Dear Group,

as threatened in my previous post, here's another ...

I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the stairs in
between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that you have to walk
through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom - unless you halve the floor
area by making a corridor around the edge - thus spoiling the better
bedroom.

http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

Since the stair treads and risers need replacing anyway (though with luck
this would cost little more than the price of a sheet of MDF and one of
plywood), it has been suggested I might have new stairs made and fitted in
reverse at an estimated cost of at least £500.
In the process I also get improved use of the alcoves for storage ...

I can't predict whether I would be looking to sell or rent the house any
time soon, but I wonder if someone could please take a look at my sketch and
tell me if what I am suggesting is an improvement and "worth" the expense.

thanks in anticipation

Jeremy






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"brugnospamsia" wrote
| I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the
| stairs in between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that
| you have to walk through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom -
| unless you halve the floor area by making a corridor around the edge
| - thus spoiling the better bedroom.
| http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

I think exactly this problem came up on Property Ladder and the advice was
*definately* make the bathroom accessible not through a bedroom. The
property isn't really a *two* bedroom house without it. In that case the
solution was to put a corridor down one side of the bedroom.

For the rental market, two house-sharing adults will not tolerate the only
bathroom (and loo) being through a bedroom, and most families will be put
off it as well. This will also affect the resale value.

I would suggest not using a 'folding screen' between the back bedroom and
the corridor but a proper wall. It will probably be required for B Regs
compliance anyway.

Bear in mind, however, that replacing the staircase with a new one in a
different location / orientation may require full compliance with current
Building Regulations for the staircase, as well as for the new walls etc.

On the ground floor, I would suggest that the layout of the rooms is the
wrong way round; the dining room should be closer to the kitchen. What many
people will prefer is a larger lounge and a kitchen-diner.

What you might consider is putting in a U shaped staircase, with its head in
your proposed 'new' location to serve the bedrooms and bathroom; but with
its base towards the rear of the house, i.e. taking the dividing wall
between the downstairs and back rooms backwards to give a larger lounge.
Open up between the kitchen and the back room to make a kitchen-diner with a
french door to the garden. Drawback to the U is making an alcove in the
upstairs room to accommodate the non-straight-line headroom.

Sample rough-up diagram is at (5.3kB)
http://www.stirlingcity.co.uk/ofc1/houselayout.png

Owain

brugnospamsia wrote:

I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the stairs in
between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that you have to walk
through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom - unless you halve the floor
area by making a corridor around the edge - thus spoiling the better
bedroom.

http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

Since the stair treads and risers need replacing anyway (though with luck
this would cost little more than the price of a sheet of MDF and one of
plywood), it has been suggested I might have new stairs made and fitted in
reverse at an estimated cost of at least ï½£500.
In the process I also get improved use of the alcoves for storage ...

If you get someone to build and install a staircase for you, then I
would expect to pay a bit more than that, if you DIY then you could do
it for less. A compromise might be to get a staircase kit (screwfix do
one IIRC) if you can get one with appropriate rise and going, and
install that.

I can't predict whether I would be looking to sell or rent the house any
time soon, but I wonder if someone could please take a look at my sketch and
tell me if what I am suggesting is an improvement and "worth" the expense.

Certainly worth doing I would say. It is going to be a big turn off for
a good proportion of the prospective buyers I would have thought.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Owain"
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: house layout vs. return on investment ??


"brugnospamsia" wrote
| I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the
| stairs in between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that
| you have to walk through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom -
| unless you halve the floor area by making a corridor around the edge
| - thus spoiling the better bedroom.
| http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

I think exactly this problem came up on Property Ladder and the advice was
*definately* make the bathroom accessible not through a bedroom. The
property isn't really a *two* bedroom house without it. In that case the
solution was to put a corridor down one side of the bedroom.

For the rental market, two house-sharing adults will not tolerate the only
bathroom (and loo) being through a bedroom, and most families will be put
off it as well. This will also affect the resale value.

I would suggest not using a 'folding screen' between the back bedroom and
the corridor but a proper wall. It will probably be required for B Regs
compliance anyway.

thanks mate - my intention was to fit a permanent wall if I ever had to sell
or rent out the house.
I handnt thought about building regs - I was half planning to fit fire doors
in any case - prefer the appearance too - though no doubt the buying public
will require I swap them for cheap panelled (fire-rated) doors if I were to
sell.
(Or if my made-over house lumbered me with a social life improved to the
extent of regular house guests !)


Bear in mind, however, that replacing the staircase with a new one in a
different location / orientation may require full compliance with current
Building Regulations for the staircase, as well as for the new walls etc.

