UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

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  #1   Report Post  
Kevin Chambers
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

Maybee It's just me getting depressed about how hard it seems to be to
do things legally without employing some semi-competent "insert trade
here" who has absolutely no interest in doing the job I want done (or
even returning a phone call usually). At the same time as not wanting
my custom most tradespeople seem to think it is their god given right
to be offered it at any price they choose and DIYers are taking the
bread from their childrens mouths. I'm mostly thinking of plumbers
here admitedly, but god forbid that regulations extend their powers to
other trades.

I can see the benefit of getting major work checked by a certified
person once it's complete but only if there was a fixed (reasonable)
charging scale and a guarantee that there will be someone willing to
do it.

I couldn't even find a plumber who'd run a gas pipe to a new boiler
and do the certification, I'd even have let someone hang it on the
wall. The greedy *******s knew there was a bit of simple plumbing
required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.
  #2   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

I couldn't even find a plumber who'd run a gas pipe to a new boiler
and do the certification, I'd even have let someone hang it on the
wall. The greedy *******s knew there was a bit of simple plumbing
required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.


Actually, working in your own home, you could have done that yourself if you
were willing to defend your competence to do the work in a court of law (if
required) and satisfy the building control department (as you wouldn't be
covered by the CORGI exemption from building control).

Christian.


  #3   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
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Default RIP DIY - longish rant

Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took
the stance that either you "shouldn't do it without a
qualification" or "you can't legally do it without a
qualification, and maybee that's OK".


You'll find that the answers to questions about dangerous subjects such as
electrical wiring depend very much on the OP's wording of the question. It
is often obvious that the OP really isn't at all competent in the field and
that it is far more appropriate to advise them to contract a professional to
do the work than encourage them to perform a task that they are clearly too
inexperienced but gung ho to complete safely.

On the other hand, some questions are clearly about specific technical
issues by people who do appear to understand the basic principles. They tend
to get the technical help needed to fill in the little gaps required to do
the job.

Christian.



  #4   Report Post  
Tim Mitchell
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

In article , Kevin
Chambers writes
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

It's not self righteous, it is unfortunately the way you have to think
in our increasingly litigious society (how do you spell that?).

You can carry on d-i-y-ing as much as you want, but you need to think
about the possible consequences of what you do, and the post you
reference above was all about that. It is not good advice to say "carry
on regardless" when there might be a liability claim waiting for you
round the next corner.
--
Tim Mitchell
not qualified in any DIY related subject
  #5   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

snipped (for space saving purposes)

required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.


The trades are setting new standards all the time, and equipment suppliers and
manufacturers are constantly changing designs and styles to comply with these new
standards. But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the trades are, so
problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge. Any reputable
tradesperson will be constantly updating their techniques to allow for new things
coming to the market and, in most cases, this is long before the DIYer is even aware
of what is happening. So new found dangers and changes to the codes of practice can
arise due to faults that were found with older techniques and newer methods must then
be introduced to compensate for them.

The average DIYer still has the "That'll do it for me" way of thinking when they carry
out an unfamiliar job. Fact. But, if the work they are carrying out can be dangerous
to people and / or even the environment, then the work is deemed, and rightly so, to
be unsuitable for safe use. This is where new certification schemes would come into
play.

Scenario 1;

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in the work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst into flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ? But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.

Is it the previous owners fault ? But he had no regulations to prevent him from doing
that type of work, so is he fully responsible ? He felt confident enough in doing the
job to his own standard.

Scenario 2;

The installation is fully tested before the new occupier moves in. This is all done
by people who know what to look for and how to test for all types of fault that might
be dangerous to the new occupier. He finds the fault during his survey and warns of
the impending danger. The new occupier has the defect repaired so that it isn't a
danger any more. No BLAM !!! in the middle of the night. No lives lost due faulty
installations.

Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to happen ?


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  #6   Report Post  
Lurch
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

On 21 May 2004 02:52:38 -0700, in uk.d-i-y
(Kevin Chambers) strung together this:

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".

The problem is that as competent as someone thinks they are at diy,
they're not always. I come across diy bodges on a day to day basis and
the people that install them can't see what they've got wrong and why
it's downright dangerous. There's a difference between telling
everyone you know what you're doing and actually knowing what you're
doing. If you don't know something, how do you know?
I'm not saying everyone is like this, just some people are a bit over
confident.

