Looking through google the general concensus seems to be that they are ok
for a reasomably priced kitchen.

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the doors?

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on edging
edging strip that matches the doors?

Any recomendations on electric touch control hobs, double built under ovens
(stainless steel style) and integrated dishwashers? (we're looking to spend
£1500 max on the 3)

Also can a standard under counter fridge be placed in the same space that a
built in under counter fridge would occupy, later being replaced with an
integrated model?

Many thanks

Jaime

jaime wrote:
Looking through google the general concensus seems to be that they are ok
for a reasomably priced kitchen.

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the doors?

Many thanks

Jaime


We fitted a B&Q kitchen last year and it is fine. However, finding
doors (we used their Beech effect doors which are now discontinued) in
good condition was not easy. We originally had them delivered but found
that more than half of the twenty doors were damaged, either because of
poor manufacturing or being stored/handled badly. We ended up buying
them in-store and opening the boxes before buying them. You could
guarantee that to get a good door you had to open more than one box,
quite often three. Sometimes the boxes that looked like they had been
run over by their fork lifts were OK and the boxes that were in pristine
condition were damaged!

Having said that, once we had a set of good doors they were fine and
still are a year later. I would buy and fit a B&Q kitchen again.

Andy

"Andy P" wrote in message
...
jaime wrote:
Looking through google the general concensus seems to be that they are
ok
for a reasomably priced kitchen.

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the
doors?

Many thanks

Jaime


We fitted a B&Q kitchen last year and it is fine. However, finding
doors (we used their Beech effect doors which are now discontinued) in
good condition was not easy. We originally had them delivered but found
that more than half of the twenty doors were damaged, either because of
poor manufacturing or being stored/handled badly. We ended up buying
them in-store and opening the boxes before buying them. You could
guarantee that to get a good door you had to open more than one box,
quite often three. Sometimes the boxes that looked like they had been
run over by their fork lifts were OK and the boxes that were in pristine
condition were damaged!

Having said that, once we had a set of good doors they were fine and
still are a year later. I would buy and fit a B&Q kitchen again.

Andy



I will eventually be probably fitting one of their kitchens in my own home -
the construction of them is much the same as you will find with any of the
'budget' suppliers - the raw carcasses may not be the prettiest things in
the world, but they do they job just fine.

With careful selection of doors, handles, appliances and most of all - good
installation, you can get a very good looking kitchen for very little money.
Buying appliances on the internet, you can find some very very good deals (I
used to have a source for Bosch built-in fridges for around £230!).

Alex

p.s. I've had exactly the same experience as Andy with the doors

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the
doors?

Get the door closing dampers (or whatever they're called). Vastly superior
to those horrible looking stick on bumpers.

Any recomendations on electric touch control hobs, double built under
ovens
(stainless steel style) and integrated dishwashers? (we're looking to
spend
£1500 max on the 3)

Merloni do a good fully integrated dishwasher for around the 270 quid mark.
I managed to get mine Ariston badged, although I believe they've dropped
that brand for kitchen appliances and they are all badged Indesit now. I've
got one and it is excellent.

Also can a standard under counter fridge be placed in the same space that
a
built in under counter fridge would occupy, later being replaced with an
integrated model?

Yes. However, you must buy the door/carcase for the integrated fridge and
store until needed. The only way you can guarantee the range you want will
be available when you decide to upgrade, is to have already bought it. Also,
you might not want to cut the plinth to size until the under counter fridge
is in. Alternatively, you could overbuy the plinth and replace it when
required.

Also, undercounter integrated fridges are considerably smaller (and less
practical) than free standing types. Are you sure you only want a tiny
fridge? If there is space in the design, a tall integrated fridge/freezer
with the appropriate split is normally a more practical proposition. We went
for a 70/30 split, which gives a freezer up to the worksurface and fridge
from there to the ceiling. We never run out of room in that.

Christian.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:42 +0100, "Alex"
wrote:



p.s. I've had exactly the same experience as Andy with the doors


And me, several of the Beech doors I bought had indent marks even
though they came in plenty of cardboard

C

"jaime" wrote in message
...

