
is just making a bit of flippant "edutainment" and not addressing the
problems we all face anything like seriously enough.

MM

"Capitol" wrote
| The IEE regulations are a GUIDE to good
| practice and not mandatory.

The IEE regulations are mandatory in Scotland - they are cited in the
Building Regulations.

They are also, de facto if not de jure, mandatory in workplaces under the
H&SAWA.

Owain

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message ...
"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to
advise on these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the
country, then the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you
do have a comeback on
someone if this does occur. If the installer wasn't part of any of
these organisations,
then they wouldn't be properly certificated and, hence, shouldn't
be installing that type
of equipment. So it goes back to being a DIY job.


You reckon that the trade body would accept any liablilty whatsoever
because
one of their past members had done a shoddy job? Or that they would
do
anything other than fight like hell to protect their member's
interest?



To be honest I think a reality check is needed here.

1. IME every bit as much professional work is incompetent and
muppet-like as DIY work.

2. The vast majority of DIYers are carry out work competently. Those
without the necessary level of competence rarely touch electrics or
gas, for reasons I could go into separately.

3. The few that are dangerous are not likely to follow any new rules
anway, since they make no attempt to follow or get informed about the
existing ones. Hence legislation against such work is ineffective.

4. The new drive for professionalism unreasonably penalises all
DIYers, while having no effect on the dangerous few.

5. The only visible 'benefit' is to the wallets of the trades
concerned, members of which routinely charge rip off prices for poorly
done jobs that most of us can do for close to nothing and to far
higher standards ourselves.

6. There is no serious justification for preventing those who are
competent from doing their own DIY work of any shade, whether it be
electrical, gas, structural, heating, whatever. Competence should be
all that matters. The new drive claims to discriminate on grouns of
competence, but in reality does not at all.

I suppose for completeness I should ask if you are in one of these
trades yourself?


Regards, NT

"BigWallop" wrote in message ...
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , BigWallop
wrote:
But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the trades are,
so problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge.

When it comes to central heating this does not seem to tally with the
experience of people here. While members of this group are discussing the
merits of various condensing boilers, control options, UFH etc, more than
a few in the queue at the merchants want only to fit what they were
fitting 10 or 15 years ago.

That being the case, is the internal workings of these controllers still the same as it
was 10 or 15 years ago. Would the DIYer fitting them notice that changes to the thickness
of the contacts inside the relays has had to be changed because the thinner ones don't
take the new load ratings from the newer boilers which sits further down the line from
them.

No they wouldn't. They'd only know that the controller looks the same and does the same
job as it always did. But, on the other hand, anyone with the knowledge to know that
after a certain date these controllers are not suitable for the newer boilers, because
they cause problems with the new contacts burning out, and they would / should
automatically change it because they know to look at the date of manufacture on the
controllers. That's a properly informed tradesperson.

1 Lots of tradespeople are neither properly informed nor competent.
2 This is a trivial matter, affecting MTBF, not safety.
3 The changes carried out by manufacturers will do the job.


Being competent, as has been mentioned before, is not the same as being certified to do
the work safely and securely. When I buy timber to make something, and I'm not joiner or
carpenter, I wouldn't know the first thing about the grain, the species, or the workings
of all the woods. I'd rely on someone telling me that, that particular wood is what I
should be using for that particular job. Who would be telling me this ? Someone with a
lot more experience in the job than I have. A fully qualified person in other words.

no no. One does not need paper qualifications or certification to gain
knowledge. As you pointed out above. Lots of good sound info is given
out here on uk.d-i-y by people with no paper qualification in the
subject theyre discussing. We're talking DIY here, not brain surgery.


I don't think there are many DIYers who could walk in to a trade merchant and ask for a
special device or fitting that needs to be fitted into a particular job, without having
done some research into the job they're doing.

whether one gains the knowledge by research before the job or by a
training course a few years prior is immaterial.


If the job then needs to be inspected by someone who is trained in the quality factor of
that type of work, then the DIYer would have no hesitation in allowing this to happen,
because they would know that they have learned as much as they can before, during and
after doing the work. So they should then be confident enough to allow the inspector to
have a look.

No, youre evading the point here. The point is that ripoff prices are
being charged for an officially certified muppet to inspect and pass
work that has been done by someone more competent than themselves,
time after time. I have watched enough such inspections to know that
probably half of them barely know what theyre doing. Its not been just
once that I've had to explain to them whats going on - even with some
very simple matters. In reality these inspectors are not all competent
themselves.