Maybee It's just me getting depressed about how hard it seems to be to
do things legally without employing some semi-competent "insert trade
here" who has absolutely no interest in doing the job I want done (or
even returning a phone call usually). At the same time as not wanting
my custom most tradespeople seem to think it is their god given right
to be offered it at any price they choose and DIYers are taking the
bread from their childrens mouths. I'm mostly thinking of plumbers
here admitedly, but god forbid that regulations extend their powers to
other trades.

It also works the other way, I don't really want to do work for people
who don't want to pay for whatever job it is they want doing and
assume that the first price I come up with must be a rip-off by
default. I don't have a problem doing small jobs, but the bigger
contracts are more worthwile as you're generally not been hassled
about knocking the price down a few quid.

I can see the benefit of getting major work checked by a certified
person once it's complete but only if there was a fixed (reasonable)
charging scale and a guarantee that there will be someone willing to
do it.

How do you fix a charging scale? Make all the small firms charge the
same as larger firms with more overheads so the smaller firm ends up
with more profit, or the other way round? You can't fix a price, even
if you did no-one would be happy. This country is obsessed with
moaning and whining about everything under the sun, or even the clouds
as it usually is!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
  #7   Report Post  
Bob Mannix
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".


Firstly you'll have a long search to find any ng without incredibly
self-righteous people on it (they tend to be attracted by the prospect of an
audience).

Secondly, yes it is depressing but that's not the fault of the posters who
are telling you how it *is*, not how it should be. After all, most original
posters are after information, not political debate (at least on uk.d-i-y
they are). It's not the DIY posters telling you you need a paper-competent
person who have made the situation - they are merely trying to help by
telling you what the situation is (well, most of them, including me). Saying
"you can't do x legally without a qualification" is not a stance, it's a
point of information. Many will carry on and do x anyway but at least they
are doing so better informed. If you aren't going to like the answer, don't
ask the question!

Bob Mannix


  #8   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

snipped (for space saving purposes)

required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.


The trades are setting new standards all the time, and equipment suppliers

and
manufacturers are constantly changing designs and styles to comply with

these new
standards. But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the

trades are, so
problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge. Any

reputable
tradesperson will be constantly updating their techniques to allow for new

things
coming to the market and, in most cases, this is long before the DIYer is

even aware
of what is happening. So new found dangers and changes to the codes of

practice can
arise due to faults that were found with older techniques and newer

methods must then
be introduced to compensate for them.

The average DIYer still has the "That'll do it for me" way of thinking

when they carry
out an unfamiliar job. Fact. But, if the work they are carrying out can

be dangerous
to people and / or even the environment, then the work is deemed, and

rightly so, to
be unsuitable for safe use. This is where new certification schemes would

come into
play.

Scenario 1;

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in

the work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst

into flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.

Is it the previous owners fault ? But he had no regulations to prevent

him from doing
that type of work, so is he fully responsible ? He felt confident enough

in doing the
job to his own standard.

Scenario 2;

The installation is fully tested before the new occupier moves in. This

is all done
by people who know what to look for and how to test for all types of fault

that might
be dangerous to the new occupier. He finds the fault during his survey

and warns of
the impending danger. The new occupier has the defect repaired so that it

isn't a
danger any more. No BLAM !!! in the middle of the night. No lives lost

due faulty
installations.

Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to happen ?


There's a third scenario. The work is done by (say) a CORGI registered
fitter, a sole trader. For whatever reason it goes BLAM - at any time in the
future.

The fitter can't be found - moved, changed jobs, died ....

What then?

Mary


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  #9   Report Post  
Tony Bryer
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

In article , BigWallop
wrote:
But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the trades are,
so problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge.


When it comes to central heating this does not seem to tally with the
experience of people here. While members of this group are discussing the
merits of various condensing boilers, control options, UFH etc, more than
a few in the queue at the merchants want only to fit what they were
fitting 10 or 15 years ago.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm


  #10   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

snipped (for space saving purposes)

required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.


The trades are setting new standards all the time, and equipment suppliers

and
manufacturers are constantly changing designs and styles to comply with

these new
standards. But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the

trades are, so
problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge. Any

reputable
tradesperson will be constantly updating their techniques to allow for new

things
coming to the market and, in most cases, this is long before the DIYer is

even aware
of what is happening. So new found dangers and changes to the codes of

practice can
arise due to faults that were found with older techniques and newer

methods must then
be introduced to compensate for them.