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses
matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable
idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on edging
edging strip that matches the doors?

Yes - it is feasible to use the iron on edging strip. We did it on our B&Q
kitchen and, although it is a PITA to do, it improved the finish by 100%

Christian McArdle wrote:
Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the
doors?

Get the door closing dampers (or whatever they're called). Vastly superior
to those horrible looking stick on bumpers.

Any recomendations on electric touch control hobs, double built under
ovens
(stainless steel style) and integrated dishwashers? (we're looking to
spend
£1500 max on the 3)

Merloni do a good fully integrated dishwasher for around the 270 quid mark.
I managed to get mine Ariston badged, although I believe they've dropped
that brand for kitchen appliances and they are all badged Indesit now. I've
got one and it is excellent.

We have an integrated Baumatic dishwasher which seems to have Merloni
electronics in it (they have Merloni written on them anyway). It's not
been very good so far though it's been fixed under warranty each time.
It *seems* to be OK now but only time will tell.

FWIW I'm not sure I like integrated appliances in general. An
integrated dsishwasher has to have somewhat odd (and confusing for new
users) controls. An 'ordinary' dishwasher is usually much easier to
understand and drive. An integrated dishwasher also suffers from
having a (probably) very heavy door which puts much more strain on the
hinges than a conventional dishwasher door. (OK, it's got a
counterbalancing spring but it's still heavy and the inertia bangs on
the hinge stops when it's opened).


[snip]

Also, undercounter integrated fridges are considerably smaller (and less
practical) than free standing types. Are you sure you only want a tiny
fridge? If there is space in the design, a tall integrated fridge/freezer
with the appropriate split is normally a more practical proposition. We went
for a 70/30 split, which gives a freezer up to the worksurface and fridge
from there to the ceiling. We never run out of room in that.

As above, why go for integrated? We have a lovely big tall fridge
which looks exactly like what it is, a fridge. I don't think it
detracts from the appearance of the kitchen at all, it's a working
kitchen for heavens ake. If the fridge looks like a fridge it's
easier to find!

--
Chris Green

"Chris" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:42 +0100, "Alex"
wrote:



p.s. I've had exactly the same experience as Andy with the doors


And me, several of the Beech doors I bought had indent marks even
though they came in plenty of cardboard


Where you both able to return the damaged doors to a store for swap/refund?

Thanks

Jaime

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the
doors?

Get the door closing dampers (or whatever they're called). Vastly superior
to those horrible looking stick on bumpers.

Any recomendations on electric touch control hobs, double built under
ovens
(stainless steel style) and integrated dishwashers? (we're looking to
spend
£1500 max on the 3)

Merloni do a good fully integrated dishwasher for around the 270 quid
mark.
I managed to get mine Ariston badged, although I believe they've dropped
that brand for kitchen appliances and they are all badged Indesit now.
I've
got one and it is excellent.

Also can a standard under counter fridge be placed in the same space
that
a
built in under counter fridge would occupy, later being replaced with an
integrated model?

Yes. However, you must buy the door/carcase for the integrated fridge and
store until needed. The only way you can guarantee the range you want will
be available when you decide to upgrade, is to have already bought it.
Also,
you might not want to cut the plinth to size until the under counter
fridge
is in. Alternatively, you could overbuy the plinth and replace it when
required.

Also, undercounter integrated fridges are considerably smaller (and less
practical) than free standing types. Are you sure you only want a tiny
fridge? If there is space in the design, a tall integrated fridge/freezer
with the appropriate split is normally a more practical proposition. We
went
for a 70/30 split, which gives a freezer up to the worksurface and fridge
from there to the ceiling. We never run out of room in that.


Thanks for the reply, the kitchen doesn't lend itself to having full height
larder units due to the layout. I was just thinking that having the
integrated look would look better if we came to sell the house at some point
in the future. The fridge that we have is almost brand new and thus
hopefully wont want replacing for quite some time.

Jaime

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses
matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on
expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable
idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on
edging
edging strip that matches the doors?

Yes - it is feasible to use the iron on edging strip. We did it on our B&Q
kitchen and, although it is a PITA to do, it improved the finish by 100%


Thanks thats reassuring to know. However has it stood up well over time or
has any of it needed reapplying/replacing?