On the ground floor, I would suggest that the layout of the rooms is the
wrong way round; the dining room should be closer to the kitchen. What
many
people will prefer is a larger lounge and a kitchen-diner.

I plan to be so mimimal and organised that I can reverse the room functions
in a flash if I were selling. I cause less annoyance to my neighbours by
having HIFI and TV in back room. I currently have plasterboard nailed over
the old glazed door and an attempt at soundproofing in the alcoves.
Formal dining for me is a very low priority. I currently plan to move most
of the kitchen functions into the front room. Coming up with a worthwhile
kitchen for resale purposes will be a real challenge with the existing one
being only 6 ft x 8 ft 6" internally. I can see I'll have to have to plan
for a future "selling layout".


What you might consider is putting in a U shaped staircase, with its head
in
your proposed 'new' location to serve the bedrooms and bathroom; but with
its base towards the rear of the house, i.e. taking the dividing wall
between the downstairs and back rooms backwards to give a larger lounge.
Open up between the kitchen and the back room to make a kitchen-diner with
a
french door to the garden. Drawback to the U is making an alcove in the
upstairs room to accommodate the non-straight-line headroom.

Sample rough-up diagram is at (5.3kB)
http://www.stirlingcity.co.uk/ofc1/houselayout.png

thanks mate ! - looks great but it's a bit more rad than I had in mind - the
house is a centre valley so I can see structural engineers and tonnes of
steel involved here ! (and no doubt underpinning of the single brick party
walls - I'm hoping to avoid having to consult the neighbours ! )

you certainly get great service in uk.d-i-y :-)

Jeremy


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John Rumm wrote:
brugnospamsia wrote:

Since the stair treads and risers need replacing anyway (though with luck
this would cost little more than the price of a sheet of MDF and one of
plywood), it has been suggested I might have new stairs made and
fitted in
reverse at an estimated cost of at least ï½£500.
In the process I also get improved use of the alcoves for storage ...


If you get someone to build and install a staircase for you, then I
would expect to pay a bit more than that, if you DIY then you could do
it for less. A compromise might be to get a staircase kit (screwfix do
one IIRC) if you can get one with appropriate rise and going, and
install that.

If you do need a bespoke staircase making up (which is common for an old
house with non-standard ceiling heights), can I strongly recommend
http://www.stairplan.co.uk - they recently made me an excellent quality
(straight) staircase to precisely my specifications, for 380 GBP incl
VAT and delivery.

David

Lobster wrote:

If you do need a bespoke staircase making up (which is common for an old
house with non-standard ceiling heights), can I strongly recommend
http://www.stairplan.co.uk - they recently made me an excellent quality
(straight) staircase to precisely my specifications, for 380 GBP incl
VAT and delivery.

That is quite a good price... Was that just a striaght staircase?

(I got various quotes for a staircase with a quarter wind top and bottom
and the cheapest was coming in at 800 ish, but that was without fitting.
In the end I built my own, but found that at least half the work was in
the fitting with that sort of stair)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Rumm"
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 11:31 AM
Subject: house layout vs. return on investment ??


Lobster wrote:

If you do need a bespoke staircase making up (which is common for an old
house with non-standard ceiling heights), can I strongly recommend
http://www.stairplan.co.uk - they recently made me an excellent quality
(straight) staircase to precisely my specifications, for 380 GBP incl VAT
and delivery.

That is quite a good price... Was that just a striaght staircase?

(I got various quotes for a staircase with a quarter wind top and bottom
and the cheapest was coming in at 800 ish, but that was without fitting.
In the end I built my own, but found that at least half the work was in
the fitting with that sort of stair)


oops !

I'm hoping mine will be a bit cheaper due to its being simpler and fitting
between two walls and will almost certainly be carpeted rather than
varnished - though I may go for real wood treads to allow for the vagaries
of taste ....





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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 05:22:00 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
"brugnospamsia" randomly hit the
keyboard and produced:

I handnt thought about building regs - I was half planning to fit fire doors
in any case - prefer the appearance too - though no doubt the buying public
will require I swap them for cheap panelled (fire-rated) doors if I were to
sell.

Two things;

1. I would agree with a previous poster, a permanent corridor to the
bathroom would certainly be a better resale prospect.