The average DIYer still has the "That'll do it for me" way of thinking

when they carry
out an unfamiliar job. Fact. But, if the work they are carrying out can

be dangerous
to people and / or even the environment, then the work is deemed, and

rightly so, to
be unsuitable for safe use. This is where new certification schemes would

come into
play.

Scenario 1;

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in

the work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst

into flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.

Is it the previous owners fault ? But he had no regulations to prevent

him from doing
that type of work, so is he fully responsible ? He felt confident enough

in doing the
job to his own standard.

Scenario 2;

The installation is fully tested before the new occupier moves in. This

is all done
by people who know what to look for and how to test for all types of fault

that might
be dangerous to the new occupier. He finds the fault during his survey

and warns of
the impending danger. The new occupier has the defect repaired so that it

isn't a
danger any more. No BLAM !!! in the middle of the night. No lives lost

due faulty
installations.

Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to happen ?


There's a third scenario. The work is done by (say) a CORGI registered
fitter, a sole trader. For whatever reason it goes BLAM - at any time in the
future.

The fitter can't be found - moved, changed jobs, died ....

What then?

Mary


The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise on these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country, then the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do have a comeback on
someone if this does occur. If the installer wasn't part of any of these organisations,
then they wouldn't be properly certificated and, hence, shouldn't be installing that type
of equipment. So it goes back to being a DIY job.


---
http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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  #11   Report Post  
RichardS
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...


snip


There's a third scenario. The work is done by (say) a CORGI registered
fitter, a sole trader. For whatever reason it goes BLAM - at any time in

the
future.

The fitter can't be found - moved, changed jobs, died ....

What then?

Mary


The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise on

these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country, then

the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do

have a comeback on
someone if this does occur. If the installer wasn't part of any of these

organisations,
then they wouldn't be properly certificated and, hence, shouldn't be

installing that type
of equipment. So it goes back to being a DIY job.


You reckon that the trade body would accept any liablilty whatsoever because
one of their past members had done a shoddy job? Or that they would do
anything other than fight like hell to protect their member's interest?



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk


  #12   Report Post  
stuart noble
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in the

work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst into

flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.


As an accountant he'll know all about overcharging and putting the fear of
God into people about the consequences of d-i-y. As Mary and others have
said your BLAM!!! incidents are far more likely to be the result of greedy
tradesmen being in too much of a hurry.
Woman over the road literally had a ceiling fall on her head after a plumber
forgot to connect a fitting in the bathroom. He did buy her a bunch of
flowers though.


  #13   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , BigWallop
wrote:

But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the trades are,
so problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge.


When it comes to central heating this does not seem to tally with the
experience of people here. While members of this group are discussing the
merits of various condensing boilers, control options, UFH etc, more than
a few in the queue at the merchants want only to fit what they were
fitting 10 or 15 years ago.



That was precisely my experience. I really had to do ALL the work on my
UFH system myself - the plumber simply shook his head and wanted nothing
to do with it.

Trades, by and large, do NOT want to take risks by doing something new
and different. They want to do what they know exactly how to do, as
profitably as possible.

I had architects, structural engineers and teh BCO scarthig their heads
and muttering over what I wanted to do. In the end (and you could hear
them almost muttering 'glad its his money') I ended up with somethng
unique, different and mostly working correctly. Only teh bits I DIDN'T
come here to ask about (and relied on so called builders and experts)
had problems.

The sort of D-I-Yer who makea a balls up and a dangerous mess is NOT the
sort of D-I-Yer who posts here for the most part. Its the sort who hang
out in B & Q, and use a staple gun to clip cables to the wall for their
new mood lighting...apart from one notable exception, those too stupid
to use a computer aren't represented here.

  #14   Report Post  
RichardS
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

snipped (for space saving purposes)

required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless I
found someone to do the gas and certification.


The trades are setting new standards all the time, and equipment suppliers

and
manufacturers are constantly changing designs and styles to comply with

these new
standards. But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the

trades are, so
problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge. Any

reputable
tradesperson will be constantly updating their techniques to allow for new

things
coming to the market and, in most cases, this is long before the DIYer is

even aware
of what is happening. So new found dangers and changes to the codes of

practice can
arise due to faults that were found with older techniques and newer

methods must then
be introduced to compensate for them.