Jaime

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:22:51 +0100, "jaime"
wrote:


"Chris" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:42 +0100, "Alex"
wrote:



p.s. I've had exactly the same experience as Andy with the doors


And me, several of the Beech doors I bought had indent marks even
though they came in plenty of cardboard


Where you both able to return the damaged doors to a store for swap/refund?

Thanks

Jaime


I used a couple of their solid oak doors for a cupboard for my office.
I didn't bother to open the packets, but discovered that one one there
was a large contrast in colour between two boards that had been edge
jointed to form the centre panel.

That was returned and replaced and a voucher for £5 received to cover
the inconvenience.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"jaime" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:42 +0100, "Alex"
wrote:



p.s. I've had exactly the same experience as Andy with the doors


And me, several of the Beech doors I bought had indent marks even
though they came in plenty of cardboard


Where you both able to return the damaged doors to a store for
swap/refund?

Thanks

Jaime


I am one of those assholes who opens boxes in store So I had no need to,
but for all B&Qs faults - I have never had any problem with anything being
refunded there.

Alex

In article , shaun
writes
"jaime" wrote in message
. ..

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses
matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable
idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on edging
edging strip that matches the doors?

Yes - it is feasible to use the iron on edging strip. We did it on our B&Q
kitchen and, although it is a PITA to do, it improved the finish by 100%

We put in a B&Q "solid beech" kitchen last year, and I was going to do
this on ours, but in the event I decided not to bother as the doors line
up well enough that you can't see the fronts of the carcasses.

The doors are very light coloured though, it may be more obvious with
dark doors.
--
Tim Mitchell

jaime wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:42 +0100, "Alex"
wrote:



p.s. I've had exactly the same experience as Andy with the doors


And me, several of the Beech doors I bought had indent marks even
though they came in plenty of cardboard



Where you both able to return the damaged doors to a store for swap/refund?

Thanks

Jaime


No problem with refunds except for the queuing, which really bugs me.
Why should I have to wait an age to have a problem that is not my fault
resolved? I don't mind if I'm returning something just because I want to.

Andy

"jaime" wrote in message .. .
Looking through google the general concensus seems to be that they are ok
for a reasomably priced kitchen.

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the doors?

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on edging
edging strip that matches the doors?


We're very pleased with ours.

As others have said, buy the damped door bumpers and use the edging
strip. I have beech effect and have had absolutely no problem with
quality. I ordered on the web and everything was delivered on time
with no shortages or damage. Biggest problem was disposing of the
pallette they delivered it all on.

Also, I would recommend buying the premium drawer boxes. These allow
horizontal and vertical adjustment of the drawer fromts for (near)
perfect alignment.

One other problem was foolishly putting a spoon into a jug of boiling
custard fresh out of the microwave. After the resulting explosion, hot
custard dribbled down a door and has left a 2cm bubble in the foil
laminate (no injury to humans, thankfully, but it was instructive for
our 11yr old to learn from his Dad's mistake!)

MBQ

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:36:36 +0100, Andy P wrote:




No problem with refunds except for the queuing, which really bugs me.
Why should I have to wait an age to have a problem that is not my fault
resolved? I don't mind if I'm returning something just because I want to.

Andy

Ask them for something for your trouble.

At B&Q it often results in a voucher for about 10% of the value of the
product if you ask.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
"jaime" wrote in message
.. .
Looking through google the general concensus seems to be that they are
ok
for a reasomably priced kitchen.

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the
doors?

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses
matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on
expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable
idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on
edging
edging strip that matches the doors?


We're very pleased with ours.

As others have said, buy the damped door bumpers and use the edging
strip. I have beech effect and have had absolutely no problem with
quality. I ordered on the web and everything was delivered on time
with no shortages or damage. Biggest problem was disposing of the
pallette they delivered it all on.

Also, I would recommend buying the premium drawer boxes. These allow
horizontal and vertical adjustment of the drawer fromts for (near)
perfect alignment.


Thanks for the replies, we were looking at going for the premium draw boxes
and the door bumpers . Shall now make sure that we defently get them.