2. Building Regulations will apply to your work, as at the very least
you are adversely affecting the means of escape in case of fire. On
your existing layout, there is the choice of two separate escape
routes from the bottom of the stairs, whereas in your proposed layout,
you would have to go through the front lounge. If this was where the
fire was, you're screwed. In order to comply, the windows to the
bedrooms would need to have minimum clear openings of 0.33m² and a
minimum clear opening dimension (width or height) of 0.45m, with the
bottom of the opening between 0.8m-1.1m above the floor. You _could_
fit fire doors, but IMHO there's not much point. The greater safety
improvement would be mains-wired, interlinked smoke detectors on both
storeys.
--
Hugo Nebula
'What you have to ask yourself is, "if no-one on the internet wants
a piece of this, just how far from the pack have you strayed?"'

"brugnospamsia" wrote
| thanks mate - my intention was to fit a permanent wall if I ever had to
| sell or rent out the house.
| I handnt thought about building regs - I was half planning to fit fire
| doors in any case

You probably do not require fire doors in a two-storey property which is not
a House of Multiple Occupation. However you must consider building regs.
Your property, if done up, will probably appeal to first time buyers who
will be frightened off by any irregularities in permissions.

| Formal dining for me is a very low priority.

And for most prospective purchasers/renters in this type of property, which
is why I suggested a kitchen-diner.

| I currently plan to move most
| of the kitchen functions into the front room.

That will mean however that your staircase (escape route from upper floor)
passes through a kitchen, which may be unacceptable.

| Coming up with a worthwhile kitchen for resale purposes will be a real
| challenge with the existing one being only 6 ft x 8 ft 6" internally.
| I can see I'll have to have to plan for a future "selling layout".

Hence knocking through and making kitchen-diner, otherwise it will feel like
a scullery. On the upside, because it's a small kitchen you can use nicer
units and tiles for that 'wow' factor without it costing as much as it would
in a bigger room.

| Sample rough-up diagram is at (5.3kB)
| http://www.stirlingcity.co.uk/ofc1/houselayout.png
| thanks mate ! - looks great but it's a bit more rad than I had in mind -
| the house is a centre valley

buggers any hope of a loft con then.

| so I can see structural engineers and tonnes
| of steel involved here !

I kept the bedroom centre walls where they were :-) A couple of hours of an
engineer's time on site giving you verbal advice of what could be moved
where and what couldn't might be invaluable.

| ... single brick party walls

That might be where your soundproofing problems lie.

The decision you have to make is are you doing the work to make a home for
you, or as an investment. If it's as an investment you must do what appeals
to the widest market, and not get personal.

Owain

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 05:22:00 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
"brugnospamsia" randomly hit the
keyboard and produced:

I handnt thought about building regs - I was half planning to fit fire
doors
in any case - prefer the appearance too - though no doubt the buying
public
will require I swap them for cheap panelled (fire-rated) doors if I were
to
sell.

Two things;

1. I would agree with a previous poster, a permanent corridor to the
bathroom would certainly be a better resale prospect.

2. Building Regulations will apply to your work, as at the very least
you are adversely affecting the means of escape in case of fire. On
your existing layout, there is the choice of two separate escape
routes from the bottom of the stairs, whereas in your proposed layout,
you would have to go through the front lounge. If this was where the
fire was, you're screwed. In order to comply, the windows to the
bedrooms would need to have minimum clear openings of 0.33m² and a
minimum clear opening dimension (width or height) of 0.45m, with the
bottom of the opening between 0.8m-1.1m above the floor. You _could_
fit fire doors, but IMHO there's not much point. The greater safety
improvement would be mains-wired, interlinked smoke detectors on both
storeys.

Damn !

I was already starting to realise I'd made a mistake in having the back
bedroom window supplied with top half opening - putting it a little above
1.1 metres ...
The front bedroom window is ideal for escaping through. Does it have to be
both windows ?

Jeremy






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John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:

If you do need a bespoke staircase making up (which is common for an
old house with non-standard ceiling heights), can I strongly recommend
http://www.stairplan.co.uk - they recently made me an excellent
quality (straight) staircase to precisely my specifications, for 380
GBP incl VAT and delivery.

That is quite a good price... Was that just a striaght staircase?

Yup, with no acoutrements.
It's a good website too: I'd never bought or specified a staircase
before, but it takes you through all the necessary steps(!) including
building regs etc, and makes the whole process very straightforward.

David

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:07:43 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
"brugnospamsia" randomly hit the
keyboard and produced:

I was already starting to realise I'd made a mistake in having the back
bedroom window supplied with top half opening - putting it a little above
1.1 metres ...
The front bedroom window is ideal for escaping through. Does it have to be
both windows ?