It's the work that is not inspected that is causing dangerous circumstances.
New legislations are not created from thin air. They're created due to the continually
changing environments in the way equipment is being installed. And it is the final
installation of this equipment which creates dangerous environments.

While most laws are sound, as you well know they are also created in
response to political agendas and questionable reports. The reality is
there is very little support for some of the latest drives towards
professsionalism, and with perfectly good reason.


Regards, NT

"BigWallop" wrote in message ...

Woman over the road literally had a ceiling fall on her head after a plumber
forgot to connect a fitting in the bathroom. He did buy her a bunch of
flowers though.

snip.....
This is why we need regulation of the trades. If a certain job takes a certain amount of
time and money, then the trades would have to knuckle down to a set amount of pay for that
type of work. Many trades are held back by local situations. Rents and rates on
workshops vary widely across the country, vehicle up keep and other transport situations
also vary as you move from region to region. So you have to allow for a certain overhead
structure on the pricing of things as well.


then the trades would have to knuckle down to a set amount of pay for that
type of work.

this is both impossible and undesirable, since each job varies from
the next in many details. Not just parts and work, but also things
like access and other issues. Building work is full of issues.

Setting charge per hour also does not work, since
a) the worker will then have an incentive to work as slow as possible
b) it takes no account of the quality of each individuals work
c) it is wrongly anti-competitive.


Regards, NT

geoff wrote in message ...

I used to have a customer who had been on all the courses, passed exams,
had a car full of boiler manuals and course notes.

He was totally useless


Sadly there are also a great number who, while not being useless, are
incompetent and unsafe. And I'm talking about people who have passed
exams.

The British public today has a very unrealistic view of exams and bits
of paper. The reality is that
a) of the official exams I took I'm sure I've forgotten the vast
majority of the material covered.
b) The pass percentage required on most exams is so low as to make
those who pass routinely not competent.
c) many idiots manage to pass exams: they might know the contents of
the course, but still be dangerous due to sheer stupidity - have seen
this many times.

If you want to see a monumental testament to the failure of exams to
produce safe practitioners, look at GPs. The standards are... not
good.


Regards, NT

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message ...

You've stated this before. Do you have any evidence to back this assertion
up? Is, on average, DIY work statistically better or worse than the broad
spectrum of work carried out by tradesmen (qualified or not?).

In the ODPM's "justification" for BRegs Part P ISTR that the number of fatal
electrocutions in the UK is tiny (in 10s rather than 100s or 1000s), and the
stats don't distinguish between fixed and portable appliances, nor
unqualified as opposed to qualified installations.

10 deaths per year in Britain from both appliances and fixed wiring.
One can only guess at the number of these that are from fixed wiring
alone: probably much less than 1 per year. Even if it were as many as
9 per year, this would be one of the safest activities known to our
society.

A huge amount of expense is being placed on us under complete
pretence. Many have said so, many with far bigger voices than me. If
the welfare of the people were being considered at all, this extra
expense would be spent on something where it is genuinely needed, not
on paperwork that will achieve literally nothing.


Where do we stop with this obsession with qualifications and certification?
Should DIY/unqualified car maintenance be banned on the grounds that you
might not spot a problem with the brakes if you happen to be changing the
oil filter?

I've done car brakes, electrical fitting, worked with 18M concentrated
acids, various toxins, made life and death decisions... lets compare.

Of the brakes I've had done professionally, some were downright
dangerous. None of my own work was. Professional mechanics are so
clueless most of them think that if one half fails in dual system
brakes, the other brakes will still work. They will not, not even a
bit.

Of the goods I've bought from professional sources, a few have been
irresponsible or dangerous on the toxin side, my work has not been.

And when it come to life and death decisions, some I've made have been
in dircet contradiction to highly qualified professionals after I have
checked out the facts thoroughly and documented why they have got it
wrong. In the majority of cases they have eventually accepted my case
and acted accordingly. Even in cases where I have no paper quals in
their field and they are highly respected. Had a case of this just
recently, and the person is now alive thankfully.

This is a scary idea to many, that someone without the bit of paper
could read up and get their facts straight, and someone with the bit
of paper could get things so wrong as to cause death to those in their
care. But its all documentable.