Jaime

FWIW I'm not sure I like integrated appliances in general. An
integrated dsishwasher has to have somewhat odd (and confusing for new
users) controls.

I find pressing a quality tactile button twice to select the programme and
then shutting the door considerably easier than revolving one of those
horrible motorised switches to the start position (which is usually half way
between two of the markings and will only go round one way, causing you to
attempt to find the exact position about four times).

(OK, it's got a counterbalancing spring but it's still heavy and
the inertia bangs on the hinge stops when it's opened).

The counterbalance is adjustable and must be set to precisely match the door
weight to prevent the door opening or closing by itself. Obviously, it can't
be factory set as door panel weights vary considerably. It should balance
perfectly in position and not bang open or shut.

As above, why go for integrated? We have a lovely big tall fridge
which looks exactly like what it is, a fridge.

That depends if you think big white appliances look cheap and crap. I do,
but many don't.

Christian.

I was just thinking that having the integrated look would look better if
we
came to sell the house at some point in the future.

Probably when you move, just point out that you have the carcase and door
for an integrated appliance if the purchaser so desires to obtain one. I
doubt you'd make the money back actually fitting one, though, unless your
current new fridge is very old by then, but if you find an integrated
appliance enthusiast, they'll be happy knowing they can remove the white
lump for just the cost of the fridge.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
I was just thinking that having the integrated look would look better if
we
came to sell the house at some point in the future.

Probably when you move, just point out that you have the carcase and door
for an integrated appliance if the purchaser so desires to obtain one. I
doubt you'd make the money back actually fitting one, though, unless your
current new fridge is very old by then, but if you find an integrated
appliance enthusiast, they'll be happy knowing they can remove the white
lump for just the cost of the fridge.


That sounds like a very good idea, thanks.

Jaime

Christian McArdle wrote:
FWIW I'm not sure I like integrated appliances in general. An
integrated dsishwasher has to have somewhat odd (and confusing for new
users) controls.

I find pressing a quality tactile button twice to select the programme and
then shutting the door considerably easier than revolving one of those
horrible motorised switches to the start position (which is usually half way
between two of the markings and will only go round one way, causing you to
attempt to find the exact position about four times).

Modern non-integrated dishwasher have nice buttons too. The
difference is that you don't have to second guess what you did before
you closed the door, it tells you what it's doing. The problem we've
had is that with a delayed start how do you tell you've set the delay
correctly? Also how does anyone know if the machine is running or not
if it's at a quiet point in the cycle?


(OK, it's got a counterbalancing spring but it's still heavy and
the inertia bangs on the hinge stops when it's opened).

The counterbalance is adjustable and must be set to precisely match the door
weight to prevent the door opening or closing by itself. Obviously, it can't
be factory set as door panel weights vary considerably. It should balance
perfectly in position and not bang open or shut.

Yes, it's balanced but the door still has a lot of inertia (i.e.
mass), when it swings down it bangs on those hinges whether you like
it or not. A non-integrated door simply has much less mass and
doesn't do so much damage.


As above, why go for integrated? We have a lovely big tall fridge
which looks exactly like what it is, a fridge.

That depends if you think big white appliances look cheap and crap. I do,
but many don't.

.... don't have to be white.

Do you make the hob look as if it's part of the worktop? Or make the
cupboards look like the walls? Why not?

--
Chris Green

wrote in message
...
Yes, it's balanced but the door still has a lot of inertia (i.e.
mass), when it swings down it bangs on those hinges whether you like
it or not. A non-integrated door simply has much less mass and
doesn't do so much damage.

pedant mode

you seem to be confusing inertia, mass and momentum here

/pedant mode

... don't have to be white.

Indeed. The one non-integrated appliance I'm planning is the cooker. A black
Rangemaster Classic 90, which should fill a nice hole in the old fireplace
(actually the new fireplace since we had the dimensions changed rather
dramatically). White goods (or grey) would have looked awful in the kitchen,
which is based on oak, slate and granite. In a more modern context, they can
look fine.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote
| As above, why go for integrated? We have a lovely big tall
| fridge which looks exactly like what it is, a fridge.
| That depends if you think big white appliances look cheap and
| crap. I do, but many don't.