Unfortunately, yes.
--
Hugo Nebula
'What you have to ask yourself is, "if no-one on the internet wants
a piece of this, just how far from the pack have you strayed?"'

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:07:43 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
"brugnospamsia" randomly hit the
keyboard and produced:

I was already starting to realise I'd made a mistake in having the back
bedroom window supplied with top half opening - putting it a little above
1.1 metres ...
The front bedroom window is ideal for escaping through. Does it have to be
both windows ?

Unfortunately, yes.
--

Luckily the window isn't fully fitted. I haven't had a close look yet, but
I'm hopeful I can refit the window upside down and reverse the hinges and
catches (it's a 50/50 "sash-style" window)
Since it's the same extrusion all the way round the opening I would guess
this is possible .... (??)

.... more incentive to do what I should have done in the first place so I can
get ladders through the house :-)




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"brugnospamsia" wrote
| (I got various quotes for a staircase with a quarter wind top
| and bottom and the cheapest was coming in at 800 ish, but that
| was without fitting. In the end I built my own, but found
| that at least half the work was in the fitting with that sort
| of stair)
| oops !
| I'm hoping mine will be a bit cheaper due to its being simpler and
| fitting between two walls and will almost certainly be carpeted
| rather than varnished - though I may go for real wood treads to
| allow for the vagaries of taste ....

There's what looks like a good book on Handrailing and Staircases on ebay at
the moment for a few quid, 1920s so constructionally in keeping with your
age of property.

Re taste, for rental/resale I would suggest good laminate throughout the
ground floor, neutral fitted carpet on stairs and upstairs. Nice vinyl or
tiles in bathroom.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"brugnospamsia" wrote
snip

You probably do not require fire doors in a two-storey property which is
not
a House of Multiple Occupation. However you must consider building regs.
Your property, if done up, will probably appeal to first time buyers who
will be frightened off by any irregularities in permissions.

| Formal dining for me is a very low priority.

And for most prospective purchasers/renters in this type of property,
which
is why I suggested a kitchen-diner.

| I currently plan to move most
| of the kitchen functions into the front room.

That will mean however that your staircase (escape route from upper floor)
passes through a kitchen, which may be unacceptable.

I suppose it depends how much of the kitchen is in there - I was thinking of
limiting the hardware to "breakfast-type activities ". I'm loathe to lose
the hob in the kitchen proper which has a mega powerful cooker hood blasting
up an old flue - you could almost have a barbecue in there (and my wok
cooking frequently resembles that :-)
In any case if I was to sell I would quickly do a switch around.

I will certainly be taking on board some of your ideas - but I'm a bit
concerned by the extra landing area in your scheme - something I was aiming
to minimise.

I do have some ideas about extending the kitchen by reworking a concrete
"shed" I half built 10 years ago ....


| Coming up with a worthwhile kitchen for resale purposes will be a real
| challenge with the existing one being only 6 ft x 8 ft 6" internally.
| I can see I'll have to have to plan for a future "selling layout".

Hence knocking through and making kitchen-diner, otherwise it will feel
like
a scullery. On the upside, because it's a small kitchen you can use nicer
units and tiles for that 'wow' factor without it costing as much as it
would
in a bigger room.

| Sample rough-up diagram is at (5.3kB)
| http://www.stirlingcity.co.uk/ofc1/houselayout.png
| thanks mate ! - looks great but it's a bit more rad than I had in mind -
| the house is a centre valley

buggers any hope of a loft con then.

| so I can see structural engineers and tonnes
| of steel involved here !

I kept the bedroom centre walls where they were :-) A couple of hours of
an
engineer's time on site giving you verbal advice of what could be moved
where and what couldn't might be invaluable.

| ... single brick party walls

That might be where your soundproofing problems lie.

The decision you have to make is are you doing the work to make a home for
you, or as an investment. If it's as an investment you must do what
appeals
to the widest market, and not get personal.

Owain





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| I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the
| stairs in between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that
| you have to walk through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom -
| unless you halve the floor area by making a corridor around the edge
| - thus spoiling the better bedroom.
| http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

Looking deeper into the problems of this small house, the existing stairs are unlikely to comply with current regs, so the proposed stairs to be compliant wouldn't fit. You may be able to get approval from the planning department without which you will come unstuck when you sell.

Have you considered a loft extension?

"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

| I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the
| stairs in between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that
| you have to walk through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom -
| unless you halve the floor area by making a corridor around the
edge
| - thus spoiling the better bedroom.
| http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

Looking deeper into the problems of this small house, the existing
stairs are unlikely to comply with current regs, so the proposed stairs
to be compliant wouldn't fit. You may be able to get approval from the
planning department without which you will come unstuck when you sell.

current stairs seem to be just about ok at about 42.4 degrees and the new
staircase has an extra foot to play with ...