Yet it should all come down to paperwork? I think those who put this
paperwork on such a high pedestal are those who are unable to think
for themselves, and never dare question a professionals decision. If
they do so they will find just how imperfect people are.

Courses exams and paperwork _do_ matter, for sure, but I think most
today sorely misunderstand what they do and do not mean.


Caveat Emptor. It's stunning that we don't commission electrical surveys
and gas safety checks more frequently as part of the house buying process.

Theres another field riddles with crass incompetence, surveying.


Regards, NT

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

I personally think it comes down to the point that two heads are better
than one, and if
you can have someone with a good knowledge of the trade to give it a check
over after the
works done, and they don't see or detect any problems with it after they
carry out their
tests. Then it is a good thing to have done.

Its not, because it is expense and time that isnt saving any lives.
There are other uses for these resources that actually would save
lives.

Our electrical safety standards are the highest and tightest in the
world. Why has no other country followed our 'lead'? Are they all
ignorant fools, or have they perhaps had a peek at the statistics?


Regards, NT

On 22 May 2004 15:11:01 -0700, (N. Thornton) strung together
this:

To be honest I think a reality check is needed here.

Snip good points by NT

Quite true. It's like I've said before, as have others here, for some reason
someone in an office, in a suit, who's never done a days manual labour in his
life, has decided that if you are a member of a trade body you are good at what
you do. If you are not, then you are incompetent.
I personally have found it to be a completely random affair where I've come
across plenty of people in the NICEIC who are downright clueless and dangerous,
and I've also come across plenty of people who aren't members of any trade
bodies and are extremely competent at what they do.
The problem is that ideally a case by case, or person by person, competence
check is needed, but there simply isn't the time or manpower, so a wider blanket
ruling is placed and covered with red tape so no-one has a clue what's going on.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
snip
The sort of D-I-Yer who makea a balls up and a dangerous mess is NOT the
sort of D-I-Yer who posts here for the most part. Its the sort who hang
out in B & Q, and use a staple gun to clip cables to the wall for their
new mood lighting...apart from one notable exception, those too stupid
to use a computer aren't represented here.

Staple-guns work just fine for clipping cabling.
(if careful, and not for power stuff of course.)
I made up a plant-label with a notch in it, and glued it to the
front of the staple-gun to ensure adequate centering, and then adjusted
the power so that it just gripped the cable.
Nice and fast, and no fiddling about looking for cable clips.
(it was just a temperature sensor wire, for the greenhouse)

On Sun, 23 May 2004 13:05:06 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:


Staple-guns work just fine for clipping cabling.
(if careful, and not for power stuff of course.)
I made up a plant-label with a notch in it, and glued it to the
front of the staple-gun to ensure adequate centering, and then adjusted
the power so that it just gripped the cable.
Nice and fast, and no fiddling about looking for cable clips.
(it was just a temperature sensor wire, for the greenhouse)

Hi,

Another one is to staple over a cable tie and use that to secure the
cable, handy where there is not enough space to hammer in a cable
clip.

cheers,
Pete.

"Ian Stirling" wrote
| Staple-guns work just fine for clipping cabling.
| (if careful, and not for power stuff of course.)

However audio cables should be clipped at irregular intervals to prevent the
formation of a standing wave.

Owain

"jacob" wrote in message
om...
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
.net...
"jacob" wrote in message
om...

Come to think - could make a good UK DIY T-shirt motto or DIY tattoo

A DIY tattoo?

There are some DIY projects I draw the line at ...

Mary

Easy peasy - you just have to remember that it comes out in reverse if
you are doing it infront of a mirror - MUM is ok though

I've been away this weekend and the consensus among the others trying to
sell their wares was that we'd have been more successful if we'd been
offering shoulder tattoos.

I wouldn't mind doing it to someone else but on myself ... no thanks. I
don't like needles ... shudder

Mary
cheers

Jacob

Mary Fisher wrote:

.... and I *WISH* you'd limit your postings to less than 80 columns,
they are a right mess when wrapped to fit (and, yes, there is an RFC
which recommends 80 columns or less, it's not just my whim).

You don't have to open his posts ...

Or mine.

Mary

As it turned out it was an error/oversight in his configuration and
he was pleased to have been told. I could possibly have been a bit
gentler about pointing it out though.

The RFCs and netiquette recommendations do have a purpose and while
I'm not pedantic about them I do try and comply with them and do also
ask others to if the ignore them consistently.

--
Chris Green