The average DIYer still has the "That'll do it for me" way of thinking

when they carry
out an unfamiliar job. Fact. But, if the work they are carrying out can

be dangerous
to people and / or even the environment, then the work is deemed, and

rightly so, to
be unsuitable for safe use. This is where new certification schemes would

come into
play.


You've stated this before. Do you have any evidence to back this assertion
up? Is, on average, DIY work statistically better or worse than the broad
spectrum of work carried out by tradesmen (qualified or not?).

In the ODPM's "justification" for BRegs Part P ISTR that the number of fatal
electrocutions in the UK is tiny (in 10s rather than 100s or 1000s), and the
stats don't distinguish between fixed and portable appliances, nor
unqualified as opposed to qualified installations.

Where do we stop with this obsession with qualifications and certification?
Should DIY/unqualified car maintenance be banned on the grounds that you
might not spot a problem with the brakes if you happen to be changing the
oil filter?


Scenario 1;

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in

the work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst

into flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.


Caveat Emptor. It's stunning that we don't commission electrical surveys
and gas safety checks more frequently as part of the house buying process.

Of course an electrical check even on work properly and competently carried
out by a fully qualified sparky 10 years ago might come back as
"installation does not meet current wiring regs". What does that mean? Is
it dangerous? I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of uk housing stock
doesn't meet current standards, and accident (electrocution/fire/etc) rates
are not out of control.


Is it the previous owners fault ? But he had no regulations to prevent

him from doing
that type of work, so is he fully responsible ? He felt confident enough

in doing the
job to his own standard.


There are probably adequate remedies at law for dangerously shoddy work,
criminal negligence probably being at the top of the tree.

And if they want to feel confidently isolated from potential claims after a
house sale they could always commission gas/'electric safety checks and give
the buyers the reports...

snip

We have turned into a society obsessed with fear of insurance companies, the
cult of the "professional", rules and regulations, and the fear of something
going wrong no matter how small the risk.


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk


  #15   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , BigWallop
wrote:
But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as the trades are,
so problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge.


When it comes to central heating this does not seem to tally with the
experience of people here. While members of this group are discussing the
merits of various condensing boilers, control options, UFH etc, more than
a few in the queue at the merchants want only to fit what they were
fitting 10 or 15 years ago.


That being the case, is the internal workings of these controllers still the same as it
was 10 or 15 years ago. Would the DIYer fitting them notice that changes to the thickness
of the contacts inside the relays has had to be changed because the thinner ones don't
take the new load ratings from the newer boilers which sits further down the line from
them.

No they wouldn't. They'd only know that the controller looks the same and does the same
job as it always did. But, on the other hand, anyone with the knowledge to know that
after a certain date these controllers are not suitable for the newer boilers, because
they cause problems with the new contacts burning out, and they would / should
automatically change it because they know to look at the date of manufacture on the
controllers. That's a properly informed tradesperson.

Being competent, as has been mentioned before, is not the same as being certified to do
the work safely and securely. When I buy timber to make something, and I'm not joiner or
carpenter, I wouldn't know the first thing about the grain, the species, or the workings
of all the woods. I'd rely on someone telling me that, that particular wood is what I
should be using for that particular job. Who would be telling me this ? Someone with a
lot more experience in the job than I have. A fully qualified person in other words.

I don't think there are many DIYers who could walk in to a trade merchant and ask for a
special device or fitting that needs to be fitted into a particular job, without having
done some research into the job they're doing. The research being the proper procedures
and equipment needed to install the job properly and to full specifications of safety and
security. Who cares if the knowledge they gleaned from their research is never used by
them again. At least they took time to make sure that they knew all the implications of
the work they're going to carry out.

If the job then needs to be inspected by someone who is trained in the quality factor of
that type of work, then the DIYer would have no hesitation in allowing this to happen,
because they would know that they have learned as much as they can before, during and
after doing the work. So they should then be confident enough to allow the inspector to
have a look. It's the work that is not inspected that is causing dangerous circumstances.
New legislations are not created from thin air. They're created due to the continually
changing environments in the way equipment is being installed. And it is the final
installation of this equipment which creates dangerous environments.


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  #16   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
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Default RIP DIY - longish rant

In article ,
Kevin Chambers wrote:
However, it has struck me recently that a lot of people who post
here have an incredibly self righteous outlook, considering this is a
DIY forum. Particularly following the post on legality of electrical
wiring it was quite depressing how many of the replies took the stance
that either you "shouldn't do it without a qualification" or "you
can't legally do it without a qualification, and maybee that's OK".