Cheap big white appliance + car spray paint + masking tape = very expensive
looking appliance. Works fine with things that don't get hot and don't have
lots of intricate bits, so perhaps not for cookers.

Owain

"jaime" wrote in message
...

Looking at various kitchens the ones where the front of the carcuses
matches
the doors look much better, however these are only avaliable on
expensive
ranges or on a small selection of say the mfi range. Is it a feasiable
idea
to simply edge the front edge of all the units with the B&Q iron on
edging
edging strip that matches the doors?

Yes - it is feasible to use the iron on edging strip. We did it on our
B&Q
kitchen and, although it is a PITA to do, it improved the finish by 100%


Thanks thats reassuring to know. However has it stood up well over time or
has any of it needed reapplying/replacing?

Was done 13 months ago and there is one very small piece on one of the wall
hung cupboards that i've managed to catch and pull off. It was one of the
first bits that I put on so i'm thinking I didn't use enough heat to melt
the glue....

Agreed - it would have looked dreadful with the white fronts on the units
showing.

In message , Christian
McArdle writes
FWIW I'm not sure I like integrated appliances in general. An
integrated dsishwasher has to have somewhat odd (and confusing for new
users) controls.

I find pressing a quality tactile button twice to select the programme
and then shutting the door considerably easier than revolving one of
those horrible motorised switches to the start position (which is
usually half way between two of the markings and will only go round one
way, causing you to attempt to find the exact position about four times).

Whether you do one or other depends on more than whether the item is
built-in or not. Our Bosch d/w requires the pressing of one button once
for it run on its default setting.

--
dave @ stejonda

"jaime" wrote in message
...
Looking through google the general concensus seems to be that they are ok
for a reasomably priced kitchen.

Is there any reason we should avoid them for either the units or the
doors?

No - but have a look at the Wickes range (not the takeaways) provided you
can wait a month. Door quality is a little better IMO.


Any recomendations on electric touch control hobs,

If you like Halogens - Stoves do three widths at fair prices through the
Internet. Not the best name but a good product.

Whether you do one or other depends on more than whether the item is
built-in or not.

Obviously there are always counter examples, particularly in the higher end
makes. However, the majority of fully integrated dishwashers have electronic
controls, whilst the majority of semi integrated and free standing models
have motorised switches.

Christian.

No - but have a look at the Wickes range (not the takeaways) provided you
can wait a month. Door quality is a little better IMO.

Yes, I got mine from MFI. No problems at all with quality on any components.
The carcases come with brown fronts instead of white, so you can get away
without using the iron on edging, although doing so would still provide some
improvement as the woodgrain might beat straight brown.

Christian.

Neil Jones wrote:

wrote in message
...
Yes, it's balanced but the door still has a lot of inertia (i.e.
mass), when it swings down it bangs on those hinges whether you like
it or not. A non-integrated door simply has much less mass and
doesn't do so much damage.

pedant mode

you seem to be confusing inertia, mass and momentum here

Inertia and mass are basically the same in this context. Momentum is
a consequence of moving mass.

Whatever I'm confusing a heavy door, even if perfectly
counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than a
light one will.

--
Chris Green

Whatever I'm confusing a heavy door, even if perfectly
counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than a
light one will.

Mine seems quite well damped. It basically has to be pulled/pushed all the
way down. If you let go, it stops fairly rapidly rather than bouncing at the
end.

Christian.

wrote in message
...
Neil Jones wrote:

wrote in message
...
Yes, it's balanced but the door still has a lot of inertia (i.e.
mass), when it swings down it bangs on those hinges whether you
like
it or not. A non-integrated door simply has much less mass and
doesn't do so much damage.

pedant mode

you seem to be confusing inertia, mass and momentum here

Inertia and mass are basically the same in this context. Momentum is
a consequence of moving mass.

Inertia is a concept. Mass is a measureable property.


Whatever I'm confusing a heavy door, even if perfectly
counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than a
light one will.


I'm not at all sure this is so - it depends as much (or more) on the
speed the door is moving at, as well as the mass involved.