Have you considered a loft extension?

centre valley roof :-(

http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreengiant/ruin.jpg

this is the rear of a spookily similar house - photo taken at turn of last
century a mile or two from here mine is in slightly better condition ;-)


============================



--
Paul Barker


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brugnospamsia wrote:

oops !

I'm hoping mine will be a bit cheaper due to its being simpler and fitting
between two walls and will almost certainly be carpeted rather than
varnished - though I may go for real wood treads to allow for the vagaries
of taste ....

Since yours is a striaght run then it ought to be much cheaper (the link
David posted showed that sort of thing starting at 200 quid), and
fitting is easy. With my one it had two turns which greatly adds to the
complexity, it also means the fitting is more complex because rather
than resting on the ground and the top landing (rather like a ladder),
it needs to be fixed to the wall at one side, and then supported by the
newel posts at the other.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:17:25 GMT, "brugnospamsia"
wrote:

Dear Group,

as threatened in my previous post, here's another ...

I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the stairs in
between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that you have to walk
through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom - unless you halve the floor
area by making a corridor around the edge - thus spoiling the better
bedroom.

http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

Since the stair treads and risers need replacing anyway (though with luck
this would cost little more than the price of a sheet of MDF and one of
plywood), it has been suggested I might have new stairs made and fitted in
reverse at an estimated cost of at least £500.
In the process I also get improved use of the alcoves for storage ...

I can't predict whether I would be looking to sell or rent the house any
time soon, but I wonder if someone could please take a look at my sketch and
tell me if what I am suggesting is an improvement and "worth" the expense.

thanks in anticipation

Jeremy

I used to have one of these houses, we sold when the first kid came
along, and we struggled to sell it to families, a single guy got it in
the end .........

Sorting out the access problem is a great idea .........

Rick

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:17:25 GMT, "brugnospamsia"
wrote:

snip


I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the stairs
in
between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that you have to walk
through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom - unless you halve the
floor
area by making a corridor around the edge - thus spoiling the better
bedroom.

http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

snip

I can't predict whether I would be looking to sell or rent the house any
time soon, but I wonder if someone could please take a look at my sketch
and
tell me if what I am suggesting is an improvement and "worth" the expense.



I used to have one of these houses, we sold when the first kid came
along, and we struggled to sell it to families, a single guy got it in
the end .........

Sorting out the access problem is a great idea .........

My neighbours crammed 3 children in theirs !

They kept the stairs and hall wall in the original position, split the front
bedroom, put a Velux in the new room with no window and put a corridor
around the back bedroom - not sure who had which room - the two boys, the
girl, or mum and dad - all crammed into three tiny bedrooms.....

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:17:25 GMT, "brugnospamsia"
wrote:

Dear Group,

as threatened in my previous post, here's another ...

I have a rather inconveniently laid out victorian terrace with the stairs in
between the two rooms upstairs and down which means that you have to walk
through the back bedroom to get to the bathroom - unless you halve the floor
area by making a corridor around the edge - thus spoiling the better
bedroom.

http://uk.geocities.com/gentlegreeng...outchanges.JPG

Since the stair treads and risers need replacing anyway (though with luck
this would cost little more than the price of a sheet of MDF and one of
plywood), it has been suggested I might have new stairs made and fitted in
reverse at an estimated cost of at least £500.
In the process I also get improved use of the alcoves for storage ...

I can't predict whether I would be looking to sell or rent the house any
time soon, but I wonder if someone could please take a look at my sketch and
tell me if what I am suggesting is an improvement and "worth" the expense.

thanks in anticipation

Jeremy



One solution is to make the 2nd bedroom long and thin, ie the current
bacthroom, and the back of the existing bedroom, making the bathroom
the front of the existing bedroom.

Rick








---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.823 / Virus Database: 561 - Release Date: 26/12/2004

(Use it in conjunction with CWShredder, AdAware and SpybotS&D -in that
order, to completely cleanse your machine daily.)

You shouldn`t need to do it more than monthly if you lock the system down
sufficiently in other ways (firewall, virus checker updated daily,
different web browser - and if poss, a different email program !)

If its of any use to anyone, i`ve got setup instructions in as near to
plain english as I could manage for Spybot S&D he

http://www.coreutilities.co.uk

I link to the other files mentioned too btw ;-)

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