I'd encourage anyone to have a go at near anything DIY. But when you see a
post that shows a lacking of even the most basic knowledge of electrics -
the sort of thing you'd get in a leaflet with switches sold at B&Q etc -
it begs the question as to whether that person should be attempting it
without first doing a little *basic* learning.

FWIW, I'm not referring to any particular thread in the above.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #17   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
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"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .
"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...


snip


There's a third scenario. The work is done by (say) a CORGI registered
fitter, a sole trader. For whatever reason it goes BLAM - at any time in

the
future.

The fitter can't be found - moved, changed jobs, died ....

What then?

Mary


The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise on

these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country, then

the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do

have a comeback on
someone if this does occur. If the installer wasn't part of any of these

organisations,
then they wouldn't be properly certificated and, hence, shouldn't be

installing that type
of equipment. So it goes back to being a DIY job.


You reckon that the trade body would accept any liablilty whatsoever because
one of their past members had done a shoddy job? Or that they would do
anything other than fight like hell to protect their member's interest?

Richard Sampson


If the signature on the completion or safety certificate was made by one of their members,
then yes, they do have to uphold their part in the proceedings. After all, it is them who
makes the rules.


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  #18   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
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"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in the

work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst into

flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.


As an accountant he'll know all about overcharging and putting the fear of
God into people about the consequences of d-i-y. As Mary and others have
said your BLAM!!! incidents are far more likely to be the result of greedy
tradesmen being in too much of a hurry.
Woman over the road literally had a ceiling fall on her head after a plumber
forgot to connect a fitting in the bathroom. He did buy her a bunch of
flowers though.



Just a bunch of flowers ? Why didn't his properly obtained insurance cover the damage he
caused ? Was it because he didn't have a clue and the over charging was because he is an
unregistered cowboy.

This is why we need regulation of the trades. If a certain job takes a certain amount of
time and money, then the trades would have to knuckle down to a set amount of pay for that
type of work. Many trades are held back by local situations. Rents and rates on
workshops vary widely across the country, vehicle up keep and other transport situations
also vary as you move from region to region. So you have to allow for a certain overhead
structure on the pricing of things as well.

Accidents do occasionally happen. Yes, they do, that's why they are called accidents.
But downright ignorance to the possible dangers of your actions is not an accident.


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  #19   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
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"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

snipped (for space saving purposes)

required which they could charge £500 a day for (plus overcharging

for
the parts obviously) and that I couldn't legally do anything unless

I
found someone to do the gas and certification.

The trades are setting new standards all the time, and equipment

suppliers
and
manufacturers are constantly changing designs and styles to comply

with
these new
standards. But the DIYer is not changing with the times as fast as

the
trades are, so
problems are now starting to arise from this gap in knowledge. Any

reputable
tradesperson will be constantly updating their techniques to allow for

new
things
coming to the market and, in most cases, this is long before the DIYer

is
even aware
of what is happening. So new found dangers and changes to the codes

of
practice can
arise due to faults that were found with older techniques and newer

methods must then
be introduced to compensate for them.

The average DIYer still has the "That'll do it for me" way of thinking

when they carry
out an unfamiliar job. Fact. But, if the work they are carrying out

can
be dangerous
to people and / or even the environment, then the work is deemed, and


rightly so, to
be unsuitable for safe use. This is where new certification schemes

would
come into
play.

Scenario 1;

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their

own
home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect

in
the work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed

one
night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst

into flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything

?
But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.

Is it the previous owners fault ? But he had no regulations to

prevent
him from doing
that type of work, so is he fully responsible ? He felt confident

enough
in doing the
job to his own standard.

Scenario 2;

The installation is fully tested before the new occupier moves in.

This
is all done
by people who know what to look for and how to test for all types of

fault
that might
be dangerous to the new occupier. He finds the fault during his

survey
and warns of
the impending danger. The new occupier has the defect repaired so

that it
isn't a
danger any more. No BLAM !!! in the middle of the night. No lives

lost
due faulty
installations.

Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to happen ?


There's a third scenario. The work is done by (say) a CORGI registered
fitter, a sole trader. For whatever reason it goes BLAM - at any time in

the
future.

The fitter can't be found - moved, changed jobs, died ....

What then?

Mary


The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise on

these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country, then

the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do

have a comeback on
someone if this does occur.


Not if you're dead.

Mary


  #20   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
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"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in

the
work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst

into
flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.