Also, presumably the manufacturers of the machine will specify a maximum
door weight the hinges are designed to support. A non-integrated
appliance will have a door with known weight and can use the lightest
(read cheapest) hinges which will do the job.

Neil Jones wrote:

pedant mode

you seem to be confusing inertia, mass and momentum here

Inertia and mass are basically the same in this context. Momentum is
a consequence of moving mass.

Inertia is a concept. Mass is a measureable property.

So?


Whatever I'm confusing a heavy door, even if perfectly
counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than a
light one will.


I'm not at all sure this is so - it depends as much (or more) on the
speed the door is moving at, as well as the mass involved.

Well yes, that's stating the obvious too. But if I push the door down
to the end stop at (approximately) the same speed which would seem to
be a reasonable assumption then the heavy door will bang the endstops
harder.

Also, presumably the manufacturers of the machine will specify a maximum
door weight the hinges are designed to support. A non-integrated
appliance will have a door with known weight and can use the lightest
(read cheapest) hinges which will do the job.

Maybe! In practice I suspect they're all the same (i.e. integrated
mechanics are similar to non-integrated) simply for cheapness sake.

Certainly our Baumatic integrated doesn't have any specification for
the weight of the door that I can find and I'm not at all convinced
that the hinges are up to the job with a wooden panel on it. I have
to say I'm not all that impressed with Baumatic in general (the
dishwasher anyway) so maybe other makes are better. However I still
fail to see how even brilliant design can get over the inherent
problem of having no external indicators at all to tell you what's
going on (or isn't).

--
Chris Green

Christian McArdle wrote:
Whether you do one or other depends on more than whether the item is
built-in or not.

Obviously there are always counter examples, particularly in the higher end
makes. However, the majority of fully integrated dishwashers have electronic
controls, whilst the majority of semi integrated and free standing models
have motorised switches.

But the integrated controls however they are implemented can never
overcome the major disadvantage of lack of display. Having bought an
integrated dishwasher for our current kitchen I certainly won't do so
again. It can't tell you whether you (or someone else) has turned it
on properly, it can't tell you if it's going to run in some hours
time, it can't tell you that it's finished. In a household with
several people who have independent timetables an integrated
dishwasher is a real nuisance for these reasons.

It's also difficult for someone who isn't familiar with it to use it as
an extra button has to be pressed just before closing it to (finally)
say "do what I've set up on the switches". This is basically
necessary to cope with the case where someone opens the dishwasher
while it's running (or in the delay period before running) to allow
then to hit a button which means "carry on what you were set up to do"
before closing it again. Anyone who doesn't know about this will
simply wait forever with the dishwasher doing nothing - it's happened
several times in our household.

--
Chris Green

wrote in message
...
Neil Jones wrote:

pedant mode

you seem to be confusing inertia, mass and momentum here

Inertia and mass are basically the same in this context. Momentum
is
a consequence of moving mass.

Inertia is a concept. Mass is a measureable property.

So?

So, I pointed out I was being pedantic.


Whatever I'm confusing a heavy door, even if perfectly
counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than
a
light one will.


I'm not at all sure this is so - it depends as much (or more) on the
speed the door is moving at, as well as the mass involved.

Well yes, that's stating the obvious too. But if I push the door down
to the end stop at (approximately) the same speed which would seem to
be a reasonable assumption then the heavy door will bang the endstops
harder.

If you try to break it I'm sure you could. But that's not the same as "a
heavy door, even if perfectly counterbalanced, will still bang against
its endstops harder than a light one will."


Also, presumably the manufacturers of the machine will specify a
maximum
door weight the hinges are designed to support. A non-integrated
appliance will have a door with known weight and can use the
lightest
(read cheapest) hinges which will do the job.

Maybe! In practice I suspect they're all the same (i.e. integrated
mechanics are similar to non-integrated) simply for cheapness sake.

Yes, that might be the case - I haven't looked at enough hinges to say.
But if I were the manufacturer of a range of appliances I doubt I'd put
the same hinge on all my doors.

I suppose it comes down to whether it's cheaper to always use the same
hinge (from an inventory point of view) than to purchase heavier duty
hinges when lighter ones would have done the job.


Certainly our Baumatic integrated doesn't have any specification for
the weight of the door that I can find and I'm not at all convinced
that the hinges are up to the job with a wooden panel on it. I have
to say I'm not all that impressed with Baumatic in general (the
dishwasher anyway) so maybe other makes are better. However I still
fail to see how even brilliant design can get over the inherent
problem of having no external indicators at all to tell you what's
going on (or isn't).


I have an AEG integrated dishwasher and it specifies a maximum of 10kg
for the door panel. It's incredibly quiet so I can barely tell whether
it's on, even when standing next to it, but do I really need to know?

It's also difficult for someone who isn't familiar with it to use it as
an extra button has to be pressed just before closing it to (finally)
say "do what I've set up on the switches".

Mine you just close it again. No need to hit a "carry on" button. To check
the display, simply open it a crack and close it. It is also good for
sticking an extra bit of cutlery in if the programme has already started.
The pump stops when the door is open and starts again when closed. There is
no start button.

Christian.

Neil Jones wrote:


Certainly our Baumatic integrated doesn't have any specification for
the weight of the door that I can find and I'm not at all convinced
that the hinges are up to the job with a wooden panel on it. I have
to say I'm not all that impressed with Baumatic in general (the
dishwasher anyway) so maybe other makes are better. However I still
fail to see how even brilliant design can get over the inherent
problem of having no external indicators at all to tell you what's
going on (or isn't).


I have an AEG integrated dishwasher and it specifies a maximum of 10kg
for the door panel. It's incredibly quiet so I can barely tell whether
it's on, even when standing next to it, but do I really need to know?

Er, yes, for a couple of reasons:-
You want to know if it's finished the wash, on an integrated
dishwasher you can't tell.

Someone else needs to know if they can put some dishes into the
dishwasher, how do they tell what stage it's at?

--
Chris Green

Christian McArdle wrote:
It's also difficult for someone who isn't familiar with it to use it as
an extra button has to be pressed just before closing it to (finally)
say "do what I've set up on the switches".

Mine you just close it again. No need to hit a "carry on" button. To check
the display, simply open it a crack and close it. It is also good for
sticking an extra bit of cutlery in if the programme has already started.
The pump stops when the door is open and starts again when closed. There is
no start button.

So how do you stop it? On ours the program stays at the default
program and you hit the "Carry on/start" button before closing the
door to get it to wash. If you open the door it stops and stays
stopped unless you hit the "Carry on" button before closing the door.

Without the "Carry on" button you'd have to do something else to
select a program or say "start" before closing the door, otherwise it
would start every time you closed the door wouldn't it?

--
Chris Green

wrote in message
...
Neil Jones wrote:


I have an AEG integrated dishwasher and it specifies a maximum of
10kg
for the door panel. It's incredibly quiet so I can barely tell
whether
it's on, even when standing next to it, but do I really need to
know?

Er, yes, for a couple of reasons:-
You want to know if it's finished the wash, on an integrated
dishwasher you can't tell.

Someone else needs to know if they can put some dishes into the
dishwasher, how do they tell what stage it's at?


Well, these are reasons *you* want to know whether it's on or not - not
reasons that *I* want to know :-)

If I put my dishwasher on in late in the evening (usually the case) it
will have finished by the next morning when I will unload it and start
to refill. If I put it on in the early evening it makes a noise to tell
me when it's finished.

If someone else has put the machine on and I don't notice and so I try
to open it, the lock needs extra force to open compared with when the
machine is off or finished. If I just yank it open anyway (and a couple
of visitors have done this) they will realise their mistake and close it
up again. They didn't get soaking wet, the dishes still came out clean.

If you really *need* to know what stage it has got to you might need to
hack into the circuitry to power a couple of neons for an outboard
display, or maybe you could add a simple 'meter' to the dishwasher's
supply to indicate when the machine is drawing power.

Neil

Having had experience of fitting a B&Q kitchen for a friend I wouldn't
recommend them at all. They offer poor service and a poor product. Cheap and
nasty would be my description.