As an accountant he'll know all about overcharging and putting the fear of
God into people about the consequences of d-i-y. As Mary and others have
said your BLAM!!! incidents are far more likely to be the result of greedy
tradesmen being in too much of a hurry.
Woman over the road literally had a ceiling fall on her head after a

plumber
forgot to connect a fitting in the bathroom. He did buy her a bunch of
flowers though.


Aww - that was kind.

Mary






  #21   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
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"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .



Caveat Emptor. It's stunning that we don't commission electrical surveys
and gas safety checks more frequently as part of the house buying process.

Of course an electrical check even on work properly and competently

carried
out by a fully qualified sparky 10 years ago might come back as
"installation does not meet current wiring regs". What does that mean?

Is
it dangerous? I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of uk housing

stock
doesn't meet current standards, and accident (electrocution/fire/etc)

rates
are not out of control.

I'm sure that's true. I'm sure it's also true of appliances, vehicles and
(especially) humans. Who hereabouts has the perfect body - because s/he
looks after it as we're all advised so that our lives are happier and
prolonged?

Mary


  #22   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Chambers" wrote in message
om...
I've been (mostly) reading this group for over a year whilst
renovating my house and during that time have got some usefull
information from it.

snipped

job to his own standard.


There are probably adequate remedies at law for dangerously shoddy work,
criminal negligence probably being at the top of the tree.

And if they want to feel confidently isolated from potential claims after a
house sale they could always commission gas/'electric safety checks and give
the buyers the reports...

snip

We have turned into a society obsessed with fear of insurance companies, the
cult of the "professional", rules and regulations, and the fear of something
going wrong no matter how small the risk.

Richard Sampson



We're not turning into an obsessed society, we are, and always have been, an obsessed
society. The new legislations are taking into account the increase in the DIY trade
across the country. These new legislations are being put in place to prevent the increase
that this market will surely cause. The legislations are being pressured by the insurance
companies, mainly because it is them that have to deal with the consequences of the
outcome of the shoddy workmanship. It is the insurance companies that are assuring that
they have a comeback to some other entity for an installation not being to certain quality
standards.

That's why it is beginning with the services that could potentially be fatal if
incorrectly configured, for the want of better description. The dangers of gas and
electrical equipment are all to plain to see. Any leakage from any of them is
potentially, if not consequentially, fatal to the safety of persons and environments
around the leakage. All the equipment used on the installation is suitable for the job.
The person that is installing the equipment doesn't know that the equipment must be at a
certain temperature, or tightened to certain torque in the case of your vehicle, and a
leakage is caused by this lack of knowledge. What's the outcome ?

I personally think it comes down to the point that two heads are better than one, and if
you can have someone with a good knowledge of the trade to give it a check over after the
works done, and they don't see or detect any problems with it after they carry out their
tests. Then it is a good thing to have done.

The legislations are there to protect before the statistics increase, and not put in place
after the stat's show they are needed.


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  #23   Report Post  
Tony
 
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Default RIP DIY - longish rant

BigWallop wrote:
"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in
their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the....


A general question to all - I've heard that the wiring colouring is to
change but are the rules for electrical work changing to? I tried googling
but this group has so much thread creep it was a waste of time.

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person to do
the job?

Is there a simple clear link that explains the changes that are coming?

Tony


  #24   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped
The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise on

these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country, then

the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do

have a comeback on
someone if this does occur.


Not if you're dead.

Mary



(more extremes to follow) :-)) Yes you do. Well, rightly, your relatives and lawyers
appoint would.


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  #25   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their own

home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect in

the
work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed one

night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have burst

into
flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything ?

But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.


As an accountant he'll know all about overcharging and putting the fear of
God into people about the consequences of d-i-y. As Mary and others have
said your BLAM!!! incidents are far more likely to be the result of greedy
tradesmen being in too much of a hurry.
Woman over the road literally had a ceiling fall on her head after a

plumber
forgot to connect a fitting in the bathroom. He did buy her a bunch of
flowers though.


Aww - that was kind.

Mary


If a tradesperson tried to palm me off with a bunch of flowers to cover the cost of damage
they caused, I'd ram them up their ass.....uming they would offer me flowers in the first
place.


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  #26   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
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"Tony" wrote in message ...
BigWallop wrote:
"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in
their own
home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the....


A general question to all - I've heard that the wiring colouring is to
change but are the rules for electrical work changing to? I tried googling
but this group has so much thread creep it was a waste of time.

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person to do
the job?

Is there a simple clear link that explains the changes that are coming?

Tony



Or the changes that are already here, even. This should help explain:

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/electriccables.htm


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  #27   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped
The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise

on
these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country,

then
the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do

have a comeback on
someone if this does occur.


Not if you're dead.

Mary



(more extremes to follow) :-)) Yes you do. Well, rightly, your

relatives and lawyers
appoint would.


That will be a very great comfort :-)))


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  #28   Report Post  
 
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Tony wrote:
[snip]

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person to do
the job?

Gas fittings haven't disappeared so why should light fitting?

--
Chris Green
  #29   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

The work carried out on a service installation by the DIYer in their

own
home isn't
perfectly done. The house is then sold on, but still has the defect

in
the
work
carried out by the last DIY owner. The new occupier is lying in bed

one
night and
suddenly BLAM !!! the cooker pipework, or the shower wiring have

burst
into
flames due
to the defect left by the last owner.

Who's at fault ? The new occupier because he didn't check everything

?
But he works
as an accountant and doesn't know anything about DIY at all.

As an accountant he'll know all about overcharging and putting the

fear of
God into people about the consequences of d-i-y. As Mary and others

have
said your BLAM!!! incidents are far more likely to be the result of

greedy
tradesmen being in too much of a hurry.
Woman over the road literally had a ceiling fall on her head after a

plumber
forgot to connect a fitting in the bathroom. He did buy her a bunch of
flowers though.


Aww - that was kind.

Mary


If a tradesperson tried to palm me off with a bunch of flowers to cover

the cost of damage
they caused, I'd ram them up their ass.....uming they would offer me

flowers in the first
place.


I might consider placing them on his grave.

Mary


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  #30   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
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"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped
The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to advise

on
these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the country,

then
the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So you do
have a comeback on
someone if this does occur.

Not if you're dead.

Mary



(more extremes to follow) :-)) Yes you do. Well, rightly, your

relatives and lawyers
appoint would.


That will be a very great comfort :-)))



Any compensation would help to pay for the pretty box at least. :-))


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  #31   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...




I personally think it comes down to the point that two heads are better

than one, and if
you can have someone with a good knowledge of the trade to give it a check

over after the
works done, and they don't see or detect any problems with it after they

carry out their
tests. Then it is a good thing to have done.


It is indeed a counsel of perfection.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans ...

Mary


  #32   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


wrote in message ...
Tony wrote:
[snip]

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person to do
the job?

Gas fittings haven't disappeared so why should light fitting?


Chris Green


But there is nothing in place that says you can't carry out any DIY for yourself. That's
why it is called Do It Yourself. The point of being able to carry out work for others,
and profit from that work, is the coverage of the legislations. You can still quite
happily blow yourself and your property to kingdom come with a faulty gas or electrical
installation, just as long as you don't interfere with the property and well being of
others around you. It's this point that gets you into trouble.


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  #33   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...




I personally think it comes down to the point that two heads are better

than one, and if
you can have someone with a good knowledge of the trade to give it a check

over after the
works done, and they don't see or detect any problems with it after they

carry out their
tests. Then it is a good thing to have done.


It is indeed a counsel of perfection.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans ...


And names that cannae hurt eis ?


Mary



Sorry ! That's the sticks and stones one, isn't it ?


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  #34   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches
for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person to

do
the job?


They sell boilers, gas PTFE tape and so forth, so there's no reason to
suspect so, even if the law is changed.

Christian.


  #35   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Tony" wrote in message

...
BigWallop wrote:

A general question to all - I've heard that the wiring colouring is to
change but are the rules for electrical work changing to? I tried

googling
but this group has so much thread creep it was a waste of time.

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches

for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person

to do
the job?

Is there a simple clear link that explains the changes that are coming?

Tony



Or the changes that are already here, even. This should help explain:

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/electriccables.htm


I wonder if it will be possible to just sit an exam and get the certificate,
or whether you will have to go through an expensive course first...

Stupid question, I suppose!

Bob




  #36   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

BigWallop wrote:

wrote in message ...
Tony wrote:
[snip]

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person to do
the job?

Gas fittings haven't disappeared so why should light fitting?


Chris Green


But there is nothing in place that says you can't carry out any DIY for yourself. That's
why it is called Do It Yourself. The point of being able to carry out work for others,
and profit from that work, is the coverage of the legislations. You can still quite
happily blow yourself and your property to kingdom come with a faulty gas or electrical
installation, just as long as you don't interfere with the property and well being of
others around you. It's this point that gets you into trouble.

What are you rambling on about? It has absolutely nothing to do with
the question of whether electrical accessories will disappear from B&Q
as far as I can see and even less to do with my response.

..... and I *WISH* you'd limit your postings to less than 80 columns,
they are a right mess when wrapped to fit (and, yes, there is an RFC
which recommends 80 columns or less, it's not just my whim).

--
Chris Green
  #37   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped
The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to

advise
on
these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the

country,
then
the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So

you do
have a comeback on
someone if this does occur.

Not if you're dead.

Mary



(more extremes to follow) :-)) Yes you do. Well, rightly, your

relatives and lawyers
appoint would.


That will be a very great comfort :-)))



Any compensation would help to pay for the pretty box at least. :-))


I'm not having one. A plank (reclaimed boards) and a winding sheet will be
enough.

We're interested in archaeology, especially graves and their contents.
Recently I asked Spouse what he'd like to be buried in, he has a choice of
clothing from Roman to VII Edwardian. He said that, since he spent so much
time in it, his boiler suit would be the most suitable.

Mary


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  #38   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped
The trade organisation he/she was a member of will be able to

advise
on
these procedures
for you. If the installer has died or moved away out of the

country,
then
the matter is
taken up by the powers that regulate that particular trade. So

you do
have a comeback on
someone if this does occur.

Not if you're dead.

Mary



(more extremes to follow) :-)) Yes you do. Well, rightly, your
relatives and lawyers
appoint would.

That will be a very great comfort :-)))



Any compensation would help to pay for the pretty box at least. :-))


I'm not having one. A plank (reclaimed boards) and a winding sheet will be
enough.

We're interested in archaeology, especially graves and their contents.
Recently I asked Spouse what he'd like to be buried in, he has a choice of
clothing from Roman to VII Edwardian. He said that, since he spent so much
time in it, his boiler suit would be the most suitable.

Mary


That's a man efter mee ane hert. :-))

The better half was going to leave her body to medical science but I told her she's going
in a black plastic bag in the back garden. She always likes the view from there anyway.

Ooh ! I'm being horrid.


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  #39   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant


wrote in message ...
BigWallop wrote:

wrote in message ...
Tony wrote:
[snip]

Is electrical work going the same way as gas work? Will light switches

for
example, be disappearing from B&Q cos it will needs a qualified person

to do
the job?

Gas fittings haven't disappeared so why should light fitting?


Chris Green


But there is nothing in place that says you can't carry out any DIY for

yourself. That's
why it is called Do It Yourself. The point of being able to carry out work

for others,
and profit from that work, is the coverage of the legislations. You can

still quite
happily blow yourself and your property to kingdom come with a faulty gas or

electrical
installation, just as long as you don't interfere with the property and well

being of
others around you. It's this point that gets you into trouble.

What are you rambling on about? It has absolutely nothing to do with
the question of whether electrical accessories will disappear from B&Q
as far as I can see and even less to do with my response.

.... and I *WISH* you'd limit your postings to less than 80 columns,
they are a right mess when wrapped to fit (and, yes, there is an RFC
which recommends 80 columns or less, it's not just my whim).


Chris Green


I was unaware that my columns were so exposed to being wrapped to fit. I have,
however, just checked my setting and they were indeed set incorrectly. I
installed a piece of software that could have had an influence on these
settings, but this has now been removed. I can only thank you for pointing this
out to me.


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  #40   Report Post  
Owain
 
Posts: n/a
Default RIP DIY - longish rant

"BigWallop" wrote
| ... The legislations are being pressured by the insurance
| companies, mainly because it is them that have to deal with the
| consequences of the outcome of the shoddy workmanship. ...
| That's why it is beginning with the services that could potentially
| be fatal if incorrectly configured, for the want of better description.
| The dangers of gas and electrical equipment are all to plain to see.

But what are the comparative statistics for deaths and injuries from DIY gas
and electrical installation, and from deaths and injuries from tripping over
frayed carpets and falling down the stairs?

Should carpet-fitting be a restricted practice and all householders have to
have an annual inspection of their carpets and a slipperiness test carried
out on hard floors?

And why are shops still allowed to sell chip pans?

Owain


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